Inorganic Chemistry [GAME OVER, SCUM WIN]

[Antihero]

it was hilarious in a situational irony kind of way. you were taunting the town from a private thread they couldn't see.

i also thought it was really bond villain-esque. i imagined you sitting in a big chair and petting a fluffy white cat while you were making that post.

[mastin2]

The rule used to be "don't lynch mastin". The rule is now "always lynch mastin". For serious. Always. Lynch. Mastin.

Eh, it's cyclical. I'm actually coming

out

of the always-lynch part, because lynching me is losing games recently and not lynching me is winning them.

(Fun fact: I had this record off-site under another name, too. At a time, they basically always nightkilled me because I always was a threat. Then I started to suck as town and play a WICKEDLY good scumgame, so suddenly, the rule went from letting me die via nightkill, to always lynching me pronto. )

[mastin2]

it was hilarious in a situational irony kind of way. you were taunting the town from a private thread they couldn't see. i also thought it was really bond villain-esque. i imagined you sitting in a big chair and petting a fluffy white cat while you were making that post.

Not actually far off.

I am VERY fond of the villain pose. (Which is apparently a trope.) I hold a maniacal grin when making it, and literally laugh.

When I say I enjoy my scumgames, I thoroughly

enjoy

my scumgames.

[Wickedestjr]

And Wicked I killed because Wicked himself ironically gave me the out I needed to not protect him. Had he not done the coinflip idea, I would have had to come up with the BS that I used in-thread anyway ("Constantine was completely conftown, Wicked only mostly conftown, and LC said he'd kill Wicked which is a good reason for me to not protect Wicked and protect someone else"), only with much less legitimacy. (Constantine was never a kill option, because, again. He was an asset to use.)

I figured that, if you were scum, the risk of killing me (on a night when

nobody else

would have killed me) would have scared you away. But my roleblock on you + your play after Cerb died made me think you were town.

[Jaqen Hghar]

you might want to think about changing the way you approach this game, jaqen

Always open to constructive criticism. In what way?

[mastin2]

I find her reasons for her thoughts to frequently be terrible. I mean, I guess if people are swayed by bad logic, then she's not someone to leave alive in end game, but it just feels like the combination of paranoia about her AND her inability to consistently back up her reads in a sensible fashion leaves her as, at worst, a null threat to a scum team in the end game. I do admittedly have limited experience with her though.

I actually went over this. Easily missed because it's in GD rather than MD, but...

Spoiler: Long post

52% INFP

I don't use Logic, I don't use PoE, I don't use the method of seeing who is tied to who. I read people almost solely based on what I am observing what people are saying and relating that to how it makes me feel. I am always trying to find out if someone is being genuine or not and it is my primary way of picking out scum. I have picked out scum in RVS in an offsite game and even though I thought they were scum, even though I tried to make a case out it it, people did not think I actually had anything. It wasn't until later in the game that I made the case that they were not scum hunting that I was able to substantiate my read with evidence. As a Feeler, coming up with reasons for my reads is by far the hardest part for me. Since I do not strictly use tangible evidence when reading people it is really hard to explain why I think someone is scum. Learning how to get my target lynched is something I have started to learn about form reading things on the wiki. So while My reads could be good, all too often people are just not buying it that my read is legit because my read is not based on logic.

This has been my problem in games, too. I struggled with it, and all I could say is that it was, "just gut". While I use PoE and seeing who is tied to who, first and foremost, my main method of catching scum is and for years has been by feeling. Yet I hated resorting to calling it gut, because it wasn't gut, it was something more that I couldn't define, something existing yet not quite tangible.

I still haven't found a perfect solution, but seeing as how I have an Academy, it goes without saying that I've developed techniques to work around it.

-First off, time. Building a reputation helps. If people know you, and I mean

know

you, then given time, they will

trust

you. So,
*Keep playing games actively, to develop bonds to actively-playing players.
*Be very, very open about things; hold as little back as you possibly can and explain as much as you can why you feel the way you do. (Even if you ramble a little or a lot, people will generally not mind. At worst, they ignore you and move on. At best? They get a fundamental understanding of where you're coming from, and you've gained a valuable friend and ally who will help you when you get a strong read you want to push.)
*Attitude matters; hold a good one. You need friends and allies, and that means they need to like you. (This doesn't apply to everyone, obviously, but I THINK it applies to both our personality types.)
*However, that being said, don't be afraid to stand up for yourself. You don't want to wave around your record of how good you are in people's faces, but don't let them tread over you and don't be afraid to point out said record exists. If you've gotten good at catching scum, it's okay to say you're not too shabby. (In short, arrogance is bad, but you're allowed to take credit where credit's due.)

-One of the largest things is a perspective shift. I used to separate logic and gut into two separate entities. Now I consider them to be different aspects of the same thing, an unnamed concept that I suppose you could loosely call perception, "sight" of things so to speak. You can gather all the logical evidence in the world, but two people viewing the exact same piece of information may reach two different conclusions--why? Because logic isn't the end-all answer; the two people are using their gut to reach a final conclusion, which may differ. Similarly, you may not be able to place what's "off" about some post/someone, but you can sense with your "gut" that it's there, so you bring up things about them that look bad: logic.
*This is why I use PoE and interactions anyway: they're "logic"-based, yet I as someone distinctly lacking in that department have used them to devastating effect, not because I'm good at logic, but because I looked at things and they "felt" right. In short,
~Interactions between players "feel" like townVtown, scumVscum, or townVscum the same way as a player "feels" like scum or town.
~PoE comes in by compiling all my "feels", putting them together, and then placing the overall picture into what it "feels" like.

-I generally tend to call things as I see it as the game progresses. It does lead to some messy, incoherent reads, because all players give off "mixed" signals. But you'd be surprised how often you're consistently calling a player out on the same things. Speaking of which,
*It's generally the overall picture that gets the job done. You probably know this one already. It requires time to accomplish, of course, but show where you're coming from. It may be difficult to get exact posts, but explain the process, and see if you can find anything that is demonstrating the type of thing you're talking about, and note how much of an example it is or isn't of that thing.

-In spite of calling things as I see it, I tend to also be fairly laid back and will be fairly casual. This allows me to more easily gauge areas like the RVS, where scum are at their most unnatural. Earlygame and lategame are where this internal sensing is at its strongest: you can pick up on scum who're "off" early-on, and you can pick up on a pattern that is "off" lategame; just recognize that you'll probably sag midgame. (Can't help ya there; I haven't fixed that problem in my own play.)

These may or may not apply to you, I don't actually know, not having seen your games before. But use whatever you can.

Spoiler: Another long one

I've taken so many MBTI/CF test that it would make your head spin. In fact, I've taken so many that I can pretty much manipulate the test's outcome to be almost whatever I want it to be.

Yep. Amazing how that works.

I will say that, for me, starting off my reads were really really bad because I just didn't know what to look for and didn't really have a clear idea in my mind as to what is scummy and what is not.

I've found that a lot of the times, there's actually a balance in things: new players typically have an insight into something that experienced players no longer can see, because they've got an alternative view--however, the downside is that they often misapply the knowledge that could be gained, and later in their career think that what they did was wrong, when in truth what they did was just "close, but not quite", requiring a fine-tuning in the process. (This is generally what I try to teach when I IC, but my mental health issues sadly prevent me from doing that teaching more often.)

Myself included. I was a godawful player when I started, and while that was mostly my fault (arrogance got to my head really, REALLY badly in 2009), it remained even after I came back. I still wasted hours, building huge walls that amounted to nothing, because I wasn't sure what I was doing. (A ton of early-2011 games have this.) It took me quite a while to realize my calling wasn't in that "what's scummy, and what's not" stuff, but in "what feelings can I trust, and what feelings can I not?", more or less.

I do have a strong sense of if someone is being genuine and this has lead me to think when someone is pulling a gambit to automatically think that they are scum.

Generally this amounts to their mindset; getting into their head reveals what's a scum gambit and what's a town gambit normally, but it's a skill which you may or may not be able to do. It's worth trying if you haven't, though. (I think it should be possible, by virtue of, "Does it make sense coming from town? From scum?" And which makes more, which I THINK you're saying you can do?)

* Being active has never been a problem for me. I have been in the past someone who is too active, choking out conversations that would otherwise take place. But this is sound advice and the more that people can see of me the more they can understand me.

What I basically meant is that you should keep playing, and being involved in the games you're playing, not lurking in them--real life gets in the way a lot, but if you're not actually there, it's harder for people to get to know you. (Harder, but not impossible. For instance, players like Bulbazak are very frequently constantly behind, yet can make friends with other players.)

* Being open is not so much the problem for me as much as knowing how to and describing why I think someone is scummy.

What I basically meant about being open is to be honest about where you're coming from. If you think a player's scummy but don't know why, there can be a heavy temptation to throw as much mud on them as possible--and you'll justifiably be called out on them with terms such as strawmanning, misrepping, and confbiasing. I've found, though, that being honest about where you're coming from can help. You can still point out the bad things, but be honest about what you're thinking. For instance, if you said, "X is scum for doing Y", you're probably lying...and others may be able to detect the deceit. If you instead say, "I think X is scum, and while I'm not sure exactly why, I think it's for stuff like Y", or something to that effect, you're telling the truth, and players are more inclined to believe you.

* I have sorta started to get a bit arrogant at this stage in my mafia career.

A little arrogance every once and a while won't hurt that badly. I have some, and if a player on MS.net claims they don't, they're probably lying. Just be careful that it stays at being "a little" and doesn't blossom into "a lot". THAT will ruin you for years. (Still haven't fully recovered from the peak of my arrogance; it haunts me to this day.)

I will say that I can do this for how others are reading me/interacting with me. I can start to get a sense of if someone is town based on the way they do or do not understand me and what I am doing.

Right, which is one reason it's good to talk to people. You probably don't need me to tell you that dominating the game's a bad idea and that sometimes, it's okay not to post. But one reason games on MS.net have exploded in length page-wise is because live interactions with other players are actually a great way to lock down a read on them. Especially if it's a townread. The more you interact, the more you can get a sense of each other, and learn to come to a consensus on what to do.

I have almost always been very good at observing what makes sense and what does not in mafia almost entirely on the way the info is presented.

You might be good in the lategame of themes, then. They often have a lot of things that have that sort of relationship. Worth trying out a bit if you're not already (I haven't actually played with you, sadly, so I don't know where you hang around), although living to that point is obviously something you don't exactly have the most control over.

-I tend to "call it like I see it" way too much actually.

What I more meant by that was that keeping your reads close to your chest will drive you crazy, and also lead to others trusting you less. Yes, you need some restraint. There's a difference between healthy paranoia, and paranoid paranoia; the latter you want to keep out of the thread as much as possible but the former you can probably put in-thread as a side-note. There's also a difference between pointing out role crumbs as you see them and keeping them to yourself; the former may be "more open", but the latter is probably what's more pro-town in general. (This is why it can sometimes help to keep notes, in case stuff comes up that you want to not forget, but which you don't want public.) You generally get the best results by saying things as you see them, but only if they feel important to mention.

I am currently trying to get a better understanding of when to comment and when to not comment on things I am observing.

This tip somewhat-contradicts an earlier tip, but occasionally, it can help to lurk. (Not excessively, just a tad bit.) You generally only need to post a couple times a day; if you're posting ten times as much, you might be posting in excess just a little bit. So sometimes, I'll lurk offline and read the game: before posting, after posting, for up to a full day. (Usually only half a day, though.) This time delay can help give you a better idea of whether what you saw was relevant or not. So the tip you got was very, very good; I'd say follow it since it's good advice.

Too lazy to delete the less-relevant stuff from there, but if you read it there, you see it described in a little more detail.

As town, I'm REALLY good at getting certain connections, certain insights, and REALLY bad at giving them actual hard reasoning. I generally have lost my effectiveness because I am a little too certain in my earlygame and not nearly certain enough in my lategame (when it used to be the other way around, which made me overall a more competent player), but in both stages, I "see" things. And I've gotten VERY good at making others see them, too, even if they don't make sense by logic as we know logic. Bit of a gift, mostly a curse.

[mastin2]

(Incidentally, I think my current scum meta is that I'm lacking confidence in my earlygame and have it in my lategame, which is what my towngame USED to be like. It'll eventually circle back, of course. My meta is not a continuous line, nor a stagnant point; it is a cylindrical wheel. The key to reading me right is to learn where I am on the wheel at that point in my life. )

[Antihero]

you might want to think about changing the way you approach this game, jaqen

Always open to constructive criticism. In what way?

for one, you have WAY too much inertia on bad reads.

if you continue to be alive as town that's a semi-reliable signs your reads are off somewhere. i mean... yeah there's times when scum's hands are forced and have to kill pr's or whatever before they kill the ppl with good reads. BUT, as you get deeper in the game, there are points you should really step back and re-evaluate things and question the basic assumptions and biases that are likely leading you astray. and i think that's noticeably lacking with you.

[mastin2]

Mastin, you are such a cocky shit

Quite explicitly so! As scum, I'm basically invincible whenever I'm actually in the game. I've had a couple of scumgames where people all thought that they had really caught me, but they were catching the ghost of me, not actually me, because I was out of the game at the time of my death for those games. (One I won't name, the other's NY 171.) Every time I've actually

been

in the game, as scum, I've either won or gotten DARN close to it. (I think that in the last two or three years, the only scumgame of mine that I lost while in the game was Attack on Titan? And that was because of a solid town showing with solid scumplay to counter it, ending in lylo where displaced replacing in sealed scum's fate.)

There's a reason that my flowchart says, "If mastina is scum, just accept your fate; you've lost".
Nearly every game, people write off my scumgame talents as just luck, or bad townplay, but every time, fact remains that I've won and have a VERY solid record of having done so. So I brag about my scumgame when town and do a lil' bit of in-game gloating when scum. (I practically taunted Flum at points, basically going, "Well of COURSE I'm scum, doesn't mean you're going to be able to do anything about it!")

[mastin2]

vezok stepping in to answer a question for mastin, when it's already obvious the lynch MUST be on one of mastin LC, guaranteed 50/50 at worst...will the town notice?

Not sure if this is what you're talking about, but there was a point where I facepalmed because of vezok--he had me as the inventor before I revealed it, which was a scumslip on his part. Thank god that nobody but me noticed.

Careful Mastin, your scum is showing...

Like I said, I knew we had won by that point, all I had to do was wait for the inevitable to happen and make posts that vaguely looked like they were more than just the lurking they were.

In other news, I'm very sad that the town had a guaranteed 50/50 in mastin/lc, and didn't lynch either. Like, how does that happen when it was said repeatedly in the game that one of the two has to be scum.

Partially my doing. I subtly implanted the idea that smart scum could have figured out the gambit and guessed the action, OR, that dumb scum were

really

dumb and me trying to be smart managed to make the dumb-scum be genius. Between the two, I managed to keep the thought out.

But in lylo, I was fully prepared to 1v1 LC if necessary. I just didn't want to do so, and actually was flabbergasted (with relief, mind you) when LC promised a long wall and what he delivered

wasn't

a mastina vote.

[mastin2]

(Also, still very, VERY much want Anti to release the scum PT and haven't the slightest idea why he isn't other than to be a dick. I put hard work and effort into my posts in there, specifically expecting them to be read.)

[Antihero]

i only release scum pt's if everyone's ok with it.

i (generally) don't do things just to be a dick.

[Metal Sonic]

I think ika is the one who doesn't want the scum pt released? Then he is the real scum. We should then figuratively lynch him outside of this thread. So it doesn't get locked. Is that a good idea

[mastin2]

I really don't know why he's insisting it not be, considering there's stuff in there that he wanted public knowledge.

[Fluminator]

(I practically taunted Flum at points, basically going, "Well of COURSE I'm scum, doesn't mean you're going to be able to do anything about it!")

I evidently need to work on convincing people to lynch my scum reads.

[mastin2]

That being said, Flum, I also at times was going, "Well,

yeah

, I'm scum, and for reasons quite similar to *something else you posted at some point*, but not for the reasons you're currently pushing. That? That's just me being, well...me."

[PeregrineV]

whoospies, did i say pv was a poisoner...?

i was a little tad off

HE WAS A VT

the (actual) winner of inorganic was the mafia of
mastin2, vezokpiraka, Aristophanes, and ika

And here I am with a rare Sunday visit, just to vote Mastin. (I was thinking Mastin/Lyng Cat, but Mastin had more voters).



ah well.

[Jaqen Hghar]

you might want to think about changing the way you approach this game, jaqen

Always open to constructive criticism. In what way?

for one, you have WAY too much inertia on bad reads.

if you continue to be alive as town that's a semi-reliable signs your reads are off somewhere. i mean... yeah there's times when scum's hands are forced and have to kill pr's or whatever before they kill the ppl with good reads. BUT, as you get deeper in the game, there are points you should really step back and re-evaluate things and question the basic assumptions and biases that are likely leading you astray. and i think that's noticeably lacking with you.

Ok. That's how I ended up on Mastin. Vezok had me completely fooled. I don't see where you're coming from with this Anti. My reads did change and that came from going back and reevaluating things.

[Antihero]

right

you also had your vote parked on town for the majority of the game. sonic boom and lying cat, specifically.

neither of those were good scumreads.

[mastin2]

Anti, too lazy to do it right now, but would you at all mind if I quoted (editing out other scumbuddies as needed) all my posts from the mafia PT?

Dead serious, want that stuff read.

[Antihero]

yeah sure

[Jaqen Hghar]

right

you also had your vote parked on town for the majority of the game. sonic boom and lying cat, specifically.

neither of those were good scumreads.

Do you not understand what reverse psychology means?

I mean, it's ok to not believe someone is doing that while in the midst of a game where you don't know a player's alignment. But once a player has explained how they were doing whatever they are doing or have done in a game and then they flip town (which should turn on the lightbulb that just maybe they weren't bullshitting) it then falls to those who are left to go back and see what the truth of it all is. In this case, those left living after I was mislynched decided to completely disregard the content even though context was provided. That's hardly my fault.

My D1 reads were horrible, no doubt about that. But that doesn't mean they didn't evolve. One could even argue that force ably shutting out what any player has to say simply because you disagreed with what was initially presented and instead sticking to hardheaded notions of confirmation bias is exactly what cost town this game. Yes, I didn't make it easier and I'll own that much. But all the sheep following the shepherd will only win games when that shepherd isn't actually a wolf.

One lesson everyone should, probably won't but still should, take from this game is that meta is lousy. Even mediocre players can and do manipulate it and you should only focus on the game at hand. Another would be to keep your reads fluid.

[Aristophanes]

So the cat is out of the bag, eh?

In that case, Woo-hoo!!!
Awesome game guys! Really, many of you played a very strong game.
TSO, you tried so hard in the end and it was amazing.
Mastina, your behind the scenes is something to be reveled at. I may want to enroll in this academy I only just realized was a thing. Good luck reading it all once quoted, everyone. There's a hell of a lot of content there!
Vezok, I was worried I'd doomed you in some way by associations, but you really pulled through! Awesome show!
I'd list more town who played a good game, if a little misguided at times, but I shan't. You all know who you are!

Jaquen, I'm not saying this to be mean, but you definitely have to do something differently in future games. I could barely follow you at times and even just skipped your posts for a while because they were confusing and inconsequential. Or that's how they felt at least. They never compelled me to follow you.

I know, I'm not one to talk. I hate that I was so inactive and had I not had the pressure from Vezok, wouldn't have announced my replacing in thread. I had already asked to if I wasn't lynched that day. Life got too busy and I flaked.
My honest, sincere apologies.

Anti, great game. I had a blast man!
Once I get back into Mafia playing shape I'll definitely look to join another of your games! Some of the best modding I've encountered!

So yeah, please try not to judge too harshly for suckling so much. I really didn't mean to!

[Antihero]

mastin's iso from the scum qt part 1:

Spoiler:

FINALLY.
FINALLY.

I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS DANG MOMENT.

...Anti, can I have my fakeclaim now?

Btw, just submitted my commute for Lying Cat.
Why?

'Cause Karma, that's why.

I thought it'd make good irony.

Also, SO tempting to be a bit of a cheeky scumbutt and see how much I can get away with. (As-is, I'm just laying the foundation for my not-so-subtle commuter-inventor 'crumbs.)

welp
I forgot mollie was in this game

Not to worry. That's what the nightkill is for.

(Basically, in this playerlist, I don't see any name more worthy than hers. There are one or two names that I also fear, but short-term, they can be eluded and even be beneficial to keep around as they muck about a bit. MOLLIE, on the other hand......yeah. It'd be suicidal NOT to try and kill her.)

And zzzx is pr. Do we kill him?

Not N1. Tere might be a PR herself, and though I'm curious to see if she actually is mollie-like (I've heard that she is, but I don't think I've actually played with Tere), IF she is, then she's a threat even without one.

No, ika.
I've 'crumbed I'm the commuter already. Blatantly so; half my posts are about it.
I've also submitted a target of Lying Cat.

Changed my mind, btw.
I forgot how competent Ank was. He's our N1 nightkill. (In spite of the fact that I'm 95% certain he's a VT.)

Apparently.

We kinda need this little thing called "teamwork" if we want to have any chance of winning whatsoever. (Me taking charge isn't exactly teamwork, but if all attempts at teamwork fail, then it's the next-best thing. )

And, yeah, that locked thread is rather worrying.

ika.
The last time someone on my scumteam tried to claim my role.
It was mcqueen.
There's a reason that I, fresh after creating my "no bussing" rule at that time period.

Bussed him to death

. (Other than mcqueen, the D1 lynch, that game was a perfect scum victory. Sadly, it was entirely lost in the rollback.)

My action is mine. Not yours to fake. I'm always willing to take suggestions--but they have to be realistic ones. For instance, I can bend the rules to get it onto any player I have reason to townread, and if no such townread exists, hey, I'm scum; I'll just invent reason in advance to townread them and give it. (In short, I have to foreshadow my action before giving it out, else I'll get lynched.) I think that Lying Cat is an excellent choice: someone I have reason to target, someone who looks town, yet is not an immediate threat. (Lying Cat's danger is in the lategame when it comes to gamebreaking.) Thus I have done the foreshadowing.

Part of the teamwork is listening, and I am, but it works the other way: you need to know how I work. I've 'crumbed PR so blatantly and so heavily it'd get me lynched not to claim my commute-inventor status. I'm a notorious 'crumber, thus I choreograph my actions in advance...especially when they're day-actions. A huge part of my game is internal consistency as town: I think a thought, even a "crazy" one, stick to it, latch onto it, and hold on beyond reasonable and give up on it whenever a flip occurs, not necessarily at the time most people would think it would.

Admittedly I did say who our nightkills were with a little bit of authority, but...if you have better ideas, I'd listen. (Particularly since I as the inventor am the last person you want committing the kills.)

im just giving the thing that if we want to go out we need to PR kill. im not out for killing VTs

We should kill the greatest threat to us.

PRs rarely are. Like, I got a potential 'crumb from the hydra that they could be a PR. But they're also getting a lot of flak and could be run up or even lynched--I would never waste a kill on them without a claim first. PR-shooting to take out players that aren't a threat often backfires because if you're wrong and they're a VT, guess what? The players who are a threat, AND the PRs, both continue to be around. Meanwhile, you did the town's job by getting rid of a potential mislynch.

That's why I want to kill Ank. He's a threat.

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeah, we're gonna have issues.

I've never felt threatened by PRs.
It's the people I fear.

Know my famous scumgames?
L4D?
Anything Goes?
Attack on Titan?
So on and so forth.

In every single one of them, I never killed players that I thought were PRs.
I killed players I thought were a threat, and if they just so happened to be a PR, yay.
Killing for PR-hunting has always in my experience been shooting yourself in the foot.

Not in my experience.
Last game was the exception which proved the rule.
You know how statistically improbable it is for a tracker to get one guilty, right?
Yet alone three?

Games aren't won by PRs. They're won by the people, who might have one but don't need one.

HAHA, I'm not dead! I'm gonna spend what time I can today reading the thread, but I'm working and it's Comiccon two blocks away, so I'll probably be busy.

I imagine traffic's a...

killer

.

[tuba music from the price is right]

Hey, the idea's to 'crumb commuter, so I did so! (With the added cheekiness factor of me technically claiming MAFIA commuter, but they don't need to know that. )

Oi!

I have one of the higher postcounts in the game.

I will be back in the game tomorrow.

I'm not fond of it having two of us on it since it'd be really nice to pull an all-town wagon on town a-la the first game, but oh well.

So a couple of ideas for night actions I had:
-We no kill. (Or Target Lying Cat with the kill. Same net effect regardless.) This sacrifices a kill, and "confirms" Lying Cat as town. However, this gambit if it pays off gives me credibility. Even if I somehow come under fire, then it would place immediate suspicion on Lying Cat as a result, since it'd look like scum were gambiting to "confirm" two of their players as town. (It holds a secondary benefit: if there's a protective/blocking role out there, we can potentially out it. If said role exists, the above will be lessened significantly, but can still play to our favor.)

-We kill Jaqen. Jaqen's current reads point away from us as being the scumteam; this would be a kill to help keep things that way, while creating confusion within the town (potentially leading to mislynches) and potentially (albeit very unlikely) hitting a PR.

-Or my original Kill Ank idea, with much of the above benefits save the PR bit.

Thoughts?

Bins is getting mislynched. (She'll probably get out of it but it's still happening.) No.

ZX is a VT and a not-very-helpful one at that.
Also no.

[Antihero]

Spoiler: part 2

Oh wait, Bins explicitly claimed inventor.
Not what type, but an inventor all the same.
Yeah, we can kill her.

If I had reason to believe she was gambitting as a VT, sure, yeah, no kill. But that post looked dead serious, soyeah, we can kill her.

did you see ZZZX early posts that pretyy much makes him non-vt?

Jaqen's right about ZX, but wrong about the exact execution.

ZX has three different plays. PR-play. VT-play. And scumplay. His scumplay is closer to his VT-play. Jaqen's judgment is the same as my own in regards to this not being ZX as a power role.

"I have a secret tell that works on sthar and sthar and mastin are the same person" -Jingle
Well you should get a new tell.

Well, he can't say I didn't warn him... :P

It's kinda funny, though.
He's right about all the stuff being from a town-me, but wrong about it actually being a town-me.
I do all the stuff I'm doing here as town.

Shakira is wrong about me in almost every way, but is right about it not being a town-me.
I don't act the way people expect me to as scum and if he played with me in another game using this game as a reference, he'd be 95% likely to mislynch me.

Incidentally, Lying Cat said correctly that I as scum will target players I know. They are, hilariously, blind to how much buddying I did to them.
(However, that said, their reads alignment is coincidental, contrary to what Shakira thinks. No, I did not intentionally create reads similar to theirs; my reads just happened to match up.)

The largest takeaway from this is...when it comes to Mastin, don't expect anything from Mastin. My game is fluid, adapted to best suit the circumstances.

I'm certainly not, obviously, but I can see any of you making it.

Vezok's probably our best bet, though. Not as likely to be JKed/tracked as ika/Mac in my opinion.

Who, well, I'll submit a Bins kill for the time being, but your call.

Vezokpiraka kills Bins.

(Of course, if any of you got inventions, let us know.)

Right. Mac's a vanilla cop.
Had entirely forgotten about that. :oops:

In that case, investigate Shakira. I'd prefer not to waste a nightkill there if Shakira is town.
So,

Mac investigates Shakira Confirmed

.
Unless you've got a better target in mind.

I am very much against a scan of Wicked.
Nothing about his play says PR at all, and he's a player that even as a PR I wouldn't consider an immediate threat.

"I told you so" has never felt so good to say.

That said, I say we kill Shakira tonight.
Not for any inherent value, mind you. I don't expect to hit a PR.
I mostly mean just to mess with the town. (Of course, it holds value if we got a Sonic Boom lynch, since it's offing a conftown.)

Btw, we're scanning the hiplop wagon for the weak cop inventor, who we need to find ASAP. I have ideas, but I'll need to double-check. (There weren't many people who townread Sonic Boom yesterday, after all, and anyone townreading Sonic Boom would be on the hiplop wagon.)

hiplop - 8 (vezokpiraka, ZZZX, Flubbernugget, Sonic Boom, Tere, Ankamius, Bins, Cerberus v666)
^My money's actually on Flubber, here.
We know it's not vezok. ZX I don't think it is. Tere was scumreading Sonic Boom. And Cerberus I believe is attacking them today, so isn't as likely.

Soyeah, scan or kill Flubber tonight.

Contrary to my in-thread posting, I'm caught up as of yesterday (still reading today's) for posting.
Yes, all of it.
I'm lying about not being caught up. (I do that as scum. Reason it's on my flowchart. :P)

Read Flubber's two posts. His "sigh, I tried" and the post after make it immensely obvious he is the cop-inventor.
Go ahead and kill ZX if you'd like, but ZX will flip vanilla, because Flubber's who we're looking for.

And, no.
I've already flat-out claimed inventor to Jingle.
I've made blatant, BLATANT 'crumbs to them, and have been signaling to THE ENTIRE THREAD, "Hey, I'm a protection inventor, just like last game".

Like, the only reason you haven't seen them is because you're my scumbuddies so you already know.
Iso me. You don't need to know I'm the commuter-inventor to figure it out from simple reading.

(See that, that 1801? Total lie. I'm entirely caught up. I've read every post on every page.
...But it's not entirely a lie. I'll be around a

little

bit, but for the most part, I have other tasks to attend to. I

am

V/LA on the weekends, after all. Reason my blog tends to have lots of late entries. :P)

ZZZX is nearly a claimed PR that has all the reason to send an invention to the only guy he trusts. I admit I might be wrong, but I need reasons why you think flubber is inventor.

1. Sonic Boom got the invention, and the list of people who could send that invention to them even in theory is just two names: ZX and Flubber. (Combine D2 people attacking Sonic Boom with D1 people who townread Sonic Boom.)
   
2. I know ZX fairly well, and I'm reading him, rather strongly, as VT. If it was just me I could be wrong, but Jaqen--who is just as good if not better at reading ZX--sees the similar pattern, that not-PR play. (Jaqen just identified it as scum rather than VT.)
   
3. Flubber's being really,
   really
   obvious in his posting about it being him. I'm not sure how you don't see that.

Like I said, you can kill ZX, but you're not gonna hit the cop inventor; for that, you want to target Flubber.

I'm wondering if we could bend the rules off of us both being mafia, knowing each others' alignments, betting in the mafia topic, about a town player.
But I don't think Anti has the authority to tell us. :(

Yeah. I'd prefer to keep as many of us alive as possible.

You know, it's kinda sad...for the most part, all four of us are lurking (vezok has the highest activity I'd say and even he's mostly active lurking), and yet...it's working.

Like...the town's got maybe one or two of us vaguely in sight, but never the same ones, never the main focus, always in the peripheral as someone out of reach from pressure...and in the case of suspecting me, largely tied to someone who will flip town. (Hiplop and Lying Cat both.)

I don't, but that works out in our favor if you want to kill ZX. :P
(Whatever the post is, you're free to point it out in here, but in-thread I'd never catch it.)

Btw, a large part of me is waiting for one of Sonic/Titus to either (1) realize I'm the commute-inventor (I've been 'crumbing like a madwoman because I can get away with it :P), and/or (2) see a hiplop townflip, just so that in their PT, the only thing they'll have to say is, "Oh,

fuck

." :P

Not sure how given that I've literally been screaming it at her and that there's only a small number of people who'd target LC and I'm near the top of the list.

I find it ironic that people are scumreading me for not driving a lynch harder, when driving a lynch hard is a historical

scumtell

of mine overall. Anything Goes in particular. There's a reason that on the flowchart, there's such a heavy emphasis on self-doubt, paranoia, second-guessing and whatnot. Because as town, I do that all the time, and as scum, I basically never do.

*her.

And fair warning, if you get the cop and claim basically any result which makes sense for you as town, I'll probably push you as scum, vezok--not hard enough to lynch you, mind you. It'd be purely, strategical distancing, a logical conclusion of my thoughts that'd make sense as town. I actually think that'd be a good thing. (Because neither of us would look worse for it, neither would gain heat for it, and yet, down the road, it will do wonders.)

Actually, I just realized something.
If we kill the cop inventor, and one of us gets the invention, best for us not to claim receiving it at all, since by LC's plan, the scum would get lynched who used it. The target would remain unknown for it, thus, crippling the town.

I think that if we can't get a Flubber claim today, the plan should be Kill ZX (I'll admit it's possible he's the PR we're looking for), rolecop Flubber.

No, but ZX's posting is such that I can see it as him which means that a kill on him is as good a kill as any.

Also,

currently

my commute is set to Lying Cat again; I might change it to Shakira Confirmed, but a town-me would be waffling between the two so a scum-me is too.

I figured as much, ika.

And vezok,

everyone

is being manipulated by us.

Sonic Boom by you.
Lying Cat by me.
And running the whole gauntlet from there, with the hilariously wrong posting.

No offense to Aristophanes, but...

Why is it that WE got the unknown, yet the TOWN got all the goodies? (TSO and Nacho.) Taking pity on them because of how utterly screwed they'd be otherwise? :P

I'm giving my commute to him.
'Sides, we've got a cop inventor to kill first.

Relax.

He's the number one concern for seeing through the mist.
But we've got bigger fish to fry tonight, AND Nacho will take a while to get going, AND when he does, he's still not likely to have you as his #1 focus because as far as the town is concerned, there are larger fish to fry. Him seeing through the mist partially is basically assured, but for him to see through it all will take him too long*; we'll be able to nightkill him before then.

*Disclaimer: he might see through it soon enough...but the sooner he sees through it all, the harder it'll be for him to push, since the town is effectively split into two camps and we're on opposite sides, so convincing the town that BOTH camps are wrong and they should refocus on a third is something that I don't think Nacho can do by the end of D3.

I kinda feel bad for hiplop right now.

I mean, I'm basically betraying his trust right now.

And he's actually right about you being scum, vezok. It's just that while I can kinda support him, I can't push you too strong because I need you alive so I can't fully support him there.

If it's any consolidation, hiplop, when you read this post-game, I'd have defended you if I were town.

(I also owe a major apology to Bins. <3 I'm so, SO sorry that I'm continuing to deride your play. This, I can tell you, stems purely from scum motivation and I swear I would NOT be doing it as town and it's making me feel absolutely terrible to continue to call your play bad when it honestly wasn't. <3)

nacho dies after we kill the weak cop

Naturally.

I can spin it right back, too, but right now, legit now feeling up to it. Earaches are ten times worse than headaches. Going into a game which if town would GIVE me one...... :P

Generally I don't really even get headaches.

I mean, I avoid the kind of things which'd cause them (read: booze), meaning that they're fairly rare for me. (For the record, I also don't get the frozen equivalent, from eating too much cold food; no brainfreeze afereffects.) But in the rare instance where I do get a throbbing pain in my head, that's the extent of the headache and the pain is so minor as to be a mere inconvenience.

This? Not so much. It's just...aaahg, I legit don't want to be in the game right now even though I SHOULD be in it. (I can say that if I were town I'd PROBABLY not be posting, too, but I'm not absolutely sure about that. Thus why I should be posting.)

Anti.

Yer drunk.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnd...checkmate.

Sonic Boom, you lose.

If ZX is the cop inventor, then the cop invention strategy fades out tonight.
If the cop inventor dies and the scum get the invention, which is looking likely, Sonic Boom doesn't get cleared.
Sonic Boom's sole contribution to the game has been spearheading a mislynch.
Nacho's not taken a side yet, but he's closer to mine than to theirs, ticked at the lynch.

I mean, it relies on a couple things happening that haven't happened yet, but if they happen, then that level of thorough trouncing is something that I've almost never done before to an ally and it's

beautiful

.

*To an enemy.

I love being scum.

You know the only thing that would have made that hiplop lynch better?

If vezok wasn't on it so we could have a well and true repeat of the Organic Chemistry D1 all-town mislynch. Seriously, 8/9 members town though. They should be ashamed; hiplop was so obvtown that I wouldn't need to be scum to have seen his townness.

Butstill...Titus, Sonic, have fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuunnn~~~ (You know I certainly will...... :twisted:)

(Incidentally, I can say that the main mistake of Sonic/Titus/Flubber/etc. was basically this:
If you think that I'm town yet horrendously wrong, sure, yeah, go push that flip, but expect things to get ugly my alignment regardless.
If you think that I'm town yet horrendously wrong, find a way to appease me if you can to avoid the mess.

If you think I am scum defending my scumbuddy,

you go after me first

. Seriously. Town, scum, doesn't matter, I tell this to people all the time and they ignore it and regret it later-on when they realize that I would never so overtly defend a scumbuddy and must either be town, or scum defending town. And thus, by pushing the player I am so hardcore defending...you've walked right into my trap.

Because right now? Everything is going according to plan. Game. set. match. Point, mastin2. Titus and Sonic are going to call me scum tomorrow, but I'll be able to weaponize that if we get the invention, because it is a hilariously-predictable tactic, and I can correctly accuse them of not changing their reads to reflect the information when the entire BASIS of their read on me was hiplop being scum. Yet in spite of their foundation falling apart, they'll still scumread me, and when they do, they'll have dug their own graves.)

(Ironically, they were right: I actually

was

stalling the hiplop lynch for as long as possible. But that's because I wanted the fight between us to be as deliciously glorious as it could be, with the trenches firmly dug in when hiplop would flip that I was right and they were wrong. Even if we DON'T get the cop invention and/or kill the cop inventor, they've lost all their credibility yet I've still got a fair amount of my own, meaning that their push on me will bear no fruit. They thought they were winning. They thought that I was being outmatched, outplayed, pushed into a corner. But in truth, they just played straight into my hand. :D)

/Villainous gloating.

Damn

that's good for the soul.
I realize it's premature, but hey, that's why it's VILLAINOUS gloating. :P

Oh, right. Forgot ika's scum so that it's only 7/9 town, but he'd have hammered as town since hammering is his thing he does his alignment regardless, so nobody's going to hold the hammer against him that much.

The tl;dr for those not following along:
The plan was for me to defend hiplop, stall his lynch for as long as possible (ideally making town waste another day if possible), but ultimately fail to save him and let him die. With the cop inventor hopefully found and nightkilled, then we have only one day to deal with Sonic Boom: if the inventor gifts to scum, then we lynch Sonic Boom, and if the inventor gifted to town, we lynch the town and nightkill Sonic Boom.

Sonic Boom would be unable to fight back, scumreading me (because it is obvious that's what they'll open tomorrow doing--and even if not, then my opening tomorrow will provoke one anyway since them scumreading me is what I want) yet being discredited for a lack of read evolution after being proven fundamentally wrong. With them out of the way, ideally by lynch, we'll be able to plow the road, eliminating town players after town players: I'd keep my commute on Shakira Confirmed, allowing us to have an excuse to take out big guns like Nachomamma8 and TSO.

Foolproof, heck no; there's still the third inventor to find and eliminate plus the possibility (though hopefully not probability) of an additional role or two aside from Bins. A good start, heck yes.

Ika kills: ZX.
Aristophanes Rolecops: Flubbernugget.

*grumble, grumble, gripe, gripe, I told you so*

Ah, well. Slight setback, so instead of checkmate we just placed Sonic Boom in Check.

Yeah, that's why I'm pushing Wicked, not Flubber.

You

could push Flubber, though, because that would freak me out, weirding me into

not

supporting the wagon there. :P

He's not obvtown to me.
I mean, him being this strongly scum is something that I won't lie is scumdriven, but I'd still be suspicious of him as town because of objectionably questionable actions.

You can ask this in-thread if you're clever enough and I can answer.

Btw, for the curious, what I just said was, effectively,
"This isn't me with MafiaSSK.
This is me, with notscience."
(Because notty had that pokemon avatar during Antihero Reboot and was the same type of read that MafiaSSK was--I was right about notty and wrong about MafiaSSK.)

I want to rolecop TSO just to make sure he's not the third inventor.
Basically, caught a potential indicator that he would be it, and if he's not, then for the time being I want him alive since he's helping us (and our nightkill should go, after we hit Flub, to the conftown: Shakira, Sonic, and Cerb are all vocal that the commute inventor is scum yet are the only three holding that opinion outside Flub) even though he'll turn against us eventually.

In short, I'm thinking tonight = kill Flubb, cop TSO. Kill one of the conftown, cop LC. Kill conftown again, cop Nacho. Alter as necessary to kill third inventor. It'd help us know who we're killing, too.

Ack!

Kari, I'm sorry. I'm scum, I'm pushing you because I'm scum, please don't take it personally. <3

Btw, as a thought exercise, running through my flowchart to see how many tells I've broken this game. (Because I'm actually pretty proud of myself, this is a solid scumgame. It might not seem that way since there are people suspicious of me, but I

like

it that way; their suspicion on me for the most part actually works to my favor as it causes people otherwise null on me to townread me, it keeps me on-guard and not relaxed in my defenses, and the fights generated only serve to make me look better and them look worse because as scum I own people in conversations. When I choose to, anyway.)

If Mastin is scum, accept the loss; she's going to win regardless of what you do. :P So treat her like town.
If Mastin is town, then she is town. Treat her as town. If she wants to be listened to, listen to her and trust her instincts. If she doesn't tell you to listen to her, take her words with a grain of salt; they're reads but not solid ones.
BAM.
You now know how to treat Mastin.
Will work out for you nearly every single game. :P

Like, I'm pretty sure this is a surefire win at this point, so, uh, yeah. When I'm scum, just take the hit; when I'm town, work with me no matter how infuriating that may be. :D

Summary. I think I realized my problem with Mastin. Her reads are changing very quickly and they're moving on a very, very wide scale.

Helpful hint, you have absolutely no reason to trust me on this right now, but this is a MASSIVE towntell for me. On the "how to read Mastin: the flowchart" I made (I need to track down the most up-to-date version), it's one of the primary items, in fact. The reason? Town Mastin doesn't have a clue what's going on. Her reads are in a state of constant flux, specifically because of that, and her own self-doubt, paranoia, and whatnot betrays her, as she constantly second-guesses herself and reevaluates, rethinks, and redoes stuff. In contrast, scuMastin has absolute control of the game. Whereas town-Mastin is defined by inconsistency, scuMastin is defined by consistent, solid, controlled, calculated play. She keeps the same reads as much as possible, because it serves to antagonize the least number of players. She is calm, collected, and cool. She is strategic. She is focused. Her thoughts are logical and precise, because she has a good handle on the game, and thus, her mind does not betray her.

Or in short, the difference between town and scum is the difference between chaos and order. Now, obviously, this isn't absolute. There have been towngames where I've felt in control, rare as they may be. There have been scumgames where I was chaotic, either by circumstances or in one or two cases me faking my town chaos convincingly. But it IS a fairly solid general guideline. I know what I'm doing as scum; I'm just taking my best guess and throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks as town.

I bet she has quite a few "playstyles" (and she knows, I think, why I'm saying this.)

Indeed I do. Fairly certain I said so already in this game, too, the reason why: because my play in games is fluid, thanks to situational awareness. While I might not know what's going on as town, I can generally feel out the game and have an idea for what will work best, adapting to have a playstyle specific to that game. It's mildly helpful, since it lets me hone in on scum better, but situational awareness mostly helps me as scum, because as scum, adapting my play to the game when I have more info than my town self does is

lethally

effective.

Okay, this one's still in-tact, which frankly should have been an alarm bell to people. I've basically held the same reads the entire game and been pushing solid points. Mastin's never that good as town. :P

Though that does remind me, I need a point in there about focusing on scumhunting.

I find her posts coming from a mostly town point of view and she has a genuine interest in finding scum.

Right, that's another one I need to add in.

This one I've

sort-of

broken. I do in fact look like I'm trying to figure out the game, while truthfully I'm just herpderping about in trololol mode.

How To Read Mastin

:

Are you a player who has hydraed or has otherwise worked well with Mastin?

Yes-->You likely don't need the chart, but because you're not that familiar with her, you should probably go through it anyway as a precaution.

Well, I'm fooling Nacho! You can tell Nacho's townreading me because if he was scumreading me there'd be no way he wouldn't push me and if he wasn't sure he'd be interacting with me to figure it out. No interaction with me + no push against me = he's townreading me.

THE FLOWCHART:

Is it D1?
Yes-->...And you're suspicious of Mastin?!?
She's town.

I frankly deliberately scummed it up a little bit, but not enough to be caught. So broke this one.

Does Mastin look town?

No-->She's town.

Honestly my play doesn't really look that town. So broke this one.

Trust her as town.

What does she do?

Get paranoid of you-->She's town.
Enthusiastically work with you-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
Nothing-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
Milk your townread and bully you-->Proceed.

This one, sadly, remains intact, because the closest there's been to anyone trusting me is LC, and I've been MILKING it.

Suddenly pressure her.

What does she do?

Freak out-->She's town.

Well, I haven't fully freaked out, but I have been fairly ballistic. So broken.

Is she posting up a storm?

Yes-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.

Yep! Well, sort-of. So half-broken.

Is she gloating how good her scumgame is?

Yes-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.

Damn right I did! I flaunted it. So broken.

Does Mastin have delusions of grandeur?

Yes-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.

Sort

-of? So kinda broken.

Is she waffling...
...A lot?

Sorta?-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.

Not really, but a little bit, so very partially broken.

Does she look like she's trying to leave a legacy?

Yes-->She's town.
Maybe-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Frankly I should remove this because I basically never do it in my towngames anyway, so not broken.

Is she antagonizing everyone?

Yes-->She's town.

Well,

almost

everyone. So broken.

Has Mastin rambled at all on MD theory?

Yes-->She's town.

Sort-of; my talk about the gamebreaking strategy touches on it. (Though that's as close as I get to it anyway in my town games, so sure, let's call this one broken.)

Is Mastin making a case for why she could be scum?
Yes-->She's town.

Yep! I did this! So, broken.

Is Mastin making very strong reasons why she's town?
No-->She's town.
Kinda-->Prob-town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
Yes-->Proceed.

This one's an odd case. I'd say unbroken because of the strong reasons for the commuter (myself) to be town.

If applicable, did she 'crumb her role and/or claim it openly and immediately?

Yes-->She's town.

Well, to be fair, it's my

real

role, so I can't say this one's broken. It's

half

-broken, though.

Do the circumstances behind her play and/or claim look town?

Yes-->She's town.

Pretty much, yeah. Wouldn't have LC on my side if they weren't! (No, seriously. This is like, the number one thing to fear from sthar8. Yet both heads see me as town, so they must think the circumstances behind my play and/or claim are town, ergo, by passing their standard, I have broken this tell.)

Is she irrational?

Yes-->She's town.

Given my spat with Shakira Confirmed? Yep, broken.

Is she spewing random illogical theories?

Sadly not broken since my theories haven't been random nor illogical.

Does her posting look intentional?

Also sadly not broken since my posting has been ridiculously intentional; I've been controlling everything about it.

Is she spontaneous, random, and/or whimsical?

And yet a third time, sadly not, since my play's been very direct.

Is her tone flat?

No-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.

I'd say I broke this one.

Is Mastin's posting wildly inconsistent?

Sadly not broken.

(Oh, and I think rambling in-thread's already there*, but if not, it should be.)
*Relies on scum having daychat. Scum have daychat, in-thread rambling = decent towntell. Scum don't have daychat, rambling = prob-null, maybe slight townlean. Scum daychat ambiguous, assume slight townlean.

(Oh, should be noted. Last scum, rambling in-thread gets upgraded to major towntell, since scuMastin typically keeps rambles to the scum QT about why she's screwed.)

Have I rambled? Not sure. Maybe broken, maybe not, would need to check.

"If you're townreading Mastin, lynch her. She's scum, having successfully predicted your movements and is manipulating you. You fell into her trap, hook, line, and sinker.
If you're scumreading Mastin, she's town; save her from the lynch. She's probably either really onto something or really lost. In either case, she needs your help, either to sheep her or help her develop more accurate reads."

This one I definitely didn't break though because yeah I've made some pretty good predictions this game and I'm feeling in my element. So a fair amount of breaks, though not as many as I'd like.

Oh, and speaking of being in my element...

Hello, my name is Metal Sonic (mastin2), and I am the scum mastermind of (in)Organic Chemistry. I have my scumbuddies pirate mollie (ika), PeregrineV (Aristophanes), and ZZZX (vezokpiraka), and we're here to give the town a solid fight.

;)

Btw, this is to the Shakira post.

I basically have no fear of them.

In fact, I'd welcome them investigating me.
Why?

Because them investigating me is just about the STUPIDEST thing they could do.
-It would get rid of someone who we needed to nightkill anyway.
-It would silence their voice and by proxy increase my own.
-It gives us a free Cerb mislynch because we have the "follow the chain" strategy.
"But Mastin! We said we'd target you! Surely they'd lynch you before Cerb!"
And that assumption, m'friends, are why you would be stupid to actually target me.

Because no, they wouldn't. They'd go after Cerb, because your posting about targeting me looks to be out of frustration towards me, a one-off thought, not something you'd actually do. (This is quite intentional manipulation on my part. I originally intended for this on Sonic, but it works just as well when applied to you.) Cerb looks naturally scummy to people anyway, and the chain-plan is what everyone is assuming we're doing, so if you break the chain plan, then your fault for assuming the town would be smart enough to figure out that you did; bluntly, no they wouldn't--maybe one or two would, but the town as a whole wouldn't.

"...Shit. You're right. But surely after that, you'd get lynched, so it might still be worth it!"

You would

think

so, but not necessarily. It depends on the key players (particularly, LC and Nacho) and how they read me. If they value play over role, then no, they won't lynch me. I will live because they'll be

convinced

that with my play being as it is, and my role as it is, that I could only be town, with your death caused by some other factor: hipgunning a random player, budriver, etc. Admittedly, I can't guarantee this'll happen. It's possible it won't. It's possible they turn against me, and if they do, then I die.

But only IF they do. So that plan of yours of targeting me?

I say go ahead! Has my blessing! :D

...Or I would, if I had any pro-town reason for wanting you to have the invention and investigating me. Sadly, the pro-town view is for me to say that because you're already in the chain as conftown, you should NOT be the target for the invention, because it's a redundant waste. Alas.

Not Vanilla, but not anything like rolecop, cop, jailkeeper, or doctor.
Especially not a redirector.
Be creative.


Also, I know I left the Kari wagon, but not to worry--it's a gambit for towncred/reverse psychology of a sort. The idea more or less being, if I am scum with Aristophanes, why suddenly leave and go after someone who's probably never getting lynched?
If need be, I'll switch back.

Kari might be scum with you instead of Ari. Decisions. Decisions.

Mission.
Accomplished.

;)

No, seriously, Flum.
You've underestimated the power of The Scumside. :P

Making people think that is

exactly

why I did that.
When I said my scumgame was good...I meant it was pretty damn good. The most dangerous factor about my scumgame is that I hold a fundamental grasp of player psychology, so I can scum it up in-thread all I'd like so long as doing so furthers a scum agenda. In this case, by earning a mislynch and deflecting away from my buddy. Which I ironically warned you about because my scumgames are also fairly cheeky, in that I told you I as scum would be keeping my scumbuddies more in the middle which is exactly where ika and vezok are and sort-of where Aristophanes is.

That's right.
By scumreading me, you're HELPING me.

I'm THAT good.

(Incidentally, this is why I feel 0% threatened by both you, Fuminator, and your close ally Sonic. The most threatening aspect about your two slots are that you're conftown. I mean, it's legit annoying that you don't buy the commute being town and hold that persistent scumread on me, but while

annoying

, it's not threatening. The players I actually consider the most threatening are the players TOWNREADING me. Because if they turn on me, not only am I dead, but they become conftown. So ideally, I need to make them dead at a fairly rapid rate. Furthermore, while I've successfully manipulated them into townreading me, they're also the players most likely to figure out my methods, and therefore be immune to my machinations. I'm manipulating you in spite of you scumreading me because by virtue of your scumread on me, I'm controlling the flow of the game to go more in the direction convenient for me. Players like Nacho know better. They just flat-out try to lynch me, which is the CORRECT move. Thus why I fear them.)

Maybe. Which would make it extremely dangerous.

Also, to Wicked: the resemblance between this game and the first is completely, entirely, 100% coincidental. I mean, I know I've misread you a ton of times, but me doing a near-exact replica of my posting the first time 'round was entirely unintentional.

I'd be scumreading you as town and am doing so now, and even doing so in the town way I would: the logical thing for me to do right now would be to compromise on whichever of Kari or Aristophanes that I'd prefer, but town!Mastin is defined by being illogical...thus the vanity-vote on you, which is me going absolutely nuts about you being scum getting away with it.

So you're right, I'm scum, but you're wrong about the why. I'm not scum because I'm having absolute confidence in you being scum like I did the first time we played. I'm scum because I'm playing a perfect replica of my towngame which happens to involve by coincidence a resemblance to the first time we played.

Flum, I do hope you're not leaving because of me, either.
I'm a scummy scumbutt. Aggravating you was part of my wincon.

Also, I kinda feel bad for Wicked.
He's right about me being scum.
And unlike Flum, doing the right thing by voting me.

The problem is...he's doing so in such a hilariously-bad way that it'll make me look better and probably him look worse...which furthers my scum agenda, meaning he hasn't broken free of the manipulation, either.

Also, Aristophanes, if you're going to replace out anyway, you might as well do so now--you can say you'll continue to play until a replacement is found, but if Anti's going to have to replace you, might as well start looking now rather than later.

Not really; people are already aware of it that are relevant.

I think one of the best things to do is ask Antihero for a deadline extension, given the need for three replacements.

Also, I asked AP and PV if they could play, since both played the first time 'round and both would probably be good as either alignment in the game. (Though AP obviously would be better on our side for chances of winning, and better on the town side for my personal amusement.)

Nacho can also be incredibly irrational if you push the right buttons.
It's just that an irrational Nacho is MORE dangerous than a rational Nacho so I wouldn't dare teach you how. :P

@Mastin: Did you sent in your invention?

Yes, but I forget on who. Not someone important though.

Can't.

I'm going to go my own route.

Ika kills: Flubbernugget

.

Trust me, though, you'll be fine if I can get some weight.

The Aristophanes wagon is all town, but the town doesn't

know

it's all-town. There's going to be more suspicion there than you think, and PV's still gonna catch some heat.

Wicked in particular is also a very viable mislynch.
So you should be safe, if we play our cards right.

We just need to basically hope some of the people we want dead are the third inventor. (Like LC, TSO, and Nacho.)

Actually, I'm hilariously underweight.

6'2".

Guess my weight.

I'm ~10-20 (average 15 or so) pounds heavier than I was two years ago.

How much did I weigh back then?

130.

No, seriously. Dead serious, I weighed myself daily. At 6'2", for years upon years, I was

130

pounds.

you're 6''2'?
holy crap...

And was predicted to be two inches taller than that, which could have happened. One half of my genes gets an early growth spurt, the other half a late one. The early one got me to 6'2" in my teens, so there was potential for a late one, though it never materialized.


Also, legit confused right now.
What the heck is going on in the town?
The game was very clear: three inventors.
I am an inventor, I gifted to the Shakira slot I believe.
Flub was an inventor.
There is one mysterious inventor that had been gifting to Shakira.
So...what the heck is going on? There's no explanation for two town players getting a mysterious invention last night.

Oh.
Cerb's the third.
There we go.

Saves us the trouble of hunting the third down. (I was going to do that next night phase, by tracking who received the inventions...AKA, the way I figured out Flub was the weak cop inventor D2 off of it being SONIC BOOM of all people getting it.) I legit would probably have gotten it right, but it's always good to have confirmation.

'Course, with it out in the open, our options are:
-Protect him as if I were town, let the third invention potentially wreck havoc. (A la tracker in Organic.) But also potentially get massive towncred and allow us to kill off conftown without any suspicion whatsoever from doing so. (That being, because the commuter is on Cerb, of course the conftown are vulnerable.)
-Have me fake not seeing the claim, essentially not being around for a full day phase, to justify me "missing" the claim, allowing us to nightkill him. (This is borderline unethical though, so I would MASSIVELY prefer we not do this one even if what we do instead of this one ends up screwing us over. In essence, I'd rather lose and keep my ethics than employ this one and win.)
-Have me fake a "gambit" of protecting conftown, 'in the hopes that the scum would assume the commuter is on Cerb', and kill Cerb. (Which let's be honest, the town would have to be pretty dang stupid to buy. It'd most likely just lead to the last.)
-Have me not give a commute out at all, kill Cerb, and gambit on the town believing either a redirect or strongman is in play. (Which, well, is slightly more believable especially with my acting, but let's be honest, will probably still lead to the last.)
-Or just flat-out sacrifice me to take the inventors out of the equation.

I'm open to the last one assuming you two can live through the day, since my associations are fairly decent with you and vice-versa, but generally I prefer not to die in a 1-v-1 trade (since 1-v-1 trades benefit the town more than scum), both of you have a fair number of people thinking you're scum whereas I for the moment seem to have almost none, and the more scum dead = the harder it'll be to win. (And let's face it, of all of us four, I'm the most charismatic by far, meaning that with me gone, it'll be much harder to carry pro-scum weight in the town.)

So it's a possibility, but I'm sort-of leaning towards risking the first. Thoughts?

Actually, thinking about it, screw options 3-5.
You guys can do that any night, and I do mean any night, you want, if I'm lynched.

That is, if I'm lynched, Cerb is left exposed.
If you kill Cerb, then the inventors are out of the equation.
Meaning that I'm very heavily leaning towards gambitting on #1. If it screws me over, I get lynched, you kill Cerb, inventions are out of the game.
If it doesn't screw me over, I'm poised to win at any point.

Seem reasonable?

I do like how even after delivering us a crippling blow (well, not too terribly much considering we had what we needed the most, are smart enough we could have figured this out, and Cerb made it so that we didn't need to, butstill, scum lynch is a setback especially given all four scum were off the lynch), the town seems to be without direction, though.

I mean, probably won't last, with us having a very tough fight ahead of us, 'specially with this many conftown and tough players to boot, but FOR THE MOMENT, at least I can take comfort in them being like a headless chicken running around. (Calm before the storm, mastina. Don't get ahead of yourself. Don't get arrogant. It's the calm before the storm, you've still got a good fight ahead, calm before the storm...)

you're 6''2'?

holy crap...

Eh, you can. Won't stop you.
Right now I haven't given an invention out because as town I wouldn't have done so quite yet. So if the day ends before I read, then Cerb will die.
If I 'catch up' (I'm obviously already caught up, and am enjoying watching LC facepalm quite rightly at the town idiocy), though, I'm giving the invention to Cerb.
If you kill him and he dies, great, he didn't use it. If you kill him and nothing happens, I get free towncred.

Win-win-win.

(But of course, we'll constantly be reevaluating things every moment.)

*grumble, grumble, TSO why do you have to be so COMPETENT, gripe, gripe*
You know you're in a bad position when your best mislynch options are

TSO

and

Nacho

. (Side of Lying Cat.)
(No, seriously, TSO and Nacho are the best mislynch options I'm seeing right now for us. You might be able to push one or both of them, but I can't push either of them aside from faking paranoia...which I can't do today. Tomorrow, maybe, sure, yeah. If they turn on me and try to lynch me, sure, yeah. I can turn on them then. Short of that, though, there's no way I can make it convincing. Not in the current gamestate. Though I might be able to fit Lying Cat paranoia in there...)

Yeah, they're actually going after Cerb is...pretty flabbergasting.

Like, I almost want to go, "IT'S A TRAP!" in here about it being too good to be true, that it's some sort of reaction-test to pass/fail.
Because, just...wow. Could they screw themselves over any harder with that?

I mean, I don't think it'll actually go through. Would be absolutely hilarious if it did, but it almost certainly won't. Butstill, that it's even an OPTION is just...
...Well, it's a godsend for US at least.

For the record: I will never lie in my scumgames about circumstances.
I will

mislead

, to hide how caught up I am. Right now, I am fully caught up on the game. I am giving off the impression I'm not, but I am. However, I will never actually LIE about things. When I say I'm short on time, I really am--doesn't mean I won't spend some time (or haven't already spent time) catching up, though. It just means that I'm not going to post anything. (Except when I do.)

That applies to what I said right now. It's all true. The main time-consumer and motivation-drainer isn't reading. Reading is easy. It's WRITING that is a pain, and since that's what I need to do, well...I legitimately, right now, don't feel like I have the willpower to muster the energy to trudge through it, in spite of how easy it'll be. (Especially since I've read every word and pre-planned out all my responses.) It's something that I do in my towngame to a lesser extent, too. I'll read some, but not write anything, because it's too much of a bother, too much effort. And as town, I'll hold back on the reading somewhat (except when I don't), because I know I need to do commentary and it's best to do commentary live.

So while me not catching up and lurking is convenient to a scum agenda, and my post admitting to the reasons why I am doing what I am is meant for towncred, it is also entirely, 100%, not a lie. It's the truth. I'll post soon enough, it's just that I legitimately need to get into the right mindset which I currently am not in.

(Tl;dr, I will lie about my ability to post as both town and as scum; it's more debilitating as town because I generally feel more restricted and hold back more, but exists as both alignments and sometimes serves to further my scum agenda.)

My lurking, again, strategic, presumably like yours, vezok. (Because you're lurking too. I saw those prod-dodges, vezok.)

I made the determination that this is probably the point I needed to begin the catch-up, because people wouldn't wait to Sunday for me, but the way I figure it, by starting now, I'm either going to make things much better or much worse. If I make things much worse, then I sacrifice my weekend to save the game and turn things around. If I fail to turn things around, then you're left without your PRs, but you also have a solid gameplan laid out not to mention rock-solid interaction tells. If I do turn things around/make things better, well, then, we're in a better position, especially come Sunday when I get fully caught up.

I'm playing a very, very controlled, calculated, precise game, here. The demotivation was real, and an inconvenience, but my alignment regardless, it would have struck me, and needed to be overcome, so now that I've conquered it, I can use it to my advantage.

Early signs suggest 'much better'. If not for me, then for you at the very least.
(Really, the greatest obstacle in this game will be Nacho/LC/TSO in approximately that order of likelihood if they see through the mist, since they're not conftown, and therefore we can't afford the nightkills to take them out. If they see through the mist, our best chance is to get them lynched, which will be difficult. Otherwise, you two together--especially vezok--could honestly just carry the game by killing the inventor, killing the conftown, and working from there. I could maybe suggest a more advanced kill map if you'd like, but I'm really not sure it's necessary.)

Vezok, don't worry about my vote.
I'm distancing, not bussing.
I have absolutely zero intention of letting you die--my vote on you, to the contrary, is meant to increase your towncred.

The basic idea here is that I'm trying to make a reads trajectory on the two of you that makes it look like we could never, EVER be buddies. And since I'm more likely to be lynched than either of you, if I actually do go down, it makes both of you look MUCH better. (At least, that's the idea.)