Mini 803 - Pale Moon Risin' (Over!)

[camn]

Well, KMD.

I have some things to speak to you about...I almost forgot this was the game with you in it!

You followed Zazie's game after you died, NO?

(serious question)

[Kmd4390]

I followed it for the most part. Not as closely as I would have if I was still alive. I was basically reading to see what happened (who was lynched/killed), but not to scumhunt. And to see her flavor.

Why?

[LlamaFluff]

Deadlines are a week, and its obvious im going to have to claim within the next few days either way so I will right now, so there is time to move a wagon with sufficent discussion instead of some last minute scramble.

Im called a 'Hedge Wizard', im basically a lazy magician who each night can focus his powers on one player, which benifits them. After enough questions, the mod said that I am basically an inventor that does not know what his inventions do.

Last night I targeted myk, given that I wasnt sure which one of zilla and porkens would be killed. I figured it would be dependent on if scum had a roleblocker or not, and I decided not to gamble on it.

People in the family guy mini should remember this role. Its like reborns, but I just dont get to name my inventions. Myk should be able to confirm something happened though.

Also im a little surprised kmd never noticed that I was playing to my power role meta a bit (which is basically just playing really shitty). This is standard play for me whenever I get anything thats non-vanilla really.

Breadcrumbs were

This is Family Guy mafia all over again...

but its a mini... family guy mini

reborn

Reborn was the player in family guy mini with the role I have. Odd but blatant crumb.

Also what questions am I missing according to you except the fairly obvious "Who was I thinking was scum?"

Well, let's see:

FOS: LlamaFluff, ZazieR for trying to get Porkens to claim; what good does that do from a town standpoint? Especially from Llama who says Porkens is likely town.

Porkens backs this point later and says he would also like to hear your response.

I would like to try and get him to commit to if there is flavor or not in roles. Would someone be "day vig" or "archer", "inventor" or something completely off the wall. I am pretty sure it would be uniform one or the other for all roles.

Me basically claiming inventor again, except saying my rolename is an oddity. Also this was my entire reasoning behind wanting porkens to claim. I was almost hoping he would say something that would either confirm him as town to all the other PRs, or snag him if he was anti-town. Zilla picked up on this one actually.

Tomorrow I will get to rereading

[Kmd4390]

Also im a little surprised kmd never noticed that I was playing to my power role meta a bit (which is basically just playing really shitty). This is standard play for me whenever I get anything thats non-vanilla really.

I didn't see you do this as a vig or as a JOAT.

Why did you choose Mykonian for your invention?

Unvote

. You aren't confirmed, but there's no reason to lynch you just yet. I want Myko to confirm that he got an item. And I want to point out that inventor isn't always a town role.

Vote Camn

. My next suspect.

[LlamaFluff]

I didn't see you do this as a vig or as a JOAT.

I always just fail with any power role. I think I spend too much time during they day trying to figure out how to use my role and not enough scumhunting.

Why did you choose Mykonian for your invention?

Unvote

. You aren't confirmed, but there's no reason to lynch you just yet. I want Myko to confirm that he got an item. And I want to point out that inventor isn't always a town role.

Already said this but, it was either myk, porkens or zilla. I figured if there was a scum RB, that porkens would be killed, if there was none, zilla would be killed. So I went with my third most likely town figuring that the chance of them getting killed was almost zero.

Also im not sure its an item, I am able to "focus engery" on player. I was just told its most like a inventor who doesnt know what his items do

[camn]

Hmm. I don't get it, but I buy it.

But KMD..

...
I missed this before (stupid drinking!) but now I see you DID follow Zazie's game!

Well, I'm not sure what the hell VP was doing. May have imitated Mufasa in the Zazie-modded game because Camn said it was a good move. Now thanks to him, we have a claimed doc out. VP is definitely a better player than that.

so please.. in light of that game, explain this:

I'm the doc.

VP lives unless he gets countered.

HOLD ON!

VP Balthar!!..Did you forget I was here?
Explain yourself.

Today we lynch scum, camn. That's all the explanation that I can give today. Trust me, k.

Unvote, Vote VP Baltar

This is an EXACT REPLAY of Zazie's game.
Are you denying that you knew what was going on?

[camn]

For everyone else...
In OPEN 122

Claim: Doctor

Mufasa Claimed Doc AS A VANILLA TOWNIE.
Maadneet, the REAL doctor, counterclaimed . .

Too bad - I am the Doctor.

THEN I REPLACED IN

In my FIRST POST....

ANd now, christ! A brand-new green newb does something brilliant.. and you guys lynch him for it.
Mufasa, I salute you.
If you hadn't gotten counterclaimed...... you could have drawn the nightkill easily. That was your plan, right? Get killed, taking one for the town, and get out of this insane game? Hmph.

VP Balthar Understood.

As much as you guys seem to hate the idea of claiming doc (or any protown power role), Camn is correct. There are instances in which it is a good play to make for a VT. Whether it was the right move for mufasa to make at that time is debatable, but all in all its not scummy of camn to say it may have been a good thing. Regardless, we are where we are and we know that maad is the doc.

And I had further comment...

...it was maadnet that misplayed, though, you understand. Despite dejkha's 767, he claimed. This was not Mufasa's problem.

VP STILL understands...

I agree that it was a stupid action for mufasa to falseclaim at that time. I was saying that there are times where it is a valid move

Me, again, talking about the reasons to claim Doc as a VT...

It was brilliant. ...a 100% of vanilla Nightkill > 1/4 chance of a PowerRole Nightkill.

My Point?
This GAMBIT, claiming doc as a VT was well understood by VP Balthat

AND BY KMD

, and KMD coming out to re-vote him... especially considering that I had more to say on the issue.. is extremely suspect.

Even if he tries to say that he didn't follow that game (he HAD been killed the night before...)
He knew that Me and VP Balthar were both in that game...
he knew that a Doc fake-claim had happened...
He knew that no real doc should CC...
and

KMD KNEW that VP was town.

But voted him anyway.

[camn]

PLUS, FOR THE RECORD.. Both VP and I were town in that game...

and we won

.

I think KMD is scum, and thought he could

SLIP THIS PAST ME

.
Or maybe he was just crazy-afraid that me and VP were going to team up and destroy his little wolf-group. VP did say in that game...

Quiver at the unholy alliance of VP CamnX.

Now he is being mega-sloppy for going after me so quick.. and I intend to see him hang. He knew what was going on, and I can't believe you guys let him push the lynch while I was on the bus! I

obviously

knew something!

That is all.
I sleep now.

VOTE: KMD

[mykonian]

I'd prefer KMD, but Llama is an acceptable alternative.

Nothing has changed for my case on KMD. Llama's case on VP was aptly-timed, and quite suspicious. I'm actually kind of glad that of the two townies to die, they were plum and zazier, because I had suspicions about them.

Being wrong about VP has shaken my town read on Incognito a bit, and also that he wasn't targetted at night. I also haven't liked Camn's posts lately.

Still, KMD is my prime suspect, and if Charter refuses to look anywhere else, he's my number 2.

plus that KMD started with weak questioning of Llama, ended with making that a vote "because Llama acts weird", and now it suddenly became a big suspect. I would go for KMD.

[mykonian]

btw, Llama is town.

Charter assumed yesterday in one of his reasonings that there was only one scumteam, something that was debated then. He seems surprisingly to be right. I wonder where he got that knowledge...

[camn]

This really has me interested here:

Though I would LOVE to put SOMEBODY at L-1.. I don't really get scum from VP right now.
In fact, it would not surprise me at all to see VP, KMD, and Llama ALL be town...

I really am thinking NOW, that Mykonian, Zazie, and maybe Plum need some more pressure... but I understand that the deadline is going to be on top of us really soon.

She sets herself up to look good pretty much no matter who is lynched by saying she wouldn't be surprised to see VP, Llama, and myself all be town. Three players who SHE SUSPECTED until this post. And she's even come back to suspecting Llama.

Another thing about that post is who she names as scum. Two of those players have flipped town. The other, Myko, is someone who I think is town. Camn, what made you suspect Plum, Zazie, and Myko? Are you still suspicious of Myko? Hell, what had you suspicious of Llama, VP, and myself? What made you change your mind? And now, why are you back on Llama?

PLus, KMD, you misrep me slightly here!

My comments RE: not being surprised.. I said that about them BECAUSE they were my suspects! I am always very unsure Day1.

And I

didn't

say I "name as scum" Mykonian, Zazie, and Plum. I listed them as needing more pressure

because of their level of activity

. How you warp my typical lurker-pressure into "THEY ARE SCUM" is beyond me!

Golly, I have a couple more things on KMD.. but I will chill till I see his comments!

[SpyreX]

A new day, a new votecount:

Kmd4390 (1): Camn

Llamafluff (2): Porkens, Incognito

Porkens (0):
camn (1): Kmd4390
Mykonian (0):
charter (0):
Incognito (0):
Zilla (0):

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch!

Deadline: Thursday June 18th, 10:30 PM PST

[Incognito]

Fun fact

:

LlamaFluff has a knack for fake-claiming town power roles as scum. I'm skeptical of this claim; I don't doubt that he has this ability that he's claiming, but I do doubt whether he's actually town-aligned.

btw, Llama is town.

I'm assuming this means that you did receive whatever it is that LF gave to you during the night, yes? If so, why do you believe that automatically makes him town?

Charter assumed yesterday in one of his reasonings that there was only one scumteam, something that was debated then. He seems surprisingly to be right. I wonder where he got that knowledge...

Do you believe charter is scum? Why no vote?

@Kmd:

Why is charter 'obvtown' to you? Also, which game(s) are you referring to of LF's where you mention that he didn't do this as other town PRs?

I didn't see you do this as a vig or as a JOAT.

I always just fail with any power role. I think I spend too much time during they day trying to figure out how to use my role and not enough scumhunting.

This is an odd answer. Kmd is accusing you of playing differently from how he's seen you play as a town PR in the past, and you seem to completely skip around his issue with you and mention that you always fail as a town PR. So, is his meta of you incorrect or something?

-~-~-~-~-~-~

Camn/Kmd stuff: I don't feel like camn's played too differently from how I'm used to seeing her play as town, and I've modded her as scum before to have that comparison in mind. In fact, I remember Kmd mentioning earlier in Day 1 that he thought camn

was

actually playing similar to how he remembered but now in his case against her, he mentions that he is seeing a contrast from what he remembered. I'm not sure I understand what changed his opinion on her then.

I'm also not sure I understand camn's meta-case against Kmd. Camn, was Kmd actually playing in the game when this Vanilla claimed Doc? Did he react differently to that person's Doc claim than he did here?

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

We only have week-long deadlines from here on out, but I intend to take this nice and slow so we don't make hasty decisions. My vote can stay for now though.

[camn]

He had just been killed, which is why I asked him if he followed it.. so I don't have a reaction then.

My point is, we all had a good-sized argument about a VT fake-claiming DOC, and what the proper response would be... Balthar and I especially. Balthar was pulling something yesterday.. I knew it, and KMD ALSO knew it.

THe fact that he re-voted, an in fact allowed a lynch is incredibly suspect to me considering our experience in that game!

[LlamaFluff]

Fun fact

:

LlamaFluff has a knack for fake-claiming town power roles as scum. I'm skeptical of this claim; I don't doubt that he has this ability that he's claiming, but I do doubt whether he's actually town-aligned.

btw, Llama is town.

I'm assuming this means that you did receive whatever it is that LF gave to you during the night, yes? If so, why do you believe that automatically makes him town?

Both these can be covered at once! Yay!

All my inventions benifit whoever they are given to. That is something that has been confirmed to me, and I am sure myk can confirm that as well. Now, how would a scum role that aids the town work really? You either are arguing that I am scum given useful things to town, or you are arguing that I am scum with myk.

Also another

FUN FACT

If Llama did not replace into a game, he is town. (seriously, even including abandoned games im something like 15 town - 2 scum)

I always just fail with any power role. I think I spend too much time during they day trying to figure out how to use my role and not enough scumhunting.

This is an odd answer. Kmd is accusing you of playing differently from how he's seen you play as a town PR in the past, and you seem to completely skip around his issue with you and mention that you always fail as a town PR. So, is his meta of you incorrect or something?

I do not think I have ever had to claim VT outside of massclaim/lylo situation in my entire history of playing. I normally get ran up as power roles and need to claim. I can think of only a few games as a town power where I did not need to claim.

[mykonian]

yes, that is indeed the reason Llama is town. I know he likes to fakeclaim, but I can't see him doing this.

people, please look back at KMD's voting last day, esspecially around Llama. It is extremely weak. first he tries to make people suspicious, but doens't want to vote, and but in the end he does vote because Llama place different then else...

but on the moment needed, he is on the VP lynch.

[Incognito]

LlamaFluff, I have to look into a few things with mykonian before deciding whether or not I think you're likely scum with him, but I'm not completely discounting the idea that your role could be a scum role that could even benefit town. Mini 692 - Boost Mafia had a role just like this (see the Godfather role PM at the top of the linked post). The GF had the potential (after being boosted twice, mind you) to not only show up as innocent to potential investigations but also give out boosts to anyone of his choosing at the rate of one per night, which is a powerful scum role since it could potentially seemingly "clear" the GF as town if he happened to give a boost to someone who was town under the same thinking you're trying to sell here: "why would someone who is scum give something that could help town to the town?".

I try to avoid making lynch decisions based on claims; I lynch based on genuinely scummy behavior, and I still feel like your play during D1 was scummy for previously mentioned reasons, so just because you claimed a PR doesn't mean I'm going to automatically check you off as town. It just doesn't work that way.

I do not think I have ever had to claim VT outside of massclaim/lylo situation in my entire history of playing. I normally get ran up as power roles and need to claim. I can think of only a few games as a town power where I did not need to claim.

I'll wait until Kmd links to the games he had in mind before commenting on this further (if I feel further commenting is actually needed).

-~-~-~-~-~-~

camn, I'll allow Kmd to respond to your stuff before I give more of my two cents on it.

[Porkens]

unvote

for the time being

[Kmd4390]

Are you denying that you knew what was going on?

I had no clue VP was going to flip VP. I thought Mufasa made a bad play in that game and didn't think VP would repeat it. Maybe there are positives to it that I don't see because I respect VP as a player. *shrug*. I don't get it, but it is what it is.

My Point?
This GAMBIT, claiming doc as a VT was well understood by VP Balthat

AND BY KMD

, and KMD coming out to re-vote him... especially considering that I had more to say on the issue.. is extremely suspect.

Even if he tries to say that he didn't follow that game (he HAD been killed the night before...)
He knew that Me and VP Balthar were both in that game...
he knew that a Doc fake-claim had happened...
He knew that no real doc should CC...
and

KMD KNEW that VP was town.

But voted him anyway.

I followed the game enough to know that Mufasa fakeclaimed as town (I think I was still alive actually), and I remember you calling it a good play, but I didn't remember VP being ok with it. Like I said, I don't see the benefit as most docs WILL counter in that situation, and DID both times. And both times, the fakeclaiming townie was lynched.

VOTE: KMD

Right after I vote you, you are voting me for not seeing what VP was doing (and I don't even agree with it after the fact)?

plus that KMD started with weak questioning of Llama, ended with making that a vote "because Llama acts weird", and now it suddenly became a big suspect. I would go for KMD.

My Llama vote was not weak AT ALL. He was NOT playing to his meta, and I haven't even seen him play poorly as a power role like he claims. It was extremely suspicious and my other top suspects were either dead or a doc who counterclaimed another. Llama was obviously my top choice at that time. I'm confident that Camn is scum, but I have no clue on her buddy. I need to look.

PLus, KMD, you misrep me slightly here!

My comments RE: not being surprised.. I said that about them BECAUSE they were my suspects! I am always very unsure Day1.

And I

didn't

say I "name as scum" Mykonian, Zazie, and Plum. I listed them as needing more pressure

because of their level of activity

. How you warp my typical lurker-pressure into "THEY ARE SCUM" is beyond me!

Golly, I have a couple more things on KMD.. but I will chill till I see his comments!

Well, my bad then. When you put "town" next to your suspects and "pressure" next to people you don't think are scum, I'll get confused, especially with very little sleep lately.

@Kmd:

Why is charter 'obvtown' to you? Also, which game(s) are you referring to of LF's where you mention that he didn't do this as other town PRs?

Charter is playing exactly to his town meta right now. If he's scum, he's aware of his own meta to the point where he can imitate it perfectly.

Llama didn't play poorly at all in the large Family Guy game as a vig or the Family Guy mini as a JOAT. I can get those links if you'd like.

Camn/Kmd stuff: I don't feel like camn's played too differently from how I'm used to seeing her play as town, and I've modded her as scum before to have that comparison in mind. In fact, I remember Kmd mentioning earlier in Day 1 that he thought camn

was

actually playing similar to how he remembered but now in his case against her, he mentions that he is seeing a contrast from what he remembered. I'm not sure I understand what changed his opinion on her then.

Camn's "opinions on everyone" post that looks more like a "who is lurking?" is something I've seen her do in basically every game I've played with her where she was town. I took that as a towntell and made the mistake of not looking at her play overall. I also ignored her buddying up because she does it as town. Apart from that, her play hasn't looked very strong. She was less active on Day 1 than usual, she didn't back her cases strongly enough, and she seemed more like she was just there and going with the flow than actually playing the game.

I'm also not sure I understand camn's meta-case against Kmd. Camn, was Kmd actually playing in the game when this Vanilla claimed Doc? Did he react differently to that person's Doc claim than he did here?

I think I was alive. I'd have to check to be sure. But I can tell you I don't like to see any town-aligned player fakeclaim. There are VERY few exceptions and trying to draw a NK as a VT is NOT one of them. There are other ways to get NK'd.

THe fact that he re-voted, an in fact allowed a lynch is incredibly suspect to me considering our experience in that game!

I saw a claim from a good player and a counterclaim. I assumed that meant one of the two was scum. That is what I will almost always assume in that situation.

Hey Camn, if I was scum, why would I push the lynch on a player you claim I knew was a VT instead of pushing the player who I would think is the doc? Or even switch to Llama or someone else? Why would I want a VT lynched so badly?

All my inventions benifit whoever they are given to. That is something that has been confirmed to me, and I am sure myk can confirm that as well. Now, how would a scum role that aids the town work really? You either are arguing that I am scum given useful things to town, or you are arguing that I am scum with myk.

So it's impossible that you gave something to Myko in order to gain townie points?

yes, that is indeed the reason Llama is town. I know he likes to fakeclaim, but I can't see him doing this.

If he's a scum inventor, what do you think he'd claim?

people, please look back at KMD's voting last day, esspecially around Llama. It is extremely weak. first he tries to make people suspicious, but doens't want to vote, and but in the end he does vote because Llama place different then else...

but on the moment needed, he is on the VP lynch.

Llama's play was scummier than VP's, but VP's lynch was more likely and I didn't want a no lynch. Then VP claimed and got countered and I thought he was obvscum at that point.

I'll wait until Kmd links to the games he had in mind before commenting on this further (if I feel further commenting is actually needed).

Ok, I'll get them after this post.

[Kmd4390]

Family Guy Mini. Llama was a JOAT and one of the towniest players in the game.

Family Guy Large. Llama was a vig. Wrong on his shots, but pretty protown through most of the game. He did get wagoned after a while and have to claim, but before that, he was really townie.

[LlamaFluff]

Family Guy Mini. Llama was a JOAT and one of the towniest players in the game.

Family Guy Large. Llama was a vig. Wrong on his shots, but pretty protown through most of the game. He did get wagoned after a while and have to claim, but before that, he was really townie.

But if you remember I would of got lynched in both of those games if I was VT. Being forced to claim out of massclaim is bad play to me.

[Kmd4390]

You only had to claim in the Mini because you were voteless.

The large, you mostly played a good game.

Here, you took a back seat and waited for something to happen. That is something I have NEVER seen you do.

[mykonian]

You only had to claim in the Mini because you were voteless.

The large, you mostly played a good game.

Here, you took a back seat and waited for something to happen. That is something I have NEVER seen you do.

also not as scum.

[LlamaFluff]

You only had to claim in the Mini because you were voteless.

I had to full claim late because I (correctly mind you) suggested lynching the lovers because one is scum.

The large, you mostly played a good game.

Good day one, really bad post day one.

Here, you took a back seat and waited for something to happen. That is something I have NEVER seen you do.

I cant get any good scum reads on anyone, I dont want to try and take over a game when I dont have any good scum reads.

Im starting to lean to a charter-incog pairing though on a gut level. Im pretty sure that zilla, porkens and myk are town, also I am starting to gain confidence in camn town.

[Kmd4390]

I had to full claim late because I (correctly mind you) suggested lynching the lovers because one is scum.

Hey, I get some credit for that lynch too. Are you forgetting I had a guilty on Rock? XD

Really though, you were very townie and I don't think you'd have had to fullclaim if you weren't voteless.

Good day one, really bad post day one.

And Day 2 I thought. But how was your Day 1 here? Hmm.

I cant get any good scum reads on anyone, I dont want to try and take over a game when I dont have any good scum reads.

Again, I've NEVER seen you do this. You complained about your reads in the Large Family Guy game too, but you kept pushing and taking control.

Im starting to lean to a charter-incog pairing though on a gut level. Im pretty sure that zilla, porkens and myk are town, also I am starting to gain confidence in camn town.

Is your suspicion on Charter/Incog purely gut? Have you tried looking back to see if there is a case on either? Why no vote? Why town on Camn?