Mini 441 - Flavourless Mafia. Game Over!

[undo]

My vote was not that random. Primate has put a person at lynch -4 with no reason, so I voted for him.

Now I keep my vote because I think he's scum.

[Cum Grano Salis]

can you please state how precisely you think I have slipped?

You probably thought that, if you lied and said you had a guilty cop result on me, I would become troubled. But now I turn the tables on you, and you look the most suspicious person right now (especially with your new WIFOM statement).

That's just not convincing, undo. Wanting to

trouble

someone through claiming guilty cop result doesn't give the scum advantage at this stage of the game. True, scum can do this, but that's not scummy.
Besides, it was obvious Primate's statement isn't true. He wouldn't vote Yakult if he had a guilty result on you.

Someone2 might have a good point, too.

[Cum Grano Salis]

My vote was not that random. Primate has put a person at lynch -4 with no reason, so I voted for him.

Now I keep my vote because I think he's scum.

Just seen that last message. Clarify please: is the "lynch-4" a joke?

[undo]

He wouldn't vote Yakult if he had a guilty result on you.

How do you know, have you talked to him?

You can't deny that asking "Undo, do you think it a likely thing for scum to do, to come out with a fake cop guilty result result day 1?" is WIFOM. And WIFOM logic is used many times by scum.

Clarify please: is the "lynch-4" a joke?

In Day 1, putting someone at lynch-4 with no reason is as suspicious as putting someone at lynch-1 in any other day. Would you rather have random voting during 5 pages in a row?

[Bob700]

You can't deny that asking "Undo, do you think it a likely thing for scum to do, to come out with a fake cop guilty result result day 1?" is WIFOM. And WIFOM logic is used many times by scum.

I am going to agree with this. For that reason I am going to keep my vote on Primate, not only because monkeys are scary, but because of his suspiciously scummy "Tactics". Enough with the random voting, we might have some basis.

[Bob700]

And with that, here is another vote count.

Primate (2) - Bob700, Undo
Bob700 (2) - Brid1111, Someone2
Undo (2) - Cum Grano Salis, Primate
Someone2 (1) - Yakult
Xyzzy (1) - Streeflo
Cum Grano Salis (1) - Aimee
Streeflo (1) - Xyzzy


Not Voting (1) - {BiC}Zeus
6 to lynch!

[Primate]

Undo, do you think it a likely thing for scum to do, to come out with a fake cop guilty result result day 1?

What do you consider the pros and the cons of this, for the scum?

Well, "likely" is not a word that should be in our dictionary for this game. I suppose scums like to do the most unlikely thing for a scum, so that people won't mistrust they are scum. That question you pose is WIFOM, Primate, and therefore suspicious.

That's stupid. I could chase someone down for two days, ripping apart their every argument, exposing every weakness in their stance, and have them turn up scum, and under the logic you put forward here, I could simply be a mafioso 'wifoming' my way into looking town. Fact of the matter is, if someone does something townielike, then then chances are, that person is actually a townie. If you start getting into that stupidly paranoid area where you start seeing people do townie things and ignore them for fear of them being fabricated, then that's a pretty lousy way to play. When you start saying 'hell scums will act like townies', you start lynching the people who are actually townies, cause, hell, you want to lynch townies. And lynching townies = bad thing.

can you please state how precisely you think I have slipped?

You probably thought that, if you lied and said you had a guilty cop result on me, I would become troubled. But now I turn the tables on you, and you look the most suspicious person right now (especially with your new WIFOM statement).

No shit I wanted you to become troubled. I expected you, as town, to become fairly concerned about the fact you were likely the lynch of the day, maybe accept it, maybe explode, or maybe fight it. As scum, I would expect you to discredit me by calling me scum, or point holes in the role. Pretty much what you did, actually, but the entire thing was just a day 1 gambit, and I don't really hold too much stock by it.

It seems scummy to me that at the beginning of the game, Undo randomly vote for Primate, and that after, Primate chooses Undo for trying to make the game moving. Can you explain that or is it just a coincidence?

Yep. We are both scum buddies, doing our very best to point out how scummy the other one is, making a special effort to make sure the other gets lynched. Because, as we all know, pre-organised attacks like this happen all the time, as opposed, to, ooh, never?

My vote was not that random. Primate has put a person at lynch -4 with no reason, so I voted for him.

How is this scummy?

How do you know, have you talked to him?

Because C.E.M knows I'm not utterly retarded.

In Day 1, putting someone at lynch-4 with no reason is as suspicious as putting someone at lynch-1 in any other day. Would you rather have random voting during 5 pages in a row?

Why is putting someone at -4 today on day 1 just as suspicious as -1 any other day?

You need to actually start backing up some of your comments, or at least saying why you think such things, instead of stating things as fact, undo.

I am going to agree with this. For that reason I am going to keep my vote on Primate, not only because monkeys are scary, but because of his suspiciously scummy "Tactics".

Again, why? You don't just get away with "his tactics are scummy cuz I say so".

[Primate]

C.E.M should be C.G.S

[someone2]

Someone2 wrote:
It seems scummy to me that at the beginning of the game, Undo randomly vote for Primate, and that after, Primate chooses Undo for trying to make the game moving. Can you explain that or is it just a coincidence?
Yep. We are both scum buddies, doing our very best to point out how scummy the other one is, making a special effort to make sure the other gets lynched. Because, as we all know, pre-organised attacks like this happen all the time, as opposed, to, ooh, never?

That's not what I wished to say. From the beggining of the game you and Undo seems to be distancing yourselves so that if one of the two is known guilty, the other one would look more innocent. As I know you're experienced in mafia games, I'm sure you knew what I was talking about, because it's a well known tactic of the scums. Weren't you trying to avoid the question?

unvote Bob700

Vote: Primate

[Primate]

Someone2 wrote:
It seems scummy to me that at the beginning of the game, Undo randomly vote for Primate, and that after, Primate chooses Undo for trying to make the game moving. Can you explain that or is it just a coincidence?
Yep. We are both scum buddies, doing our very best to point out how scummy the other one is, making a special effort to make sure the other gets lynched. Because, as we all know, pre-organised attacks like this happen all the time, as opposed, to, ooh, never?

That's not what I wished to say. From the beggining of the game you and Undo seems to be distancing yourselves so that if one of the two is known guilty, the other one would look more innocent. As I know you're experienced in mafia games, I'm sure you knew what I was talking about, because it's a well known tactic of the scums. Weren't you trying to avoid the question?

unvote Bob700

Vote: Primate

That's what I was getting at. If you can come up with any example of two members of a scumgroup agreeing to get into an argument the night before, then following through, I will concede your point.

Seriously, it never happens. Overly paranoid people just think it does. Feel free to prove me wrong.

[Cum Grano Salis]

He wouldn't vote Yakult if he had a guilty result on you.

How do you know, have you talked to him?

I believe he wouldn't do that because it was plainly too obvious it wasn't true. It was really easy to see he was teasing Undo and fishing for reactions, because cop would not vote for someone random and then just switch to the one he found guilty in his next post.

You can't deny that asking "Undo, do you think it a likely thing for scum to do, to come out with a fake cop guilty result result day 1?" is WIFOM. And WIFOM logic is used many times by scum.

Yes, his question could be WIFOM, but in these circumstances it is just ridiculous to say so. You can't automatically say WIFOM=Scum, you should check the context. And in this context, he is right. Why would he do it the way he did if he was scum? -Only to get a townie lynched, right? Do you seriously think he would do that in order to get a townie-lynch? If he succeeded he would be lynched next day! So that it isn't a scum-technique here, and doesn't make Primate scum.

If Primate would say that the fact he did it anyway confirms him as innocent,

that

would be WIFOM, but that's not the case.

In short, Primate's actions so far don't give us an indication of his alignment. But Undo's reaction is kinda scummy.

Clarify please: is the "lynch-4" a joke?

In Day 1, putting someone at lynch-4 with no reason is as suspicious as putting someone at lynch-1 in any other day. Would you rather have random voting during 5 pages in a row?

I think I see your point. If your argument for that claim is "better than random voting", then you probably mean not "suspicious", but "deserving a vote". Yes, you are right, as much deserving a vote as the quantity of digits in a player's name. Still, it is quite the same as random, however you call that. It's good for getting the game going, but it's not a real argument.


Oh, and I still think that someone2 might have a point, though it's too early in the game to identify a connection.

[undo]

You need to actually start backing up some of your comments, or at least saying why you think such things, instead of stating things as fact, undo

OK OK sorry! Don't get mad with me please. I don't want to distress anybody.

I could chase someone down for two days, ripping apart their every argument, exposing every weakness in their stance, and have them turn up scum, and under the logic you put forward here, I could simply be a mafioso 'wifoming' my way into looking town.

I've never said that. I've just said that this question: "do you think it a likely thing for scum to do, to come out with a fake cop guilty result result day 1?" was WIFOM, because no axiom can be set up by "likely actions" in a mafia game.

I expected you, as town, to become fairly concerned about the fact you were likely the lynch of the day, maybe accept it, maybe explode, or maybe fight it. As scum, I would expect you to discredit me by calling me scum, or point holes in the role.

I didn't become concerned because I knew something was wrong in your logic. So I fought it, didn't I? I presented the only possible alternatives, defending myself. Isn't that fighting? I didn't call you scum, I said there were 33% chances you were scum.

Why is putting someone at -4 today on day 1 just as suspicious as -1 any other day?

I mean that, in random voting phase, anything can be used as a justification for casting a vote. When I saw your vote on yakult, I thought 'Hmm.. Why is he casting the second vote on a person, when we are in random vote phase and he can vote whoever else he wants? I'll vote him because I haven't got more suspicions and we need to pass random voting phase'. Don't you agree that random voting phase must be left as soon as possible?

As I know you're experienced in mafia games

I'm not.

[undo]

Yes, his question could be WIFOM, but in these circumstances it is just ridiculous to say so. You can't automatically say WIFOM=Scum, you should check the context. And in this context, he is right. Why would he do it the way he did if he was scum? -Only to get a townie lynched, right? Do you seriously think he would do that in order to get a townie-lynch? If he succeeded he would be lynched next day! So that it isn't a scum-technique here, and doesn't make Primate scum.

I didn't automatically say WIFOM=Scum. But I don't like his attitude. Why had he the necessity of lying?

But Undo's reaction is kinda scummy.

Why is that, won't you tell me?

I think I see your point. If your argument for that claim is "better than random voting", then you probably mean not "suspicious", but "deserving a vote". Yes, you are right, as much deserving a vote as the quantity of digits in a player's name. Still, it is quite the same as random, however you call that. It's good for getting the game going, but it's not a real argument.

It's not a real argument, but it's surely better than voting because of the quantity of digits in a player's name. But yeah, that's what I meant. Sorry about the bad English.

Oh, and I still think that someone2 might have a point, though it's too early in the game to identify a connection.

Nonsense.

[Cum Grano Salis]

I didn't automatically say WIFOM=Scum. But I don't like his attitude. Why had he the necessity of lying?

I guess he did it to get reactions. And he sure got them. That what you usually do at the beginning of the game, fish for reactions.

But Undo's reaction is kinda scummy.

Why is that, won't you tell me?

You were really frightened for someone innocent, and throwing ridiculous (for my taste) accusations. I think that if you were less tensed you would see he was just checking you. Or maybe you saw that, but preffered to treat it as if it was scummy.

And saying things like:

can you please state how precisely you think I have slipped?

You probably thought that, if you lied and said you had a guilty cop result on me, I would become troubled. But now I turn the tables on you, and you look the most suspicious person right now (especially with your new WIFOM statement).

Why would a scum want you to become troubled? They would say you are guilty so they can lynch you, not to get you troubled. Mafia wants the town not to be troubled about them, but about other pro-towns. Town wants to get people troubled, because that's how you see that someone is scum.

And what about:

You need to actually start backing up some of your comments, or at least saying why you think such things, instead of stating things as fact, undo

OK OK sorry! Don't get mad with me please. I don't want to distress anybody.

What's that supposed to be? He didn't say anything aggressive! Why are you that concerned with distressing someone?

It's not a real argument, but it's surely better than voting because of the quantity of digits in a player's name. But yeah, that's what I meant. Sorry about the bad English.

Yeah, well your English is no worse than mine. Whatever the case with that may be, why is voting someone who put a second vote at this stage is so good? Do you think scums are more likely to put a second vote at this stage? And why?

At the moment I am happy with my vote, if we are concidered out of the random voting phase. And thanks for the vote counts by the way, Bob700.
Watch him closely guys, make sure he puts your vote in the right place

[Bob700]

Hmm... After re-reading the beginning of the commotion, I can see that Primate probably was actually just trying to start up the game... That caused undo to go on a paranoid rampage of some sort. Like Someone2 said, it could easily be a back and forth OMGUS kind of thing.

So for that,

Unvote

. There is also a possiblity that undo is simply trying to act as paranoid as possible to get most suspisions off of him, and on to Primate. And so far, it has seemed to be working for a few.

Chances are, he/she could be scum.

Vote: Undo

[undo]

I guess he did it to get reactions. And he sure got them. That what you usually do at the beginning of the game, fish for reactions.

Well, I'm fishing much reactions from you and Primate.

Why would a scum want you to become troubled?

If I became troubled, people would think I was scum and vote for me instead.

What's that supposed to be? He didn't say anything aggressive! Why are you that concerned with distressing someone?

Yeah, he wasn't aggressive, but he was assertive. He bolded his sentence and all that. I just wanted to clarify that I don't want people to get mad at me.

why is voting someone who put a second vote at this stage is so good? Do you think scums are more likely to put a second vote at this stage? And why?

I don't really know, I think that casting a vote on someone because of his nickname is a little more innocent than casting a second vote on someone.

There is also a possiblity that undo is simply trying to act as paranoid as possible to get most suspisions off of him, and on to Primate. And so far, it has seemed to be working for a few.

I'm not acting paranoid. I'm over-enthusiastic. What's the problem with that? Better to be an over-enthusiastic than a lurker.

[xyzzy]

I'm tempted to vote for Primate; lynch all liars.

But he seems safe, so I'll keep my OMGUs for now.

[undo]

What do you mean, he seems safe?

[Bob700]

Yes, what do you mean... "He seems safe" is not a complete thought.

[Cum Grano Salis]

Well, I'm fishing much reactions from you and Primate.

I am happy with my reaction. And getting reactions is not the same as getting scummy reactions, if that's what you imply. You fish for reactions and then look who acts scummy.

Why would a scum want you to become troubled?

If I became troubled, people would think I was scum and vote for me instead.

Who is WIFOMing now? 'Don't think I am scum because I am troubled! It's exactly what they want you to think! They want me to be troubled so people think I am scum.' <== It wasn't sarcasm, it was a demonstration. And I know you didn't say it in one sentence/one post like that, but that's what I gather from what you say.

Yeah, he wasn't aggressive, but he was assertive. He bolded his sentence and all that. I just wanted to clarify that I don't want people to get mad at me.

Ahm. Sounds weak to me.

why is voting someone who put a second vote at this stage is so good? Do you think scums are more likely to put a second vote at this stage? And why?

I don't really know, I think that casting a vote on someone because of his nickname is a little more innocent than casting a second vote on someone.

Do you remember what are we talking about? You said your vote on Primate wasn't random, but because of his bandwagon vote. I am afraid that I misunderstand you or something. Are you saying that your second vote on Primate was less innocent than all of the other random, name-based, monkey-scared votes?
Anyway we get entangled in semantics here. I agree: non-random vote on Day 1 should be less questioned than non-random vote on other days.

What do you mean, he seems safe?

I'll second that! What safety of him was that xyzzy, that made you resist the temptation to vote him?

[StallingChamp]

The Welcome Back, Mod, VoteCount!

Undo (3) - Cum Grano Salis, Primate, Bob700

Primate (2) – undo, someone2
Bob700 (1) - Bird1111
someone2 (1) – yakult
xyzzy (1) – Streeflo
Cum Grano Salis (1) – Aimee
Streeflo (1) – xyzzy

Not Voting (2) - {BiC}Zeus

6 to lynch

Note - Red text indicates at least half of a majority.

[xyzzy]

He seems to be working for the good of the town, even though it may be risky. In the end, his debate with undo could be very helpful.

But, then again, if he's scum, he would know the risk better, which hurts his credibility...

What to do... what to do.

[b[Unvote
Vote: Primate[/b]

[xyzzy]

Erm... that should be

Unvote
Vote: Primate

[Aimee]

Erm... that should be

Unvote
Vote: Primate

Could you explain this, please? I don't really understand your reasoning because:

1) You seem pretty indecisive in your post. After being indecisive, why put on a vote?
2) You just said that Primate's actions were "for the good of the town" and "could be helpful". Why did you put a vote on him, then?

FoS: xyzzy

[Aimee]

OK OK sorry! Don't get mad with me please. I don't want to distress anybody.

This is just the type of reaction that the town was looking for. A panicky, pressured post which just screams weakness.

FoS: undo