Mafia 68: Ork - Game over!

[Shanba]

I meant the one where I asked you to compare plusses/negatives.

Meh. At this point I see what you mean, but it does require us to force the d1 lynch and if both of them are town it gives the scum a benefit in that they can steal another unclaimed role (and therefore disrupt things a bit more). However, I'm willing to go ahead if just Khel indicates his acceptance of massclaim.

[Shanba]

Also, I don't like the fact that it would basically force our d1 lynch somewhere in order to cover our arses.

[Guardian]

Also, I don't like the fact that it would basically force our d1 lynch somewhere in order to cover our arses.

It would force our d1 wagon somewhere. If after being wagoned to -2 they didn't claim, and they were town, they are idiots.

[Kinetic]

I just noticed on about page 14 or 15 Khel said he would claim if the consensus was such. I'll get that quote and post the updated (and possibly final) list in a couple moments. At this point only Haut Boy is absent, and he/his replacement will have virtually no choice. I would really like to hear from him before we claim but I think we're just holding up the game for nothing...

[Kinetic]

I would feel better without a massclaim, but if that is what the majority thinks, I don't think I have enough experience when compared to someone like coolbot.

Do I have a choice in the matter?

I'm pretty sure that means if the majority believes in mass claim he will to.

Updated

spectrumvoid

Shanba

Support

Guardian

Support

scotmany12

Against

but will claim

Urzassedatives

Fireaxe

Support

Gorrad

Support

Sefer

Support

Khelvaster

Against

but will claim
CoolBot

Support

IH

Against

but will claim
Mastermind of Sin

Support

Kinetic

Support

Pie_is_good

Support

Mert

Tarhalindur

Support

Yosarian2

Support

Haut Boy

Never Posted still...

curiouskarmadog

Against

but will claim

So we have 11 Supports
4 Against, but will claim (CKD, IH, Khel, scot)
1 Never Posted (Haut Boy)

Some things might be, just bold Support or Against in your post and I'll update if I'm wrong.

[Kinetic]

And just a reminder, I believe the consensus here is that the Doctor and Priest will claim TOWNIE. Priest will claim day 2 with a report on the Inspector.

[Shanba]

Yes, that is correct. Also, vig should not kill, imho.

[Kinetic]

Shanba that is dumb. Vig killing confirms the Vig Claim and also narrows down our unconfirmed town suspects. I can see a town pointed out Vig kill, but having the Vig not kill is completely wasting a role that could possibly be NKed very soon.

We need to get as much out of the Vig as possible. If you are worried about a Priest or Doc miskill well that sucks indeed, but honestly it is a chance we need to take.

If you don't agree with a completely town directed Vig kill, then perhaps a list of three suspects for Vig kill and let the Vig decide who to kill. This will also allow the Inspector to choose his suspect from the remaining townies so we don't have the possibility of the Inspector checking someone the Vig is targeting to kill.

[Shanba]

No, you haven't thought it through properly.
d1
worst case scenario, vig kills:
d1 18 alive 12 townie claims
d2 15 alive 9 townie claims (priest claims)
d3 12 alive 6 townie claims (doc claims and lylo, becuase of lyncher)
worst case scenario, vig no kills
d1 18 alive 12 townie claims
d2 16 alive 10 townie claims (priest claims)
d3 14 alive 9 townie claims
d4 12 alive 7 townie claims (doc claims and lylo, because of lyncher)

This is on the assumption of scum never killing townies and town always killing townies.

You see, having the vig kill only gains us one extra townie kill and increases the risk of the doc or the priest being killed. Also, it robs us of a day/night cycle which the inspector can use to regain the lost ground on the vigging of townie claims. Not to mention, if a scum is killed, it's better by lynch: we gain more info from the wagon on the scum than we do from a vigkill.

You assume we have to get as much out fo the vig as possible. That's true, however, in this case that means the vig shouldn't kill. Not all roles are necessarily good for the town, and in this case the vig isn't good for the town.

[Mastermind of Sin]

The vig should kill the first night to confirm themselves as the actual vig. After that, the Vig shouldn't kill unless we have a scum to kill (ie, we lynch wrong on a counterclaim and the vig kills the scumz for us).

My internet is screwy, don't expect much in the way of posting until we get new internet soon.

[Shanba]

yeah, that works. In which case, obviously, they should say who they're killing beforehand.

[CoolBot]

they should say who they're killing beforehand.

Why? We'll know who the vig targets anyway. By announcing it, we lower the chances that scum will target the same person.

[IH]

So what if the vig kills the priest who has claimed townie?

[CoolBot]

It's the chance we take. And the vig telling us who he targets beforehand won't change that anyway.

[IH]

I'm still unsure of this plan.... The advantage of a massclaim on day 1 is to stop roles from being claimed later as scum could have killed anyone of them.

if we have power roles claim townie, then we essentially go into the same scenario, though I'm unsure how much more of a chance.

Still I think it's an even worse risk to take this way. I WOULD refuse to claim if all power roles did not claim.

[Yosarian2]

Yos, you are assuming that the scum will all claim townie. If they counterclaim any power roles, they can't just start killing them off, because that blows their cover.

Yeah, I'm assuming that in a mass claim the scum claim townie, except perhaps for one who claims the role that got killed, because I have trouble seeing a scum counterclaim a pro-town role on day 1.

And, if they all claim townie, we have 5 power roles confirmed and like 12-15 townies or w/e to sift through for scum, between the Investigator, Vig, and our Lynch.

Well, yes. I mentioned that. Which dosn't really improve our odds of a lynch, but it does somewhat improves the cop's odds of finding scum (or the miller), while also incresing the odds the doc getting nightkilled, vigged, or bandwagoned to a claim.

With your strategy of only having the mason/vig/governor claim when they are about to be lynched, that means that the cop can never give us innocent results, because it can't be believed. We could run hypocop if it weren't for the fact that we have only partial-reveal.

Meh. Scum claim cop so rarely, I'm not that worried about it, and without a mass claim, there's a good chance they'll still be a priest around to check the claim out. Besides, the only limit on the "partial reveal" thing is the scum kills anyway; if someone claims cop and then the scum kill him, it probably means he was telling the truth anyway, unless the scum are running a crazy gambit involving nightkilling one of their own. Either way, I'm not that worried about it.

In any case, if the only advantage to a mass claim is that we can then trust the cop, why not just have the cop claim? What's the use in having the vig or whatever claim today?

[Shanba]

I'm still unsure of this plan.... The advantage of a massclaim on day 1 is to stop roles from being claimed later as scum could have killed anyone of them.

if we have power roles claim townie, then we essentially go into the same scenario, though I'm unsure how much more of a chance.

Still I think it's an even worse risk to take this way. I WOULD refuse to claim if all power roles did not claim.

I actually prefer the idea of certain roles claiming townie. If scum wishes to try and hunt those roles they are forced to narrow the pool of townies for town to lynch. Still, I see your point about scum possibly gaining more roles to kill.

Actually, I kinda like Yos' plan too. Except it's a little too late for that now. Oh well.

[Khelvaster]

After thinking for a whole lot more time, there are a couple traps we can set up for the scum if we claim, so I guess I am ok with it.

[Kinetic]

I'm still unsure of this plan.... The advantage of a massclaim on day 1 is to stop roles from being claimed later as scum could have killed anyone of them.

if we have power roles claim townie, then we essentially go into the same scenario, though I'm unsure how much more of a chance.

Still I think it's an even worse risk to take this way. I WOULD refuse to claim if all power roles did not claim.

Barring anything else, are you saying if the doctor claims townie you will refuse to claim?

[Yosarian2]

Actually, I kinda like Yos' plan too. Except it's a little too late for that now. Oh well.

Meh. Kinetic basically claimed under pressure, which is what I said the gov should do, albiet he do so prematurly. So the only real problem is Guardian's foolish townie claim, and while that's annyoing, I don't think one guy claiming townie is enough to justify a ful mass claim.

[IH]

I say if this is the plan we agree on I may refuse to claim I believe.

This is where we come into the disadvatanges of the massclaim with partial claims.

[CoolBot]

So you're just looking for excuses to not claim now, IH? I can understand not liking a mass claim, but that's ridiculous.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Eh, we can always lynch IH if he doesn't claim. Any self-respecting protown player would claim under threat of lynch anyways. He'd just be hurting the town if he didn't claim, so we'll just lynch him if he doesn't.

[Pie_is_good]

We completely waste having all of our power roles by having them not claim today, because there is no way we can possible trust them after this.

Yes,

EXACTLY

. The No Reveal thing is going to be our Achilles' Heel if we don't already have counterclaims set up - what good is a counterclaimed cop giving NG results?

The danger of hitting the priest or doc and the fact that misvigging loses us lynches I don't like one bit.

Given that we'd be lynching claimed townies, too, we have a shot at outing the doc anyways. Rather, I say we impliment...

Pie's Masterful Plan o' Shamelessly Directing The Vig Instead of Hoping the Vig Knows How to Play a Vig Because Most People Don't!

Each day, we decide on 2 lynches, and have both people secondarily claim (townie/doc). Once we've done this, we lynch the scummier one, and have the vig kill the lesser. If we do this, and sort through the counterclaims correctly, we pretty much win.

Come to think of it, maybe the vig should claim townie under this plan...

[curiouskarmadog]

jesus, I am so done reading the pros and cons of a mass claim Day 1, I just want to see if it works or if it is a mafia ploy. Would it speed anything along if I claim out of turn?