Mini 644 - Meerkat Manor Mafia (Game Over!)

[StrangerCoug]

I strongly believe that Ectomancer is scum. I'm saying that I'm still debating whether the statement is still worthy of suspicion if it ends up being that I am wrong. It is true that I don't good reason to believe that both of you are scum; however I remind you that I currently believe you are town.

Also, you are taking my argument the wrong way. By "qualifiers" I meant words and phrases such as "if" or "I believe". If my argument were that you came out of nowhere and said it, I would have straight up FoS'd you without any second thoughts. The fact that you backed yourself up with evidence is the only reason why I haven't immediately thrown an FoS at you and still haven't done so.

Yes, I deserve the suspicion for my vote. I am not, however, saying your outright calling Ectomancer scum is worse or more FoS-worthy than that vote. That would contradict my saying that I don't know what to make of it. Uncertainty does not necessarily mean suspicion, and neither does intent to review a statement. At worst, the complete sentence "You are scum" in the context you put it in with what we have would be a minor FoS as it's a strong statement to make. Hasty votes like mine do not warrant that little suspicion, hence my confusion as to why you are equating the two.

Are there any other misunderstandings you would like to bring to my attention?

[Cass]

@Ectomancer: if had been on earlier, I might have hammered muffin instead of CKD. So I find it hard to see that as something scummy. There didn't seem to be much useful discussion anymore, a majority was convinced that he was scum, so a hammer seemed perfectly ok to me. Your defense that in certain circumstances it can be usefull to leave scum alive strikes me as really off - does it mean you knew yesterday that he was scum? Then why would you defend him? Semms self-destructive for a townie. It also simply does not apply to this situation. Bad fake-claim = lynch, definitely when there's still several scum alive.

[StrangerCoug]

Your defense that in certain circumstances it can be usefull to leave scum alive strikes me as really off - does it mean you knew yesterday that he was scum? Then why would you defend him? Semms self-destructive for a townie.

Town defending known scum makes no sense to me either, but neither does how it is self-destructive.

[Cass]

Well, if you know someone is scum, and you defend him - things look bad for you after he get's lynched. Defending him is also pretty much by definition lying, which is a bad thing for a townie to do. The kind of thing that gets you killed.

[StrangerCoug]

I understand now.

[Rishi]

Vote Count

Ectomancer – 1 (StrangerCoug)
curiouskarmadog – 1 (Ectomancer)

Not voting: Cass, jonathantan86, Rhinox, wolframnhart, curiouskarmadog

With 7 alive, it takes 4 votes to lynch.

[wolframnhart]

Right now I am torn. I still feel like jon is Muffins partner, I would even like to say my last post to him with his auto silence right now would mean i got him, but with the infrequency of his posts I can't say that is concrete. But with the way ectos posts have been lately I am really starting to wonder if i have the wrong person pegged.

[Rhinox]

Right now I am torn. I still feel like jon is Muffins partner, I would even like to say my last post to him with his auto silence right now would mean i got him, but with the infrequency of his posts I can't say that is concrete. But with the way ectos posts have been lately I am really starting to wonder if i have the wrong person pegged.

I was always under impression that a "standard, normal" configuration in a 12 player game is 3-scum, 1-sk, 8-town. Its legitimately possible that both ecto and jonathan "could" be scum. I don't like jonathan's lurking, and I don't like that neither ecto nor jonathan have expressed opinions about each other today, despite the ongoing conversation.

=====================================================

@CKD: Why did you unvote? Yes, your statement was risky in the event that ecto is lynched and is town. Does that mean you're being set up for tomorrow's lynch? I don't think so. It just means that for the same reason ecto is being scrutinized today, you would need to face the same type of scrutiny. For what its worth, I admired your resolve to make a statement like that. Every vote you've placed has been on a player who was anti-town (the exception being coug, and now ecto, but I guess the jury can still be out on both).

The dilemna we face now is that your unvoting shows you are not as confident as your original statement implied. What does that mean, exactly? Perhaps it means that

you

already know ecto is town, and that you thought (given your record in this game, and ecto's hole that he dug) you could get a bandwagon going on ecto leading to his lynch, but you got spooked when all coug did was imply that it would make you seem very scummy if/when ecto showed up town. Or maybe it does mean coug knows something about ecto's role, or maybe it means nothing at all. All I know is that when you make a strong statement like the one you did, only to back out of it less than 24 hours later, it creates more uncertainty in a situation that is already very dicey.

For the record, my gut also tells me that its quite obvious ecto should be lynched today - but thats also the problem. Its TOO obvious, looks TOO perfect, and seems way TOO easy. Its like its all wrapped up in a pretty little box with a bow for us - something that could have been set up once ecto made the decision to defend muffin. That is why I haven't place my vote yet.

[StrangerCoug]

curiouskarmadog does come off as panicky to me despite my current belief that he is town. I do not think he and Ectomancer are scumbuddies.

What I'm trying to establish in my defense is that, even though he supported his belief, "You are scum" by itself is too strong to ignore, even by town. I know nothing about Ectomancer other than what he posted and what has been said in thread about him. I haven't even meta'd him, and I don't plan to.

[Ectomancer]

Well, if you know someone is scum, and you defend him - things look bad for you after he get's lynched. Defending him is also pretty much by definition lying, which is a bad thing for a townie to do. The kind of thing that gets you killed.

@Ectomancer: if had been on earlier, I might have hammered muffin instead of CKD. So I find it hard to see that as something scummy. There didn't seem to be much useful discussion anymore, a majority was convinced that he was scum, so a hammer seemed perfectly ok to me. Your defense that in certain circumstances it can be usefull to leave scum alive strikes me as really off - does it mean you knew yesterday that he was scum? Then why would you defend him? Semms self-destructive for a townie. It also simply does not apply to this situation. Bad fake-claim = lynch, definitely when there's still several scum alive.

First, I had said that I thought there was a way to get info from a cop claim, even if you didnt actually know their alignment. There is, but it didnt apply in this situation. I never got the opportunity to follow up and say "hmm, it doesnt apply here, and here is why".
My entire point there was that we could possibly use him regardless. That is apparently scummy?
2nd, there I still see no problem with forcing people to defend their case.
3rd, it is a well known scum tactic to kill off conversation once you think one of them is busted, especially when someone like me was pursuing more information before a lynch.

If you have stopped looking for information at anytime during the game, even if you are 99.99% certain you have scum, you still have learning to do.

[Ectomancer]

P.S. - Posting walls of text, then later going back and saying "Look, you didnt respond to something", is really beneath response. If something wasn't answered, ask again without the scummy drama.

[Ectomancer]

ECTO you seem to completely be overlooking this post...is that on purpose or did you just over look it.

I am going to go ahead and

unvote

(for now)...

Vi, I am not sure why you are asking "is it worth keeping a non-helpful townie around"...a townie is a townie, I am not about to lynch someone because I think they are just unhelpful..I will lynch someone who i think is scummy...AND if he is telling the truth he might be a "non-helpful" townie that has a cop role.

Muffin, at this point, i want a PbP breakdown...a sentence or two will do..but I want your opinion on everyone...quit lurking, or I will return my vote.

I unvoted when he was at -1....I gave him time to provide insight...when he DIRECTLY avoided this question (his next post avoided it) and continued lurking I thought it was quite scummy...he obviously wasnt going to provide any additional information....and if I remember right..all the time you were defending him...

now you are trying to spin it like you were scum hunting when what you were really doing was trying to get muffin off the hook...nice.

you are scum.

To paraphrase " I really didnt want to vote him,and even unvoted him once, but by golly gosh gee darn it, I just had to"

You cut off a line of questioning I was pursuing, deal with the fact that I dont like you having done it.

[Ectomancer]

For the record, my gut also tells me that its quite obvious ecto should be lynched today - but thats also the problem. Its TOO obvious, looks TOO perfect, and seems way TOO easy. Its like its all wrapped up in a pretty little box with a bow for us - something that could have been set up once ecto made the decision to defend muffin. That is why I haven't place my vote yet.

This is WIFOM meta, but go read my games. Do you really think I make mistakes like this one? What I've garnered thus far is that I was protecting Muffin SO hard because I really didnt want to bus him. Who really gives a rats ass about your scum partner? The object of the game is to win, and I dont need a partner around to do it.
Why does it make sense for me to do what I did when the easy thing would have been a nice hammer Bus were I scum? Anybody could have hidden on that bus....
What I was after was more information, thought I had a way of getting it, but realized I was wrong before our boy got lynched.

[curiouskarmadog]

this is why I am not as certian...posts like this.

curiouskarmadog does come off as panicky to me despite my current belief that he is town. I do not think he and Ectomancer are scumbuddies.

why didnt you make comments like this BEFORE Rhino said it? So explain to me, WHY I am coming off panicky?....because I unvoted ecto? What was panicky about that? One minute you are role fishing ("CKD could be a cop"), next you are warping your motivations around others ("yeah, CKD is coming off panicky").

I am not liking your play today...I didnt like your play yesterday....I was pretty sure Ecto was scum, until you came out with that "I will have to review this comment later" post....Classic example of laying down the ground work for a set up tomorrow if Ecto flips town....what I am think now though, is that if we DO have another SK floating about...Coug is it. Post that leaves himself open to manuver tomorrow. Oppurtunistic voting. Following other's leads on motivation...classic...I have seen it many times. Of course, people busted my balls about the "to be honest" bit too.

Let it be known, that I still hold Ecto high on my scum list, but Coug's play today has put him well over that suspicion...

vote Coug

[curiouskarmadog]

P.S. - Posting walls of text, then later going back and saying "Look, you didnt respond to something", is really beneath response. If something wasn't answered, ask again without the scummy drama.

so did you not read Rhino's "wall of text"? If you did, why did you not answer the questions in it?

[curiouskarmadog]

Jesus christ...I think both of them are scum

You cut off a line of questioning I was pursuing, deal with the fact that I dont like you having done it.

what line of questioning did I cut off? (please provide the post number)

Did you or did you not defend muffin yesterday for MOST of the day?

Did you ever say you didnt believe the cop claim (please provide the post number)

[Rhinox]

P.S. - Posting walls of text, then later going back and saying "Look, you didnt respond to something", is really beneath response. If something wasn't answered, ask again without the scummy drama.

To whom is this directed towards? I feel a little insulted. Are you calling me scummy? I don't recall ever saying "look, you didn't respond to something", and the time you did ask me to shorten my posts because you can't answer to a wall of text (what, is it so hard to read?), I did.

You cut off a line of questioning I was pursuing, deal with the fact that I dont like you having done it.

Here's about as direct as I can put this: point me to a post of yours, after muffin claimed, where you asked a single question.

This is WIFOM meta, but go read my games. Do you really think I make mistakes like this one? What I've garnered thus far is that I was protecting Muffin SO hard because I really didnt want to bus him. Who really gives a rats ass about your scum partner? The object of the game is to win, and I dont need a partner around to do it.
Why does it make sense for me to do what I did when the easy thing would have been a nice hammer Bus were I scum? Anybody could have hidden on that bus....
What I was after was more information, thought I had a way of getting it, but realized I was wrong before our boy got lynched.

I never said you made a mistake by defending muffin - I just think its too convenient of an excuse for you to say to clear yourself that no scum would have made the mistake of so obviously defending muffin. No, actually I don't think anything you've said or done has be a mistake or unintended, which is why I don't buy the whole "I thought we could get accurate info from muffin the claimed cop but didn't realize he wasn't the last scum" defense. But if that was a mistake, certainly its not out of the realm of possibility that you might have made a mistake in thinking you could get away with trying to protect your scum partner.

Also ecto, aren't you even the slightest bit concerned that jonathan is lurking the day away while you're getting grilled?


As a final comment (gee, I hope this doesn't sound like scummy drama), its your responses today that speak volumes over your actions yesterday pointing to you being scum. Every post of yours has had a certain annoyed tone - I might have been able to believe you if you'd have simply come out today and said you were wrong for wanting to keep muffin around. Even little comments like this:

If you have stopped looking for information at anytime during the game, even if you are 99.99% certain you have scum, you still have learning to do.

This ain't no newbie game, and I'm certainly not going to let myself be taught how to play good townie in-game from a player who just might very well be scum. There are other examples like this comment.

Instead of just saying you were wrong, you've tried to justify your actions. Which is fine, except it feels like every reason you've given has been completely bogus. Your "best" defenses (that you wouldn't have made the mistake of defending you scum partner, that you might be set up, that you were wrong) you've either not utilized or presented in an unbelievable and scummy way.

At this point, although I'm more than happy to continue the discussion, I'm going to

vote: ecto
FoS: Jonathan

(Jonathan, for the record you would have recieved my vote by now if it weren't for the case on ecto)

I'm not trying to rush the day, or cut off information, or anything like that. But I do feel that ecto deserves to have at least 2 votes on him now, and I believe we will learn a ton of information about other players by knowing what exactly ecto is. Right now, I'm most interested to hear from jonathan.

[Ectomancer]

@Ectomancer: Surely flavor is not the only reason you want muffinhead alive.

I always liked Yosarian, and I believe that there is a situation whereby a scum cop must always tell the truth. I just have to remember what it is.

I got in one more jab about a weak case before you hammered and killed all conversation.

I attacked the case against Muffin, which is a fine line difference from defending the target of a case. This was reviewed already. Where were you?

It didn't matter whether I believed the cop claim (and at this point the cat is rather out of the bag isnt it?). If you've, I've said several times now that there is a situation whereby you can use the investigations by a claimed cop, regardless of their alignment. The problem is that you have to know you only have 1 scum. Remember that, it may come in useful one day. The game is only up when the claimed cop calls out guilty, then the game is afoot.
Anyhow, that wasnt the situation here, and as I've pointed out repeatedly, you hammered before I had time to reveal whether I believed him or not. Now is a bit late to ask that question. Might you have asked it before you hammered?

[Ectomancer]

@Rhinox - Im not wrong, and your vote is in irritation. I wasn't ready for the day to end, and I was certainly not going to be rushed along. As for your assumptions, your ego is leading you to believe every comment is aimed directly at you and in as negative a manner as possible. Cool your blood.

[wolframnhart]

I still think that Jon is scum. Rhinox is right that he is lurking away the day while Ecto gets grilled. I would believe that he is either an SK or Commando, and which ever he is Ecto might be the other. Especially in this quote where ecto actually asked us to leave Muffin head alone:

Im a sucker for flavor. Yosarian has

strong

ties to the whiskers. he could be a cop. leave him be.

I'm going to

vote Jonathan

and hope he comes out of hiding soon. For now I will

Fos Ecto

[curiouskarmadog]

wow, this wasnt even in a wall of text, but you ignored it anyway.

P.S. - Posting walls of text, then later going back and saying "Look, you didnt respond to something", is really beneath response. If something wasn't answered, ask again without the scummy drama.

so did you not read Rhino's "wall of text"? If you did, why did you not answer the questions in it?

you DID defend him yesterday...you DID NOT ask him questions and you WERE NOT waiting for answers. IT does matter if you stated you believed him or not yesterday...it gives your back track today some weight...

you had already implied in a least 2 posts that you were leaning to believing him.

I am tired of your lies.

At this point, i think Coug is an SK and Ecto is mafia.

unvote, vote Ecto.

this puts him at -1

I think it is time for you to claim.

[Cass]

Hm, that's quick, but certainly not unjustified. I too want a claim, and I won't hammer yet. I do think he's scum, but I want Jonathan to come back first, before I start contemplating ending the day.

[Rhinox]

@Rhinox - Im not wrong, and your vote is in irritation. I wasn't ready for the day to end, and I was certainly not going to be rushed along. As for your assumptions, your ego is leading you to believe every comment is aimed directly at you and in as negative a manner as possible. Cool your blood.

I'm cool as a cucumber, friend. You, sir, are clearly the one who's irritated.

[Rhinox]

@Rhinox - Im not wrong, and your vote is in irritation. I wasn't ready for the day to end, and I was certainly not going to be rushed along. As for your assumptions, your ego is leading you to believe every comment is aimed directly at you and in as negative a manner as possible. Cool your blood.

I'm cool as a cucumber, friend. You, sir, are clearly the one who's irritated.

[StrangerCoug]

this is why I am not as certian...posts like this.

curiouskarmadog does come off as panicky to me despite my current belief that he is town. I do not think he and Ectomancer are scumbuddies.

why didnt you make comments like this BEFORE Rhino said it? So explain to me, WHY I am coming off panicky?....because I unvoted ecto? What was panicky about that? One minute you are role fishing ("CKD could be a cop"), next you are warping your motivations around others ("yeah, CKD is coming off panicky").

As Rhinox pointed out, you made a strong statement and took it back. I simply interpret someone saying someone else is (as opposed to possibly or probably is) such and such an alignment as one of the three things I said, and I felt that you were on the panicky side before he brought it up. Once again, I'm not ruling out other possibilities.

I am not liking your play today...I didnt like your play yesterday....I was pretty sure Ecto was scum, until you came out with that "I will have to review this comment later" post....Classic example of laying down the ground work for a set up tomorrow if Ecto flips town....what I am think now though, is that if we DO have another SK floating about...Coug is it. Post that leaves himself open to manuver tomorrow. Oppurtunistic voting. Following other's leads on motivation...classic...I have seen it many times. Of course, people busted my balls about the "to be honest" bit too.

"Oh, let me make a note of this later so I can strawman curiouskarmadog." Yeah, right, that was the message I was getting across. Give me three examples from completed games of saying "I don't know how to go about such and such a comment, but it is noted" being an attempt at lining up lynches later and I'll believe your argument.

I seriously thought you were town, CKD. Now I'm having serious doubts.

FoS: curiouskarmadog