Open 223 - Bird 7/The Jedi Assassins - Game Over!

[Karma]

If it gets later in the game when deadline is approaching, then yeah, defindently put a person as L-1 if they're scummy enough to deserve it. However, this is the very first calender day of Day 1 and we have almost no information to work on. Putting someone at L-1 this early in the game could be responsible for causing a mishammer. Thus we go into Day 2 with almost nothing to go on. That's why putting someone at L-1 this early can be considered a good reason for concern.

What don't you understand about no half-intelligent town OR scum would drop a hammer on page 2?

Oh, and more dodging of my question. Heh.

Oh noes, you don't like how I'm voting?!?!

He's not reading the thread, changing his story and avoiding posting any kind of content; why the the frowny face about people voting him?

Because I happen to believe that the lack of vote was an honest mistake. You (and NS) jumping all over him for that I don't like.

Vote Count:

(2) OpposedForce - (Nobody Specia, TheButtonmenl)
(1) horrordude0215 - (Super Smash Bros. Fan)
TheButtonmen
Panacea
Copper
(2) Super Smash Bros. Fan - (horrordude0215, Opposed Force)
Nobody Special

Super Smash Bros. Fan is at L-1!!!

With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch.

[Karma]

The very next post you suddenly magically remember why I was voting you and try to dismiss everything as a joke? Why the sudden 180?

Hey can you explain this because I believe the post you were referring to was directed at SSBF

[TheButtonmen]

The inital jump on was because he was clearly not reading the thread, the vote now is because of his play, not because of the inital incident.

You wana place a vote?

[TheButtonmen]

The very next post you suddenly magically remember why I was voting you and try to dismiss everything as a joke? Why the sudden 180?

Hey can you explain this because I believe the post you were referring to was directed at SSBF

He stated that I'm being mean and putting him at L-1 solely because he placed SSBF at L-1.

Lets break that down; to start off with this was yet another demonstration of him not reading the thread.

A) I was voting him before he voted SSBF.
B) He was at L-2
C) I already explained why I was voting him.

Yet in his next post he acknowledged that he realised that people were voting him because of his failure to read the thread. Now compare that to his previous post where he went out of his way to explain that I was being a hypocritical meanie and voting him soley because of his vote for SSBF.

[Karma]

The very next post you suddenly magically remember why I was voting you and try to dismiss everything as a joke? Why the sudden 180?

Hey can you explain this because I believe the post you were referring to was directed at SSBF

He stated that I'm being mean and putting him at L-1 solely because he placed SSBF at L-1.

Lets break that down; to start off with this was yet another demonstration of him not reading the thread.

A) I was voting him before he voted SSBF.
B) He was at L-2
C) I already explained why I was voting him.

Yet in his next post he acknowledged that he realised that people were voting him because of his failure to read the thread. Now compare that to his previous post where he went out of his way to explain that I was being a hypocritical meanie and voting him soley because of his vote for SSBF.

I understand, but I think this can be explained because of you having to re-vote because you didn't unvote. You did this right after he voted SSBF and put him at L-1. If you were somewhat skimming the thread I can see how that could be misinterpreted.

On a similar note, why do you consider skimming the thread such a major scumtell? I think it falls under the same category as lurking - annoying and hard to deal with, but not a scumtell.

You wana place a vote?

It'll come.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Do you think I'm stupid? Give me an example of when someone has gotten quickhammered on page 2. I know they're bad for town, by the way. Nobody would come in and hammer you now, especially when the vote count clearly states "SSBF is at L-1!" So you didn't answer my question, essentially. What are you really nervous about.

Example of a very early quick hammer:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 60#1772760 - Day 1, Page 1
Yeah, accidents do happen and they aren't pretty. Oh and the person that got lynched was town.

Also, to answer your question, what I'm nervous about is getting quick lynched without being able to defend myself or at least claim, like if it's done intentionally by scums or by an uninformed townie. Wouldn't be surprise if one other person thought this way.

Well that's just about the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

*facepalm*
I actually re-read Page 1 to see what happen. Why was it dumb? It looks like a pretty legitimate scum tell from my perspective.

Bah, I didn't see the time on the mod post saying D1 started this morning. Ignore that. But the last part of your post is bad bad bad - just because the game just started doesn't mean there's nothing to talk about.

There are times where pre-game is enough to start making informed vote, but is it very rare. Most of the time, it's basically us confirming our roles, that's it. Some mods may not even have a pre-game. On most Day one's, we usually have almost no information to go on, thus not enough to make an informed vote.

What don't you understand about no half-intelligent town OR scum would drop a hammer on page 2?

Oh, and more dodging of my question. Heh.

Like I said, an uninformed townie (Or worse a scum who knows what they're doing) can quick hammer, either intentionally or by accident. It can happen, I've already given an example above.

Oh and I already answered your question in this post.

[Karma]

Hey SSBF you know what I just realized?

When you got put at "L-1" you weren't really at L-1, on account of TBM's misvote. It was just L-2. Then you get mad at OF for skimming. Funny.

It looks like a pretty legitimate scum tell from my perspective.

Do explain please.

There are times where pre-game is enough to start making informed vote, but is it very rare. Most of the time, it's basically us confirming our roles, that's it. Some mods may not even have a pre-game. On most Day one's, we usually have almost no information to go on, thus not enough to make an informed vote.

I don't appreciate the condescencion. So you're saying you don't think you can scumhunt early in the game? Are you refusing to scumhunt/making excuses for others' refusals to scumhunt?

That seals the deal. 1 scum caught.

vote: SSBF

Oh noes L-1

[TheButtonmen]

Oh noes L-1

Oh Snap.

[Karma]

I'd actually like everyone voting/suspecting OF to answer this:

why do you consider skimming the thread such a major scumtell? I think it falls under the same category as lurking - annoying and hard to deal with, but not a scumtell.

[Karma]

Hey SSBF we can do this the easy way or the hard way.

Easy way - Claim scum now and bow out with some dignity

Hard way - hopelessly try and defend yourself until we end up lynching you in a week or so

Which is it gonna be?

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Hey SSBF you know what I just realized?

When you got put at "L-1" you weren't really at L-1, on account of TBM's misvote. It was just L-2. Then you get mad at OF for skimming. Funny.

Technically, because TheButtonmen did not unvote me, I was at L-1. That accustion is invalid.

Do explain please.

Explaination below:

Post #19 (By OpposedForce): OpposedForce suggest a bandwagon on horrordude0215. He later said he wasn't serious, but if he was serious about voting Horrordude0215, he should have voted him.

Post #20 (By TheButtonmen): TheButtonmen calls him out for not voting horrordude0215 even thought he propose a bandwagon on him.

Post #21 (By OpposedForce): Response to TheButtonmen by quoting a pre-game vote, which I find as a pretty bad response.

Post #22 (By TheButtonmen): TheButtonmen votes OpposedForce for not reading the thread.

The scummy posts are from OpposedForce (#19 isn't really scummy, but #21 is). The counter attacks mainly came from TheButtonmen.

I don't appreciate the condescencion. So you're saying you don't think you can scumhunt early in the game? Are you refusing to scumhunt/making excuses for others' refusals to scumhunt?

I'm not saying that at all. As a matter of fact, I'm always trying to scum hunt at any time. The reason why I made that statement is because it is very difficult to make serious votes when there's almost no information in the game.

Easy way - Claim scum now and bow out with some dignity

That's a terrible suggestion. You will get absolutely no dignity from claiming scum. It means you gave up and that's really anti-town.

Hard way - hopelessly try and defend yourself until we end up lynching you in a week or so

Even if I get lynched Day 1, I'd rather go the hard way because it shows that I at least put forth some effort into saving myself. Plus you get a lot more dignity that way then giving up.

[Karma]

Post #21 (By OpposedForce): Response to TheButtonmen by quoting a pre-game vote, which I find as a pretty bad response.

Why?

More question dodging. You sure you don't want to claim scum? We'll find your buddy tomorrow anyways.

[Copper]

I have a couple of questions for you, Karma.

Firstly, what do you think about OpposedForce?

Secondly, why is fearing a quickhammer while at L-1 scummy? Yes, it's certainly true that a page two quickhammer virtually never happens, and so being randomly placed to that position is no danger. But dial it back another step. You're asserting that a player should not be nervous as town when at L-1, because the chance that this will be converted to action is virtually nil.

But you also said:

Like a scum would ever quickhammer you on page 2. Why are you so nervous there, scum?

Why would a scum player be more nervous in this situation? Either you understand that early wagons do not lead to page two quickhammers (in which case you keep your cool regardless of alignment) or you don't (in which case you're nervous regardless of alignment.) You seem to be suggesting that scum and only scum would be nervous at a quick L-1, which simply doesn't make any sense.

[Nobody Special]

Sheesh I make one mistake and suddenly I'm the bad guy.

You're pulling the "It's Not Fair!" card in front of us. If you've commited a scum tell, you've commited a scum tell, there's no way around it.

I'm not going to vote you because the game just started and voting you would put you at L-1, but I will do a

FomS

on you.

Wait. Does an obviously scummy action somehow magically CHANGE as the day goes on?

I do understand the need for discussion (and I'm not saying LYNCHNOWNOWNOW) but, seriously, if you see a guy stabbing another guy, what more proof do you

need??

Hi. I'm Karma. I'm gonna single-handedly win this for town, btw.

No, you aren't. You're either scum playing to win, or town -- working together with all of us townies -- playing to win.

How was OF skimming? was there something I missed?

Seriously? Okay, look. I know you just replaced in. BUT WE'RE ON PAGE 2 [at the time of this post I'm quoting] FOR THE LOVE OF MIKE. Are you going to be useless the whole game? If so, let me know now.

Oh, and welcome to the game!!

---

As mentioned in TBM's post 43, OF is digging himself deeper. And deeper. I'd give you a shovel, but...

---

Take me less seriously.

And me, as well.

Nobody would come in and hammer you now,

Just pointing out the ambiguity here. You'll get used to it. (Resistance is futile, close cover before striking, blahblah, etc.)

Well that's just about the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Stick around. I have confidence it'll get worse before it gets better.

SSBS why the issues with being / putting people to L-1?

If it gets later in the game when deadline is approaching, then yeah, defindently put a person as L-1 if they're scummy enough to deserve it. However, this is the very first calender day of Day 1 and we have almost no information to work on. Putting someone at L-1 this early in the game could be responsible for causing a mishammer. Thus we go into Day 2 with almost nothing to go on. That's why putting someone at L-1 this early can be considered a good reason for concern.

Hypothetical for you:

Day 2. Page 28. Obvscum is doing your standard obvscum things.

A) Do you hammer?

B) What do you say (or do) when obvscum flips vanilla town?

Now, try this one:

Day 1. Page 7. Obvscum is doing your standard obvscum things. It's raining outside.

A) Do you hammer?

B) What do you say (or do) when obvscum flips vanilla town?

Now, tell me the difference in those two scenarios

without mentioning the Day or the page number of the thread.

I'd actually like everyone voting/suspecting OF to answer this:

why do you consider skimming the thread such a major scumtell? I think it falls under the same category as lurking - annoying and hard to deal with, but not a scumtell.

Scum have, generally, a less vested interest in scumhunting (for obvious reasons). Since they are not actively scumhunting, they pay less attention to the thread. In paying less attention to the thread, they generally tend to miss key points.

QED.

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Why?

His response to TheButtonmen was basically him quoting a pre-game post. OpposedForce later admitted to not reading the thread, but TheButtonmen called him out first. That post was scummy because he made a pretty poor response by quoting a post that was pre-game.

More question dodging. You sure you don't want to claim scum? We'll find your buddy tomorrow anyways.

I've already answered your question. Here is the answer to your question, RIGHT above the post I'm quoting:

Even if I get lynched Day 1, I'd rather go the hard way because it shows that I at least put forth some effort into saving myself. Plus you get a lot more dignity that way then giving up.

Wait. Does an obviously scummy action somehow magically CHANGE as the day goes on?

No it doesn't, but more recent actions are more important then past actions, although they should never be neglected.

I do understand the need for discussion (and I'm not saying LYNCHNOWNOWNOW) but, seriously, if you see a guy stabbing another guy, what more proof do you need??

I tend to be a little more stable with my serious voting then most people, so it takes me a little while to get a solified read on who I think is acting the scummiest.

Day 2. Page 28. Obvscum is doing your standard obvscum things.
A) Do you hammer?

That depends on how close it is to the deadline. But with the amount of information probably gather from twenty-eight pages, I'd say yeah.

B) What do you say (or do) when obvscum flips vanilla town?

I have a variety of answers, but I'll give my two answers for a seven players set-up:

1. If the person flips Vanilla Townie and no scum was hit Day 1. I would be very disappointed that all my efforts would go to waste, as scum has won.
2. If the person flips Vanilla Townie and one scum was hit Day 1. I would be worried about the town as we know we only have one more shot of hitting scum.

Day 1. Page 7. Obvscum is doing your standard obvscum things. It's raining outside.
A) Do you hammer?

Like before, it depends on the deadline. But unless it was very close to the deadline, no I wouldn't. Information is Town's best friend, next to lynches and we need to gather as much information as possible.

B) What do you say (or do) when obvscum flips vanilla town?

If this was a seven players set-up, I would be concerned. We would have only one more chance of hitting scum, otherwise, scum wins.

Now, tell me the difference in those two scenarios without mentioning the Day or the page number of the thread.

If we've hit no scums Day 1 and we mislynch Day 2, scum wins. If we hit scum Day 1, but mislynch Day 2, we have a lot of information to go on, but town is still at risk for losing. If we hit a townie Day 1, I would be even more concerned because we have not gather nearly as much information to find the other two scums.

[Karma]

I have a couple of questions for you, Karma.

Firstly, what do you think about OpposedForce?

I think he made an honest mistake and you guys are jumping at the chance to hang him for it.

Secondly, why is fearing a quickhammer while at L-1 scummy? Yes, it's certainly true that a page two quickhammer virtually never happens, and so being randomly placed to that position is no danger. But dial it back another step. You're asserting that a player should not be nervous as town when at L-1, because the chance that this will be converted to action is virtually nil.

But you also said:

Like a scum would ever quickhammer you on page 2. Why are you so nervous there, scum?

Why would a scum player be more nervous in this situation? Either you understand that early wagons do not lead to page two quickhammers (in which case you keep your cool regardless of alignment) or you don't (in which case you're nervous regardless of alignment.) You seem to be suggesting that scum and only scum would be nervous at a quick L-1, which simply doesn't make any sense.

I think scum (especially newbscum) are more nervous when they're in danger of getting lynched than town are. If you're mislynched as town, yeah, it sucks, but you can at least have faith in the 5 members left in the town. If you're lynched as scum, it gives you much less of a chance to win.

I've already answered your question. Here is the answer to your question, RIGHT above the post I'm quoting:

I meant about the OF thing.

His response to TheButtonmen was basically him quoting a pre-game post. OpposedForce later admitted to not reading the thread, but TheButtonmen called him out first. That post was scummy because he made a pretty poor response by quoting a post that was pre-game.

I know what happened. I know you think it's scummy. Why do you think it's scummy, or "a pretty poor response"?

Seriously? Okay, look. I know you just replaced in. BUT WE'RE ON PAGE 2 [at the time of this post I'm quoting] FOR THE LOVE OF MIKE. Are you going to be useless the whole game? If so, let me know now.

Yeah, expect me to be pretty useless this game.

Seriously though, I didn't notice the difference between pre-game votes and when the day started. I wasn't around. I didn't get the skimming accustation. Sue me.

NS, do you consider lurking a scumtell?

[Nobody Special]

@Karma: Not always; it depends. Usually.

@SSBF: Thank you.

[Karma]

@NS: What does it depend on? And do you consider SSBF scummy?

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

I meant about the OF thing.

Okay then, I'll answer your question.

Skimming is a scum tell. It shows that either you don't really care about the game and/or missing out on valueable information that could be useful later on.

I know what happened. I know you think it's scummy. Why do you think it's scummy, or "a pretty poor response"?

OpposedForce was skimming his own pre-game post, trying to say to TheButtonmen that he did vote Horrordude0215, but in reality, he didn't because it was pre-game and pre-game votes don't count. This is especially inexcusable because he clearly should have realize it was pre-game.

[Karma]

[quote="SSBF"]
Okay then, I'll answer your question.

Skimming is a scum tell. It shows that either you don't really care about the game and/or missing out on valueable information that could be useful later on. [/b]

So, are you saying that all townies care about the game and read the thread carefully at all times?That only scum skim?

[Nobody Special]

@NS: What does it depend on? And do you consider SSBF scummy?

Circumstances. Yes -- scummish, shall we say. (That's just slightly left of neutral.)

[Karma]

Scummier than OF? Hint: the answer's yes.

[Nobody Special]

I do believe that SSBFF is scummier than OF. I have meta-reasons. ::: jedi hand motions :::

unvote

Vote: SSBFF

[Copper]

Even after that whole L-1 discussion? Even with less than 75 posts? Even with a votecount only a few posts above yours? Even with Karma specifically saying her/his vote was L-1? Even with SSBF making a huge stink over being accidentally hammered?

Sigh.

[Karma]

Was that hammer indeed an accident?