Newbie 917 - Game over.

[Zorblag]

Vote count 2.6

The numbers by the voters indicate the order in which the vote was cast. If two or more players are tied for the most votes to lynch at the deadline the tiebreaker will be the player who has the earliest active vote.

Andrius: 3: Exilon (4), Civil Scum (16), Antifinity (19)
Antifinity: 1: Mustilicor (15)
Super Awersome Mega Pimp!: 1: Andrius (17)
Civil Scum: 1: Super Awesome Mega Pimp! (18)

Not voting: The Quintastic One

With 7 players alive it takes 4 to lynch. Currently Andrius would be lynched at deadline. Deadline is 10:00 PM EDT/7:00 PM PDT on Sunday, March 21st. Deadline Countdown

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Antifinity]

FoS Quintastic

if he turns up scum,

FoS Antifinity

if he turns up town.

If your count is correct, I do believe that makes me a hammer. Does anyone have any objections or last questions for him before I do this?

I'm good. Out of curiosity, does anyone have any theories for who will be lynched tonight?

Obviously it won't be me, unless Andrius turns up scum, and even then, I'm still the best or second best target.

It probably won't be Mustilicor because if there is a doctor, that is the logical place for the protection to rest.

I think Quintastic won't get lynched because he is scum, but if he isn't, then they probably won't kill him, because he'll be lynch target #1 tomorrow if Andrius comes up scum.

I think that if either SAMP! or Civil Scum are Mafia, then the other won't get killed, because that would be pretty suspicious. It seems to me that they are a bit antagonistic, and that would bring attention on to what has otherwise been an excellent stealth game.

For everyone else... probably fair game.

[Andrius]

Mustilicor, even if I were scum, I wouldn’t know that there’s a doc. Its still 50:50.
And If I /my scumbuddy were Roleblocker, its still 50:50.
So yeah. Just because I think there’s a doctor, at 50:50 odds, doesn’t mean I’m scum. The only way to know that would be if I were the doctor, which I’m not.
:/ Though you all are probably looking for a good lynch, so I understand.

[Mustilicor]

What? No. I'm not talking about the fact that you think there is a doctor.

The thing is, though, whether we have a doctor doesn't change the probability of a cop...

Only with an assumption of a goon/goon setup could a doctor claim make a cop unlikely.
Your declaring of 50/50 odds as unlikely makes no sense.

The overlap of these two factors suggests a slip.

If nothing else, it indicates the attempt to appear to investigate without actually paying attention to the odds you're supposedly rolling around in your head.

[Exilon]

I have no objections, but I do want to end up my discussion with Civil Scum as he brought up some good points regarding my playstyle, which I'd like to learn with.
I actually had the post ready yesterday but internet connection went down and I lost it.
I'll get back to you all soon.

[Exilon]

...but you're not really committing to a lynch or pushing for who you believe to be scummy.

I'm pretty sure that I've said I want to lynch Antifinity or Andrius. A couple times. I thought I'd made that quite clear.

I've also voted for both of them. If by comitting you mean going all out... I really don't know what you're talking about. Although I agree with this statement more as it relates to Mustilicor and Exilon<---especially.

Yeah, because I wasn’t the one who posted half a page of reasoning / theory to vote Andrius without any kind of reasoned counter-argument. You were. (/sarcasm)
On that note:

You haven't been wandering around going, 'Oh gee, who do I vote for, I'm so confused, I'm so lost...etc' But your posts are wandering. Sure you stick with a suspect (the one person you vote for each day?), but you don't push your wagons at all or try to further the arguments very much, outside of throwing in shots at new targets. And also specifically in regards to your comments about not being able to be sure, but then saying you wanted to be certain, but you weren't sure enough, etc. The way you sound, maybe lost/confused were the wrong words, but it's like YOU don't know who YOU want to go after. Or maybe you just aren't vocal/votical about it...
(…)
Also a matter worth repeating I think, I find it very "odd" that you make these comments about how people could be scum, or seem scummy, and then 3 posts later you've dropped discussing them and it looks like you've forgot about them.

Excuse me? Furthering my arguments? There hasn’t been a need to further any of my arguments as they are mostly uncountered… and whenever there was indeed a counter or a question on them I’d promptly state all of my thoughts and reasoning. I don’t feel the need to make other people vote or convince them to vote as I did – they will do if their own reasoning goes that way and if they agree with me.
Apart from that, not knowing who to go after… well, that’s probably true. Because I see many possibilities in the way people act, it becomes hard to me to focus on a single target repeatedly. I usually point out what I found wrong, or what I have been looking out for, and see if there’s anything to be said about it. Usually no one adds much to it so it kinda seems to be laid off in a corner. I assure you, though, that I didn’t forget about them.

Oh, boy, this is going to be hard to explain. “Odd”, “strange” and “peculiar” are different from suspicious; but COULD be grounds for suspicion. Conversely, Suspicion implies, most of the time, that we found something “odd” about the way someone acted, assuming of course that person is town. In some cases, there’s stuff that aren’t odd but make sense if seen by a scummy point of view.

Alright, so the words are completely ambiguous in terms of amount of "suspicion" tied to each one. So we just need to ask, and you will go back and tell us what they meant in each case? That's convenient. It wouldn't bother so much if I could get a good idea of where you stand on different players at different times from your posts and behavior, but it's "odd" how difficult that seems to be when reading you.

Two words: Subjective Contextualization.
You cannot expect words to be completely clear and non-ambiguous. Specially not “odd”, and “strange”, when it comes to suspicion amounts. But for clarification purposes, I do try to be as clear as possible; one should deprehend that I mean all I write and nothing else. As in, if I say something is “odd”, it is just what I said: “odd”. If it’s suspicious, then it is suspicious.

Note that the original post from where this spurted was one where I (correct me if I’m wrong) used the word “suspicious” to mean that something had striked me as odd (not the other way around). In other words, I used a different definition of the word, which caused some controversy, and I apologize for it. So, from now on, I will avoid that mistake, so I can be as clear as possible. Is that ok with you?

Also, what the heck? I have already provided my reasoning for only voting two people while keeping my attention up on what’s surrounding me.

I must have missed that. What was your reasoning again? Preferably off the top of your head.

On the top of my head is this hat. In this hat there are 2 notes: one saying “reread” and the other saying the following:
“As for Antifinity, read below the next quote. As for Andrius, I provided a reasoning / argumentation which has stood untouched up to now, and he still seems the best lynch to me, which makes me maintain my vote on him. That does not mean I can’t stop paying attention to all other players; and I have been faithful to this.”

Answer me this: if I suspect everyone, should I vote for everyone or for my top suspect? Therefore, that reasoning makes no real sense.

Um, except you didn't do either.... <--- !

Was thatguy00 your number 1 suspect for being inactive? He wasn't even lurking. He just didn't play.

And after that, you didn't unvote during or after the replacement. So then, McGriddles must have been a suspect of yours. Even though you were confused internally about who looked better between Samp and MMM. ??

He was close to a lynch, and I wasn’t positive any of them would be scum. Hence “the scales are tipped”. As even MMM stated “ Are you willing to lynch me for that 10% today?” (to Mustilicor). No, I wasn’t willing to, and so I didn’t.

Again, so rather than condemn the lynch on those grounds, you left your vote on McGriddles.
"Hi McGriddles"
"Thank you McGriddles"
'Pardon me while my vote stays on you McGriddles'

My question still shatters part of the reasoning you had provided to FoS me, which was my objective. I didn’t feel confortable voting for either MMM or Samp!, and at that point no one else was really spurting attention (to me. Antifinity had a moment of spotlight, but reasoned out a theory for it). I had left my vote on thatguy00 because, for starters, he wasn’t at any danger for a lynch, and he wasn’t being active. So, what equates to voting for someone who isn’t playing? Nothing. It equates to nothing; it’s withholding a vote.

When McGridle replaced, I was planning to remove my vote once he had posted his analysis (which didn’t exactly come), but soon after it was impossible for me to do so.

And correct you I shall. I said “since the day began, I have been more keen on the following trio”, not only on each one of them individually. I also explained why each one of them was suspicious and the pros and cons of it.

The trio = THOSE THREE PEOPLE INDIVIDUALLY

I don't think you should be thinking about it any other way.

I’m sorry, but I am indeed thinking about it in another way. When I said the trio, I was referring to the possible pairings that were inside the three: Samp! / Andrius , Samp! / Quintastic , and Quintastic / Andrius. Andrius is one of the most recurring and probable links, (even outside that trio) and that is why my vote resides there.

The thing is that it seems unconceivable to me that a scum would deliberately do something day-1 as anticipation for day 2; even more something as specific as Quintastic did.

Well as someone has mentioned, it is not inconceivable. A scum carefully and thoughtfully setting up a later false-PR claim is a good strategy. And more likely imo than you seem to think.

It was specific, but also could have had other uses.

Well, I can’t argue with experience, so I’ll take that into account.

Why do you keep implying I’m “manipulating” the players?

I'm not sure what you mean exactly by my implying that you are manipulating people, but it does look to me like you give new wagons this little nudge and then watch and discuss and waffle as they pick up speed.

I mean that you sometimes state things that seem to mean I am doing “this” or “that” to make the town proceed in a certain way. I disagree with that because I’m not pointing a gun at anyone’s head. Even if I do “nudge” wagons or anything of the sort, I don’t know if it’s a bad thing – after all, the more investigation and information there is, the better.

[The Quintastic One]

Honestly I don't believe anyone's been leading this town towards any particular lynches. I've tried to get us to lynch obvscum but it just aint working.

On that note, we got ourselves an updated vote count.


Sorry to do this to you Andrius, as I believe you to be town. But this game has suffered extreme stagnation to the point where all we are discussing is Exilon Vs. Civil Scum on Exilon's posting style rather than actually scumhunting. So since I know that I am going to be the automatic lynch on Day 3 in Lylo and this town is going to lose without lynching a single scum, I might as well get the engine running on this failboat. Starting with you. Despite what other people may think I think you played a good game, and did your best to scumhunt even in the face of adversity.

Vote: Andrius

To the scum: You obviously don't want to kill me tonight. If you have a roleblocker, just roleblock me and kill whoever else in this town you wish. Town have lost this game, you win. Just sit back, relax, and let me be lynched Day 3. Good game.

[Mustilicor]

Ahhhhhh noooo okay fine.

(Just because I opted to wait until you guys were ready doesn't mean I wasn't hoping you already were. xD)


Umm. To pop my head briefly into this back and forth...

Excuse me? Furthering my arguments? There hasn’t been a need to further any of my arguments as they are mostly uncountered… and whenever there was indeed a counter or a question on them I’d promptly state all of my thoughts and reasoning. I don’t feel the need to make other people vote or convince them to vote as I did – they will do if their own reasoning goes that way and if they agree with me.

I'm going to have to offer my support here, CS. The alternative is behaving like Quintastic and repeatedly pushing a case already laid out even in lieu of new evidence. Considering Andrius is going to end up the lynch rather than Antifinity, such a tactic hardly seems very effective. Laying out your argument and waiting for people to make their own decisions about it is all you can really do.


I also asked him back on day one why he was leaving his vote on thatguy00 back on D1, and his response in iso post number [] is just as applicable to McGriddle. I don't personally feel there is a strong reasoning to favor the possibility of laying low over cautiousness that caused him to run out of time.


The rest of your argument.. :S. I'm hesitant to actively defend anyone, but considering I've got a fairly town read on Exilon, it makes some of your weirder questions regarding him a little more suspect. We're not speaking Esperanto here; words vary in meaning according to context.

And you don't think looking at player's relationships with others is valid?


Eh. I've questioned a lot of things I didn't find truly suspicious just to feel people out, so I'll allow for the possibility that's what you're doing now.

[Mustilicor]

.................or there's that.

I forgot to go find the post number and replace the [] with it, but more importantly, apparently Quintastic decided to hammer despite a direct request to wait a moment. ._.;

[Mustilicor]

Ahh, maybe I misread and Exilon just wanted to get his rebuttal in. Got it.

In other news, it looks like the post I was looking for wasn't Exilon's at all, but Andrius's! I don't see where Exilon actually mentions the alpha-vote thing. Hn. Maybe he doesn't.

[Mustilicor]

Why would you hammer someone you believe to be town?! I cannot get over how silly that is. Was just waiting for a quick nod from everyone and the day would have been done unless something big was presented. What if SAMP! miraculously had something that would turn everything around forever?? Agh agh agh *fret*

[The Quintastic One]

Any and all questions regarding how Exilon could improve upon his playstyle can be discussed in the end game. I hardly think that it's worth waiting in game for him to get some coaching tips from Civil Scum when that business is done later.

[The Quintastic One]

Why would you hammer someone you believe to be town?! I cannot get over how silly that is. Was just waiting for a quick nod from everyone and the day would have been done unless something big was presented. What if SAMP! miraculously had something that would turn everything around forever?? Agh agh agh *fret*

If SAMP has any sort of amazing evidence that will implicate scum on Day 3 then he can present it on Day 3. You all seem so confident that Andrius is scum so why are you fretting? Because you know that Andrius is town and you're trying to backpedal away from your earlier suspicions of him to look more town going into Day 3? Alas. These are all questions that will have to wait, as we shouldn't even be talking during twilight.

[Mustilicor]

No, I'm fretting because I hate surprises and because I don't understand your motivation at all. The SAMP! thing isn't much of a possibility but I like allowing for possibilities, and now the thread is going to close and I can't and.. grch.

As for talking during night, some clarification would be nice.

Does the no talking rule apply immediately after the hammer or only once the thread is closed?

[Super Awesome Mega Zord!]

8. Once a player is lynched the game enters twilight until I post a death scene;

all players including the one who was lynched may continue to post during twilight.

I was hoping to get another chance to defend Andrius (although admittedly it would just be the same defense as the one I used in 211 except worded differently) but oh well.

[Mustilicor]

Ah, thank you. When I was skimming over the rules again I was looking for the words hammer and night phase. Guess that hows me to keyword hunt.


So then: you talk about me distancing myself from the lynch, Quintastic, but apparently you hammered while thinking Andrius is town? What the hell? How can you seriously justify hammering someone you think to be town? Someone who was most likely going to be hammered in the next couple of days anyway? And while in a game in which a no-lynch isn't possible..!

I probably wouldn't have been moved by SAMP!'s defense if it was really just a repetition, but I still would have liked to have read and considered it. I would have liked an opportunity to examine my own thinking for flaws. Because I know not to trust my own mind..! I wanted to ensure there wasn't some outstanding issue I'd failed to consider! Because people overlook things sometimes even when they're trying to be thorough - the fact that I failed to find the appropriate rule when I looked for it proves as much.


Fortunately it turned out that SAMP! was just going to rehash an old argument rather than attack mine. But do you really not get why I'd be frustrated with your hammering a lynch that you don't even agree with? It's just declaring OKAY THINKING TIME IS OVER PEOPLE and finalizing a group decision before the actual members of that group are ready to do so.

[Mustilicor]

The group in question being the group of people who actually suspect Andrius.

[Exilon]

Quintastic, NOOOO!
Stagant? You're the one who just offered his resignation... And regarding my playstyle-discussion? The way one plays says a lot about their alignement and patterns, and therefore is not redundant at any point in the game.

Civil had stated he was okay with the lynch, but I would have liked to hear his say before the twilight... Oh, well.

[Andrius]

I was hoping to get another chance to defend Andrius (although admittedly it would just be the same defense as the one I used in 211 except worded differently) but oh well.

... more like another chance to try and make it look like you're town.
Can you all hurry up and hang me, officially? XD

[The Quintastic One]

To Mustilicor: Of course I understand why you're frustrated with the Andrius lynch, I just don't care. If he turns up scum (unlikely) then you can rest at ease. If he turns up as town (far more likely) then my purpose has already been stated and completed. I.E., I know I'm the auto-lynch on Day 3 no matter what happens. You yourself were going to lynch Andrius, except you were waiting on more repetitive analysis and for Civil Scum to blatantly participate in coaching of Exilon in mid game. Hence why I get mega scum vibes from you now, as you might of been trying to manipulate things so that the town IC could be coaching your scumbuddy Exilon. It makes sense since all both of you have done all game is discredit everyone elses opinions of your own and made sure that nobody could be sure of anybodies lynch at any time.

And now you gave us that little gem about how you don't even trust your OWN mind. Cute. So basically nobody has good reasons for voting, not even yourself? So very cute. And scummy.


To Exilon: I already answered your question. You can ask any and all questions regarding your playstyle after you lynch me and this game is over. Your argument with Civil Scum over your playstyle was nothing but fluff and stalling from the both of you because nobody knew how to actually stick to their vote so you decided it was time to discuss Mafia Theory instead of actual scumhunting. THAT'S what I call stagnation.

[The Quintastic One]

I was hoping to get another chance to defend Andrius (although admittedly it would just be the same defense as the one I used in 211 except worded differently) but oh well.

... more like another chance to try and make it look like you're town.
Can you all hurry up and hang me, officially? XD

That's going to depend on Zorblag. He needs to do the write up.

[Antifinity]

If you're worried about getting "auto-lynched" then wouldn't it be to your advantage to have more knowledge come out today, rather than going into tomorrow with a death sentence?

Personally, I think if Andrius turns up town I intend to at least reevaluate my view on TQO, since a lot of my suspicion has been based on mutual support going back and forth between the two without much reason to justify it.

Out of curiosity, is there any non-scum reason to want a player to stop talking? For example, could you be worried that someone will reveal a power role or something? I can't really think of a pro-town motive to end the day; even when the lynch victim is obvious, the only change in the discussion tomorrow is that two (or possibly one) voice(s) will be silenced; which doesn't seem to profit the town in any way.

[Mustilicor]

TQO: It's sort of funny that you saw me as totally until I began to criticize your arguments, you know.

Of course I don't trust my own mind. It's a human mind. They're demonstrably untrustworthy, you know. I'd recommend

Predictably Irrational

or a similar book if you need help with that concept. Our capabilities for situation analysis are imperfect, but there are ways to maximize our success. One is scrutinizing our own work mercilessly. This is not the same as not having good reasons for voting.

[Mustilicor]

totally town*

[Mustilicor]

Out of curiosity, is there any non-scum reason to want a player to stop talking? For example, could you be worried that someone will reveal a power role or something? I can't really think of a pro-town motive to end the day; even when the lynch victim is obvious, the only change in the discussion tomorrow is that two (or possibly one) voice(s) will be silenced; which doesn't seem to profit the town in any way.

Well. Non-scum, sure (as in someone could just be an ornery town-member), but certainly not pro-town I don't think. Not in a game in which no-lynches aren't possible. Which makes it noteworthy I suppose that Quintastic was under the impression twilight meant no discussion.