In post 48, Enter wrote:The fact that that worked is a detriment to the town in that game and not a bonus to him. I'm not going to discuss the AtE because it's not part of my discussion here- I hate it, it's disgusting, but people use it - I use it (though not intentionally) and it's not something that's going to stop
The town was not good that game. They did not work well together, there was a lot of objectively bad play.
However, part of mafia is reading the lobby and using the best strategy in that game to get you a win.
In a better lobby it may not have worked, but mbaki knew what sort of situation he was in and that the self vote would be the most effective way to get votes off of him. You might hate it personally, but in some games, notably this one, it can be an effective strategy.
In post 48, Enter wrote:The fact that that worked is a detriment to the town in that game and not a bonus to him. I'm not going to discuss the AtE because it's not part of my discussion here- I hate it, it's disgusting, but people use it - I use it (though not intentionally) and it's not something that's going to stop
The town was not good that game. They did not work well together, there was a lot of objectively bad play.
However, part of mafia is reading the lobby and using the best strategy in that game to get you a win.
In a better lobby it may not have worked, but mbaki knew what sort of situation he was in and that the self vote would be the most effective way to get votes off of him. You might hate it personally, but in some games, notably this one, it can be an effective strategy.
Fair. I can accept this, but my goal is to make towns better by not accepting self-votes as indications of alignment.
I can see this being a proper time and place to do it, although I'd really prefer if post-game there was discussion had of whether or not there was a better way to get out of this situation and whether or not the self-vote was achievable as town or scum.
Town has a singular goal in mafia: To find and lynch all the scum
This is achieved by reading other player's reactions and working with other players by achieving town reads on oneself.
Self-voting should not achieve town reads on oneself as it is achievable by both town and the very worst of scum (I pulled it off in a recent game, Burden of Proficiency 2) to win a game that I should not have won.
Self-voting does not achieve reads on other players, because responses to it are predictable and have been seen in hundreds of games prior.
Last edited by Enter on Sun Apr 07, 2019 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
When you self-vote you deprive town of your vote on other players as a note of where your stance is at that point in time (if you don't know why that's particularly bad , we can talk about it, but I'm going to move forward assuming everyone knows), and you manage to do nothing with it but draw attention to yourself. If the goal is to draw attention to yourself, there are less anti-town ways to do that.
In post 48, Enter wrote:The fact that that worked is a detriment to the town in that game and not a bonus to him. I'm not going to discuss the AtE because it's not part of my discussion here- I hate it, it's disgusting, but people use it - I use it (though not intentionally) and it's not something that's going to stop
The town was not good that game. They did not work well together, there was a lot of objectively bad play.
However, part of mafia is reading the lobby and using the best strategy in that game to get you a win.
In a better lobby it may not have worked, but mbaki knew what sort of situation he was in and that the self vote would be the most effective way to get votes off of him. You might hate it personally, but in some games, notably this one, it can be an effective strategy.
I take this back, I responded before I read the game.
It's quite possible this is optimal play here - I spoke out of my ass and I'm sorry for that. :/ This might have been a good time to self-vote. I don't know
In post 38, Enter wrote:If you're the last scum you should always play until the whistle. :/
I believe that realising when you're done and just not wasting everyone's time is part of being good at mafia
How many times have you seen a wagon on scum get to L-1 but because it sits there long enough, the wagon ends up elsewhere? Even mechanics can be manipulated, CCs can be made, etc.
In post 38, Enter wrote:If you're the last scum you should always play until the whistle. :/
I believe that realising when you're done and just not wasting everyone's time is part of being good at mafia
How many times have you seen a wagon on scum get to L-1 but because it sits there long enough, the wagon ends up elsewhere? Even mechanics can be manipulated, CCs can be made, etc.
Well, sometimes town is competent
Right, but giving up on the assumption that town is competent isn't optimal play. :/ If town is competent, it shouldn't be hard for the last townie to get on and hammer, and the fact that town is not competent such a large portion of the time supports the idea that playing until the end is a good idea because it can result in a win.
In post 38, Enter wrote:If you're the last scum you should always play until the whistle. :/
I believe that realising when you're done and just not wasting everyone's time is part of being good at mafia
How many times have you seen a wagon on scum get to L-1 but because it sits there long enough, the wagon ends up elsewhere? Even mechanics can be manipulated, CCs can be made, etc.
Well, sometimes town is competent
Right, but giving up on the assumption that town is competent isn't optimal play. :/ If town is competent, it shouldn't be hard for the last townie to get on and hammer, and the fact that town is not competent such a large portion of the time supports the idea that playing until the end is a good idea because it can result in a win.
I don't know, if you really don't understand or it's just bad attempt to troll. I don't tell you concede every game, I don't tell you concede on "assumption". I'm saying experienced people know, when town is competent and they just concede, which saves everyone's times
In post 38, Enter wrote:If you're the last scum you should always play until the whistle. :/
I believe that realising when you're done and just not wasting everyone's time is part of being good at mafia
How many times have you seen a wagon on scum get to L-1 but because it sits there long enough, the wagon ends up elsewhere? Even mechanics can be manipulated, CCs can be made, etc.
Well, sometimes town is competent
Right, but giving up on the assumption that town is competent isn't optimal play. :/ If town is competent, it shouldn't be hard for the last townie to get on and hammer, and the fact that town is not competent such a large portion of the time supports the idea that playing until the end is a good idea because it can result in a win.
I don't know, if you really don't understand or it's just bad attempt to troll. I don't tell you concede every game, I don't tell you concede on "assumption". I'm saying experienced people know, when town is competent and they just concede, which saves everyone's times
Two scenarios:
1. Competent town, game is over for scum - all townies vote that scum player quickly because town is competent - In this scenario, it doesn't matter if the player votes themselves or doesn't
2. Incompetent town, game looks like it's over for scum but it isn't - scum can withhold self hammer and has a chance at winning the game or self hammer and lose the game - In this scenario, the player should not vote themselves.
I will say that I think I overreacted a bit to the "self voting is always bad" idea. I don't see particular merit in it, but if it progresses someone else's game in a productive way, it doesn't benefit me to stop them from it.
I guess I'm trying to push thought before action as a process here since I've seen (and been a part of) a lot of more thoughtless play recently, and I don't see a whole lot of situations where self-voting is productive. :/
In post 38, Enter wrote:If you're the last scum you should always play until the whistle. :/
I believe that realising when you're done and just not wasting everyone's time is part of being good at mafia
How many times have you seen a wagon on scum get to L-1 but because it sits there long enough, the wagon ends up elsewhere? Even mechanics can be manipulated, CCs can be made, etc.
Well, sometimes town is competent
Right, but giving up on the assumption that town is competent isn't optimal play. :/ If town is competent, it shouldn't be hard for the last townie to get on and hammer, and the fact that town is not competent such a large portion of the time supports the idea that playing until the end is a good idea because it can result in a win.
I don't know, if you really don't understand or it's just bad attempt to troll. I don't tell you concede every game, I don't tell you concede on "assumption". I'm saying experienced people know, when town is competent and they just concede, which saves everyone's times
Two scenarios:
1. Competent town, game is over for scum - all townies vote that scum player quickly because town is competent - In this scenario, it doesn't matter if the player votes themselves or doesn't
2. Incompetent town, game looks like it's over for scum but it isn't - scum can withhold self hammer and has a chance at winning the game or self hammer and lose the game - In this scenario, the player should not vote themselves.
You're fighting a losing battle here.
What about town lynching scum after long discussion? Or lynching someone else first and then lynching scum? Or having PoE'd scum and someone else and having enough lynches for all of them?
If you against that competent town as you describe in your 1., then you're dead before you even have time to consider concede option
In post 38, Enter wrote:If you're the last scum you should always play until the whistle. :/
I believe that realising when you're done and just not wasting everyone's time is part of being good at mafia
How many times have you seen a wagon on scum get to L-1 but because it sits there long enough, the wagon ends up elsewhere? Even mechanics can be manipulated, CCs can be made, etc.
Well, sometimes town is competent
Right, but giving up on the assumption that town is competent isn't optimal play. :/ If town is competent, it shouldn't be hard for the last townie to get on and hammer, and the fact that town is not competent such a large portion of the time supports the idea that playing until the end is a good idea because it can result in a win.
I don't know, if you really don't understand or it's just bad attempt to troll. I don't tell you concede every game, I don't tell you concede on "assumption". I'm saying experienced people know, when town is competent and they just concede, which saves everyone's times
Two scenarios:
1. Competent town, game is over for scum - all townies vote that scum player quickly because town is competent - In this scenario, it doesn't matter if the player votes themselves or doesn't
2. Incompetent town, game looks like it's over for scum but it isn't - scum can withhold self hammer and has a chance at winning the game or self hammer and lose the game - In this scenario, the player should not vote themselves.
You're fighting a losing battle here.
What about town lynching scum after long discussion? Or lynching someone else first and then lynching scum? Or having PoE'd scum and someone else and having enough lynches for all of them?
If you against that competent town as you describe in your 1., then you're dead before you even have time to consider concede option
Exactly my point. If you have time to consider whether or not you should concede, you probably shouldn't concede.
In post 68, Ramcius wrote:Your point is to be petty and waste time, but you're right, I can't convince you
No, my point is that you don't know the minds of the other players and what's winnable and isn't until you try to win it.
If you want to build up my argument as something it's not so you can put your defeatist attitude on display, please make your own thread to do that.
In post 69, RadiantCowbells wrote:i was in lylo as scum with a cop inno and a gunsmith inno and confirmed no godfathers and i won. never give up.
Are you telling that these people were competent?
Are you actually going to just assume things about players you know nothing about in a game you haven't read because you believe your point to be true?
I promise making your evidence match your conclusion isn't going to go very far in proving your point to anyone but yourself.
