Open 32 - Pick Your Poison Mafia (Game Over!), before 470

[Patrick]

Yeah you're misunderstanding. I was never suspicious of Rishi. I didn't like mneme's suspects or the way he backtracked on his suspicions of me when questioned.

[Setael]

I

was

suspicious of him [Rishi].

I was never suspicious of Rishi.

What am I not understanding? Is this a blatant contradiction, or am I taking crazy pills?

[Shanba]

You're talking at cross purposes. When Patrick has been referring to the person he was suspicious of, he has been meaning mneme. Whereas you have been talking the whole time about Rishi. Patrick is only talking about Rishi as regards to mneme.

[JDodge]

unvote, vote: Setael

diescumdie

[White]

I find it amusing to watch as Jdodge runs around calling people scum and never once presents a case.

[JDodge]

I find it amusing to watch as Jdodge runs around calling people scum and never once presents a case.

I'm right sometimes, too. I'm pretty sure I'm right this time, too

[Guardian]

Setael's recent posts are confusing me. She seems to be putting an honest effort into analyzing everyone.

But her metagaming of me doesn't make sense to me, afaik we've only been in one game together.

I honestly am conflicted on her right now. I am happy with my xyzzy vote.



Jdodge, I'm sure you've been right before. I'm also sure you've been scum before. Your not giving reasons for who you think is scum --> us not being able to get a read on you --> scummy.

[JDodge]

Jdodge, I'm sure you've been right before. I'm also sure you've been scum before. Your not giving reasons for who you think is scum --> us not being able to get a read on you --> scummy.

Do you remember the last time you thought my not giving reasons was an indicator of me being scum?

[White]

I'm right sometimes, too. I'm pretty sure I'm right this time, too

Uh, I highly doubt you'd pursue a lynch if you didn't think you were right. You could make this statement every time someone says what I said.

[Guardian]

Jdodge, I'm sure you've been right before. I'm also sure you've been scum before. Your not giving reasons for who you think is scum --> us not being able to get a read on you --> scummy.

Do you remember the last time you thought my not giving reasons was an indicator of me being scum?

I think your behavior is a scummy meta decision.

Your refusal to explain your reasons has meta-only motives, and doesn't help the town out -- so just as you are unwilling to explain, I am unwilling to let you get by not explaining in any game.

If there is someone who is much more likely to be scum than average (Setael, xyzzy), I am happy lynching them instead of you, but your unwillingness to help us get inside your head is anti-town, and scummy.

[Patrick]

Guardian strikes me as townish in his latest few posts.

Setael, do you understand now what I've been saying? It seems like you misread a post somewhere down the line. Also you haven't answered the first question I asked you.

Also, if you think I'm being wishy washy, you presumably think I'm trying to keep my options open. Do you think JDodge also kept his options open on day 2 by, you know, not really expressing an opinion on anyone until the mneme hammer?

[Guardian]

Guardian strikes me as townish in his latest few posts.

Why?

[Patrick]

Shrug. Just a hunch. You seem to be genuinely trying to discern Setael's alignment.

[Rishi]

Still waiting on xyzzy / xyzzy's replacement.

I do not like the way Setael has been acting lately. She has been stirring the pot, but I'm not sure what she's trying to accomplish.

Besides, I'm waiting to hear what she thinks of me before I say what I think of her. (That's a semi-joke.)

[White]

I like stirring the pot, it's making me feel better about Seta, not afraid to make waves which is protown in my book.

[Setael]

@Patrick: Ok I see. I misunderstood a pronoun and thought you were referring to Rishi in a post where you were referring to mneme.

Also, I believe the question you’re referring to is regarding where you were wishy washy on Jack.

Patrick, any reason you made that post but then backed off on Ms. Piggy/Jack today?

Decent question, mainly I haven't really a got a scumvibe from Jack and his play seems reasonably like how I've seen him play as town in previous games. The point is still there of course, but I don't really have any other complaints.

This post is what I was calling wishy washy. Your first post/case on Ms. Piggy/Jack was solid so I was surprised you backed off so completely and gave this wishy washy response.

And the moment you've all been waiting for... my analysis of the last 2 players.

xyzzy

– Very little content. Lurkeriest lurker. I can see where if someone is suspicious of xyzzy they will likely be suspicious of JDodge since the only thing to have against either of them is that they’re lurking. In fact, with JDodge lurking AND throwing around votes with no reason, I would think if you're going to focus on lynching a lurker, it'd be JDodge rather than xyzzy.

The fact that xyzzy is lurking is not a good enough reason to lynch him and I think we should wait for a replacement for xyzzy rather than stringing him up.

In the meantime, could everyone voting xyzzy, or who thinks xyzzy is scum please give your reasons why? A reread of him does absolutely no good. If the only reason you find him suspicious is his lurkishness, please say so, and if you have other reasons, please share them with the class.

Rishi

– The reread of Rishi was obviously more interesting and content-filled than xyzzy's. The first thing I found noteworthy was his SSF vote.

You know... it says in the game rules that we might get deadlined, but there has been no threat of it and it's not looming. You are seriously looking for a quicklynch, which really hurts the town. We're not going to get deadlined if you say something useful and contribute to the discussion. But, instead, you think you can just toss your votes around until everyone randomly votes for the same person. What is your hurry?

Unvote
Vote: somestrangeflea

So... SSF's voting pattern was the main reason he voted him. It doesn't really seem like a reason for a 6th vote so it's not surprising when he says shortly after that he didn't realize SSF was already at 5 votes. He then says:

Still, I don't know if it's necessary to unvote, as I still think he's suspicious and he's still two votes away from lynch.

Kind of feels like he's implying having more suspicions than those he gave. The mere fact that he's vote hopping doesn't warrant putting him to -2 but saying "I still think he's suspicious" hints that there are a lot of bigger reasons, and so he will leave his vote.

The other thing that makes this stand out is that when he notices that Pigg is doing the same thing, his reaction is completely different:

I'm a little disturbed by Ms Piggy's voting patterns. So far she(?) has voted for: somestrangeflea, Shanba, somestrangeflea, Shanba, xyzzy, somestrangeflea, xyzzy and now schismatized. That's 8 votes in just 16 posts. And there is never a concrete reason for any of them. Very strange.

It warranted a vote putting SSF at -2, but merely a “very strange” for Pigg. Bit of a double standard.

Moving on, during the reread I found it odd how blatantly he dropped his arguments about Patrick's twilight post.

Fair enough. I think dylan is more suspicious than you are anyway, so I'm waiting to hear from him.

Feels like he is merely avoiding negative attention and trying to stay out of the spotlight. He does the exact same thing later with Guardian.

I remember reading somewhere (and I doubt I can track it down at this point), either on the wiki or on one of the message boards that the first person to congratulate the doctor either is the doctor or is scum. So Guardian's post did raise my eyebrows. Guardian is also slightly less talkative in this game than in others. When he's town, he keeps insisting he is town. In this game, he's not really doing that. I don't think it's scummy enough for a vote, but, as I said, it raised my eyebrows.

He backs off as soon as guardian responds, even though Guardian only addresses the metagaming.

My playstyle in this game is intentionally different from my typical style. This is to both avoid people being able to metagame me, and to see if this is more effective. Your read "Guardian town didn't play like this" is accurate -- but unless you can demonstrate that "Guardian scum does play like this" your argument is a null tell.

Actually, this is the response that I was hoping that you would give. You've dropped off my radar for now.

This next post I think should be listed in the wiki under “What scum is likely to say when accused of lurking.”

I know I haven't given much content, but there really isn't too much to say. The first day's lynch happened with relatively thin evidence and Day 2 hasn't been a huge improvement over Day 1. I will participate more once the game starts to get going, but I don't really see a reason to say much just yet. You can accuse me of lurking, but I generally answer anything that's directed at me. If I missed a question or a comment about me, let me know.

Anyway, I don't have any major suspicions at this point. I figure someone will slip up sooner or later.

I also noticed that he stated a few times that he wanted to hear from Dylan, and then when I replaced he didn’t comment about anything I said, and instead wrote:

Also, to all of the people who were waiting for dylan's replacement, I think you can speak up now. I had completely forgotten that some of these people were in the game.

Also, and this is big, looking back I can definitely see distancing between rishi and mneme. Rishi posted just enough suspicion of mneme to distance, without ever really pushing or pursuing anything he brought up about mneme.

Shanba's defensive and lurking play doesn't make me like him much better in this game.

This statement seems a little odd to me. There are other people who are lurking more rampantly than Shanba. In fact, Shanba posts more than you do in this game.

The people I think we need to hear more from: xyzzy, Jack and JDodge. I don't necessarily expect JDodge to post more, but the other two, I think, are usually more talkative than this.

Points out something scummy about mneme, but then doesn't pursue it at all. Instead, redirects attention to xyzzy, Jack and JDodge.

Next scumtell. Rishi's sudden jump onto the xyzzy wagon after never suspecting him all game.

I never voted for xyzzy and never really suspected him. So, no explanation necessary.

His next post about xyzzy:

Right now xyzzy is my #1 candidate for scum, but I don't feel right pushing for his lynch without him saying something. But maybe that's his strategy.

He hasn’t given any reason for changing his mind. Has said he wants to hear from xyzzy, but never said once that he thought he was scummy or suspicious until he is the popular vote and all of a sudden xyzzy is his #1 candidate.

I've said it a few times today, but xyzzy worries and frustrates me. I think he knows that we're talking about him. What incentive would a pro-town player have to lurk so heavily?

Maybe a little pressure will draw him out. I'm surprised that he only has the one vote on him right now. Vote: xyzzy

First of all, you haven't said it a few times. The only thing you have said before this is that you don't suspect him, and then that you'd like to hear more from him. So is it a pressure vote or do you really think he’s scum? Because what it really looks like is bussing.

It looks like the grand prize winner is Rishi.

Unvote, vote: Rishi

[Shanba]

Good. I like the way Setael has responded under pressure - I'm less sure of him as scum now than I was before his analyses. I have done similar things as town under threat of lynching - getting all your thoughts down can only help the town.

Unvote

. I quite like your case against Rishi, who was not on my radar at all, and would like to hear his response.

[Rishi]

The difference between SSF and Ms Piggy in my eyes was that it looked like SSF was looking for a quicklynch while Ms Piggy was just hopping around for no reason. At that point, I didn't see the need to move my vote (I'm guessing, I didn't go back to the post). I think Ms Piggy just wasn't a very good player, which is the insight I gained during the one-month hiatus in this game.

I thought Patrick explained himself well, which is why I dropped the argument. He's definitely been acting more pro-town lately.

The vote on xyzzy is a pressure vote. The reason he was my number one candidate for scum was that no one else really fit the scum pattern at that point. Besides, there was evidence that xyzzy was reading the game and not posting. The lurking looked intentional.

Until we get a replacement for xyzzy or a post from him, the vote stands.

[Shanba]

As a side note, please prod xyzzy, who seems to be back and may need reminding he is in the game.

[Guardian]

I found xyzzy's posts scummy in and of themselves, and his intentional lurking only added to that.

Rishi, why say

Until we get a replacement for xyzzy or a post from him, the vote stands.

?

If you think his role is scum, wouldn't you keep voting him even if a replacement shows up?

[Rishi]

I found xyzzy's posts scummy in and of themselves, and his intentional lurking only added to that.

Rishi, why say

Until we get a replacement for xyzzy or a post from him, the vote stands.

?

If you think his role is scum, wouldn't you keep voting him even if a replacement shows up?

Well, I probably would continue to vote him when replaced, but the point that I was emphasizing is that I will definitely not unvote or switch my vote at any point before that.

After the replacement shows up (or xyzzy himself), it would depend on what they say.

[Thesp]

Day 3 Official Vote Count

xyzzy

- 2 (Guardian, Rishi)

Setael

- 2 (Patrick, JDodge)

JDodge

- 1 (Thin_Man)

Rishi

- 1 (Setael)

Not Voting

- 3 (xyzzy, White, Shanba)

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch.

As a side note, please prod xyzzy, who seems to be back and may need reminding he is in the game.

I've prodded him a number of times, and he has refused to respond to any of them. I am continuing to search for a replacement.

[Setael]

The difference between SSF and Ms Piggy in my eyes was that it looked like SSF was looking for a quicklynch while Ms Piggy was just hopping around for no reason.

Can you point out what SSF did that made it look like he was looking for a quicklynch? I don't see that big of a difference between SSF's vote and Ms Piggy's vote hopping.... definitely not a big enough difference for one to warrant a -2 vote and the other a mere "very strange" comment.

The vote on xyzzy is a pressure vote. The reason he was my number one candidate for scum was that no one else really fit the scum pattern at that point. Besides, there was evidence that xyzzy was reading the game and not posting. The lurking looked intentional.

By pressure vote, do you mean you don't really think he's scum and are just pressuring him to get him to post? That has always been my understanding as to what a "pressure vote" is, so what you're saying doesn't make sense. Either you're voting because you think he's scum, or it's a pressure vote.

Also, what do you mean by no one else fit the scum pattern? What is this "scum pattern" and how does xyzzy fit it better than all the other players? If it's just for lurking, why pick him over JDodge?

If you think his role is scum, wouldn't you keep voting him even if a replacement shows up?

Well, I probably would continue to vote him when replaced, but the point that I was emphasizing is that I will definitely not unvote or switch my vote at any point before that.

Backpedaling. You need to decide whether you think he's not suspicious and your vote is just a pressure vote, or if you think he's scum in which case you'd leave your vote on the role. It's confusing when you try to have it both ways.

[Rishi]

Look at the individual posts by SSF and Ms Piggy. There is a world of difference. SSF kept trying to push for the game to move towards a lynch while Ms Piggy was simply capricious.

I do want it both ways. It's a pressure vote on someone who I think is likely scum. Anyone besides Setael confused?

I pick xyzzy over JDodge because I don't think JDodge is scum. QED.

[Setael]

I pick xyzzy over JDodge because I don't think JDodge is scum. QED.

I don't know what QED is supposed to stand for, but unless it's supposed to indicate a joke of some kind, you're still not answering my question, which is: If your only reason for thinking xyzzy is scummy is the fact that he's lurking, why would you choose him over JDodge? Do you think JDodge is NOT lurking?