Mini 1093: Fates Mafia (Over)

[Exe]

If I had played well,

you all probably wouldn't have found me scummy, but

Chrono would've been lynched anyways.

Fixed because apparently you didn't get the message.

[smargaret]

Wow. That's all I have to say. Good job, Fates.

[Chronopie]

One thing. Had Reck investigated Exe, assuming Town bought the lover claim, he would have been blinded/vanilised anyway...

[Herodotus]

The town played well, but even if they hadn't, it would have been hard to lose.

Is this AFTER D1, or overall?

Overall.

3 masons with an investigation, a kill, and a protection
v.s.
a 2 player mafia with a minor power
v.s.
a 2 player mafia with a decent power but without a NK. And they're lovers.

The fates would never be lynched, and as 3-masons, would probably never have to claim. Even if they are vanillaized, they're still masons. And a bigger group than either scumteam.

[gandalf5166]

BTW, there is one problem with the vanillarizing lovers. How the hell could they explain the Fates becoming vanillarized?

[EtherealCookie]

That was rather interesting. Good job, town.

[Katsuki]

The town played well, but even if they hadn't, it would have been hard to lose.

Is this AFTER D1, or overall?

Overall.

3 masons with an investigation, a kill, and a protection
v.s.
a 2 player mafia with a minor power
v.s.
a 2 player mafia with a decent power but without a NK. And they're lovers.

The fates would never be lynched, and as 3-masons, would probably never have to claim. Even if they are vanillaized, they're still masons. And a bigger group than either scumteam.

Agree, that's why I thought there'd be another scum. 2-man scum-team vs 3-man mason group, despite no communiation, seemed rather unlikely to me. When I first saw the 3-man mason group in the opening thread, I thought that the mafia would be more powerful than they were.

Granted, I felt dram somewhat balanced this out by making the presence of the mason group public. If any masons were wagoned to lynch D1, things would've gone badly for town.

[xRECKONERx]

Except I happened to bond with Parama D1, and he got targeted for a NK.
That doesn't mean it's unbalanced, it means town played their roles to perfection.

The bitching can stop now.

[TheLonging]

I'm not bitching.

I'm just wondering how you caught me

[Exe]

Why can we not discuss the setup without being told to stop bitching? You won, we get it, that's awesome. Well done.
Now we are still allowed to discuss the setup. I think that it's worth considering that despite the fact that town played well, the setup is still swingy. My scumteam basically was screwed if any 1 of the 2 people wasn't a strong player. The scum-teams being both smaller than the mason group are also a bit questionable. These are things to consider, not bitching, and just because you are excited that you won doesn't mean that everyone has to just call you the best player ever and leave it at that.

[Chronopie]

Also, I called that Reck would have an Epic role.

And the first Fate that targeted either one of us would have resulted in our lynch in the next five minutes :/

[Parama]

rabble rabble

[CooLDoG]

On the records page we rank 3rd shortest. Even though I lost, I'm glad I'm on the records page...

The lover 3rd party is kinda weird... though

[Herodotus]

Granted, I felt dram somewhat balanced this out by making the presence of the mason group public. If any masons were wagoned to lynch D1, things would've gone badly for town.

I think the presence of the masons being public should benefit the town. If one needs to claim, the claim alone should confirm them. (If scum fakeclaim, any 1 mason can CC (probably the doctor is generally most expendable if you ignore the players and only consider the powers.)) At that point, since they're outed, they may as well direct the lynch, and maybe even coordinate the other fates' next night actions. But you aren't likely to be wagoned to claim when 2 townies know you're town.

None of this has been intended as criticism of dramonic. If the players enjoyed the game, it was a success.

[Chronopie]

Actually, in Hindsight, the setup was Flawed.

The Fates knew, before they submitted their actions, just who was the Scum Kill, Given the Thread mechanic. (well it could have been the Fatecop investigation, but w/e)

Roles: VT's, Fates, Goddesses. Therefore, the only ones actioning before the Fates are... The scum. Therefore The Doc has a

high

chance of successfully protecting the NK target. (understatement). Also, anyone targeted before the Fates get to action is immediately cleared of being scum.

[Gammagooey]

So D1 of this with all the ninjas and everything was ABSOLUTELY HILARIOUS.

The scum lovers were pretty unbalanced even if they hadn't played terrible though, if town lynched regular scum d1 and d2 even if the maf killed a Fate the lovers would be screwed by process of elimination and not having a kill.

[smargaret]

Chronopie - only true after you and Exe had died. Otherwise, the fatecop could have investigated one of you.

I agree that adding town power roles would have improved the balance, though.

[Hiraki]

Just like to add in that I find it quite ironic that Parama told me not to write any walls, and I barely wrote anything(Actually, I don't think I have a single In-Game Post, to be quite honest)

I found reading the thread enjoyable though!

[Shadow Dancer]

Actually, in Hindsight, the setup was Flawed.

The Fates knew, before they submitted their actions, just who was the Scum Kill, Given the Thread mechanic. (well it could have been the Fatecop investigation, but w/e)

Roles: VT's, Fates, Goddesses. Therefore, the only ones actioning before the Fates are... The scum. Therefore The Doc has a

high

chance of successfully protecting the NK target. (understatement). Also, anyone targeted before the Fates get to action is immediately cleared of being scum.

You don't get it right. I knew

all

the night actions beforehand. Dram told me that Parama's TL's and CD's Threads were vibrating, was rather trivial to figure out what was what, though.
Lovers should have had a kill though, I guess.
About lovers being fucked with a bad partner - that's just the nature of the lovers roles and not setup specific, lovers make setups swingy unless they are scum+town lover constellation, which 3rd party lovers are pretty close to anyway.
Vanillaizers should maybe have been town though, but unknown to them like millers, so they could not just have claimed it D1.
Or make vanillaize active team ability instead of a kill, inconclusive results due to action immunity still could be a giveaway, though.
So I guess the lover weer underpowered, but

not

because the lover part.
So maybe 3 scum + 1 serial killer with active vanillaize might have also worked.
Anyway it's clear that this setup cannot be played again in its current form (making it open), so I don't really want to do any in depth analysis on the matter.

[dramonic]

The Fates knew, before they submitted their actions, just who was the Scum Kill, Given the Thread mechanic. (well it could have been the Fatecop investigation, but w/e)

Roles: VT's, Fates, Goddesses. Therefore, the only ones actioning before the Fates are... The scum. Therefore The Doc has a

high

chance of successfully protecting the NK target. (understatement). Also, anyone targeted before the Fates get to action is immediately cleared of being scum.

I should clarify some more.
As said in the rules, the Fates don't have a QT for one thing.

Also, they had a specific preset actionning order (that's in the rules too)

The cop actionned first, then the vig, then the doc.

Case A: A fate is targetted for a kill.
The doc cant protect a fellow Fate, so she'll just die. Also, low chance to block the vig kill

Case B: No fate is targetted for the kill.
The doc has to choose who of 4 players is the scum target. If he mischooses, he might block the vig. THere's also a chance he vanillaize himself.

Also, the Fate could theorically claim and direct the town, but then they'd get picked off one by one. The odds of no-kill/lynch/vanillaization happening on the Fate is fairly slim.

[dramonic]

The scum lovers were pretty unbalanced even if they hadn't played terrible though, if town lynched regular scum d1 and d2 even if the maf killed a Fate the lovers would be screwed by process of elimination and not having a kill.

2 Fates, 3 Townies, 2 Lovers

I don't see the screwed by PoE =S

[dramonic]

Also, the vanillaizing wasn't to HELP the lovers, it was to somewhat WEAKEN then

investigation-immune BP SK is the most horribly broken thing ever, even if they dont have a kill, just an opinion.


EDIT: actually I see the screwed by PoE suddenly XD

[dramonic]

At that point, since they're outed, they may as well direct the lynch, and maybe even coordinate the other fates' next night actions. But you aren't likely to be wagoned to claim when 2 townies know you're town.

Well, that can backfire quite bad, since when you see three players who are never voting one another and know there are three QTless masons in the game you can connect the dots as scum.

Frankly, I think if the day had lasted more than 1,5h the scum could've probably shot down Fates each night.

[dramonic]

Overall, the point was experimenting with all the town PRs being impossible to protect, though I guess giving them cross-confirmation was too big a boost.

Fun fact: In the original setup, there was only one scum team of three players. The third was Persephone, action-immune GF and lover to the town role Hera, AIT lover. She could not perform the mafia kill and would win as an absolute usurper lover after everyone but Hera was offed.
After consideration I noticed 90% or so of my non-open run games had absolute usurpers and scrapped that idea since I wanted to go for something new and avoid mod-metaing.

[Chronopie]

Here's another piece of mod meta for ya:

Every

Purely

Dram Game that Chrono has been in, he's been scum.