I think your wording was at least slightly ambiguous, but ok. If I'm not following the flow, I'm either misreading or it doesn't follow my own logic. I don't see what's wrong with figuring out which of the two it is. From my experience here so far, it seems I'm doing a pretty decent amount of fact checking compared to others, so..In post 474, Thor665 wrote:Actually I said *some* of them deserved heat.In post 472, qubixes wrote:You said you disagreed that the players on the list didn't deserve the heat, which seems to contradict you defending me and saying Mal's lynch is lame.
If you're going to debate me can we please fact check your comments so I don't have to start every rebuttal pointing out that you're not following the flow logically?
1. I'm not attributing a scum motive. If you read my post to Aeronaut, I'm currently not sure on you or flubber. The most important part is that I'm trying to find out is why you have that particular perception of Ecane getting undeserved heat. I'm (currently) not doubting you actually believing that, regardless of either of your alignments. I find that matching perceptions like these can be a useful way to find out whether another player is town, and admittedly a little less useful in figuring out whether the player is scum. I think it is kind of weird though you're going "what? are you scumreading me" for the second time, when I'm not actually doing so. Is my line of question weird or something?
1. Why does that matter? Like, what's the scum motive you're attributing to me here? If I'm *defending* her because she's my scumbuddy - then I think she's being attacked. If I'm *defending* her because I'm scum and want freebie town points for protecting town then I think she's being attacked...so...?
2. Yes, I do think so, and yes I disagree with you. I would think that was pretty clear already - since I'm not calling her scummy.
3. Because she isn't doing anything scummy, and multiple other people are. Why do you think she's scum? Apparently for tone or something, which means you're attacking her off your feels rather than a valid reason, which is undeserved heat. Huzzah - we have made the circle.
I'm currently testing itDo you agree with it?In post 472, qubixes wrote:Well, I didn't come up with that presumption (stole it from someone more experienced than me), but if you disagree, ok.
. It's something that makes sense to me intuitively. Though, I feel like I need more experience to see (as with every scum tell) in which situation/person it has actual merit. I also feel I might be using it a bit "inside-out", where it might be more useful to find (specific) town and not scum.I meant that a lot of players are doing it this game specifically, and yes it means that some town players are doing that in this game, which makes this game feel rather stale.If it's non-alingment indicative, why are we talking about it?In post 472, qubixes wrote: And yes, unfortunately a lot of players are doing this, I agree. Creature seemed to be one of the few that actively was adjusting his reads on the fly. Doesn't make the action less scummy though, just better at blending in with the rest.
If scum do it to blend in, that means town does it, and then it's stupid to use it in a case, yeah?
The thing that makes me worried about Flubber flipping town is mostly the way he has been defending himself I think. It just seems so ineffective at actually accomplishing something (i.e. relieving the pressure). It's like every time he just digs the hole deeper without any actual need to do so. I just don't see the motivation for that as scum, but of course he could just be scum messing around.. It is like every time he reacts, he just sees the thing right in front of him, losing the bigger picture, which I feel as scum he should have because he actually knows the alignments. I tried finding some games of him, but I found only like 10 town games... (In which he did sound a bit different.) Logic wise I agree with you for the most part, but I'm just not feeling scum!flubber (yet). That's also why I would like N_M to explain his "one of the two must be scum" reasoning, because I don't see any evidence this cannot be TvT. So far this game, getting anything out of him is a rather pointless exercise though.In post 476, Thor665 wrote:Of the current two vote wagons, I oppose the one on me and qubixes and support the one on Flubber.
I would compromise for an N_M.
I'd love some other people to weigh in with wagon thoughts - or at least state that they are utterly on standstill waiting for the replacement.
My wording was not ambiguous for your statement that I was calling them all of them deserved heat.In post 477, qubixes wrote:I think your wording was at least slightly ambiguous, but ok. If I'm not following the flow, I'm either misreading or it doesn't follow my own logic. I don't see what's wrong with figuring out which of the two it is. From my experience here so far, it seems I'm doing a pretty decent amount of fact checking compared to others, so..
1. Yes, I think it is - if you're not trying to attack her and you're not trying to attack me but want to understand why I think she is being unduly attacked because you very slightly disagree about whether she is or is not being attacked I'm left to wonder the point of it all unless your goal is to understand why I think the attacks on her are silly/undeserved - in which case you're going about your questioning in a very strange why asking me to justify that attacks have happened as opposed to asking me why I dislike them.In post 477, qubixes wrote:1. I'm not attributing a scum motive. If you read my post to Aeronaut, I'm currently not sure on you or flubber. The most important part is that I'm trying to find out is why you have that particular perception of Ecane getting undeserved heat. I'm (currently) not doubting you actually believing that, regardless of either of your alignments. I find that matching perceptions like these can be a useful way to find out whether another player is town, and admittedly a little less useful in figuring out whether the player is scum. I think it is kind of weird though you're going "what? are you scumreading me" for the second time, when I'm not actually doing so. Is my line of question weird or something?
2. Saying someone is not scummy or towny are two different things in my opinion. I'm kind of surprised that you found her entrance towny. Can you explain why?
3. I feel that since she has been relieved from the pressure, she hasn't really showed much sign of trying to figure the game out. Also looking at her "push" on me, it doesn't look like much, since she has to be asked for reasons while there is/was basically no momentum. Note that I was reading her as town during most of Day 1 as well, but I'm reconsidering that position.
Agreed.In post 477, qubixes wrote:I meant that a lot of players are doing it this game specifically, and yes it means that some town players are doing that in this game, which makes this game feel rather stale.
In post 478, qubixes wrote:The thing that makes me worried about Flubber flipping town is mostly the way he has been defending himself I think. It just seems so ineffective at actually accomplishing something (i.e. relieving the pressure). It's like every time he just digs the hole deeper without any actual need to do so. I just don't see the motivation for that as scum
I don't mean reaching out as trying to determine other players' alignments. I don't recall ever seeing the term used that way. I have seen you literally harass players to vote on one of your wagons and in this game you're not doing that to the slightest extent.In post 446, Thor665 wrote:If you don't care who I have or haven't sorted then why are you complaining that I'm not sorting people? I wasn't the one who started this conversation.
I'll agree Aero isn't acting like one - I didn't say he was.
I'll agree that it takes more than a single interaction - I wasn't aware that I'd claimed I was going to stop, and I'm also not aware that Aero had been back to address my initial interaction yet, so - as usual - this is an empty attack.
This entire post was.
This is not a defense of NM and I have no clue how you are seeing it as such.In post 464, Aeronaut wrote:#86 Flub softdefence of N_M
Stalling lynches while we were low on timeIn post 473, qubixes wrote:Regardless, what is the point of fence sitting on Thor vs flubber for example if I'm scum? Unless you think it's exactly me and flubber as a team?
I agree with you that quibixes has made original thoughts. However, I don't see how his fencesitting implies newb over scum given the timing of itIn post 474, Thor665 wrote:The extent of your case is that he is kind of fencesitting and drifts onto votes.
I see that as a clear suggestion of newb rather than scum.
I also strongly disagree with you that he has failed to offer up unique thoughts and valid opinions that were not part of the social stream - how many do I need to showcase for you to make you believe he's town? One, two, more than five?
I'd also like to see you outline the suspect votes you think he's made and actually explain the scum motive beyond "he was late on the wagon" as you and I both know scum also often occupy the fronts of wagons, and it's all a matter of playstyle - so what makes *his* playstyle the latecomer scum?
There are two alignments in this game. Saying something can find someone as town well while saying it can't determine whether or not they are scum sounds really foot in mouthIn post 477, qubixes wrote:1. I'm not attributing a scum motive. If you read my post to Aeronaut, I'm currently not sure on you or flubber. The most important part is that I'm trying to find out is why you have that particular perception of Ecane getting undeserved heat. I'm (currently) not doubting you actually believing that, regardless of either of your alignments. I find that matching perceptions like these can be a useful way to find out whether another player is town, and admittedly a little less useful in figuring out whether the player is scum. I think it is kind of weird though you're going "what? are you scumreading me" for the second time, when I'm not actually doing so. Is my line of question weird or something?
As long as you ignore me literally doing it to Aero and qubixes before you even created this complaint - sure.In post 485, Flubbernugget wrote:I don't mean reaching out as trying to determine other players' alignments. I don't recall ever seeing the term used that way. I have seen you literally harass players to vote on one of your wagons and in this game you're not doing that to the slightest extent.
Newb is non alignment and scum is alignment - you can't functionally argue them as opposing poles on a grade.In post 485, Flubbernugget wrote:I agree with you that quibixes has made original thoughts. However, I don't see how his fencesitting implies newb over scum given the timing of it
How about the rest of the gameIn post 488, Thor665 wrote:As long as you ignore me literally doing it to Aero and qubixes before you even created this complaint - sure.
Because it is kind of nonsensical? I voted almost every viable wagon Day 1 (You, N_M, mal, Lowell), how is that trying to stall to vote? Yes, as has been noted by Aero, I wasn't the earliest on the wagons, but that was partly me not realizing we wouldn't get more time after the lynch. And it wasn't like I was the problem that the game was stalling, when about half refuses to give almost any content. And where were you talking about my stalling tactics Day 1 if you thought that way about it? If you thought I was scum, you already had two others thinking the same thing. And please explain to me if you were so worried about the time we had for the second lynch, why give Mal more time?In post 487, Flubbernugget wrote:Sure why not. Why are you trying to threaten me?
I don't know what you mean by wide net
Note this isIn post 343, Flubbernugget wrote:SCP you have till tomorrow night to make a catch up post. I am going to hammer if I don't see one.
Why? What does that change?In post 496, qubixes wrote:I thought I should wait for the replacement before putting someone to L-1.
Why an Aero town read?In post 496, qubixes wrote:I don't have particular strong town reads, but as it stands I think you and Aero are the most likely to flip town.
What do we learn if Flubber flips town?In post 496, qubixes wrote:N_M wouldn't be so bad, but we learn very little if he flips town.
Why are you being such a non-entity lurk sack?In post 497, Not_Mafia wrote:I would reallylike a flubber flip right now
I'm not impressed by you dismissing everyone as a lurker and therefore not trying to persuade them the way you would anyone else. Especially since you still did interact with these players with the intent of "sorting" them. If you really want, I can give you the nature of scp's "I'm going to catch up" posting as a reason for exception, but that's still pretty lameIn post 490, Thor665 wrote:Here's the entire game;
malpascp (lurker)
Lowell (lurker)
qubixes (Reach out)
Creature (Suspected you)
Aeronaut (Reach out)
Flubbernugget (You)
Not_Mafia (already suspects you)
ecane (lurker)
Who do you think I'm dropping the ball in not reaching out to?
Specifically?
This attack is silly and empty.