[OLD] Open/Semi-Open Design Challenge

Prof Fridays · Post Post #50 (ISO) » Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:02 pm

Oh, I see. I guess I don't know all the details of the project. Is there somewhere I can read up on it?

BBmolla · Post Post #51 (ISO) » Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:05 pm

Private forums, I'd divulge everything but I don't know what mith wants to say and what he doesn't want to.

ISO · Post Post #52 (ISO) » Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:05 pm

Spoiler: Voidedmafia

What is the Mafia Doctor intended to do in this setup? Can't heal the suicide.

The Beloved Princess needs some sort of uncertainty as currently worded ("skip next Day phase if

lynched

"). Otherwise it's an autoclaim, and the setup has to account for that (make it worthwhile for the scum to counter). I'm not sure which version is better, though - the current version is a bit more fair for inclusion in closed setups, while the primary version ("skip next Day phase whenever the BP is killed, by any method") is more interesting for open setups (find/protect the BP).

Spoiler: Voidedmafia

Rolecop is unaffected by Miller and Godfather. Ninja doesn't do anything in this setup either.

Spoiler: The Bulge

Bulletproof-Bodyguard doesn't make sense. We also probably won't have the Hider, due to the complexity of resolving the night actions when the Hider is around.

Spoiler: Aronis

Interesting role, though we are sticking to existing (and mostly normal-approved) roles for this deck. Could certainly appear on a "suggested uses for blanks" wiki page at some point.

Spoiler: Aronis

I like the Ninja/Strongman pairing (we actually don't have Strongman on the list right now, but it gets around my concern about Ninja, namely that it doesn't just make itself immune to the Tracker/Watcher, it makes the whole group immune while it lives because it should just make the kill every time).

I'd be tempted to go for a massclaim in any game with 3 named town roles out of 8 players, though, and especially one with a Vig and no Mafia Roleblocker or Doctor. Vig is uncounterable (let them shoot each other), and any other counter you lynch one and Vig the other if necessary.

Not sure what the fix is, other than expanding it to a larger game and making it more like Classic Rivals.

shaft.ed · Post Post #53 (ISO) » Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:45 pm

In post 30, shaft.ed wrote:2 x Goon
1 Doctor
1 Beloved Princess
1 Vengeful Townie
3 x VT

forgot to box it in

Prof Fridays · Post Post #54 (ISO) » Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:15 pm

In post 51, BBmolla wrote:Private forums, I'd divulge everything but I don't know what mith wants to say and what he doesn't want to.

Oh. I guess it just seems rather odd that this would be posted publicly as a Global topic with only vague hints as to what it's about?

quadz08 · Post Post #55 (ISO) » Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:19 pm

It's for a deck of mafia cards to be used for F2F mafia. List of cards not revealed because if something seems really good / lots of people want to use a specific role, we may alter the existing list to include said role(s).

Aronis · Post Post #56 (ISO) » Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:27 pm

Yeah, I can see the prob with potential massclaims. Maybe It'd be best to add 2 or 4 VTs.

More setups:

Setup 7 - 6p

x1 Cult Recruiter
x4 Vanilla Town
x1 Town Roleblocker

Just messing around with the cult, seems fairly balanced.

Setup 8 - 13p

x2 Mafia Goon
x1 Mafia Ninja Roleblocker
x7 Town Vanilla
x1 Town Doctor
x1 Town Watcher
x1 Town 1-shot Vig

Trying to force the Mafia to choose between either roleblocking or evading the watcher.

Setup 9 - 8p

x1 Mafia Goon
x1 Mafia Roleblocker
x4 Town Vanilla
x1 Town Cop
x1 Town Miller Jailkeeper
[Roleblocker resolves first]

Trying to prevent the Miller from just claiming right away.

Prof Fridays · Post Post #57 (ISO) » Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:33 pm

In post 55, quadz08 wrote:It's for a deck of mafia cards to be used for F2F mafia. List of cards not revealed because if something seems really good / lots of people want to use a specific role, we may alter the existing list to include said role(s).

I kind of gathered that after enough hints were dropped; it just seemed like the assumption of the first post was that everyone already knew, which was rather strange to me, especially if it is in a private forum that this stuff is known. I don't mean to be critical; just clarity seems key here.

quadz08 · Post Post #58 (ISO) » Tue Jul 01, 2014 1:54 pm

Fair enough. OP not particularly clear for those who are unaware that a F2F deck has been a long-term goal here.

pieguyn · Post Post #59 (ISO) » Tue Jul 01, 2014 2:35 pm

HALF NIGHTLESS

3 - Mafia Suicide Bomber

9 - Vanilla Townie

-Nightless

idea with this is that mafia gets to kill a townie, but it's only worthwhile to do that when they're going to get lynched anyway, effectively giving the mafia a kill only when they get lynched.

idk if this works or not

Voidedmafia · Post Post #60 (ISO) » Tue Jul 01, 2014 3:20 pm

In post 52, mith wrote:What is the Mafia Doctor intended to do in this setup? Can't heal the suicide.

Oh, darn. Then that would probably just be a goon, or something.

In post 52, mith wrote:Rolecop is unaffected by Miller and Godfather. Ninja doesn't do anything in this setup either.

hrrrmph (though I'd have though it would...).

In post 59, pieguyn wrote:
HALF NIGHTLESS

3 - Mafia Suicide Bomber

9 - Vanilla Townie

-Nightless

idea with this is that mafia gets to kill a townie, but it's only worthwhile to do that when they're going to get lynched anyway, effectively giving the mafia a kill only when they get lynched.

idk if this works or not

I...don't think it does. It doesn't feel like it, anyways.

I do like my idea of a scum PR that blocks the action of the person they kill (though I guess it might be too much in one role), though. This Mafia Disabler would probably work in a game with PRs like cop, doctor, vig, etc.

Maybe...

Disability (11-13p)

1 Mafia Disabler
1 Mafia Goon
1 tracker
1 Doctor
1...inventer, maybe. Or a Watcher/Voyeur.
Rest are VTs.

Also, should we hold off on using some of these setups in games here on-site? I'm honestly itching a little to /out of the Open Queue and mod BB's role madness game on the first or second page (the one called "elegant").

Prof Fridays · Post Post #61 (ISO) » Tue Jul 01, 2014 3:40 pm

We should dub it the "Elegant Open." I feel like you should be able to run that as an Open. No need to /out of the Queue, right?

Bullish · Post Post #62 (ISO) » Tue Jul 01, 2014 4:30 pm

I haven't done a face to face set up before but I'm going to give it a shot:

6 player setups aren't usually practical for obvious reasons. For 6 players, an all-Vengeful (lynch only, no chain Venge) setup is good.

Semi-open. 8 players, 6-2.

#	TOWN	MAFIA
1	Vanilla	--
2	Wild	--
3	Doc	1x Strongman
4	Wild	--
5	Cop	Godfather
6	Wild	--
7	Tracker	Roleblocker
8	Wild	--
9	Vanilla	--

Three consecutive rows are randomly chosen. Players are randomly given the roles in those rows
If there are 2 Wild spots, they are filled with a pair of lovers.
If there is only 1 Wild spot, it is filled with a Vanilla, AND the first Mafia lynch is vengeful.

(EDIT: this can be changed to - Wild spot is filled with a "Beloved Princess"/"Virgin" type role that causes the next phase to skip when killed in any way.)

Empty spots are filled with Goons and Vanillas accordingly.

For example, #3, 4, and 5 are chosen. That means there is a Doc, Cop, Godfather, and Strongman.

If there are 10-12 players, increase # width count from 3 to 4 and add a traitor.

Edited some stuff.

Axxle · Post Post #63 (ISO) » Tue Jul 01, 2014 4:58 pm

In post 59, pieguyn wrote:
HALF NIGHTLESS

3 - Mafia Suicide Bomber

9 - Vanilla Townie

-Nightless

idea with this is that mafia gets to kill a townie, but it's only worthwhile to do that when they're going to get lynched anyway, effectively giving the mafia a kill only when they get lynched.

idk if this works or not

We've done mafia vengeful (where mafia members are vengeful) at reckoning a few times. Seemed to work with 2/6

Voidedmafia · Post Post #64 (ISO) » Tue Jul 01, 2014 5:29 pm

In post 61, Prof Fridays wrote:We should dub it the "Elegant Open." I feel like you should be able to run that as an Open. No need to /out of the Queue, right?

Fair 'nough. Now I know what I'll use (pending llama's approval and the go-ahead from Mith/Flay/Kison)

Bullish's setup is interesting.

FakeGod · Post Post #65 (ISO) » Tue Jul 01, 2014 7:01 pm

Lovers' Gambit

~10p

2 Mafia Goons

1 Lover

1 Lover (Innocent Child)

1 Jailkeeper

5 Vanilla Town

After the role cards are dealt, the moderator will ask one of the lovers to flip his/her card over and reveal his/her role.

Starts at even count. Therefore, Jailkeeper is incentivised to make a save, which grants town an extra mislynch. (Safe play would be to just protect the IC.)

Alternatively, losing the lovers puts the count at odd number.

Better title for the setup might be "

Tragic Love

", since the IC must do his best to pretend he doesn't know who his lover is, for sake of her protection.

It would be an awesome setup to play in F2F mafia. I can already see the IC lover struggling to invent new ways to defend his lover without openly defending her.

EDIT: In hindsight, this could be setting for a rom-com movie.

"The main character has the mafia gunning for him, and only reason why he hasn't been found dead in a ditch is because he's locked up in the county jail, protected by the tough-as-nails jailkeeper. He didn't let his girlfriend know of his current predicament, since if the goons found out, she might be in danger. As he befriends the old jailkeeper better, they form a plan to drive out the mob and restore peace to the town once and for all."

xfdagentx42 · Post Post #66 (ISO) » Wed Jul 02, 2014 12:43 am

Spoiler: 8PlayersThing

Spoiler: Its A Big World (13)

Spoiler: The Cursed(12)

Spoiler: The Table of Eight

Spoiler: Is It Dayless? (13)

MY SETUPSSSSS

ISO · Post Post #67 (ISO) » Wed Jul 02, 2014 4:55 am

Mafia Vengeful (which needs a better name, someone get on that) will be in the rulebook, along with some other vanilla variants.

ISO · Post Post #68 (ISO) » Wed Jul 02, 2014 6:19 am

Spoiler: Aronis

We're only going to have 1 Vig; otherwise, it's a fine core idea, and similar to one of quadz' suggestions (his version is 11p, only 1 Vig, and Mafia also get a Roleblocker). I really like the Mafia Doctor/Vigilante pairing because it makes the Vig strictly worse than a random lynch (but still better than a scum kill, so vig should probably still always shoot except for endgame parity situations).

The one with the SK is interesting, too. SK definitely needs some benefit, and 1-shot BP is my favorite version (and should be doable with sticker).

Spoiler: shaft.ed

Beloved Princess should claim, and I don't think Mafia have a good incentive to counter (lynch one of the claims, if it's scum town is in great shape, if not after all the nightkills and the scum lynch D2 it's down to 1:2, which is a coinflip unless scum have managed to hit both other named roles). So might as well be an Innocent Child, really. Probably not unbalanced, otherwise? Watcher-IC would be more interesting because mind games.

Spoiler: Voidedmafia

Don't think the Silencer is that strong in either version to warrant that much town power vs. two scum. I do like the Silencer as another way to get around the Cop-Doctor pairing, though.

Spoiler: Aronis

I quite like the idea of a limited-shot Cop and a Traitor

if

the Traitor comes up innocent pre-recruit and guilty post-recruit. Gives the Cop an interesting decision on when to use the investigation. For 8p though, the game may not last long enough for it to matter.

This setup would be especially interesting if the Mafia knew who the Traitor was (rather than the other way around) - arguably the scum might deliberately no-kill N1 to trick the Cop into thinking the Traitor had been recruited, potentially getting an innocent on the Traitor the next night. (In a bigger setup, anyway.)

Spoiler: Aronis

With no protection, Mafia can just kill the IC at night; the Suicide Bomber does give the option of taking out the IC if he's about to be lynched the same day the IC comes out, but really all that does balance-wise is skip an opportunity for the Vig to shoot (Mafia lynch, IC NK, next day lynch is the same as Suicide Bomber take out IC, lynch, except for the NK window for the Vig). Not an unreasonable setup though - and not totally sure what the optimal timing is for IC coming out (though I could argue that he should come out day 1 so the Vig can go ahead and use his shot at night and not have to worry about hitting the IC; you don't want the Vig to get killed before he using his shot, because that's effectively a no lynch in this setup).

BBmolla · Post Post #69 (ISO) » Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:09 am

In post 47, BBmolla wrote:
11 player setup:

Thrill On A No Kill

1 Mafia Suicide Bomber
1 Mafia Goon
1 Mafia Traitor
1 Town Doctor
1 Town Jailkeeper
6 Vanilla Town

AngryPidgeon · Post Post #70 (ISO) » Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:09 am

In post 13, BBmolla wrote:9 player setup:

Son of the Cop
If the miller dies, the cop may not investigate at night anymore.
2 Mafia Goons
1 Town Cop
1 Town Miller
5 Vanilla Town

I liked this setup F2F. Even if it screwed me as scum

Edit: and the little tidbit of flavor you added here makes me like it even more.

BBmolla · Post Post #71 (ISO) » Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:13 am

We did agree though that claiming D2 was probably optimal.

+Rolecop or not, what do you think AP

AngryPidgeon · Post Post #72 (ISO) » Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:16 am

In post 65, FakeGod wrote:Lovers' Gambit ~10p

2 Mafia Goons

1 Lover
1 Lover (Innocent Child)
1 Jailkeeper
5 Vanilla Town

After the role cards are dealt, the moderator will ask one of the lovers to flip his/her card over and reveal his/her role.

My only issue with this setup is it looks rather town-sided at a glance (especially considering F2f). But basically you have 3 confirmed town roles and a Jailer is already preeeetty strong with only 2 scum. I'm not sure what I'd do to change that.

FakeGod · Post Post #73 (ISO) » Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:19 am

You're correct. It is bit townsided.

Expected win rates are 54:46 if my math is right.

Is that a bad thing?

FakeGod · Post Post #74 (ISO) » Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:20 am

I can always change the jailkeeper to doctor.

That gives us... 52:48?