Newbie 735: Town wins!

[Dourgrim]

EBWOP: I know they couldn't have actually had that conversation last Night, since both of them weren't part of the game last Night... I was pointing out that it's a valid scum strategy in 3/2 LyLo.

[Mastin]

Mastin this logic is beginning to sound like the kind of tunnel vision that got you into trouble with the past mislynching of hohum.

Ah, how much I want to comment on this, yet can't do so without getting modkilled. To elaborate would be to push my luck, so that's all I'm going to say; I think you can understand why I can't say anything.

Might I remind everyone that hohum's final suspicion was placed upon Mastin before he self-lynched. Here is his final meaningful post:

And hohum being a townie, he had no way at all of knowing who the scum are. Despite how Ult and Gerain had both voted for him and allowed the self-hammer, he--I believe--listed the two who he thought were the greatest contributors to the lynch, his main suspects, as he obviously knew himself to be town and that the lynch was being pressed on him. Earlier on, before I became a major player in day two, it was Dour and Scien, and even before that, it was Ult and Chimera. Simply put, he gave his finger of suspicion towards all the players in the game besides himself. If for no other reason than Dour and Scien both having acted incredibly pro-town, my thoughts on who are the scum is his original opinion--Ult and Chimera, you and Kier, now.

I would like to add to hohum's supposition that Mastin's tunnel vision needs to be looked at more carefully.

Ah, how I so much want to comment on this. On this one, I can talk a little about the 'tunnel visioning' appearance, but it goes into my playstyle, which you have only my word on, and it is wifom. The only proof I can offer would get me modkilled, and I'll leave it at that.

Regarding his present comment regarding me, how could a simple statement that was clearly meant to be more 'introductory' and intending to 'make light of a grave situation' be twisted to suggest that I'm suspicious? "Worried that I'd be voted out?" Of course I am for goodness sake!
I was simply trying to avoid mere WIFOM arguments that can neither be proven nor disproven, and by my saying game over would be major WIFOM. And moreover, I was trying to at least bring some light back to this game amidst all that crap that has transpired.

It's not twisted. Anything and everything said in a game should be looked at. People drop hints to their roles in supposedly low-profile areas, such as excuses, greetings, or goodbyes. Wiki knowledge tells me that everyone wants to hint at their roles a little, and that the only one that I see discouraged to do so is the doctor.
So I'm maybe just thinking out loud with my suspicions (and they are just that--my suspicions), as sometimes, there can be flat-out admissions to being scum if they're dropped in certain ways. Too bad it works both ways, though, as through all this conversation, it is very possible that the cop has dropped tells as well and that the scum might already know (or suspect, at least) who the cop is. (If there is a cop, that is--only 50/50 chance, but as scum have not claimed cop so far, I am leaning towards there being a cop wishing to remain hidden)
And as to the comment being meant to bring light back to the junk, explain to me how the comment was meant that way. This statement itself seems contradictory to the earlier said phrase. Look at the two back to back:

how could a simple statement that was clearly meant to be more 'introductory'

and intending to

'make light of a grave situation'

I was trying to at least bring some light back to this game amidst all that crap that has transpired.

The bolded seems to imply the original statement ('I hope it's not goodbye too soon) was just him saying, essentially, 'hello, good to be in the game', while the underlined seems to imply that the statement had a different meaning of 'I hope to offer valuable insight'. Could you explain how the two do not conflict, besides that you put an 'and' in there, please? They certainly do to me.

What really baffles me about your response is that it seems you would PREFER that I act just like hohum and Panzer when they were pressured.

I fail to see how I was saying that...at all. I was giving my interpretation, my thoughts on the post out loud, my suspicion. Not that it was true and that you shouldn't have done it.

Would you rather me simply state game over JUST LIKE hohum did when he was pressured (I'm referring here to the "good luck in lylo guys" comment)?

That would not be a good reaction, as it'd be wifom. Town not taking the same course of action a third time, when it's twice been just a townie. As I said, it was not anything more than a suspicion that I publically voiced.

Would you rather have me self-vote in response to all this to indicate how bad a position we are in for the town to have any chance of winning?

To self-vote would only confirm your status as scum, as I don't think you'd get two townies to vote for you, and by the lack of your death, that would mean the scum did not bandwagon, which would make you scum. You are my primary suspect. True, I could be horribly wrong, and if you self-voted, an instant scum bandwagon would end the game in their victory. But, well, so far, you haven't done anything that reverses my opinion on Ult, whose actions were scummy, to say the least. You are free to self-vote if you wish to, but regardless of your role, it would only dampen your chances to win.

Well, we know exactly how those tactics have led us in this game, and I'm surprised that you would advocate them.

Again, I did no such thing. You misinterpreting my mere suspicion which I voiced is increasingly concerning. I said it was suspicious, and that it was just my interpretation. Nowhere at all did I say what you seem to be thinking I am saying.

I am particularly interested in what others think about Mastin's present attack against me, and whether or not it sheds new light on his tunnel vision tactics.

Suspicion. Not attack. Suspicion which I voiced, not an attack.

I would say that, just in the case with hohum, there is absolutely nothing I could say that could change your mind about me with this attitude.

You could try not misinterpreting my posts and better defend yourself to get my

suspicions

off of you.

Such certainty!

Only probability. Dour and Scien have both appeared incredibly pro-town. Ult and Chimera have both done some actions to appear pro-town, but the former did many actions which have been pointed out by multiple people as scummy, and the latter didn't contribute all that much.

Your recent post about me is a prime example of why everyone should re-evaluate mastin's methodology here, as it may lead the town to lose.

Any action taken could lead towards a town loss. Yet any action can lead towards a town victory. It works both ways, and I find it an invalid point. Especially when you're horribly misinterpreting what I have said.

And no, Mastin, this is not a scum-tell! This is a "I just joined the game" tell.

Why so certain that I'd be so certain it's a scum tell? That said, it is a 'I just joined the game'. If someone had been in the game since the beginning and said that,

then

I would probably see it as a scum tell, based off of personal experience in the matter.

He did that to Kieraen as well

Who responded, and I clarified with why I saw what I did.

There are a few reasons why he might be doing that.

A few theoretical reasons, sure, but the truth is that they're just me thinking out loud with my suspicions on their comments. My interpretation at yet another element of the game.

A little reactionary. I don't see how you think that he is showing a preference in Hohum/Panzer play. Where are you seeing that?

A point which I also noted, and which you should answer, And.

I have a feeling he was trying to get comments from you both.

Oh, not just them. The whole town. There was no attempted attack.

Your reaction to this weak attack is also interesting. Seems a bit much.

This I also noted.

Mastin, would you explain your weak questions? Do you honestly believe that the wording of their respective comments are that scummy?

'That scummy'? If 'that' means 'very', then a large no. I find them an interesting choice of words, to say the least, and have been thinking out loud.

I think thats all for now. Dour input? You have been kind of quiet today.

There's a reason that you are on the bottom of my list (Activity, amongst others, is a factor). Dour appears to have been busy, but we'll never know for sure. His lack of activity is concerning, to say the least. If not for the change in participation, it is at the very least concerning because we are hearing his input far less often.

[Mastin]

Oh, look at the timing Dour posts just as I finish mine up.

As I've said before, I fully expect the two scum to accuse each other in this situation, especially if one of the scum has already been put under the microscope by the Town as a whole... which you have.

An opinion which I've expressed for a good portion of the day, and obviously one I agree on.

Andrigan, you haven't presented any kind of a defense to the case made against your predecessor so far, aside from trying to implicate Mastin for tunnelling. You now have my input, as well as Scien's, to help you formulate your "analysis" of the situation.

This I believe I pointed out already. He's had feedback from every player, I believe, except for possibly Kier.

Dour appears to have been busy, but we'll never know for sure.

Dour states that he has been busy just before I post this. The irony of it.

[Andrigan]

Ok, so here are two quotes I am interested in:

Also, I must say that the Ult-Mastin pairing seems most likely. Ult specifically asked Mastin his thoughts on the PBPA, Ult voted hohum, Mastin unvoted. And then today, Day 3, they have almost exclusively questioned each other, possibly a distancing tatic for LYLO.

As I've said before, I fully expect the two scum to accuse each other in this situation, especially if one of the scum has already been put under the microscope by the Town as a whole... which you have. It gives whichever of you doesn't get lynched a

very

believable alibi going into the final Day ("Hey, I'm the guy who pushed for the lynch of X, who turned out to be scum, remember?"). Andrigan and Mastin (in that order) fit this scenario perfectly right now.

Look, this is simply not true. And the only way to prove this to you is by telling you who I think Mastin's scum-buddy is. It is the only non-WIFOM tactic I can think of at this time. In doing so, I will answer several of Scien's questions that he posted to me.

Let's take a look at the rolefishing charge put against my predecessor and myself; here is what Ult said in response to it:

The power role digging I did on day one was purely newbiness, please read the posts that i made back then.

Alexhans is probably dead because he claimed to have info on power-roles. The fact that I was questioning him on day 1 was in my eyes purely coincidental.

Rolefishing is in general a big no-no, but newbies make that mistake often. As to whether or not there is a connection between ult and alex regarding the night kill? Take this quote from alex:

You seriously think that my commentary gives any hint about my knowing or not knowing there are power roles? It was a worst-case-scenario comment.

And at least my commentary on power roles sprang an interesting question by ultimation, a scummy question? why would any innocent person would want to make power roles public?

After this comment, why on earth would ult, if he were scum, kill alex night #1? There is no evidence that alex himself has a power-role, and after that strong accusation against ult for his scummy question, do you think he would go ahead and kill him? That would merely make him seem more suspicious. Thus, I definitely think that someone else pushed to kill alex with the hopes that the town would focus on ult (and it looked like it worked wonderfully). The real question is, who would do that?? It couldn't have been Mastin as he was not present, and nor could it have been his predecessor since he never really showed up. That means it would have most likely been his scum-buddy.

And who could the scum-buddy be? Let's look at who discussed it after the nightkill. Scien and Chimera. Here are the quotes:

I personally believe Alex was probably hit because of the slight chance he did have info on power roles. Take that for what you will.

Ult, any comment on your power role digging, intentional or no, in day one, and the fact the person that was on your case originally about that was night killed?

And those questions I stated that I had for ult in the above text, ult, I expect answers to those.

What's interesting when we compare the two is that Scien gave a GENERAL explanation for why he was killed; he did not name anyone, leaving it open as to who did it. Chimera, on the other hand, specifically called out Ult as the target. Why? Because, I presume, Chimera knew it would be easy to start a bandwagon forming against ult in conjunction with his newbish question from day 1.

Ok, to summarize the structure of this argument:

Mastin-myself scum pair is wrong.
Why is it false? Because Mastin is actually paired with Chimera.
Why is Chimera scum? Because he deliberately killed alex during the night to make me/ult an easy target the next day. It turned out that hohum became an even

easier

target for day 2, so the scum decided for him to be the priority kill for the day, and leave me to the next.

So, in order to combat Dour's and Chimera's claim that I am probably paired with Mastin, I think that Chimera is probably his partner.

To those who still think I am scum, the last bit of explanation would be to justify why my predecessor voted for hohum. Frankly, I think he was getting a bit frustrated by hohum's gameplay and that he didn't warrant another lengthy PBPA. Even geraintm agreed to this, and he was also a townie. He says the following AFTER ult's vote, and after mastin's unvote.

well,i am kind ain favour of it. Frankly self voting just screams lynch this person to me. i am kinda thinking right now you are trying to double bluff us, we had a townie who gave up day one, we can't have anotehr townie doing the same today, can we?
and, i would like to lynch you just to get everyone else in this game who is new to understand if they come out of this game with nothing else that giving up and self lynching are the worst thing you can do. this is an extreme situation, but this is a learning/teaching game and i don't mind a loss if they all go away with that knowledge.

After this post, hohum self-hammers, so if anyone is going to use the claim that Ult was trying to get hohum to self-hammer would also have to claim that geraintm was doing the same. But this isn't a scum tell given the circumstances of hohum's gameplay. And unfortunately, I should add that this makes it very hard to draw conclusions from both panzer's and hohum's lynch. I am still trying, but it's becoming very difficult.

Anyway, that's my two cents. My top scum-picks at this point are Mastin and Chimera.

[Dourgrim]

A thinks it's B-C
B thinks it's A-C
C thinks it's A-B

Scien, does the above look accurate to you?

[Andrigan]

Ok, Mastin posted during my post, so I need to respond accordingly.

Luckily, I can respond to both Mastin and Scien with one post.

(1) Hohum states "enjoy lylo guys"
(2) Mastin posts a reply with an "Appeal to Emotion" link, and uses that against Hohum.

Also, there's this:

enjoy lylo guys.

This is perhaps the most classic, of ALL ways to do it, this has to be the most classic [link=http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?tit ... to_Emotion]Appeal to Emotion[/link] of all time, and I am inclined to believe it is desperation.

What does this link say exactly? Here it is:

An appeal to emotion is a particularly devious sort of fallacious argument, particularly in a game of unknowns such as Mafia. "If you lynch me, you'll lose!" is an easy example, but there are many others, played by both/all Factions in most games at some point. The nature of the game lends itself to appeals to fear or hope or trust.

Now, what does Mastin think a townie should have done in my case when I joined the game? Appeal to emotion in a classic way. Here is the quote:

If a townie, I'd think it'd be something more drastic, like game over

This is just evidence that really no matter what I said (even minor greetings), Mastin would have gone after me. If I had appealed to emotion, he would have called it suspicious (based on Appeal to Emotion). If I didn't, he would also have called it suspicious (as the present case illuminates).

This is why it seemed the only alternative was for him to want to me to act like Panzer or hohum, simply because they appealed to emotion.

Thus, I reiterate my original statement that my introductory comment is simply WIFOM. The fact that Mastin, a very astute and careful player won't agree with me on that point makes me wonder why he has invested so much into it.

To be fair, however, Mastin says he is just thinking out loud and that it may just be a weak suspicion. I also agree that much of what Ult has said earlier warrants careful scrutiny, and so my initial comments should be looked at carefully. But this case I think is overblown. I am not deriding your capacity to be insightful or vigilant, but I am questioning why someone who is as careful as you would pick out something that was WIFOM and milk it for all that it's worth. I do not think a townie would do that in this case; I think only scum would continue to pile on suspicions on someone that are weak, mixed with one's that are good just to get the pile high enough so that people lose track of what's good and what's bad. It's a very good scum tactic, and makes it easier for people to be misled into thinking there is a stronger case against someone than there really is.

As it stands now, the case against me is that I
(1) talk too much about roles
(2) put hohum at L-1 with the hope that he would self-hammer
(3) killed alex who possibly had a powerrole

I have tried to answer these accusations as best I can.

The case against Mastin so far is still weak in my view and does not warrant a vote. But I am glad that people are beginning to talk right now, as more discussion provides more information.

[Andrigan]

A thinks it's B-C
B thinks it's A-C
C thinks it's A-B

Scien, does the above look accurate to you?

I am definitely not confident enough in my scum-picks to rule out dour or scien, and it worries me that this little circle has developed. If either Dour or Scien is scum, then there is no chance for the town to win. I think a more careful look at Dour should be my next task.

[Mastin]

And the only way to prove this to you is by telling you who I think

Mastin

's scum-buddy

is.

Do I smell a slight sense of hypocrisy in matters regarding a certain fallacy? Yea, I do.

Rolefishing is in general a big no-no, but newbies make that mistake often. As to whether or not there is a connection between ult and alex regarding the night kill? Take this quote from alex:
After this comment, why on earth would ult, if he were scum, kill alex night #1? There is no evidence that alex himself has a power-role, and after that strong accusation against ult for his scummy question, do you think he would go ahead and kill him? That would merely make him seem more suspicious. Thus, I definitely think that someone else pushed to kill alex with the hopes that the town would focus on ult (and it looked like it worked wonderfully).

1: Ult was a newbie, and would likely not know better, until it was too late.
2: This argument is perhaps the largest WIFOM scum tell argument in the book. "Oh, Ult rolefished alex, who responded poorly. Alex died. No scum would be that stupid, and Ult's being framed, right?"
Nice try, but saying it's a non-wifom topic but bringing up the largest possible wifom comment is definitely not making you look scummy.[/sarcasm]

Why is Chimera scum? Because he deliberately killed alex during the night to make me/ult an easy target the next day. It turned out that hohum became an even easier target for day 2, so the scum decided for him to be the priority kill for the day, and leave me to the next.

Okay, to make sure it's not just my opinion, to the town:

Is this, in any way, not large wifom?

I think that Chimera is probably his partner.

Chimera wasn't voting for hohum, the 'easy target'. Your predecessor, the doctor, and someone who has appeared overall very pro-town did, however.

Frankly, I think he was getting a bit frustrated by hohum's gameplay and that he didn't warrant another lengthy PBPA.

Pro-town players should take their time. By not posting it, Ult only made himself look incredibly scummy.

Scien, does the above look accurate to you?

Dunno about Scien, but I certainly think it appears accurate. Simply put, if And and Kier weren't the two scum, both of you would deserve the victory. (Especially Scien) For incredibly pro-town behavior throughout the game. Yea, Ult and Chimera's scummyness play a factor as well, but quite simply put, you two have played this game better than any others.
That said, though, I am not eliminating the possibility that Dour is scum, but I just find it doubtful.

Ok, Mastin posted during my post, so I need to respond accordingly.

Must've taken a long time to type; there were two hours separating the two of them.

(1) Hohum states "enjoy lylo guys"
(2) Mastin posts a reply with an "Appeal to Emotion" link, and uses that against Hohum.

Appeal to emotion is, more often than not, a move used by the scum. Those using it are usually desperate.

Now, what does Mastin think a townie should have done in my case when I joined the game? Appeal to emotion in a classic way. Here is the quote:
This is just evidence that really no matter what I said (even minor greetings), Mastin would have gone after me. If I had appealed to emotion, he would have called it suspicious (based on Appeal to Emotion). If I didn't, he would also have called it suspicious (as the present case illuminates).

There was no False Dilemma involved, And. I never said it was a wrong answer. Nor that another answer would've been wrong nor right. I found it suspicious, and voiced my suspicions out loud, my interpretation of it. That was all. You making a big deal out of something so small, though, now

that

I find interesting. Really, really interesting, actually.

Thus, I reiterate my original statement that my introductory comment is simply WIFOM.

While pro-town players use it all the time, some friends of mine and the wiki point to wifom being used more often by the scum. So, well, I interpreted this as admitting that your introductory statement was intentional wifom, and that you just admitted to something which is very easy to interpret as a scum tell.

The fact that Mastin, a very astute and careful player won't agree with me on that point makes me wonder why he has invested so much into it.

On the contrary, I've pointed out of how little importance it really was. You, however, seem to be acting as if me making this suspicion is the end of the universe, or something. Your reaction has casted much greater suspicion on you than the original remark could've even implied.

But this case I think is overblown. I am not deriding your capacity to be insightful or vigilant, but I am questioning why someone who is as careful as you would pick out something that was WIFOM and milk it for all that it's worth.

If you read my post, I said that I was suspicious of it. Nothing more. You haven't seen me 'milk' a point to death. I don't think I've done so all this game. The fact that you continue to think so much of a small point, and think that I think it means so much, though, now there's something for at least some concern. It could easily be interpreted as you making an accusation of me stretching the case, where I have several times now said that it was nothing but a publically voiced suspicion. Which is, itself, scummy. I've heard players, even with experience, be desperate scum, and your recent reactions remind me greatly of those instances.

The case against Mastin so far is still weak in my view and does not warrant a vote.

Apparently, it's stronger than your case against Kier/Chimera, and obviously more than Dour or Scien. Otherwise, they would be at the top of your XX-YY scum partnership. Am I incorrect?

I am definitely not confident enough in my scum-picks to rule out dour or scien, and it worries me that this little circle has developed. If either Dour or Scien is scum, then there is no chance for the town to win. I think a more careful look at Dour should be my next task.

I'm about 80% sure that at least one scum is in the circle. And am heavily leaning towards it being both. (About 75%) I, too, have not ruled out Dour nor Scien as suspects, but Dour has very little against him, and Scien has nothing at all which I can view as a reason he could be scum.

[Andrigan]

This argument is perhaps the largest WIFOM scum tell argument in the book. "Oh, Ult rolefished alex, who responded poorly. Alex died. No scum would be that stupid, and Ult's being framed, right?"
Nice try, but saying it's a non-wifom topic but bringing up the largest possible wifom comment is definitely not making you look scummy.[/sarcasm]

You can't have your cake and eat it too (this is meant to be a joke, not a sarcastic insult). If you are going to claim that the explanation that Ult was framed is WIFOM, then the issue of why alex died is moot and is a null-tell, rather than a scum tell against me/ult.

However, not all WIFOM arguments are equal. Otherwise, the game would go nowhere, as much is some form of WIFOM when you break it all down. In this case, I am giving another explanation that I find plausible given all of the pressure that was placed on ult after his comment. I mean, the pressure was blantant and bolded right in front of him to read. The framing explanation is not concocted out of thin air. So, while you say scum tend to use WIFOM arguments more often than townies, I'm fairly sure scum WIFOM is weak. I tried to at least give a case as to why it's not wildly implausible of an explanation.

As to your comments about making a big deal about things, we are going to be caught in an endless back and forth struggle about this topic if we pursue it further; we have both made our cases about what we think each other is doing, and reiterating it again would only prolong what everyone knows the outcome will be (no you are, no you are......)

And regarding your comment about whom I think is most scummy, I would have said near the beginning that you were, but I think it would be good to step out of this argumentative cycle with you for a moment and look at other members. For some reason, the days in this game have turned into lockdown arguments about very select people. Day 1 -- Panzer, Day 2 -- hohum. Of course, if I say this, I'm going to have to carry the burden of putting a full case together about Dour. So, in order to list some help in this from the town, some of you have said you have weak or semi-weak suspicions of Dour. Could you explain what the basis of these suspicions are? I'm sorry if they are buried in the past 20 pages, but I think it would be helpful for everyone if you could spell out what is troubling you.

Just to recall from memory, I think Mastin said he was concerned about his inactivity/lurking, but I can't remember any more than that. Scien or Kier, did you have anything about Dour that was troubling?

[Scien]

First off:

Mastin? All those comments about getting modkilled for talking about? Can you at least mention the rule that you are hiding behind? He seemed to me to be purely talking about the events in this game. But in several places you hid behind some rule. The only rule I can think of would be referring to other games. Am I wrong?

The points I am interested in are:

Mastin this logic is beginning to sound like the kind of tunnel vision that got you into trouble with the past mislynching of hohum.

Ah, how much I want to comment on this, yet can't do so without getting modkilled.

Eh? We are talking about this game here. Why can't you comment on your actions in this game?

I would like to add to hohum's supposition that Mastin's tunnel vision needs to be looked at more carefully.

Ah, how I so much want to comment on this. On this one, I can talk a little about the 'tunnel visioning' appearance, but it goes into my playstyle, which you have only my word on, and it is wifom. The only proof I can offer would get me modkilled, and I'll leave it at that.

Eh? Again he seems to be talking about this game. He is accusing you of going for the easiest lynch. Something that the town has discussed before. At least point him back to your defense of this earlier. I don't remember where that was at the moment.

Ok to And for a minute on his post trying to pair Kieraen (Chimera) with Mastin. That post actually seems to be following a logical flow. From my experience (this one game), isn't this the stage for the accused to get all emotional and self vote? Sorry, that was a joke. Ok, as for the content: I kind of agree with Mastin about the WIFOMishness of the comment about Chimera/Mastin setting up a condition that would result in making Ult look bad. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying its not possible, but I think I would put my money on scum (with no Mastin yet to help him since you believe Mastin is scum) voting Alex hoping to hit a power role. Yes I could have been manipulated to think this way, but I think I have to stick to the easier explanation here. Do you see any other actions of Chimera's that would promote your theory of him being scum? I mean outside of the power role discussion, you have semi-valid points there I think.

Basically taking you semi-logical argument:

Mastin-myself scum pair is wrong.
Why is it false? Because Mastin is actually paired with Chimera.
Why is Chimera scum? Because he deliberately killed alex during the night to make me/ult an easy target the next day. It turned out that hohum became an even easier target for day 2, so the scum decided for him to be the priority kill for the day, and leave me to the next.

I have an issue buying the Chimera is scum part. Yes he was an interested party, and laid up the suspicion on Ult in day one. But for the most part has done little else suspicious in my mind, minus being a bit quiet. Keep trying to win me over, I'm liking this discussion at the moment. Oh, and I agree with your last part. The argument that you/Ult laid up the Hohum hammer is a bit weak, but minus that you have to admit it is a bit strange that Ult would have said he had another half of a PBPA coming and then go ahead with his vote before posting it.

A thinks it's B-C
B thinks it's A-C
C thinks it's A-B

Scien, does the above look accurate to you?

Heh about sums it up.

Now, what does Mastin think a townie should have done in my case when I joined the game? Appeal to emotion in a classic way.

That's pretty lucid in my opinion. But from my standpoint it was just the result of him stretching a phrase you said too far. The result was apparently the base of your accusations of him trying to push for emotional play. I'm not sure he actually wanted emotional play, he was trying to twist your words too much. Due to trying to make you look scummy, or to try to make you talk, which of those? I'm not sure.

Appeal to emotion is, more often than not, a move used by the scum. Those using it are usually desperate.

Well besides the good points above this, this seems to be a contradiction here with your earlier statements. The initial phrase you thought was worded funny was worded in a way that was a slight appeal to emotion. The way you claim it would have looked more townie is if he had worded it in a way that would have been a huge appeal to emotion. You do see this right?

You making a big deal out of something so small, though, now that I find interesting. Really, really interesting, actually.

Hmm fair enough. You claim you are fishing for tells. That would make sense.

You can't have your cake and eat it too [...]. If you are going to claim that the explanation that Ult was framed is WIFOM, then the issue of why alex died is moot and is a null-tell, rather than a scum tell against me/ult.

Um... no. It can be taken at face value and scum that suspected that Alex had a power role could have killed him. Both are a bit WIFOM if that's your point, but one or the other is likely right.

I tried to at least give a case as to why it's not wildly implausible of an explanation.

I think you succeeded. The problem is that you are using something that you admin to be somewhat implausible (if I am reading "not wildly implausible) as a crux of your defense. Even if you remove it from your defense, you are still trying to use it as a argument against Chimera/Kieraen. If it is weak, it needs to be made stronger. At the moment I don't think it is strong enough to support either of the things you are trying to use it for.

As to your question about Dour. I have little suspicion of him. He has been fairly active, has contributed, and has seemed pretty pro town in my eyes. He did seem to focus a bit in the Hohum wagon, too much for my taste, but Mastin was focusing much worse during that debacle. Dour is way down on my list as suspicious. You, Hohum, Kieraen, Dour in that order.

[Scien]

EBWOP
The problem is that you are using something that you

admin

admit to be somewhat implausible

(if I am reading "not wildly implausible)

(if I am reading "not wildly implausible" correctly) as a crux of your defense.

[Scien]

And since I am a total noob:
"Now, what does Mastin think a townie should have done in my case when I joined the game? Appeal to emotion in a classic way."

I attributed to Mastin. That was Andrigan. Sorry

[Mastin]

Mastin? All those comments about getting modkilled for talking about? Can you at least mention the rule that you are hiding behind? He seemed to me to be purely talking about the events in this game. But in several places you hid behind some rule. The only rule I can think of would be referring to other games. Am I wrong?

I'll have to check with Thok if I am allowed to answer this.

Eh? We are talking about this game here. Why can't you comment on your actions in this game?

To do so when it is only this game would be my word alone, with no evidence to back it up. To give evidence would get me modkilled. That's all I can say, without PM'ing the mod to ask.

Due to trying to make you look scummy, or to try to make you talk, which of those? I'm not sure.

I already explained that I was giving my interpretation of what he said, and that I found it suspicious. There was nothing else in it, no attempt to twist his words. It was an opinion I put forward. His reaction to the opinion I find most intriging. (Don't have spellcheck at the moment to check if I got that spelled right...)

Anyway, be back as soon as I can. This was a quick log in, so I'll go into more details later.

[Scien]

Um. No offense but I am going to have to call shenanigans here. You can't even tell me a rule? Why do you need to check that? You are being overly cautious. If Panzer didn't get kicked for explicitly calling others out on other games, I think you would be safe answering questions about THIS game.

I am not asking for logic here. You could answer with nothing but your theories on game play without giving examples. I will not attack you for it. I know you can't really back up why you play the way you do because you can not give examples, but you can at least try and explain your reasoning. There should be no rule about discussing what drives your game play as long as you are not bringing other active games into the mix.

I might be messing this up but can you see what I am trying to say? Your thoughts about why an action is good, as opposed to examples of why an action would be good. I don't need evidence to back up your actions.

The action we are talking about here is an extream focus on someone in day 2, and a semi strong focus on a person in day 3.

[Mastin]

The mod has clarified the matter for me.

Mastin? All those comments about getting modkilled for talking about? Can you at least mention the rule that you are hiding behind? He seemed to me to be purely talking about the events in this game. But in several places you hid behind some rule. The only rule I can think of would be referring to other games. Am I wrong?

I can't talk about it because you're right-ongoing game and all that. It was a mistake to mention it at all, but I can't take back what I've said.
That said, I could answer the questions originally asked, but, again, it's something which you'd really only have my word on, and would involve a great deal of wifom. If you wish me to, then I will, but, again, I don't see how it'd serve any real purpose to the game.

Anyway, time to go into greater detail.

If you are going to claim that the explanation that Ult was framed is WIFOM, then the issue of why alex died is moot and is a null-tell, rather than a scum tell against me/ult.

The fact remains that we don't know for sure how Ult plays, but from what I've seen of his play in this game so far, it seems probable that he would, indeed, be the type of person to send in that kill. The fact that you say that he was just being framed I find to be rather a good deal of wifom. The matter that Ult was rolefishing, and alex responded poorly, was pointed out by every player in the game, not just Chimera, if I recall correctly.

However, not all WIFOM arguments are equal.

Of course not. But, while there are some cases where it is best for a pro-town player to use wifom, wifom itself remains mostly a scum tactic, and that wifom was one of the classical strong ones.

In this case, I am giving another explanation that I find plausible given all of the pressure that was placed on ult after his comment.

And further pressure was applies after the night kill, which he responded poorly to.

I mean, the pressure was blantant and bolded right in front of him to read.

Had it occurred to you that maybe the pressure was well-placed?

The framing explanation is not concocted out of thin air.

Even all the evidence in the world doesn't lessen the fact that it's still a classic example of wifom.

So, while you say scum tend to use WIFOM arguments more often than townies, I'm fairly sure scum WIFOM is weak.

I find that the opposite is true, and that town wifom is the weaker of the two.
With that conflict in opinion, I'd like to ask other players about this matter.

As to your comments about making a big deal about things, we are going to be caught in an endless back and forth struggle about this topic if we pursue it further; we have both made our cases about what we think each other is doing, and reiterating it again would only prolong what everyone knows the outcome will be (no you are, no you are......)

So shoot me. I'm repetitive. In this case, I fail to see how you're answering my suspicions, so I'll voice them again:
Why the large reaction over such a small, unimportant interpretation? You seem to have dodged this for a while, now.

And regarding your comment about whom I think is most scummy, I would have said near the beginning that you were

Key word in there which attracts my interest and slight suspicion--were. Are you saying you no longer believe I'm scum? 'were' is past tense.

but I think it would be good to step out of this argumentative cycle with you for a moment and look at other members. For some reason, the days in this game have turned into lockdown arguments about very select people. Day 1 -- Panzer, Day 2 -- hohum. Of course, if I say this, I'm going to have to carry the burden of putting a full case together about Dour. So, in order to list some help in this from the town, some of you have said you have weak or semi-weak suspicions of Dour. Could you explain what the basis of these suspicions are? I'm sorry if they are buried in the past 20 pages, but I think it would be helpful for everyone if you could spell out what is troubling you.

There really isn't that much.
-If I were to stretch the case beyond limits, I could accuse Dour of lurking to avoid suspicion and to drop the hammer at just the right moment, as his lack of activity recently is concerning. While I've been known to make crazy assumptions/interpretations (you need not look back even two pages to find that), that'd go too far. However, it is true that his lack of activity is worrisome. His insight is regarded a great asset to the town. He gave a good reason for being inactive, but that doesn't mean I don't wish he'd post more often.
-He, himself, pointed out how none of the pro-town appearing players had been killed. When he said it, we were at day two, I believe, and it might've been before I replaced in, meaning both he and Scien were the logical choice of kills.
-He and I both were major factors in hohum's lynch. If I were person X making wild assumptions, that could be interpreted as me and Dour being buddies from X's perspective, but, again, this is something that is close to impossible.

That's really all I can think about for him.

The way you claim it would have looked more townie is if he had worded it in a way that would have been a huge appeal to emotion.

This is a misinterpretation. I said that I thought he'd say something else. Not that it would've been better to word it that way. As I have said, it was worthy of suspicion, nothing more.

No offense but I am going to have to call shenanigans here.

I don't do shenanigans. :/

You can't even tell me a rule?

Just making sure I was allowed to.

Why do you need to check that? You are being overly cautious.

I'd rather be cautious about something which I shouldn't have said in the first place and answering it without breaking a rule rather than break a rule and ruin the game for all four other players. I'd be ashamed if that were to happen.

If Panzer didn't get kicked for explicitly calling others out on other games, I think you would be safe answering questions about THIS game.

To answer, again, I can't give anything for this game more than my word, which is heavy wifom. If you'd like me to, then I will, but I find it would be pointless to do so.

I know you can't really back up why you play the way you do because you can not give examples, but you can at least try and explain your reasoning.

Fair enough. I'll go back to the original ones, then.

Mastin this logic is beginning to sound like the kind of tunnel vision that got you into trouble with the past mislynching of hohum.

It is part of my playstyle to go mainly after the targets I view as scum. When asked to do so, I can quote all the evidence stacked up against them, present it, sum it up if needed, etc. to explain why I think they are scum. As players post, I point out what I find interesting, worthy of note, suspicious, or flat-out scummy. And when there are two scum left in the game, I look for two primary suspects. In this game, there are only two people alive whose predecessors acted scummy, so I focus most of my attention on them. It might seem a little tunnel visioned, but--again--both Scien and Dour have acted pro-town throughout the whole game and have done very little if anything which I have found scummy, and the only other players I thought were scummy are all dead. (Hohum was lynched. Gerain was shot by the mafia.) That leaves the player I view as rather scummy overall, the player I view as neutral, and two pro-town appearing players. I'm not eliminating them as suspects, but they've earned the right to be called pro-town appearing and to have very little suspicion on them.

Did I miss anything?

[Scien]

Eh for the most part on my account... I guess I missed something that the mod deleted... because you didn't get even close to saying something about another game so far.

Besides I just wanted to hear you explicitly say the below. I don't care if its WIFOM or not. I wanted to hear your reasoning:

It is part of my playstyle to go mainly after the targets I view as scum. When asked to do so, I can quote all the evidence stacked up against them, present it, sum it up if needed, etc. [...]

I mean hear you say it after you got into the whole rules thing. People can look at WIFOM comments and figure out for themselves if that frame of mind would make sense. Who cares if you can't prove it.

In any case I think I am satisfied for the moment. Would like to hear from the two new guys and Dourgrim. I'm done pestering you for the moment.

[Dourgrim]

I haven't heard a defense yet, just accusations against other players. The points I originally made against ultimation still seem valid to me, unless I've missed something?

[Andrigan]

I haven't heard a defense yet, just accusations against other players. The points I originally made against ultimation still seem valid to me, unless I've missed something?

Well, I have given defenses to the main accusations against me/ult (about alex's killing, about the vote against hohum); it just turns out that, according to the consensus here, they are all various versions of WIFOM. From what I can see, without knowing much about ult's actual intentions, that's as good of a defense I can provide right now. I really don't know why ult didn't think hohum deserved another PBPA other than that he was frustrated by his playstyle. I also can't think of another explanation for why alex was killed the first night other than (1) it was coincidence (this was ult's actual defense), or (2) ult was framed. As to Mastin's attacks against me, I guess we are at a bit of a standoff as to what we think we can gauge from my introductory statements. I think Mastin's focus provides evidence of his ability to twist words to make someone appear more scummy; on the other hand Scien believes, it just shows that Mastin wants to get me to talk. Mastin thinks that my strong reaction is evidence that I am scummy (at least that's what I think he's getting at).

Anyway, at the end of the day, pretty much everyone has remained unwavering in their suspicion of me as their number one suspect. It would be good to hear more from Kier regarding my comments as I'm not sure he has said anything for a while. I'm worried that we may have lost him completely

With respect to Dour, I have similar views as to Mastin about him. I really dislike piggybacking on other people's thoughts, but in this case I cannot come up with more that is suspicious.

Does this sum everything up pretty much about what has been going on in general? It seems to me that people are getting ready for the voting stage of the day (at least that is the tone I felt from Dour's last post). I suppose I have no objections to proceeding other than it would be nice to hear from Kier.

[Kieraen]

You haven't lost me. Just trying to make heads or tails of this game.

[Dourgrim]

It seems like this game is stalling out a bit here, I suspect because everyone's main suspect going into this day hasn't changed yet but no one wants to start the voting. Is this correct? Otherwise, if anyone has doubts, now is the perfect time to sound off and express those doubts, or else the Town should cast their votes and move on, for better or worse.

[Scien]

Just trying to make heads or tails of this game.

Hmm lets see.

Mastin - Replaced a person in the middle of day 2, that person did not contribute to the game at all. After Mastin took over for him, immediately went for the person with the biggest suspicion on him, and didn't let up until that person self lynched. Ignored gathering information on anyone but Hohum during day 2 in order to push the wagon, and "go mainly after" the targets viewed as scum In day 3 has been looking around more, but with an emphasis on Ult/Andrigan who is currently also the "most likely". The only thing I am still worried about with Mastin is how easy it would be to replace "most likely" above with "least controversial, and easiest" with both his day 2 and day 3 actions, paired with how much he was willing to ignore in others actions in day 2. He can't defend against this, and is unwilling/unable to explain reasoning for such focus besides "I go mainly after the most likely scum". Yes I know the above is going to make you irritated Mastin, but I don't buy the whole 'I can't tell you my thoughts because I can't prove my thoughts' argument.

Dour - Contributes when he talks, but talks in spurts. Sometimes he is fairly active, other times he blends into background. This is not suspicious, he has said he is busy. He has pushed both wagons, and is currently involved in this one as well.

Andrigan - Replaced Ult in day 3, and has been trying to answer for Ult's actions. This is a tall order however. In day 1, Ult was called out for rolefishing. The person he was fishing against ends up dieing night 1. In day two he was involved with the Hohum wagon, and during a PBP also rolefishs on him. This is ignored for the most part however, and Ult places the last real vote on Hohum, not counting Hohum's silly self vote. In day 3, mainly was defending himself, but ended up saying something that suggested a pairing with Mastin, but really had little reason to be said by a townie. He then left the game. And comes in and immediately starts a much more capable defense, but really has no ground and uses a bit of WIFOM (although describing a possible, improbable scum tactic) to defend himself. He is in a tough spot, and one that I'm not sure he can get out of. Ult's actions in my mind scream scum, and Andrigan has pointed out that there is little else he can do to defend himself at this point. Sorry and but I am almost ready for a vote on you for Ult's actions alone. Your defense is spirited but I don't think you can save your ship. I'm close to a vote if things to not improve.

Kieraen - Replaced Chimera in day 3. During day 1 Chimera was fairly quiet until Panzer showed up. After that he seemed to make sane decisions. In day 2, he was semi involved in the Hohum persuit, but didn't say much that I noticed as odd. In day 3 he seemed pretty coherent until he left. Kieraen came in and started strong, but has sense got quiet. What do you think about the logic in And's pairing you to Hohum?

Scien - Don't really know how to comment on myself. I'm sure you can probably get a read on me one way or the other. Actions wise I was involved in pushing both wagons, but did not vote in either final vote count. I was very willing to vote for Panzer due to his admitted lying during roleclaim, and potential exposing of our doc (WHICH WE HAD!), but was withholding to try and get a pairing tell from him. Hohum's wagon however I was uneasy with about halfway through when everyone focused on Hohum and Hohum alone, and I withheld my vote. In day 3, I am a bit worried about everyone focusing on Ult/And, but Ult does have a bunch of suspicion around him, and has said some pretty strange things.

The above is my summary. There are no quotes. Just my feel for the game at the moment.

As a question to get people talking again:

Before I make a really long post, I want to bring up this quote of Mastins.

Ult: 4--Dour, Scien, Mastin, Chimera. Treating the primary FoS's as votes, Ult is dead.
Mastin: 0-1--Maybe Ult.

I don't see any reason for you to say this. Although I said I was making a case against you, doen't mean I am FOSing you.

I think that by saying this you are just trying to make me look less of you partner (if I was scum, and if you were my partner that is) and more of your enemy.

Very suspicious is my eyes. I would be so pleased if you would leave my name out of the next FOS count you do, Unless i have actually FOS'ed. Thankyou.

What motives can everyone see behind the bolded statement? Try and provide what motives could be behind it from the viewpoint of a townie, and from the viewpoint as a scum.

[Thok]

Official Vote Count

Mastin (0):
Andrigan (0):
Kieraen (0):
Dourgrim (0):
scien (0):

Not voting (5): (Mastin, Andrigan, Kieraen, Dourgrim, Scien)

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

Prodding Mastin, Andrigan, Kieraen

[Mastin]

Internet problems...

Here, still. If there's anything you wish me to answer, just requote it for me; I'm too busy at this moment to notice anything of real content.

[Kieraen]

@Scien. Well since Hohum flipped town I love that AND has paired me with him!

Suspicions for me.

This is a key observation.

Ignored gathering information on anyone but Hohum

Mastin has been very focused and I am aware that he has pretty much ignored Scien and Dour as potential mafia. He is focusing on whoever has the most suspicion. This is of course good play, to a point. Suspicion should be evenly spread and it suggests having a teammate within that group.

I can't ignore however that he and AND are the most suspicious. The role hunting is certainly conspicious.

One other fact interested me. DOUR has pushed both wagons, whilst SCIEN has pushed both wagons without voting. Why didn't you vote Scien? What stopped you both times? Pushing a wagon with no vote to vindicate your suspicion, IS suspicious.
Apart from that you haven't made and scumtells...ahem...I mean bad townie moves

Other than that the town has pretty much covered all bases.


Oh and with regards to the quote.

As townie. I suggest he is trying to say that Mastin is attempting to make himself appear as the 'choice' between Ult and himself, when it isn't neccessarily that clear cut. And that Mastin (as mafia) is implicating some sort of partnership between them meaning if Mastin is executed, blame falls on Ult next.

As Mafia. I think by openly defending himself from a non existant FOS by ULT, ULT is creating a battle in which to distance himself from his partner.

[Scien]

@Scien. Well since Hohum flipped town I love that AND has paired me with him!

Um what? Andrigan paired you with Hohum? Oh... I misidentified there, he paired you with Mastin. Sorry.

Why didn't you vote Scien? What stopped you both times?

I mentioned this when I told you I didn't vote on either wagon, look:

I was very willing to vote for Panzer due to his admitted lying during roleclaim, and potential exposing of our doc (WHICH WE HAD!), but was withholding to try and get a pairing tell from him.

Hohum's wagon however I was uneasy with about halfway through when everyone focused on Hohum and Hohum alone, and I withheld my vote.