Newbie 688 - Game Over, Mafia Wins!

[Alduskkel]

That post was directed at BM.

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Page 21 Votecount

WeatheredClown: (2/5) Battle Mage, mrfixij,
Crysnia: (1/5) springlullaby,
mrfixij: (0/5)
Alduskkel: (0/5)
Moses le fou: (0/5)
Scheherazade: (0/5)
Battle Mage: (3/5) Scheherazade, Moses le fou, WeatheredClown,
springlullaby: (0/5)
orangepenguin: (1/5) Crysnia,

Not Voting: (2/9) Alduskkel, orangepenguin,

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch!
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[WeatheredClown]

I know it's not an empirical grounds, but if you look at the momentum shift when WC placed a vote on BM, it doesn't seem like bussing. Between WC and Crysania, they seem to be expressing an impatience with the day and urging it to be over sooner. Then BM's wagon seems to be losing steam, so WC tries to rebuild momentum on a BM wagon by putting him at L-1. I'm very tempted to unvote right now just because I think a lynch is premature.

Consider this. WC claims to be riding the vibe of town. Riding the vibe. This indicates some kind of distancing from town, as if she is not a part of it, but instead trying to find what it is that town is collectively feeling and becoming part of it. I consider this to be a soft scumclaim. Especially with the slightly scummy exchange between WC and Crysania (another high-pri suspect of mine) and the momentum shift which became evident when WC voted for BM. In fact, I'm going to take the initiative and undo that momentum swing.

unvote: BM
Vote: weathered Clown

Quit riding the vibe and start playing the part, if you're town. If you're scum, I'm more than happy to lynch you.

I'm not clear on what you're talking about with regards to a momentum shift.

I placed a vote to take BM to L-1... discussion picked up.. I unvoted BM to get rid of L-1 so we could discuss. Mention of an imposed timelimit was dangled, I went back to L-1. I don't think that during that time there were any "shifts" like you were talking about so I don't think that I was "stoking a fire" or whatever you are driving toward.

Additionally, this post makes me more suspicious of

you

than I have been in a while. I don't feel like any of the conclusions you're drawing are valid; Your descriptions of my actions don't seem to match up with what I'm actually doing if you look at my posts.

[Moses le fou]

I know it's not an empirical grounds, but if you look at the momentum shift when WC placed a vote on BM, it doesn't seem like bussing. Between WC and Crysania, they seem to be expressing an impatience with the day and urging it to be over sooner. Then BM's wagon seems to be losing steam, so WC tries to rebuild momentum on a BM wagon by putting him at L-1. I'm very tempted to unvote right now just because I think a lynch is premature.

Consider this. WC claims to be riding the vibe of town. Riding the vibe. This indicates some kind of distancing from town, as if she is not a part of it, but instead trying to find what it is that town is collectively feeling and becoming part of it. I consider this to be a soft scumclaim. Especially with the slightly scummy exchange between WC and Crysania (another high-pri suspect of mine) and the momentum shift which became evident when WC voted for BM. In fact, I'm going to take the initiative and undo that momentum swing.

unvote: BM
Vote: weathered Clown

Quit riding the vibe and start playing the part, if you're town. If you're scum, I'm more than happy to lynch you.

I think the part about "riding the vibe of the town" is a reach. It's an apparent synonym for going with the consensus. I see nothing wrong with referring to the town as an entity.

Also, the game has been deadlined and you think that a lynch would be premature?

[Alduskkel]

Mod, will the number of votes needed to lynch be reduced at deadline?

[vollkan]

Mod, will the number of votes needed to lynch be reduced at deadline?

Yes. See Rule 14:

14: If a majority is not reached by a deadline, the person with the highest number of votes will be lynched. In the case of a tie, the first person to reach that number of votes will be lynched.

[Alduskkel]

So are people voting for BM because of something Panamon has done or something BM has done/is doing.

Also, considering this game has a deadline on December 14, people sure aren't discussing much.

[mrfixij]

Aldus: what do you think of WC or crys?

[Crysnia]

Since this seems to be mrfixij's favourite thing to do....

Aldus: What do you think of Mrfixij or Orange Penguin?

[WeatheredClown]

Perhaps mrfixitj is trying really hard to be helpful, but I think he's just introducing a lot of static. Looking back and just reading his posts it seems like everything he says is about misuse of FoS or PBP or accusing people of OMGUS, scum pairs, or quoting every logical fallacy on the wiki.
Wouldn't any vote on day 1 be based on something that could find its roots in the documented logical fallacies? After all, the first day isn't actually based on logic because there's no data! I feel like you're using arguments that will be much more valid in a few days (and therefore look reasonable now) to sew confusion and disharmony. For me... day one.. that's my biggest scum tell. So I'm going to go with my initial gut, and change my vote.

!unvote
!vote mrfixitj

PS. i suspect mrfixitj (and have since early on) and he and battlemage are both voting for me.. I doubt scum would be so obvious as to vote together on one person.. therefore, under this hypothesis, battle mage would be innocent. We'll see how that plays out.

[Alduskkel]

WC: Generally good reasoning, except in his latest post (which I will go into more detail soon). One thing though: when he said he had been using other people's summaries of the situations, I took his word for it. But I scanned over his posts again, and I don't think he's been doing that. So I'd have to say he crumbled a little too easy under BM's accusations. After all, crumbling is much easier than defending yourself and bringing yourself to the spotlight. Also, in his latest post he said:

the first day isn't actually based on logic

That's ridiculous. We use logic to figure out, "Hmm, is such-and-such-an-action something a Mafia would do?

Looking back and just reading his posts it seems like everything he [mrfixij] says is about misuse of FoS or PBP or accusing people of OMGUS, scum pairs, or quoting every logical fallacy on the wiki.

Why is this bad? Accusations and logical fallacies are a key part of Mafia (the game, that is).

I feel like you're [mrfixij] using arguments that will be much more valid in a few days (and therefore look reasonable now) to sew confusion and disharmony.

I don't get how mrfixij is doing that. Could you quote some examples?

PS. i suspect mrfixitj (and have since early on) and he and battlemage are both voting for me.. I doubt scum would be so obvious as to vote together on one person.. therefore, under this hypothesis, battle mage would be innocent. We'll see how that plays out.

This is pure WIFOM.

Also this

Consider this. WC claims to be riding the vibe of town. Riding the vibe. This indicates some kind of distancing from town, as if she is not a part of it, but instead trying to find what it is that town is collectively feeling and becoming part of it. I consider this to be a soft scumclaim. Especially with the slightly scummy exchange between WC and Crysania (another high-pri suspect of mine) and the momentum shift which became evident when WC voted for BM. In fact, I'm going to take the initiative and undo that momentum swing.

And his vote on mrfixij was OMGUSy.

In conclusion, WeatheredClown has been avoiding the spotlight and (recently) been using bad logic. However, his earlier play was good. He's been acting pretty scummy though.

Crysnia: Bad logic, really. She said she is suspicious of mrfixij because he's too helpful... only Mafia should want to eliminate helpful players. And yes, I know, Crysnia has already defended this point, but it hasn't swayed me. I also don't like her unnecessary roleclaim in posts 313 and 343.

When she and mrfixij were arguing Crysnia twisted mrfixij's when she said that he said that it was better to lynch a Pro-Town person than a Mafia. And it is sometimes better to lynch a Pro-Town person if that gives tons of useful information, such as who the scum are. If lynching a Pro-Town person means figuring out who both scum are, so be it. If lynching a Mafia doesn't give any clues as to who the other is, then it isn't as good as lynching the Pro-Town person.

But I do believe that the mislynch should result in the lynching of the person who pushed the hardest to lynch someone innocent.

WIFOM, but generally scum prefer to hang in the background and tack on votes. On the other hand, a scum might pursue a townie rabidly for the sake of being able to say, "What scum would pursue a townie so hard? That would be just stupid." But this really is getting WIFOMy, so I'll cut that train of thought off.

I'm going to go ahead and suggest a minor anti-pairing between Crysnia and mrfixij. They've had some heated arguments, and I find it somewhat unlikely that they share the same alignment. But this isn't absolute; I'm just saying that it is fairly likely.

mrfixij: Good logic, though his case on Scheherazade was weak, as he admitted. I'm getting a town read.

orangepenguin: Other than the excuse to stay quiet early on, he seems like a good and logical player. More posts from him would be nice.

@mrfixij:

Let the record show that I hereby suggest an anti-pairing between BM and WC. If BM is town, WC is most likely scum, and vice-versa.

Why do you think this is so?

Mod, please prod Scheherazade (last post was 12 days ago, and though he said he was V/LA, even allowing that he should have posted 7 days ago) and SL (last post was 6 days ago). Optionally, please prod BM (last post was 2 days ago) and OP (last post was 3 days ago).

All that said...

Minor FoS: orangepenguin
Regular FoS: Crysnia
Vote: WeatheredClown

[orangepenguin]

Since this seems to be mrfixij's favourite thing to do....

Aldus: What do you think of Mrfixij or Orange Penguin?

Hmm, an easier way to go about this, instead of each person asking aldus what he thinks of two people THEY think are scummy, maybe we can ask his opinions on ALL the players and who HE thinks is scum.

I don't really think BM is scum. I really don't. =/

[Alduskkel]

Here's an idea: everyone gives their opinions on everyone else, and details why they are or aren't suspicious of a particular person.

I'll try and get the others I didn't cover tomorrow.

[vollkan]

I am now searching for a replacement for Shez.

[Moses le fou]

Here's an idea: everyone gives their opinions on everyone else, and details why they are or aren't suspicious of a particular person.

I'll try and get the others I didn't cover tomorrow.

I'll bite.

WeatheredClown: I don't like his bandwagoning and that he acknowledges that he does so doesn't clear him. I agree that his recent focus on mrfixij is OMGUS-y.

Crysnia: She's been largely low on substantial content. I found it odd that she brought up the potential SL/fixij pairing only when it focused on her.

mrfixij: I don't agree with the sentiment (though I kind of did at one point), but I do see where people are getting this whole "sewing confusion" thing. He's jumped to and from a lot of theories, which does sort of look like scum trying to find a wagon that sticks. But they mostly come at times when discussion is low, so I read it more as a frustrated player who wants the game to progress more.

Alduskkel: Has kind of crumbled in certain situations. He's sort of set himself up more as a mediator than anything, trying to facilitate discussion rather than actively pursuing somebody in particular.

Moses le fou: Is town.

Scheherazade: I've largely defended Schez simply because I never quite bought any of the arguments on him. He did seem to get a little panicky when SL was grilling him -- I'm not sure how to read it, but I ever-so-slightly lean scum.

Battle Mage: I've made my points on BM, but at this point, I'm willing to set him on the backburner.

springlullaby: I really don't know what to think about SL. She's had notable moments (her constant focus on Schez early in the day, that bit where she felt it necessary to remind people not to follow her because she "may have an agenda"), but I don't know what it all means in terms of SL's alignment.

orangepenguin: Posts just enough to avoid getting replaced, it seems. He said something about it being his general playstyle, which, quite honestly, stinks. So, what, we're supposed to wait on him to have some sort of epiphany?

I'd put my top three as:

1. Battle Mage
2. WeatheredClown
3. Crysnia

[WeatheredClown]

I think that after enough real days on the same day.. everything kind of turns to mud..

so that's why I'm just going to stick with my original mrfixitj vote (one of the few people who I've suspected whose account hasn't changed hands)...

Not sure exactly what all the fuss is about "riding the town vide"...
When I made a decision that wasn't entirely based on my own reasoning and then it was pointed out to me, I owned up to it, went back and read threads myself, and changed my vote..

That doesn't seem like "crumbling" to me rather than being big enough to admit that I could have read the situation incorrectly.

[WeatheredClown]

PS. i suspect mrfixitj (and have since early on) and he and battlemage are both voting for me.. I doubt scum would be so obvious as to vote together on one person.. therefore, under this hypothesis, battle mage would be innocent. We'll see how that plays out.

This is pure WIFOM.

Is that *really* WIFOM?
Isn't it just making a good guess on what the scum is likely to be doing? (not acting as a unified front this early in the game)...

I would think that WIFOM would be then saying..
"Oh-ho-ho, that's exactly what they WOULD do because that's the last thing that they'd expect!!"

That's at least by my understanding of the term.

[Alduskkel]

I think that after enough real days on the same day.. everything kind of turns to mud..

so that's why I'm just going to stick with my original mrfixitj vote (one of the few people who I've suspected whose account hasn't changed hands)...

Not sure exactly what all the fuss is about "riding the town vide"...
When I made a decision that wasn't entirely based on my own reasoning and then it was pointed out to me, I owned up to it, went back and read threads myself, and changed my vote..

That doesn't seem like "crumbling" to me rather than being big enough to admit that I could have read the situation incorrectly.

Answer this question for me: Where did you ride the vibe of the Town? What I'm trying to say is that I don't think you have been riding the vibe, but you went ahead and didn't defend yourself. We all know that if someone gets into an argument about something they did (or didn't do) then it draws attention to them. Scum don't want that.

PS. i suspect mrfixitj (and have since early on) and he and battlemage are both voting for me.. I doubt scum would be so obvious as to vote together on one person.. therefore, under this hypothesis, battle mage would be innocent. We'll see how that plays out.

This is pure WIFOM.

Is that *really* WIFOM?
Isn't it just making a good guess on what the scum is likely to be doing? (not acting as a unified front this early in the game)...

I would think that WIFOM would be then saying..
"Oh-ho-ho, that's exactly what they WOULD do because that's the last thing that they'd expect!!"

That's at least by my understanding of the term.

It is WIFOM. The scum might have voted together because what scum would be so dumb as to vote together? But wait, since that means they're less suspicious if they do something that's an obvious scum tell, the Town should be suspicious of people voting together. But since that's the obvious thing to do for scum, they won't do it.

And so on.

Review of the other 4 players will come soon.

[vollkan]

Many thanks to CF Riot, who hereby replaces Shez

[Alduskkel]

springlullaby: Null read, need more posts.

Scheherazade: Logical and Pro-Town. As to the rule breaking thing:
#1: mrfixij and Panamon both wanted him to give an explanation. So he did.
#2: It was not against the rules at the time.
On the other hand, Scheherazade should have known better. It is my understanding that he is an IC. Though I guess ICs make mistakes too; just not as much as newbies (I would hope). I don't really know how rule breaking benefits scum anyway.

Not enough time for Moses and BM. The reason that this is taking so long is because before making a statement about the player I re-read all of their posts.

Also, greetings CF Riot! I'm sure you know me as the guy who got lynched Day 1 in Newbie 681. Sorry you got NK'd.

I hope you read the thread fast, though if you read as slow as me it'll take forever.

[CF Riot]

Yeah, I remember you. That game will definitely help my read of you once I actually get to the point where you start posting. I consider myself a pretty slow reader. And I'm in a few other games so that will add to it. And I have finals tomorrow and Friday. T.T; But I promise I'm making headway. Top of page 11.

Letting you guys know I'm here, and I'm also going to

unvote

until I'm caught up, though BM don't get too comfortable because you're leading my scumlist right now. More soon(ish).

[mrfixij]

We're getting dangerously close to the deadline, and I don't think we can wait on CF to give us some feedback to continue our decision. We need to reach a consensus soon.

[WeatheredClown]

Answer this question for me: Where did you ride the vibe of the Town? What I'm trying to say is that I don't think you have been riding the vibe, but you went ahead and didn't defend yourself. We all know that if someone gets into an argument about something they did (or didn't do) then it draws attention to them. Scum don't want that.

Ok.. I'll tell you exactly what I was referring to about myself when I said that I was "riding the town vibe".

I said

Of course, having said all that, I would follow a BM vote if that's what we needed to move the game forward since its one of our few obvious possibilities. (Mastin seemed like another obvious one)

Immediately after BM picked up a few votes I "rode the town vibe" (as I said that I would) and voted for him.

But then BM said, "hey, you're just riding the town vibe".. and I looked back and my last few votes and said, "hey, I guess you're right, that's exactly what I did".

hope that clears things up as to where I was coming from..

so with where things stand right now.. I think that I'm tied with two votes with BM...

so I'm hoping that this changes one way or another before the deadline..

[Alduskkel]

Mod, please prod [...] SL (last post was 6 days ago).

This was 3 days ago. Assuming that vollkan prodded SL, SL might need a replacement.

And now, Moses le fou.

I didn't think he was very logical early on, but he's definitely improved.

This might seem like a 180° turn, but I think his case on BM is actually legit. Let's look at the core reasons.

-Panamon bandwagoned. I know I said this was probably just newbishness, but I've changed my mind. Bandwagoning is bandwagoning.

-Panamon caused Scheherazade to... well I'll let Moses speak for himself.

Look at what [Panamon] did. He put a vote on Schez and put Schez in a position where he could only defend himself by pulling info from another game. Schez has two options: poorly defend himself (which will make him look scummy) or defend himself by breaking the rules (which brings down the wrath of the mod and, as we found out, makes him look scummy).

...
Look at what he did. He put a vote on Schez and put Schez in a position where he could only defend himself by pulling info from another game. Schez has two options: poorly defend himself (which will make him look scummy) or defend himself by breaking the rules (which brings down the wrath of the mod and, as we found out, makes him look scummy). In and of itself, I did not find it incredibly scummy (which is why I did not vote for Panamon while that was going on).

Isn't the other option here to claim that responding to that would be discussing a different running game, and so it should be removed from the table?

That's what I mean by "poorly defend himself." If Schez did so, Panamon could have easily accused Schez of dodging the issue. It would have been the right thing to do, but Panamon would still have the advantage. And that's what I mean by Panamon pushing Schez to break the rules being scummy. Schez had to do so in order to get him off his back. Otherwise, it gave Panamon an easy wagon to lead and I think that if Panamon hadn't backed off when Volkan intervened, Schez would be lynched right now.

So in conclusion I wouldn't mind lynching BM, but WC seems scummier. In addition to my previous accusations (which he has not bothered to address) he... well mrfixij said it so well I might as well quote him again.

Consider this. WC claims to be riding the vibe of town. Riding the vibe. This indicates some kind of distancing from town, as if she is not a part of it, but instead trying to find what it is that town is collectively feeling and becoming part of it. I consider this to be a soft scumclaim.

A scum claim might be going too far, but the point remains.

So yeah, Moses has been logical most of the game and has a good case on BM, though not as good as the one I've got on WC (in my opinion).

You should really try and defend yourself WC; if you don't, chances are you will be deadline lynched, assuming votes don't change between now and the 14th.

Discussion really needs to pick up.

I'll look at BM closer on Friday or Saturday. Maybe I'll pick up on scumtells that will convince me he is a better lynch than WC. Maybe.

[Battle Mage]

sorry about my lack of activity recently. Will get to this game tonight.

BM

[Moses le fou]

I'm interested in what Aldu has to say about BM.