Open 169 - [Alternating 9P] OVER

[Paradoxombie]

Also you seem to be admitting you never scumhunt if all you're interested in is obvious things.

Depends on your definition of scumhunting. If its hunting scum, then I definitely do.

Not giving a straight answer is different from not answering question you haven't yet asked.

So you cannot give an example of you hunting scum? You seem to be avoiding that request.

[Empking]

Also you seem to be admitting you never scumhunt if all you're interested in is obvious things.

Depends on your definition of scumhunting. If its hunting scum, then I definitely do.

Not giving a straight answer is different from not answering question you haven't yet asked.

So you cannot give an example of you hunting scum? You seem to be avoiding that request.

Quote of that request please.

[Paradoxombie]

RayFrost, where do you stand on all this?

I find the case on empking to be points for bugging him to contribute more, but to actually get him lynched over (especially after the khamisa stuff)... not really.

Soooo...

Poke Of Doom: Empking

post content, please.

Is my big example.

Its scummy because he either thinks its scummy yet is doing it or he doesn't think its scummy and he's faking his scumhunting.

So you are saying ray is contributing as little as you? I'd tend to disagree but I might have to recount. His iso posts look a lot more numerous than yours. And they have more content imo.

[Paradoxombie]

So you cannot give an example of you hunting scum? You seem to be avoiding that request.

Quote of that request please.

I'd like you to point to a single example of serious scumhunting on your part. Seriously. After that, tell me whether you suspect ray and why.

[Empking]

Also you seem to be admitting you never scumhunt if all you're interested in is obvious things.

Depends on your definition of scumhunting. If its hunting scum, then I definitely do.

Not giving a straight answer is different from not answering question you haven't yet asked.

So you cannot give an example of you hunting scum? You seem to be avoiding that request.

Quote of that request please.

That's scumhunting.

Para: Of course RF has more posts than me, he's been here from the beginning.

if you look at it objectively his posts don't have more original content.

[Paradoxombie]

RayFrost, where do you stand on all this?

I find the case on empking to be points for bugging him to contribute more, but to actually get him lynched over (especially after the khamisa stuff)... not really.

Soooo...

Poke Of Doom: Empking

post content, please.

That's nice, basically quote my last post as your own, then tell Empking to contribute more content. Hypocritical, no?

FoS: Ray

RayFrost, if you had to lynch someone right now, who would it be?

I think this is a weak call. You said Empking is hard to analyze, how much can you expect ray to add. And it's not like he just piped in with the same opinion, YOU asked him for it.

Second, I'm saying I don't feel solid enough to have either of them lynched right now. Also, I'm not sure how para, who's posted quite recently, has been "absent for a little while." Would you mind explaining that a bit more?

Don't you remember that Paradoxombie needed to be prodded for his return? He was gone for 5 days, 5 days when your "case" existed on him. This is an all-too-obvious attempt to lessen the weight of my actual arguments by trying to "disprove" details, which would make me seem less reliable. It pains me to let Haylen go, after yet another IOU, but I just have to.

unvote, Vote: RayFrost

I don't see your argument here. If he was trying to dispute you by misrepresenting facts, why would he ask you to explain further? How does he lessen the argument by asking you to clarify? I cannot understand why that merits a vote.

This just seems like a weak attempt at a case to me. You already admitted one argument(Saying "To Be Honest") was stretching it. I can hardly see how these other arguments show any real scumminess on Ray's part.

FOS

DO

[Deuxieme Octopus]

for the part that you just quoted, i was saying that Ray was avoiding defending himself against the meat of my argument by picking out a detail that he thought he could disprove, making the rest of my argument seem less credible.

[Paradoxombie]

Quote of that request please.

That's scumhunting.

Yes, me scumhunting you.

You make it pretty clear that you haven't gotten any real content and you haven't done any unique analysis.

Your arguments for khamisa were either false or regurgitated
your argument against ray is just a rehash of a post by DO
and you have no case against Haylen.

You've contributed nothing meaningful as far as I can see, and I'm fairly certain Ray has at least tried to make some real arguments.

[Empking]

Since a post by me scumhunting you is seen by you as a post by scumhunting me its obvious that I could be doing all the scumhunting in the thread and you'd still take credit for it.

Especially considering I most definately didn't copy one of "DO against RF" or "Someone else for Kham" (I don't know which) its pretty clear that you're either making stuff up or seeing what you want to see.

[dank]

You've contributed nothing meaningful as far as I can see, and I'm fairly certain Ray has at least tried to make some real arguments.

I don't like this quote.

1. Khamisa also contributed nothing meaningful; did that make her scum? There needs to be more of a case on someone than being useless.

2. Have you read the arguments Ray tried to make? I feel like you're giving him credit for just making arguments, instead of judging the arguments on their content. His arguments have been very poor.

You said I may be understating lurking in this game, which could be true since I see it as more anti-town than scummy. I think to a greater extent, you're overestimating it's value.

[Paradoxombie]

for the part that you just quoted, i was saying that Ray was avoiding defending himself against the meat of my argument by picking out a detail that he thought he could disprove, making the rest of my argument seem less credible.

Well you don't seem interested in asking that the questions that need asking.

Ray, why do you suspect me? You honestly want me to be lynched merely because i pressured DO when he outed the doctor? You've been riding this one reason all day, and you've gotten so caught up in defending yourself that I'm not seeing any scumhunting.

FOS

Ray

[dank]

I guess the best way to put it is i'm looking for more "upper level" scum behavior. Simple lurking/uselessness is easy to spot, but its also easy to make mistakes with. I feel like we should be looking for more in depth stuff, like my posts on ray. Khamisa and Empking seem like those kinds of "easy" lynches, and I feel like they could be traps that mafia is walking us into.

You are pushing emp alot, Para. Have YOU properly considered the case on ray, because from your posts, it does not look like you have. If you dislike the case, could you point what you dislike about it specifically. Strawmanning the case to agressiveness and posting alot does not convince me you're even taking it seriously. Of all the posts I made in the last few pages building up the case, what don't you like?

[Paradoxombie]

You've contributed nothing meaningful as far as I can see, and I'm fairly certain Ray has at least tried to make some real arguments.

I don't like this quote.

1. Khamisa also contributed nothing meaningful; did that make her scum? There needs to be more of a case on someone than being useless.

2. Have you read the arguments Ray tried to make? I feel like you're giving him credit for just making arguments, instead of judging the arguments on their content. His arguments have been very poor.

You said I may be understating lurking in this game, which could be true since I see it as more anti-town than scummy. I think to a greater extent, you're overestimating it's value.

Is ray scum because he makes bad arguments? All you do is criticize his arguments, but does town never make bad arguments? Are scum more likely to? You haven't told me much in terms of motivations or actions.

And do you honestly find Empking's arguments superior to ray's? Neither have partaken in any serious analysis of their choices as far as I can see.

[dank]

Ray's arguments haven't been bad, they've been scummy, and i've pointed out why. Empkings arguments are garbage, but I think thats more because his playstyle is garbage.

Ray, why do you suspect me? You honestly want me to be lynched merely because i pressured DO when he outed the doctor? You've been riding this one reason all day, and you've gotten so caught up in defending yourself that I'm not seeing any scumhunting. FOS Ray ]

Quote from dank two pages ago:

Paradox: Ray made an argument against him, poked at it a bit. He says the suspicions are solid and havent been well defended against. Yet he doesn't follow it up. Ray's basically let this "good" case drop, and instead of pushing paradox further, just announces that he had a good case on paradox, but not worthy of a lynch. Good scumhunting.

It's like you're fosing him for a little part of my case on him that you didn't seem to read. Interesting.

[Paradoxombie]

Ray's arguments haven't been bad, they've been scummy, and i've pointed out why. Empkings arguments are garbage, but I think thats more because his playstyle is garbage.

Ray, why do you suspect me? You honestly want me to be lynched merely because i pressured DO when he outed the doctor? You've been riding this one reason all day, and you've gotten so caught up in defending yourself that I'm not seeing any scumhunting. FOS Ray ]

Quote from dank two pages ago:

Paradox: Ray made an argument against him, poked at it a bit. He says the suspicions are solid and havent been well defended against. Yet he doesn't follow it up. Ray's basically let this "good" case drop, and instead of pushing paradox further, just announces that he had a good case on paradox, but not worthy of a lynch. Good scumhunting.

It's like you're fosing him for a little part of my case on him that you didn't seem to read. Interesting.

That "little part" is the only realistic part to me. It's one of the few things that Ray clearly did/didn't do. But you don't seem to find it significant for some reason. It's easily the best point against him. Yet you're case is so bloated that it's barely mentioned.

[Paradoxombie]

Ray is a new player, and he openly said he wasn't a good scumhunter. But just because Empking has a reputation he is less scummy?

[dank]

oh, so

[qopte]Empking cuz he's distracting and making it harder for town to concentrate elsewhere.[/quote]

isn't a suggestion for a policy lynch that ray's been preaching against all day? The same kind of lynch that he led on khamisa D1 proving to be a mislynch?

[dank]

ebwop:

oh, so

Empking cuz he's distracting and making it harder for town to concentrate elsewhere.

isn't a suggestion for a policy lynch that ray's been preaching against all day? The same kind of lynch that he led on khamisa D1 proving to be a mislynch?

[dank]

Ray is a new player, and he openly said he wasn't a good scumhunter. But just because Empking has a reputation he is less scummy?

Empking has a reputation as being a pretty bad player, as you can see by reading his other games. Why aren't you discounting his play because of that?

[Lynx The Antithesis]

Ray is a new player, and he openly said he wasn't a good scumhunter. But just because Empking has a reputation he is less scummy?

Empking has a reputation as being a pretty bad player, as you can see by reading his other games. Why aren't you discounting his play because of that?

You may say Empking has a bad reputation to excuse his behavior as an "easy lynch". But the same can be argued for Ray when he is a relatviely new player as well.

Ray pushed Khamisa, but what's worse being an active role in a lynch or just subtly being part of a wagon? Like Paradox said Empking just floated around after voting Khamisa with little mention of it after the vote. Then, day 2 to make it look like he's done something by claiming he lead the wagon. He's done the same thing you dislike about the Khamisa wagon Day 2 with a vote on Haylen. Again, he just votes Haylen and hasn't pushed her at all. In fact he hasn't pushed anyone Day 2. If he plays bad town like you say, he'd play just as poorly as scum too.

I'm starting to feel like DO is also floating by today as well. DO, would you mind answering my questions from post 429?

[Deuxieme Octopus]

Didn't realize there were outstanding questions posed to me. This is from post 429, which you cited, Lynx.

DO, I don't understand the extent of your problems with Rayfrost about the lynch candidates. Did you not ask him who he'd he'd be willing to lynch right now? He answered who he'd be willing to lynch if he had to right now. He just didn't use the "right now" like you did. What is scummy about this?

I've answered this already, albeit indirectly so I'll restate it in context here. Obviously Ray doesn't have the power to lynch anyone

right now

. It's just a forceful way to get a List of Suspicions, and in this particular case it happened to provoke a contradiction: namely, that although Ray, by his own account, does not support another policy lynch (which defined his case against Khamisa D1) he puts a player on whom he has NEUTRAL read in the number two spot (Empking) implying that he would support a policy lynch again. Contradictions are inherently scummy, because the indicate a lack of honesty.

How is Empking's response to your similar question any better? He basically dodged it while Ray answered "honestly" at least?

Empking's response was pretty terrible (he gave me one sentence that was a complete deflection) but at the same time I'm having a hard time analyzing that because it exactly the same amount of effort that he's put into answering anyone else's questions. I'm going back and forth between Ray and Emp as of right now; my vote's on Ray, but I'm beginning to doubt the merit there, at least over Emp. It will take some rereading.

And Lynx, what is this about me skating by today? If you think there's more I could be doing, I'd be happy to oblige.

[Lynx The Antithesis]

And Lynx, what is this about me skating by today? If you think there's more I could be doing, I'd be happy to oblige

I feel you're not pressing the people you vote. Like you slapping it on, but don't develop upon it much further. First Haylen, and now Ray.

I just don't see Ray as scum right now. Especially in comparison to Empking. I feel like he's still relatively green with an examination of the frequency of his posts coupled with the self-deprecating attitude when he expresses how he's bad at scum hunting. Most often a trait exhibited by town from my experience. I don't think I will be a part of his wagon today unless I saw some truly egregious scum tell. I read him town.

[Lynx The Antithesis]

Mod

, can you prod/replace haylen she's posted all day on the general discussion board, but continues to ignore her obligation to this game. She has yet to make any real contribution to this game and it's starting to grow unfair.

[Paradoxombie]

ebwop:

oh, so

Empking cuz he's distracting and making it harder for town to concentrate elsewhere.

isn't a suggestion for a policy lynch that ray's been preaching against all day? The same kind of lynch that he led on khamisa D1 proving to be a mislynch?

Yes I'm pretty sure that why Empking wasn't his primary choice? And if Ray had the choice we wouldn't be lynching Empking, we'd be lynching me. The way you're framing it sounds like Empking is the one he wants lynched.

Ray is a new player, and he openly said he wasn't a good scumhunter. But just because Empking has a reputation he is less scummy?

Empking has a reputation as being a pretty bad player, as you can see by reading his other games. Why aren't you discounting his play because of that?

I never thought his play was bad, I just think it looks like scum. When I played with scum Empking he also played like this.

[dank]

He wants empking lynched if we don't lynch you. That's putting his policy lynch case above four other players. Though its not his first choice, its still the choice he's making. That doesn't bother you?