Open 873: PYP: Anime Music & Memes - Game Over!

[fireisredsir]

idk i already regret even mentioning it, sorry. back to the game

[fireisredsir]

ahhhh do 3 wolves really hard shove out std over firebringer when firebringer is dead in the water

[fireisredsir]

mmm i have reread taly and luke and ffery and i don't see anything that makes me feel good about clearing ydra off interactions

it is hard for me to get past knowing that when i entered and (possibly unexpectedly?) had notscience as more town than ydra, and ydra (also probably unexpectedly) had LLD as more likely scum than notscience, those shifts suddenly made ydra a way better 1v1 choice from a scum LLD pov. and then wow it's a miracle a pathway opens up where she is able to flip everything around and suddenly start on that path instead. on reasoning that i don't understand and seems way too weak to justify the change

like she has this whole narrative for why it has to be notscience and then is just willing to drop all that bc she vibed with some of his responses? it doesn't make sense to me. where's the rigor? what makes some reasons strong one minute and then willing to be dropped the next?

on its own maybe that isn't always scummy. but so many of the read shifts have felt opportunistic

[notscience]

I also don’t see why ydra kills bell in this situation

[Ydrasse]

i don’t think i had a big epiphany about notsci, when i woke up and bell was dead i went back to read through the wolf isos it felt like they wake they spoke about notsci and lld were different, because never felt like they engaged in solving lld and then (at least luke) invested time into notty like with his opening when they went back and forth, etc

and then i read notscis iso and felt like it wasn’t really probable that he was able to spend this entire game defending his partners and make it feel so natural. like he very very rarely wavers and even at the end it’s only with ffery. it’s hard to do that i think when both of your partners are suspected.

combined with that and realizing there wasn’t a lot i thought lld was towny for i felt like she was probably a wolf. it felt like she was appealing to me on daystart and had tried to like, idk connect us somehow previously. i also think that her narrative for why notsci is a wolf isn’t great because it’s just like... stuff like relying on the fact we have to assume the wolf team intentionally tried to sandbag themselves and they could carry without roles and he just knew his team would die so he has managed to position himself perfectly when i don’t see that in his iso. the dude rarely does anything other than talk and talk which like. a wolf imo would be more compelled to at least vote and give some substantive proof that he was doing something other than talking up his team all game lol

[Ydrasse]

to be clear though i am reminded of a 3p elo situation (in ydra-modded coalition game) where fmpov roden was flailing wildly and seemed to be jumping all over the place and switching directions and confidence levels in ways that seemed unjustified and didn't make sense as town

and std was responding calmly and rationally and reasonably and by all means seemed like the "correct" one in the interaction

and then roden was town and std was scum (i voted wrong)

i bring this up to say that im somewhat hesitant to put much weight on my own read of this interaction

but i would like to try to see inside your head if you can LLD and like lay out explicitly what you saw in those ydra posts that made you suddenly so confident and why you were willing to completely drop the possibility of notscience being scum

to clarify why i’m kind of just like Okay Lol i literally don’t think there’s any legitimacy behind llds reasoning now and i think it’s just bad. it doesn’t really make me feel like i’m in Trouble or being heavily doubted by town which is probably my biggest emotional peeve

[Ydrasse]

i did start rereading llds iso last night but i suffered from the tired sleepy so i didn’t go deep and start pulling quotes but it puts a lot of little things in retrospect to me, like her trying to leave a small avenue for fb to maybe live based on claims, i think that her unvoting KT on day one was probably vc positioning, her trying to pounce on unwnds drunk wagon on me lol

i don’t think there was a stringent plan for the wolves to win this game beyond “pocket a few people and try to push the other townies”

[Ydrasse]

in retrospect this just makes to me the greyice kill one that was more helpful to lld personally than it was serving a team

[Ydrasse]

also i don’t think i expanded on this but if i feel fairly confident i just vote, i’m not a patient person and whenever people are obvious it’s kind of just the next step to go “okay then” rather than let them posture or position more. it’s a bit careless and egotistical to not let people have more time probably but eh. i’m not wrong here

[Ydrasse]

i feel genuinely gross quoting the posts that made me think lld was town wrt her interactions with luke/taly so i’d prefer not to bring them into the discussion if possible despite needing to acknowledge them as the basis for my read. but they did a decent amount of lifting for my opinion her, especially when i was already being more charitable than everyone else i think because i didn’t see any egregious posting early on and was like, she gets a lot of flak by virtue of reputation and it can be miserable to be pigeonholed into a stereotype of play/expectation

[Lady Lambdadelta]

sorry if that comes off as a strong reaction, reading it again i realize now maybe it was meant to have more of a joking tone than i am seeing, but i have strong reactions to certain things

you're obviously allowed to post whatever you want in the bounds of the rules but just stating how i feel about it. and that it will not advance your wincon. especially relevant if you're town bc i know myself and i know that it will make it harder for me to accept that

it was a joke, i'm not going to flame anyone come on

god

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i feel genuinely gross quoting the posts that made me think lld was town wrt her interactions with luke/taly so i’d prefer not to bring them into the discussion if possible despite needing to acknowledge them as the basis for my read. but they did a decent amount of lifting for my opinion her, especially when i was already being more charitable than everyone else i think because i didn’t see any egregious posting early on and was like, she gets a lot of flak by virtue of reputation and it can be miserable to be pigeonholed into a stereotype of play/expectation

eh?

why would this make you feel gross did i do something wrong lol

[Lady Lambdadelta]

mmm i have reread taly and luke and ffery and i don't see anything that makes me feel good about clearing ydra off interactions

it is hard for me to get past knowing that when i entered and (possibly unexpectedly?) had notscience as more town than ydra, and ydra (also probably unexpectedly) had LLD as more likely scum than notscience, those shifts suddenly made ydra a way better 1v1 choice from a scum LLD pov. and then wow it's a miracle a pathway opens up where she is able to flip everything around and suddenly start on that path instead. on reasoning that i don't understand and seems way too weak to justify the change

like she has this whole narrative for why it has to be notscience and then is just willing to drop all that bc she vibed with some of his responses? it doesn't make sense to me. where's the rigor? what makes some reasons strong one minute and then willing to be dropped the next?

on its own maybe that isn't always scummy. but so many of the read shifts have felt opportunistic

opportunism isn't scummy in final day ELO. again it's more valuable that scum has its shit together

i swapped because i was less confident and because ydra blew up

[Ydrasse]

i feel genuinely gross quoting the posts that made me think lld was town wrt her interactions with luke/taly so i’d prefer not to bring them into the discussion if possible despite needing to acknowledge them as the basis for my read. but they did a decent amount of lifting for my opinion her, especially when i was already being more charitable than everyone else i think because i didn’t see any egregious posting early on and was like, she gets a lot of flak by virtue of reputation and it can be miserable to be pigeonholed into a stereotype of play/expectation

eh?

why would this make you feel gross did i do something wrong lol

no you didn’t but i think that there are some things that probably shouldn’t be made to be discoursed about. it’s... kind of difficult to engage with stuff like talys tr on you to say the least because i feel nasty approaching that.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i feel genuinely gross quoting the posts that made me think lld was town wrt her interactions with luke/taly so i’d prefer not to bring them into the discussion if possible despite needing to acknowledge them as the basis for my read. but they did a decent amount of lifting for my opinion her, especially when i was already being more charitable than everyone else i think because i didn’t see any egregious posting early on and was like, she gets a lot of flak by virtue of reputation and it can be miserable to be pigeonholed into a stereotype of play/expectation

eh?

why would this make you feel gross did i do something wrong lol

no you didn’t but i think that there are some things that probably shouldn’t be made to be discoursed about. it’s... kind of difficult to engage with stuff like talys tr on you to say the least because i feel nasty approaching that.

oh

the fact that taly asked me how to play as a plural system and i gave them a straight answer and was a helped plural elder to them?

Yeah, no. that's NAI. I'll do that regardless of alignment. Maybe I say it differently as different alignments but even as scum I'd turn off my manipulation to help with that. It's fine to discourse it, it's fine.

[notscience]

I still don’t see a town LLD world where bell is the kill lol

[Ydrasse]

okay if it’s fine then, my main reason that i thought it was like, a good look/unaligned was that taly explicitly made that into a point to kinda tr you (even though in their read post they waffled a lot and ended up with you basically nowhere/nothing said) and i felt like wolves wouldn’t want to rely on something like that to townread one another. it’s... unsporting i guess.

similarly with luke there was a moment where he was like oh don’t townread me for that please i’d rather be wolfread which i felt was also another instance of “wolves don’t do this do they?”

i think it’s a matter of me inserting more of what i think is “”””moral”””” play that i assume wolves might feel off put about but really aren’t in the same vein i try to decipher replacements or heavy ate

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I still don’t see a town LLD world where bell is the kill lol

Ydra definitely kills bell here though. She can't kill you or I, and she never kills Fire over Bell.

[Ydrasse]

that feels like you’re just making things up over your own assumptions lol

[notscience]

I think if I kill anyone it would prob be ydra who no one else seemed interested in voting

I think firesir would prob do the same bc it keeps bell alive distracted by both you and I more than him

I think ydra prob kills firesir for similar reasons to firesir killing ydra

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I think if I kill anyone it would prob be ydra who no one else seemed interested in voting

I think firesir would prob do the same bc it keeps bell alive distracted by both you and I more than him

I think ydra prob kills firesir for similar reasons to firesir killing ydra

right but i also benefit from firered being dead over bell. like the logic applies to me too, you're just ignoring that >.>

infact no one benefits from FR being dead MORE than me lol

[fireisredsir]

but i would like to try to see inside your head if you can LLD and like lay out explicitly what you saw in those ydra posts that made you suddenly so confident and why you were willing to completely drop the possibility of notscience being scum

this is still what im looking for LLD, if you don't mind

i don't see the ydra blowup and nothing from her looks really very out of place in that interaction to me

so it's hard for me to understand where you're coming from on this without more clarity on what you saw that i am not seeing

i am willing to try to understand but i need more

[Lady Lambdadelta]

but i would like to try to see inside your head if you can LLD and like lay out explicitly what you saw in those ydra posts that made you suddenly so confident and why you were willing to completely drop the possibility of notscience being scum

this is still what im looking for LLD, if you don't mind

i don't see the ydra blowup and nothing from her looks really very out of place in that interaction to me

so it's hard for me to understand where you're coming from on this without more clarity on what you saw that i am not seeing

i am willing to try to understand but i need more

oh, missed that sorry

[Lady Lambdadelta]

yeah i can walk you through my thought process at each post, one second

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Somehow I don’t think your competitive edge would let you do that tbh but I digress

You might be right. ahahha

Ydra, let's say I'm town here, because I am but for your PoV let's just say.... we no eliminate and scum shoots me for some reason.

The town decides you have to be the one to cast a vote in ELO between fire and notty. Who's scum?

So starting here, prior to this I had been pushing Notty and Notty's replies, I try to ignore scum usually and just push them but Notty had been kind of swaying me. It was the post that I responded to above, that made me sort of feel like. "Notty's too relax, is notty really scum here" and the transparency vs story telling talk... it felt a lot like town saying "okay scumfuck come at me you lose" and I'm like... well if I'm getting that vibe, is he town here?

so I decided with the second post to give a check on Ydra who came into today just hard on me like, hey let's see what she does if she's asked to name someone who she suspects in a world I'm town in. It's a really easy check for townies who are evaluating likelyhoods in their head all the time. Scum, on the other hand usually don't want to upset the delicate status quo by saying something that gets them looked at by the townies they're trying to use. So I figure, I'll poke Ydra, see what she does

i think, atp, this biggest problem i have with notsci being scum is how he has spent literally the entire game defending both wolves and only wavering in tiny, tiny bits but for the most part going back to "this is town" and then treating the game like, yeah, those people were town. it doesn't really feel tmi. s: it just feels like time was invested by other slots into pocketing him or having fun with him

i genuinely don't see him as the type of player that would do something that egregious and that consistent throughout the entire game without it coming across as... weird or fake? like i sit here and think, does wolf notsci open this game with "taly is BORING but this isnt wolfy teehee im reversing my read based off of 10 games of meta". in this game. i mean like i guess if hes a wolf no one expects it and it works but it is a very tough burden to bear to defend your team in this playerlist, let alone do it while intentionally sandbagging yourselves by picking the same number for a gambit's sake. and then he barely even votes skimming the vote counts meaning he's just like letting everything... wash over him this game and wherever the tides go he goes, there's not a real agenda

like it doesn't make sense to me unless he is playing an absolutely fantastic game.

otoh i feel like i'm defaulting to lld wolf because she... fits the best...? it's hard to point at anything in particular that i think is wolfy beyond some vcs, and a vague ~~feeling~~ which i don't want to go deeper on because it's just a feeling that i can't even verbalize. i guess it could be one of those my gut is right moments and i don't need to explain if i just know it but that is just. -_- i don't... think it's notsci and i don't think that it's fire so i'm just shrugging. and i'm sorry lld but i read your posts about notsci but it doesn't compel me to vote him.

..actually i can verbalize a bit of it i think, it feels like you've tried to pocket me a little bit or tie us together in the past day? there was a point where you kind of shouldered in (jokingly with the braincell thing) to start a conversation which felt... weird to me when it happened, like a "huh okay then" sort of thing, and i feel like you've picked me to appeal to this game because i've been townreading you for a good portion of it verbally/willing to give you more benefit than the rest of the plist. i don't know.

p-edit: lol timely pedit. i don't know. it's hard to think about a world that wouldn't really exist in this gamestate so i can't give you a great answer. i think that fire has marginally more reason to keep me alive in that world and that's about it.

This reply here, I'm pretty sure I later call it open wolfing, because that's what it feels like. It starts with all these semi baked takes about how it's hard to see you or Notsci as scum here and then does a similar half baked hand wavey excuse to find me scum, but it's a LOT of words on these things that say nothing. Culminated with the line I said I was afraid of seeing today, unshocklingly.

The response to me, in comparisson is short and deflective. Ydra knows I didn't literally mean if scum would actually kill me this game. So the response of "never happening, lul" is just a deflection. You can SEE how she knows this because then she says "I guess Notty would be weird for X reason"

When all i was asking was "hey, I'm town, who is scum here if I'm town?" and she can't even answer that. Even "you're scum so the question is invalid" would have been more townie. Frustrating, but townie. Instead this deflection was like an attempt to keep the world the same.

and any time I feel someone is trying to keep the world the same, I think they might be evil.

...

twitch

so not only did you do the specific thing i highlighted

you also answered the question i asked in the singularly least helpful way as if to give as little info as possible.

and your end read result on me is "lld just feels right".

so I twitch and respond with this, hoping to get some reactions

Ydra you haven't said one (1) thing about me that is scummy all game. That includes today.

And now, as town, I'm supposed to buy that you went from uncertainty to confident over "vibes" and "notty would have to be playing this well"

you came into today sayign you wanted to vote me right out and you've not provided a single statement that has backed up that much confidence in ANY real way.

Fuck me dude

if this is real then i'm definitely fucked

but there are whole reasons you can't be scum

and yet you're literally open wolfing in front of my eyes

and then just let my thought process that exists above kind of flow in real time through these posts. You can see I kind of come to the realization of "wait if it's Ydra I'm fucked" and then "wait but there are reasons you can't be scum, but this isn't town".

So I'm trying to solve it at this point, when Ydra explodes, calls me scum, attacks every inch of my suspicion even in ways that don't make a whole lot of sense as an attack, and then votes me.

It is hard for me, as a player, to view that as anything but a scumclaim. Not only because as a townie, if Ydra is park voting me now because I suspected her even slightly, I am obligated to cross or lose, regardless of her alignment.

But also because the reaction and vote in that manner was such an oversell of a simple suspicion on her that it has to come from scum. The goal of Ydra's emotional oversell was to make others feel that I was acting absurdly somehow. That my flip onto Ydra was somehow calculated or scummy when in reality it was a very mild suspicion to begin, a gut check on someone that I had earlier in the day, when somenoe asked me "why can't it be ydra" I tried to answer, came up with some reasons but felt like I was arguing against a wall in my own mind. Like, I had sold myself on Notty but "why cna't it be ydra" was a hard answer to provide, but provided it I did because I was focused on directing everything at Notty. It doesn't do to speculate when you have scum under your boot.

Only when notty looked more town did that doubt re-seep back in, and thus i gave a little hip check and got back a WAVE of anger and a flurry of activity.

Reminiscent of when Unwnd pushed Ydra, infact.

So that's where I'm at. It was a simple check and balance to ensure my own sanity based on a question someome asked me earlier that I could only really do if I had any doubt about Notty scum, which came up about when Notty and I were talking so I checked it out and got huge feedback in return, which led me to this point.