Mini 495 - Mafia on a Plane! GAME OVER! =)

[ryan]

Love you too Vollkan Go town (I guess)

[AlyG]

Hello everybody! First thoughts: Stupid, stupid Ryan and yuck! an SK.

Time for the reread post (written as I read through):

Page 1:

Originality gets an

FoS

for his weird lynching thing, though maybe Elias is a bit strong, thinking it is L-3 on the first page.

Page 2:

Similar possible opportunism from Oman who votes Orig; he explains his vote even less.

FoS: Oman

Lucienne gets some points from me for saying she agrees on Orig but for also rightly questioning Oman’s vote. Same with BS. Same with Vamp. Same with shaft.ed. I don’t like Orig in #44. Oman has presented a trap; I have encountered this before and it was by a vanilla. Elias votes Oman for being opportunistic; a little hypocrisy methinks.

Page 3:

FoS: Aly

His argument against Orig seems very contrived to me. Lucienne mixes up Oman for Spurg as a vote reason; I don’t like. Shaft.ed points this out.

Page 4:

Discussion about Vamp’s lurking. *yawns*

Page 5:

In #105 Aly prods Vamp for opinions, specifically on Oman and BS, which strikes me as odd. BS claims “something” non-vanilla. Don’t like Aly hopping on Vamp’s wagon.

More FoS: AlyG

Page 6:

Oooh…

FoS: Orig

I do not like his Vamp vote, since he says Vamp is suspicious when Vamp is just being accused of lurkiness. I also do not like AlyG then posting a “Don’t lynch Vamp yet, but I will be fine with it in the next weeks”; I thought this was about lurking not suspicion.

Vote: AlyG

Page 7:

Vamp is AlyG’s main suspect…why? The vote was pressure for lurking.

Page 8:

AlyG swaps back to Originality after Lucinne votes Orig. Oman queries why AlyG is vote hopping and his answer doesn’t explain much.

Page 9:

Carrot votes AlyG!! Finally someone notices AlyG’s scumminess. Lucienne says Carrot’s post is “interesting” and then votes BS for non-content; Lucienne makes no real comment on AlyG. Shaft and Oman get townie points for attacking Orig’s fishing. Post #219 by AlyG is gold:

i've already explained why i kept my vote on Vampeaneze. Please re-read my posts. It was so he would remain pressured and be more inclined to defend himself.”

Then WHY did you accept Vamp’s lynch? Then AlyG deflects onto Oman.
BS looks very newbie to me (partially influenced by my views of BS meta). I don’t like the shift to BS

Page 10:

I don’t like the vote by Oman. Shafted and Orig get “townie brownies” for going against the lynch of BS.

Page 11:

AlyG supports getting rid of Orig today and BS tomorrow; a bit of a two-for-one….as Shaft.ed then points out. #267 AlyG really goes Inquisition on dybeck for not joining the Orig wagon.

Page 12:

Carrot rightly points out AlyG’s “well s/he did it too”. Good grief, AlyG then tries to deflect suspicion onto Carrot as Luci’s scumbuddy. I don’t like really think Oman’s vote for Ryan is persuasive.

Page 13:

Don’t like Dybeck’s vote either.

FoS: Oman

for a contrived case against Ryan. Orig and BS switch to Ryan. AlyG places a HoS.

Page 14:

Orig immediately jumps to defending himself.

HoS: Orig

Oman gives AlyG townie brownies…kind of like giving Hitler the Nobel Peace Prize.

FoS: Oman

AlyG’s first post looks to me like she is scum and didn’t NK BS in the hopes that we will lynch BS today. I know how WIFOM this is from me, but her faux exasperation about it and the fact she immediately suggests we “ate his claim” does this to me. She takes it back, realising he never claimed; doesn’t change her immediate response though. Shaft rightly FoSes AlyG on the basis of Carrot’s NK. AlyG’s #343 is so damned WIFOM. Orig’s voting logic is messed up and defensive of AlyG.

Now, all in all,
Elias_the_thief: Has done nothing to arouse my suspicion, but I may do a reread on him just to be sure.
Oman: Started off well but became increasingly contrived and is now defending AlyG. From the above, I gave

HoS: Oman

AlyG: Scum. Plain and simple. I have already voted but I will put it down here again for mod’s convenience and because I want to vote him again.

Vote: AlyG

Dr. Blackstrike: Newbish. I don’t think is scum.
Lucienne: Not particularly notable but a potential scumbuddy with AlyG based on earlier stuff.
originality: On one hand, AlyG has been rabidly against Orig. On the other, Orig’s latest play is defending himself and AlyG.

FoS: originality

shaft.ed: Town.
dybeck: Similar to Elias.

Ok,

Page 3: How is my argument contrived? Please explain.

Page 5: What is odd about asking questions about 3 users? you expect me to include questions on everyone? these users (Orig, Oman and BS) had all done something noteworthy the last few posts. I didn't mention anyone else because they hadn't done anything which striked me as weird at that recent time. How is that odd? And i didn't just "hop" on Vamp's Wagon, i held back from voting him and waited for a response to my questions which i didn't get. So i voted him to put more pressure on him so he would talk.

Page 6: About Vamp, he was tied with the most votes and he had pressure on him. There was a chance of him being lynched with no chance to explain himself which is why i said give him at least a week to explain himself. If he didn't then it meant that he was desperately trying to continue keeping out of conversation. So he would then he would be worthy of being lynched. And how can you say "I thought this was about lurking not suspicion." VampenezeHunter was

suspicious

because he was trying to keep out of conversation and was obviously

lurking!

which is why he had suspicion!

Page 7: He was my main suspect because of his continous lurking and how he wouldn't respond to my questions. How is there anything wrong with that?

Page 8: Well i vote hopped because i thought that Vamp was going to be replaced so my vote on him was now worthless. So i went back to my other main suspect originality. And how didn't my answer explain much? What should have been explained?

Page 9: I would have accepted Vamp's lynch if he didn't explain himself. If he didn't explain himself then it would be obvious he's esperately trying to keep out of the conversation, which i've already said.

Page 12: The reason i pointed out that Carrot Cake also did it was because it was weird how Lucienne overlooked Carrot's actions and went for mine. I never attacked carrot i attacked Lucienne for. This was my defense:

Why do i have to say why i did it? It's obvious i just believe that we should hang Blackstrike tomorrow and leave him to see if he really is the doctor and hope he can give us some benefit during night. The reason i said Lucienne may be scummy is because she completely overlooked your post and attacked mine for being scummy when yours was pretty much the same, which is weird. Which led me to believe she may be a scum partner with you by ignoring your post and attacking mine. I never attacked you. I attacked Lucienne.

This explains what i did.

I hope you answer my questions.

[AlyG]

Also, Volkann's Anlysis on Pages 10 to 14 should be quoted also. I don't know how it didn't. My post starts at "Ok"

[vollkan]

Page 3: How is my argument contrived? Please explain.

You fully acknowledged that Orig looked newbish and yet you sought to concoct a case against him.
1) The lynch lurkers thing - Despite you thinking him newb, you actually took this seriously as though he was trying to get rid of all the lurkers. The obvious thing to do is explain to him why a LaLurkers policy is stupid; instead you attack him for it.
2) Whether or not Lucienne was "lurking" (she wasn't, FTR) - Again, this is plainly just Orig being stupid. Instead, you make it sound like he was conspiring to score a scum lynch.
3) Agreement - Again; he is confused but you make it sound like a buddying up conspiracy.
4) "im town so dont vote me" - Again; his actions plainly bespeak of his newbishness but you make it a conspiracy.

Don't get me wrong, Orig could well be scum. However, AlyG has twisted these four points into scum plots when it's pretty clear it is just stupidity. Hanlon's Razor: cock-up before conspiracy.

Page 5: What is odd about asking questions about 3 users? you expect me to include questions on everyone? these users (Orig, Oman and BS) had all done something noteworthy the last few posts. I didn't mention anyone else because they hadn't done anything which striked me as weird at that recent time. How is that odd? And i didn't just "hop" on Vamp's Wagon, i held back from voting him and waited for a response to my questions which i didn't get. So i voted him to put more pressure on him so he would talk.

Prodding for opinions is something I consider a scumtell. By all means, say "X is not contributing" but specifically asking "What do you think of A, B and C?" looks like you are trying to get a particular response.

Not voting immediately doesn't justify it. Vamp had promised content; he was "at a friend's house".

Page 6: About Vamp, he was tied with the most votes and he had pressure on him. There was a chance of him being lynched with no chance to explain himself which is why i said give him at least a week to explain himself. If he didn't then it meant that he was desperately trying to continue keeping out of conversation. So he would then he would be worthy of being lynched. And how can you say "I thought this was about lurking not suspicion." VampenezeHunter was suspicious because he was trying to keep out of conversation and was obviously lurking! which is why he had suspicion!

See this is the thing. You vote to pressure Vamp to speak; I don't like how you did it, but whatever. Now it moves to you supporting his LYNCH. I mean, you go from wanting him to speak to wanting him dead. The ONLY thing which changed in the meantime was Orig's vote. You recognised the prospect of him swinging and you altered accordingly.

Page 7: He was my main suspect because of his continous lurking and how he wouldn't respond to my questions. How is there anything wrong with that?

You specifically said you were voting for pressure. You didn't mention suspicion until a lynch was on the cards. Don't be obtuse.

Page 9: I would have accepted Vamp's lynch if he didn't explain himself. If he didn't explain himself then it would be obvious he's esperately trying to keep out of the conversation, which i've already said.

What was there for him to explain, other than that he had not been active (which you have constantly just assumed to be a scum strategy). You shifted from wanting him to respond to your prodding questions to actually suspecting him, without articulating WHY you suspected him.

[Streeflo]

Day #2, Votecount #11!

Dr. Blackstrike (1) - originality
AlyG (1) - vollkan

Not voting: Everyone else

With

9

alive it takes

5

to lynch!

[AlyG]

Page 3: How is my argument contrived? Please explain.

You fully acknowledged that Orig looked newbish and yet you sought to concoct a case against him.
1) The lynch lurkers thing - Despite you thinking him newb, you actually took this seriously as though he was trying to get rid of all the lurkers. The obvious thing to do is explain to him why a LaLurkers policy is stupid; instead you attack him for it.
2) Whether or not Lucienne was "lurking" (she wasn't, FTR) - Again, this is plainly just Orig being stupid. Instead, you make it sound like he was conspiring to score a scum lynch.
3) Agreement - Again; he is confused but you make it sound like a buddying up conspiracy.
4) "im town so dont vote me" - Again; his actions plainly bespeak of his newbishness but you make it a conspiracy.

Don't get me wrong, Orig could well be scum. However, AlyG has twisted these four points into scum plots when it's pretty clear it is just stupidity. Hanlon's Razor: cock-up before conspiracy.

Actually, i said that orig

MAY

be either Newbish or Scum. And even if i did fully acknowledge that orig's action were indeed newbish i don't believe that it means there shouldn't be a case against him. Newbish or not if he's done suspicious things there's nothing wrong with putting a case against him.

1) I never posted saying that i thought of him as a newb. He seemed very scummy to me for the lynch all Lurkers attitude and it was his first post, i wasn't sure of him as a newb or not after a 1 one-line post! Which is why i took it seriously, i couldn't judge him at that time.

2) How do we know that he was plainly being stupid? His posts were very weird and suspicious. Which is why i thought it MAY either be a newb-tell or scum-tell.

3) Well it was weird how he completely contradicted himself to agree with CarrotCake. What was even weirder was that Carrot's post was only Right after his. So it seemed that he was agreeing with him to get on the town's good side.

4) I never acted like his post was a conspiracy and was scummy. All i said was that it was a stupid thing and not very useful thing to say. There's nothing wrong with that.

5) Not all points were attempts to accuse him as scum. At least you agree with me that he may well be scum. And also, he had done very weird things. Even if they were newbie acts they can't be

Completely

ignored.

Page 5: What is odd about asking questions about 3 users? you expect me to include questions on everyone? these users (Orig, Oman and BS) had all done something noteworthy the last few posts. I didn't mention anyone else because they hadn't done anything which striked me as weird at that recent time. How is that odd? And i didn't just "hop" on Vamp's Wagon, i held back from voting him and waited for a response to my questions which i didn't get. So i voted him to put more pressure on him so he would talk.

[quote="Vollkan]Prodding for opinions is something I consider a scumtell. By all means, say "X is not contributing" but specifically asking "What do you think of A, B and C?" looks like you are trying to get a particular response.

Not voting immediately doesn't justify it. Vamp had promised content; he was "at a friend's house".[/quote]

It's alright if he promises content then folows up to it. But promising content 3 times and then posting nothing 3 times is what everyone found very weird and suspicious! Here were his obvious acts of promising to make his opinions heard then throwing the promises out the window.

Yea I might tomorrow. After some discussion and i have had my beauty sleep!

I'll wait for some more disscussion before i make my opinions.

I have evr so slight gut feelings on a few people but in the next few pages i will express my views on people.

Page 6: About Vamp, he was tied with the most votes and he had pressure on him. There was a chance of him being lynched with no chance to explain himself which is why i said give him at least a week to explain himself. If he didn't then it meant that he was desperately trying to continue keeping out of conversation. So he would then he would be worthy of being lynched. And how can you say "I thought this was about lurking not suspicion." VampenezeHunter was suspicious because he was trying to keep out of conversation and was obviously lurking! which is why he had suspicion!

See this is the thing. You vote to pressure Vamp to speak; I don't like how you did it, but whatever. Now it moves to you supporting his LYNCH. I mean, you go from wanting him to speak to wanting him dead. The ONLY thing which changed in the meantime was Orig's vote. You recognised the prospect of him swinging and you altered accordingly.

He did eventually speak, but i wasn't very impressed with his argument and i gave points against it. So even AFTER he talked i still supported his lynch. There's nothing wrong with that.

Page 7: He was my main suspect because of his continous lurking and how he wouldn't respond to my questions. How is there anything wrong with that?

You specifically said you were voting for pressure. You didn't mention suspicion until a lynch was on the cards. Don't be obtuse.

I was voting to put pressure on him so he would stop his continuous lurking. When i put my vote on him i said that i hoped it would get him to talk. Which means my vote was to get him pressured and to stop lurking.

Page 9: I would have accepted Vamp's lynch if he didn't explain himself. If he didn't explain himself then it would be obvious he's esperately trying to keep out of the conversation, which i've already said.

What was there for him to explain, other than that he had not been active (which you have constantly just assumed to be a scum strategy). You shifted from wanting him to respond to your prodding questions to actually suspecting him, without articulating WHY you suspected him.

I wanted him to explain why he never posted content afer promising it 3 times. That's what i wanted to know. And after it's done 3 times it's become more than a mistake.

[Oman]

Sigh, this is not going to look good after vollkan got into me for defending but:

Vote AlyG

That post sat all wrong with me. It was basically saying "look, doctor blackstrike is still alive, lets lynch him" when there are many possibilities:

1) He could be scum lieing to us (Possible)

2) He could be a doc, protecting the wrong person (Possible)

3) He could have forgotten to send in a night choice (unlikely)

4) He could have been RBed (unlikely, though possible)

5) He could be any other role like a cop/hider/tracker that we don't see the results of (possible (likely))

6) The scum didn't kill him in the hope that some would say what you did, or to say it themselves (likely)

So there are 6 options, and you only looked at one.

[AlyG]

Sigh, this is not going to look good after vollkan got into me for defending but:

Vote AlyG

That post sat all wrong with me. It was basically saying "look, doctor blackstrike is still alive, lets lynch him" when there are many possibilities:

1) He could be scum lieing to us (Possible)

2) He could be a doc, protecting the wrong person (Possible)

3) He could have forgotten to send in a night choice (unlikely)

4) He could have been RBed (unlikely, though possible)

5) He could be any other role like a cop/hider/tracker that we don't see the results of (possible (likely))

6) The scum didn't kill him in the hope that some would say what you did, or to say it themselves (likely)

So there are 6 options, and you only looked at one.

Which post are you talking about? My first one to start the day? Which was this:

Oh Snap...Blackstrike wasn't NKed, we ate up his claim, he hasn't helped us at all and now i believe his claim was a lie. He is probably scum. FOS: Dr. Blackstrike I've got to re-read the thread now to try and get an understanding of who may have wanted the NK Carrotcake or Spurgistan.

Followed by this:

Un FOS: Dr. Blackstrike He never claimed Doctor...I was thinking like Ryan for a second there, That was an honest mistake guys...

Did you bother reading my second post? I accidentally said that he claimed Doctor. But a few minutes later i realised my mistake and i cleared it up because he never did and i Un-FOS'ed him. I never campaigned against him asking people to lynch him because he was still alive.

Your have strong points there although 3 is pretty useless i don't think anyone would be that forgetfull. And the mod would probably notify you if you didn't before night ends. So in conclusion my post was cleared up and i never said or thought that because Blackstike is alive lets lynch him. I never campaigned against him and i never just looked at one option. Some of the other options are the reason i didn't straight away arouse suspicion. I hope you understand.

[Oman]

Regardless of whether he was doctor or not, he could have protected someone else, and you've disregarded that part entirely.

So even if you thought he was doctor, why did you think he would protect carrotcake or spurg?

[spurgistan]

Sorry to interject, but Page 1 has Carrotcake's and my death inverted. I was bludgeoned, Carrotcake strangled. tsk tsk mod

[Streeflo]

Sorry to interject, but Page 1 has Carrotcake's and my death inverted. I was bludgeoned, Carrotcake strangled. tsk tsk mod

Bah! And

stay

dead!

Fixed =)

[dybeck]

Wow this is great, first we get a shortened D1, now it looks like there's probably a SK in the game.

If shaft.ed is not the serial killer I will eat my hat.

vote: shaft.ed

[dybeck]

Actually, there could be another candidate. Let me have a think.

unvote

[vollkan]

Wow this is great, first we get a shortened D1, now it looks like there's probably a SK in the game.

If shaft.ed is not the serial killer I will eat my hat.

vote: shaft.ed

Huh? Did I miss something?

[vollkan]

Cross-posted; but still. What do/did you mean?

[Oman]

dybeck, there are so many other solutions to that that I am tempted to vote you for being irrational. Two things saved you: The unvote and the fact that AlyG's post is still worse.

[AlyG]

dybeck, there are so many other solutions to that that I am tempted to vote you for being irrational. Two things saved you: The unvote and the fact that AlyG's post is still worse.

So your saying the unvote saved her. Why not me? I cleared up my apparent "Bad Post" with an Un-Fos minutes prior to my first one. An dyeah, Dybeck of all the thing sto vote for you go purely for guesswork.

[Oman]

Because yours is full of gappy logic I thought we cleared up D1.

[originality]

I think this hasn't been brought up yet, but do we know for sure which death is mafia kill and which is the sk? I don't know if theres a set pattern here that a certain type of death will tell who killed who, so is there anything im missing here?

[Elias_the_thief]

back, and rereading. content later, hopefully.

[Streeflo]

Lucienne

and

Dr

.

Blackstrike

have not posted since Day 2 started.

Prods going out.

Day 2 has started! It would be great of you to join us

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6073

[Dr. Blackstrike]

Lucienne

and

Dr

.

Blackstrike

have not posted since Day 2 started.

Prods going out.

Day 2 has started! It would be great of you to join us

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6073

-Doc "I got prodded and will post something soon" Blackstrike

[Lucienne]

Wow this is great, first we get a shortened D1, now it looks like there's probably a SK in the game.

I'm puzzled that this was your first reaction.

So you FOS'd me because you think that the person most likely to kill Carrot Cake was me because she had suspicion of me? If i was mafia which i'm not, why of all people to kill would i pick CarrotCake? the only person who had suspicions of me, wouldn't that look to obvious?

This is also WIFOM. Bad defence on that, guy.

On the cons, I guess someone could be setting him up. The more I think about it the more it seems that it would be a pretty good set up. (not kill the possible powerrole on night 1, making him suspicious, but instead killing the one persuing him.) Still, I think Dr. B is one of the best suspects now.

Translated: "This seems like it's setup. Might as well just go with it, though, anyway."

Un FOS: Dr. Blackstrike

He never claimed Doctor...I was thinking like Ryan for a second there, That was an honest mistake guys...

I'm lost. Even if he isn't a doc, there's a possibility that he is another power-role...

Actually, there could be another candidate. Let me have a think.

unvote

Clarify, please.

[shaft.ed]

Welcome to the game vollkan. Nice to have you in another of my mini's. Saves typing since I can post

I agree with vollkan

more often than not.

Anyway, pretty good analysis of the game thus far. Two major things discomfitted me however.

1) While I agree that AlyG's play was a bit questionable in the first day, you paint it as glaringly scummy. A lot of this analysis is based on AlyG attacking obviously newbish plays, but you fail to take into account that AlyG is in fact also new to the site. It seems that some of his heartened attacks could also be made from a new players perspective. For this reason, I am definitely suspicious of AlyG, but the way you paint him as obvo-scum is a bit over the top.

2) You hardly even mention Dr. Blackstrike's play at all. I also meta'd him and think I understand what he's doing to some extent, but for god's sake he basically said "I'm acting like scum, therefore I won't be NK'd like scum because the scum are setting me up not because I am scum." This deserves and FoS no matter what you meta'd on him.

Combining these points with the fact that we got absolutely no read on your predecesor D1 and I am a tiny bit suspicious of you.

mFoS vollkan

@AlyG, I don't have time to go over everything PBP right now. But as others have pointed out your defense is a bit lacking. I'll try to get back with specifics so my argument amounts to more than "you're just scummy."

@Dr. Blackstrike, I would very much like to hear from you.

@dybeck

Wow this is great, first we get a shortened D1, now it looks like there's probably a SK in the game.

If shaft.ed is not the serial killer I will eat my hat.

vote: shaft.ed

?Que pasa?

@Lucienne

Wow this is great, first we get a shortened D1, now it looks like there's probably a SK in the game.

I'm puzzled that this was your first reaction.

It's my first reaction because I was already upset that Retarded Ryan basically pissed away D1 for us. Then the new day begins with the added bonus of having two killing roles, which makes the game much more difficult for the town.

@Oman

Sigh, this is not going to look good after vollkan got into me for defending but:

Vote AlyG

That post sat all wrong with me. It was basically saying "look, doctor blackstrike is still alive, lets lynch him" when there are many possibilities:

1) He could be scum lieing to us (Possible)

2) He could be a doc, protecting the wrong person (Possible)

3) He could have forgotten to send in a night choice (unlikely)

4) He could have been RBed (unlikely, though possible)

5) He could be any other role like a cop/hider/tracker that we don't see the results of (possible (likely))

6) The scum didn't kill him in the hope that some would say what you did, or to say it themselves (likely)

So there are 6 options, and you only looked at one.

You're right it doesn't look good. This entire game you've been jumping from one wagon to the next. Now you see vollkan enter the game and provide a strong case against AlyG and the first thing you do is jump aboard.

FoS Oman

[vollkan]

1) While I agree that AlyG's play was a bit questionable in the first day, you paint it as glaringly scummy. A lot of this analysis is based on AlyG attacking obviously newbish plays, but you fail to take into account that AlyG is in fact also new to the site. It seems that some of his heartened attacks could also be made from a new players perspective. For this reason, I am definitely suspicious of AlyG, but the way you paint him as obvo-scum is a bit over the top.

Your point is valid and a good one. I'd argue that AlyG is not a complete novice, though. AlyG has been here long enough not to be able to rely on concessions for inexperience. The mistakes that he has made and the number and nature of those mistakes accumulates to scumminess. I think we should be wary of possible opportunism (potentially see also: Oman) nonetheless because it could well be due to his slight inexperience.

2) You hardly even mention Dr. Blackstrike's play at all. I also meta'd him and think I understand what he's doing to some extent, but for god's sake he basically said "I'm acting like scum, therefore I won't be NK'd like scum because the scum are setting me up not because I am scum." This deserves and FoS no matter what you meta'd on him.

I have prior experience with BS and, since you say you have meta'd, you will know what I mean. When I read the part you refer to, I cringed, but I'm not going to hold suspicion against BS until he does something I recognise as being anti-town, rather than just ridiculous. His "so I don't get NKed" thing is idiotic, but I think it more likely than not he was genuine because it is entirely consistent with his play meta-wise.

In short, I do have my eye on BS, but I am waiting for him to do something which I regard as inconsistently anti-town.

Combining these points with the fact that we got absolutely no read on your predecesor D1 and I am a tiny bit suspicious of you. mFoS vollkan

I haven't replaced into a game before. I know that a lot of people do reread their predecessor but I have never understood why. If you would like me to do a reread of my play before replacement I can, and I will combine it with a read of BS too.