Scummies Invitational 2012 (Game Over)

[Matias]

Fate had no chance in winning this game. I guess that's my only gripe with the setup.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

I feel no remorse, for I was given the dreaded Bodysnatcher role in Zoraster's Strategy Mafia. You wanna talk about unwinnable roles? LOL

[zoraster]

fate had a very challenging game to play, certainly. I don't think it was "balanced" in the sense that SK had a 33% chance of winning. More like I think he had a chance proportional to his factions presence in the game (i.e. around 5%)

The bodysnatcher role was indeed harder, but it was, forgive me, a pretty cool role.

[xRECKONERx]

Not going to feel bad about the lack of reveal on compulsive. If you were concerned about it, you could have played it as compulsive. You decided to take a risk by not shooting, which was understandable. But that was a calculated risk on your behalf.

Scum, btw had a gunsmith guilty on Fate.

The issue is that people are under the assumption SKs ARE compulsive. Setups are usually balanced with a SK to assume the SK is killing every night... so if the SK takes a calculated risk by no killing, which in and of itself lowers their chances of winning, they shouldn't be further punished by having everyone think "Oh there's not two kills so the SK must be roleblocked"

just my .02

[Lady Lambdadelta]

fate had a very challenging game to play, certainly. I don't think it was "balanced" in the sense that SK had a 33% chance of winning. More like I think he had a chance proportional to his factions presence in the game (i.e. around 5%)

The bodysnatcher role was indeed harder, but it was, forgive me, a pretty cool role.

never said I didn't enjoy it, just saying it was impossible.

[Tierce]

Not going to feel bad about the lack of reveal on compulsive. If you were concerned about it, you could have played it as compulsive. You decided to take a risk by not shooting, which was understandable. But that was a calculated risk on your behalf.

Scum, btw had a gunsmith guilty on Fate.

The issue is that people are under the assumption SKs ARE compulsive. Setups are usually balanced with a SK to assume the SK is killing every night... so if the SK takes a calculated risk by no killing, which in and of itself lowers their chances of winning, they shouldn't be further punished by having everyone think "Oh there's not two kills so the SK must be roleblocked"

just my .02

Speak for yourself. Having been a non-killing SK myself, I do not assume they must be compulsive. Yes, I did think Fate had been roleblocked. No, the no-kills did not particularly surprise me. No-killing is, as you said, a calculated risk, and in this case a faction with a guilty on him was able to put it to use through a gambit because Fate did not read a flip correctly. It's not supposed to be easy, he wasn't "further punished", he was hit with a guilty gambit he could have planned for.

[xRECKONERx]

Yes, Tierce. Usually when I say "just my .02", I am, in fact, speaking for

myself

. I just think if SK is going to be announced as a faction in the game, we should know whether or not they're being forced to kill. It has the potential for way too much misinformation to enter the game if everyone is expecting SK kills and they're not happening.

In any case, this game was pretty awful and exactly proves my theory that if you just take a bunch of "good" players a throw them together in a game, it's a catastrophe. There are too many strong personalities in one place and not enough "mediocre" or "bad" players to fill those much needed gaps in the playerlist. The scum team played as well as they needed here and pulled off a pretty convincing win, there's no doubt... but looking back at all of the lynches I was here for (Johhog, Zdenek/GNR, Fate, SD, Feirei) I don't think I would've done anything different. Every last one of them played in a way that dug their own grave and they deserved lynches. The funny thing is... had we left Fate-SK alive, I'm pretty confident this would've been a town victory, because I'm almost positive Fate would've offed LLD & singer.

[BBmolla]

I think the mod should tell the town who mafia are too

[zoraster]

I don't want to badmouth my player list or anything, but there's kind of a difference between Scummies Winners and Mafia All-Stars.

For what it's worth, I think having lots of strong mafia players is good, but having a lot of strong mafia players who are strong in the same way is bad.

[BBmolla]

Too many carries, not enough support, no farm, gg

[xRECKONERx]

I don't want to badmouth my player list or anything, but there's kind of a difference between Scummies Winners and Mafia All-Stars.

For what it's worth, I think having lots of strong mafia players is good, but having a lot of strong mafia players who are strong in the same way is bad.

I did put "good" in quotation marks. I don't think I'm a great player, but I think I'm "prolific" and therefore add a strong personality to the game.

Then you add in Fate's personality, which of course is going to directly contrast Tierce's stalwart/stubborn personality, none of which is going to play nice with Johhog's abrasiveness or Feirei's VI style of play, and it can just get out of control really quickly.

[Eddard Stark]

The issue is that people are under the assumption SKs ARE compulsive. Setups are usually balanced with a SK to assume the SK is killing every night... so if the SK takes a calculated risk by no killing, which in and of itself lowers their chances of winning, they shouldn't be further punished by having everyone think "Oh there's not two kills so the SK must be roleblocked"

I don't think very many people are under the assumption SK's are compulsive? (Since they're generally not?). It is true that people assume Sk's

will

shoot though, so I think that alone was enough to get him lynched given the rb'er claim.

I was mostly interested in joining to see what my scummie gave me, it was interesting to read along with though.

[Benmage]

I don't want to badmouth my player list or anything, but there's kind of a difference between Scummies Winners and Mafia All-Stars.

For what it's worth, I think having lots of strong mafia players is good, but having a lot of strong mafia players who are strong in the same way is bad.

Lol, so true.

And I've always assumed SK's, like scum can choose if they wish to kill or not.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Yes, Tierce. Usually when I say "just my .02", I am, in fact, speaking for

myself

. I just think if SK is going to be announced as a faction in the game, we should know whether or not they're being forced to kill. It has the potential for way too much misinformation to enter the game if everyone is expecting SK kills and they're not happening.

In any case, this game was pretty awful and exactly proves my theory that if you just take a bunch of "good" players a throw them together in a game, it's a catastrophe. There are too many strong personalities in one place and not enough "mediocre" or "bad" players to fill those much needed gaps in the playerlist. The scum team played as well as they needed here and pulled off a pretty convincing win, there's no doubt... but looking back at all of the lynches I was here for (Johhog, Zdenek/GNR, Fate, SD, Feirei) I don't think I would've done anything different. Every last one of them played in a way that dug their own grave and they deserved lynches. The funny thing is... had we left Fate-SK alive, I'm pretty confident this would've been a town victory, because I'm almost positive Fate would've offed LLD & singer.

Right, and do you remember when SD was the planned lynch over Fate, and everyone was going that way, and I said 1 line and flipped the script?\

I knew Fate would shoot me in the face eventually, probably even that night. We got him lynched first for exactly that reason.

[Oversoul]

Very humble of you.

---

I never thought the SK was compulsive. I thought if Fate was the SK, he would shoot

something

.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

So what you're telling me is that you're allowed to slag my play and be a sore loser (like you always are), but I'm not allowed to be proud of my accomplishments in the face of people telling me otherwise?

Why are you still here again, Mr. I'm not a part of this community?

[Benmage]

Too many carries, not enough support, no farm, gg

Also, I really don't think the issue for town was too many All-Stars.

This town was no stronger than many popular modded games, like Faradays.

[Oversoul]

So what you're telling me is that you're allowed to slag my play and be a sore loser (like you always are), but I'm not allowed to be proud of my accomplishments in the face of people telling me otherwise?

Why are you still here again, Mr. I'm not a part of this community?

That was my fault. It was meant to be in reply to Reck's comment about the lynches and the game state. I thought I Q+ the post but I missed it. That's why I was commenting on the SK in the same post. I am sorry you feel that way and I am sorry if I gave you that impression.

[Tierce]

Yes, Tierce. Usually when I say "just my .02", I am, in fact, speaking for

myself

.

That's fine, but you also included this:

The issue is that people are under the assumption SKs ARE compulsive.

which is a generalization. I was correcting your generalized assumption--mine was that Fate, in particular, would be likely to shoot, but I know some people don't, and I knew not to expect (at least a public) Compulsive (reveal) from zoraster. We already knew a lot about the Serial Killer role and learned more from flips, so I don't see how we should expect to know

all

the details from that role when we don't know all the details from other factions either. It only hurt Fate because he chose not to play with every tool he had accessible, namely reading the BBmolla flip with attention.

By the by, I don't think you should force Serial Killers to be Compulsive, zor. No killing is a legitimate choice, and if the Serial Killer knows they have a protected Tracker on them, why should they be forced to take a game-losing action?

I've been toying with the idea of making a Serial Killer that has to kill at least every other Night; essentially, the reverse of the Non-Consecutive effect.

[Fate]

Not going to feel bad about the lack of reveal on compulsive. If you were concerned about it, you could have played it as compulsive. You decided to take a risk by not shooting, which was understandable. But that was a calculated risk on your behalf.

Scum, btw had a gunsmith guilty on Fate.

there's something fucked up with your head when you see not shooting as the "risky" play in a completely unknown set-up

[Fate]

and yes skimming was my downfall and usually is, I'll accept that blame.

[Matias]

By the way, zor, do you have a list of night actions?

If not, Reck, did you track me the night you died? I felt I had burning eyes on me after that day.

[zoraster]

I do. It's on the Night Actions tab of this spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... sp=sharing

The "checks" are just when I've rechecked to make sure there weren't any errors.

You can also see what randomly generated number you had on the fourth tab!

[singersigner]

At least I wasn't even close to rolling town. >_>

As paniced as I was throughout the whole game, I actually did enjoy challenging myself. I feel like I was able to keep up my activity in this game better than previous ones, save a couple of V/LAs, and it really helped that I had a really solid scum team to talk things over with and keep my spirits/motivation up. We all played our parts very well, and I'm really proud of Matias and LLD for powering through til the end, and SD/kanye for taking one for the team.

I can see why this game would be so draining for those of us at the end, especially since zoraster designed it to not

actually

take as long. So kudos for everyone who stuck it out and didn't just give up, and to those who had to wait a long-ass time for it to finally end.

This game kind of emphasized Reck and I think someone else made this point, too--the whole "too many cooks in the kitchen" concept of a whole bunch of awesome power players, but I think we had as good of a balance as we could've had with players like me, kdowns, bbmolla, etc who are fine being more passive and accepting that we're not very convincing, lol.

Thanks again, zoraster, for modding such an interesting game. I hope to be a part of another in the future.