Mini 803 - Pale Moon Risin' (Over!)

[Zilla]

Catching up, but I'll be deploying the premade post now.

[Zilla]

Way to leave the option open in case you have to bus him though.

Okay, seriously, that had to be planned. It was a catch-22 setup designed to make me out as the bad girl no matter what I said. If he's obv-town, I'm "defending a scum partner." If I think he's scum, I'm "bussing a scum partner." If I'm a rational townie who trusts someone but still has nagging paranoia that they're being played like a fiddle, I'm "leaving the option open in case I have to bus him."

If you read my original post where I outline my stance, it's very obvious that I consider him town, but that it's still possible he's scum. KMD was deliberately baiting with his question on my stance on Incognito. I don't see how anyone could mistake my stance based on this:

I think it's possible Incognito is buddying up to me in an attempt to look town, because yes, he's actually using his head, which apparently a few players aren't capable of here, but at least he's reading the thread and actively hunting scum, and even if his pro-town act is a charade, at least it looks pro-town, which is better than the scumbuckets Mykonian, VP, Llama, and KMD, and loads better than lazy tunneler Charter, and even better than lurker ZazieR and scant-poster Plum.

By this point, I can't see KMD being town. He's made a shoddy case based on things that lack any semblance of scum motivation based on hollow, inaccurate "tells" (He's actually voting me in part for OMGUS? What is this, 2007? OMGUS is null; town are of course going to be critical of people who make cases on someone they have the benefit of knowing is pro-town.), he has ignored half of the players, he's strangely not playing obv-town (Incognito's play is what I would have expected from KMD), and he's turned a blind eye to Mykonian because "he doesn't see a case" on him, and instead of actually investigating and making his own decicsion, he asks for other people to lay out a better case for him (Huge scumtell; it avoids accountability in the event that Mykonian is town, it buddies to Mykonian if Mykonian is town, it defends Mykonian if Mykonian is scum, and it shows that he isn't interested in actual scumhunting).

Pending Mykonian's answer to my question in the last post,

Unvote: Mykonian
Vote: KMD

[charter]

Hahahaha
Rich.

[LlamaFluff]

Vote VP Baltar

While I support the Zilla case, I don't think it's necessary to finish the day so quickly. I would particularly like to look at mykonian, particularly the potential for him to be Zilla's scumbuddy.

Early on VP latches on to both cases (myk and Zilla), and comes to a conclusion that they are both scum, but myk being scum is strengthened if zilla is scum. From there he goes on to talk about instances of what he calls distancing between the two players. The conclusion is not fitting with the first quoted paragraph though. From what the entire post I saw, myk and zilla are both likely scum, but more so zilla.

Mykonian, is Zilla's meta in that one instance the only thing that brought you out of feeling she wasn't voteworthy "at the time" to know putting her fairly close to lynch?

Unvote, Vote:mykonian

After this though, he again goes back to calling zilla scummy for the early on actions.

I've been suspicious of mykonian since early in the game when he was testing the waters of my "wagon" early in the game. His complete reluctance to vote even after the game was well out of the RVS is scummy.

Fair enough, but then we get

Then we have Zilla acting independently scummy. So, I see two people acting scummy and then I looked at their reasons for voting each other. I think if you really examine them you will see how shaky their reasons are when there really are better reasons for voting each of them.

My feelings on mykon are not dependent on Zilla,

but I think they could theoretically be scum together.
(Just for reference, I think my case points more to Zilla bussing mykon if they're both scum and mykon being hesitant to bus Zilla)

The bolded is complete bull. You spent the entire last big post citing all of the instances which make myk scum with Zilla. You actually said you wanted to look at myk “particularly the potential to have him be Zillas buddy”. From what I have seen your entire myk case is “scum with Zilla”.

Family reunion this weekend, but I will try and finish up this case by then. I still think that Zilla and myk are town at this point.

[camn]

Hmmm.

Zilla, I am almost ready to follow you on this KMD biz.
Something about post #325 seems funny to me.. I'm not sure what it is yet.. but I'm going to think about it over drinks tonight... see if I can nail it down.

hmm.

[Zilla]

mykonian, I don't get what you're asking in your last post to me. Clarify?

If I ask zilla for town games, I expect, if she is scum or town, that she comes with games that would show her playing just as she did here. The fact that she didn't give such a game is a bit weird, and shouldn't defend her, don't you think?

Mykonian.

Listen.

I've addressed this point MANY times, and you still seem to have ignored it.

You are looking in the wrong places in those games. You're looking at a time when we were following power-role mechanics (roleblockers causing no-nightkills, PO claiming innocents and guilties, etc.) I've already told you where to look in those games. Since the meta seems to be the entire premise of your case, it should be something you would check up on.

[Zilla]

Oh, I see. Well, I'm basically under the impression that she doesn't have such games on MS since she's only played games as town on here as a replacement and never starting from the very beginning of a game. Zilla, got any games where you might have used Spaghetti Strategy as town from another site maybe?

Bioshock mafia, already linked. The game died because I ended up breaking it.

Also interesting to note, this game where there were two teams of equal strength, and I turned a potential joke of Red vs Blue into a full blown case resulting in a lynch.

And finally, I have just realized the best way to explain my vote on Porkens. Family Guy Mafia, my vote on Puta.

With all that on the table, I'm going to go with
Vote: Puta puta
for

quick! let's insta-wagon!

and

must...join...wagon... Unvote Vote:Xtoxm


I'm guessing it's a level 2 WIFOM-attention whore move, and he's attempting to hide in plain sight.

This is the EXACT same kind of vote I put on Porkens. I truly believed his two quoted things were scummy (I've learned now the values of bandwagoning in RVS), probably more than I should have, and made a quasi-serious vote on him. I would have easily moved my vote if he hadn't gone on a lurkfest afterward.

I did this as town.

Interestingly, Puta was also town.

Also interestingly, Family Guy parallels this one in that I get run up a pole early day 1. Also Charter tunnels on someone way too hardcore (Family Guy, it was scumbuddy Wolframhart, who went through a ton of replacements). His lockjaw in this game is VERY similar to his scum game in Family Guy, and completeley dissimilar to his (recently finished) town game in Monopoly Mafia.

I'm actually surprised Llama and KMD haven't called him on it, especially KMD who did comment on Charter's strategy postgame in Family Guy:

LOL @ Charter tunneling on a "slip" he "caught" his scumbuddy on!!!

Yes, the logical extension is that Charter, if he were pulling the same gambit, would be tunneling on scum-partner Zilla, BUT I'm highly suspicious that KMD didn't mention this at all.

Both KMD and Llama were alive up to the end of Family Guy, whereas I died right in the very middle section of the game. This means they were exposed to Charter's tunneling even more.

[Zilla]

EBWOP:

With all that on the table, I'm going to go with
Vote: Puta puta
for

quick! let's insta-wagon!

and

must...join...wagon... Unvote Vote:Xtoxm

I'm guessing it's a level 2 WIFOM-attention whore move, and he's attempting to hide in plain sight.

This is the EXACT same kind of vote I put on Porkens. I truly believed his two quoted things were scummy (I've learned now the values of bandwagoning in RVS), probably more than I should have, and made a quasi-serious vote on him. I would have easily moved my vote if he hadn't gone on a lurkfest afterward.

I did this as town.

Interestingly, Puta was also town.

Also interestingly, Family Guy parallels this one in that I get run up a pole early day 1. Also Charter tunnels on someone way too hardcore (Family Guy, it was scumbuddy Wolframhart, who went through a ton of replacements). His lockjaw in this game is VERY similar to his scum game in Family Guy, and completeley dissimilar to his (recently finished) town game in Monopoly Mafia.

I'm actually surprised Llama and KMD haven't called him on it, especially KMD who did comment on Charter's strategy postgame in Family Guy:

LOL @ Charter tunneling on a "slip" he "caught" his scumbuddy on!!!

Yes, the logical extension is that Charter, if he were pulling the same gambit, would be tunneling on scum-partner Zilla, BUT I'm highly suspicious that KMD didn't mention this at all.

Both KMD and Llama were alive up to the end of Family Guy, whereas I died right in the very middle section of the game. This means they were exposed to Charter's tunneling even more.

[Zilla]

I also support lynching VP.

[charter]

I'm not voting anyone but Zilla.

[charter]

A little elaboration for fun. Zilla supports the lynch of literally everyone but herself. (and maybe camn)

[Zilla]

Town-charter comes out of his tunnel and at least looks around. Scum-charter would be more aptly called... boring? (as in the kind with a bore, not the inuninteresting kind). I prefer "lockjaw" for this.

Town-charter, even when he is convinced someone is scum, will continue to hunt scum. Scum-charter sinks his vote and, again, doesn't even look anywhere else.

Town-charter is more responsive. Scum-charter has a vendetta and an attitude problem.

[Zilla]

A little elaboration for fun. Zilla supports the lynch of literally everyone but herself. (and maybe camn)

Put up or shut up.

I know you once made the point that I "have a scum theory" for everyone, I'm surprised you're going as far as to try to stretch it that I support anyone's lynch. Right now, I'll support KMD, VP, and Llama, and if none of those, Mykonian. I will NOT support Porkens-lynch unless Porkens basically comes in here and says "Hey guys, if you lynch me, I get to kill a scum player automatically." I don't support a Plum, Camn, or ZazieR lynch (no, I'm not sexist). I don't support an incognito lynch. I'd be reluctant on a Charter lynch because there's only one point to be made against him.

[Zilla]

Camn, what's your read of VP?

[charter]

There's already one scum dead. Zilla is another scum. How many suspects do I have to have? I assume there's three scum, so I'm just looking for one more person. Frankly, power roles should be able to nab the last scum.

And your put up or shut up is incredibly old and doesn't actually defend against anything, just a poor way to attempt and shy off things. I suppose that you might not "support" the lynch of everyone, but in the last few pages, you've voiced suspicion on everyone but camn, so it doesn't seem like you think anyone is town, except camn. There, camn is the third scum.

[SpyreX]

The Vote God Demands Sustenance!

Kmd4390 (1): Zilla
Zazier (0):
Plum (0):
Llamafluff (1): Incognito
Porkens (0):
camn (0):
Mykonian (2): VP Baltar, camn
charter (0):
Incognito (0):
Zilla (2): Charter, Kmd4390

VP Baltar (3): Mykonian, Plum, Llamafluff

With 11 alive, it is 6 to lynch.

Deadline: Thursday June 11th 10:30 PST

[Kmd4390]

[qupte="Zilla"]KMD was deliberately baiting with his question on my stance on Incognito[/quote]

Well, if I think he's your buddy, I'm obviously going to look into it some more.

OMGUS is null

Do you HONESTLY believe this? If so, then wow. Just...wow.

he has ignored half of the players

In a game that moves as quickly as Spy's games, I'm going to take a few suspects, find which is scummiest, and push like hell all day. See ANY game I've played on SA for evidence of this.

he's turned a blind eye to Mykonian because "he doesn't see a case" on him, and instead of actually investigating and making his own decicsion, he asks for other people to lay out a better case for him

Not true. I actually am defending Myko. Not turning a blind eye because I don't see a case. Defending because I'm convinced he is town.

Huge scumtell; it avoids accountability in the event that Mykonian is town, it buddies to Mykonian if Mykonian is town, it defends Mykonian if Mykonian is scum, and it shows that he isn't interested in actual scumhunting

I'm not avoiding accountability at all. If Myko is scum, I come out looking terrible. If he's town, someone can still make the "Kmd knew he was town and going to be lynched, so he defended" argument". I don't see how this would help me if I were scum.

And LOL at not interested in scumhunting. I'm pretty sold on you being scum, so I'm pushing that. VP is next in line because of his vote being on Myko over you for pretty much BS reasons. If you flip scum, I look at Incog and Camn closer. I'm trying to figure out Llama. I looked at Plum briefly. To say I am not scumhunting or I am tunneling is completely BS.

Yes, the logical extension is that Charter, if he were pulling the same gambit, would be tunneling on scum-partner Zilla, BUT I'm highly suspicious that KMD didn't mention this at all.

Heh, I actually forgot that ZONE was scum too. But I see Charter as town, so why would I mention the thought of him bussing here?

Both KMD and Llama were alive up to the end of Family Guy, whereas I died right in the very middle section of the game. This means they were exposed to Charter's tunneling even more.

If anything, he tunneled on

himself

in the end. He claimed scum, told the SK to No Lynch, backed off of his scum claim, got lynched, and lost.

His lockjaw in this game is VERY similar to his scum game in Family Guy, and completeley dissimilar to his (recently finished) town game in Monopoly Mafia.

Know what else it's similar to? His attacks on Nameless (town) in Mini 672 where he was town and on Me (town) in Newbie 744.

Town-charter comes out of his tunnel and at least looks around. Scum-charter would be more aptly called... boring? (as in the kind with a bore, not the inuninteresting kind). I prefer "lockjaw" for this.

Town-charter, even when he is convinced someone is scum, will continue to hunt scum. Scum-charter sinks his vote and, again, doesn't even look anywhere else.

Town-charter is more responsive. Scum-charter has a vendetta and an attitude problem.

Sounds like your experience with Charter is FAR from being the same as mine.

I'd be reluctant on a Charter lynch because there's only one point to be made against him.

Then why are you pushing that point so hard? And which point is the one point you are referring to? Tunneling? His meta? "Lockjaw"?

Camn, what's your read of VP?

OMGBAITING!

Or is that only when I ask the same question to you about Incog?

[camn]

I'm drunk.. and I will look at VP.. but I gotta say.. my drunk-read on KMD?

SCUM.

that is all.
Except. I am SO GLAD summer is here!

[Zilla]

I agree.

KMD is scum.

I'm not even going to quote-by-quote him anymore because as far as I'm concerned, I've won the debate between us, and he's become Charter II. Unfortunately, KMD doesn't have the same meta as Charter and can't use that as cover. Town KMD is a town player.

He hasn't even defended against my case, instead making paltry points against me. I think there's a name for that but it escapes me now.

If we do confirm KMD is scum, I'll be pretty sold on Mykonian being town.

I will still lynch VP if KMD isn't viable at deadline, but KMD is my top pick.

[Zilla]

Note: Not on speaking terms with KMD until he defeats my defense or at least starts actually scumhunting.

[mykonian]

There's already one scum dead. Zilla is another scum. How many suspects do I have to have?

I assume there's three scum

, so I'm just looking for one more person. Frankly, power roles should be able to nab the last scum.

And your put up or shut up is incredibly old and doesn't actually defend against anything, just a poor way to attempt and shy off things. I suppose that you might not "support" the lynch of everyone, but in the last few pages,

you've voiced suspicion on everyone but camn

, so it doesn't seem like you think anyone is town, except camn.

There, camn is the third scum.

does it get more scummy?

because zazie just pointed out that it would be likely that there are 2 scumteams... you just assume there is one, without any reasoning?

nice and subjective, just claiming it is that way. Please tell me how this is protown

and horrible logic.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, apparently I have a massive catch-up/defense post to do, so here it goes:

If she defends and I disagree with the defense, I'm going to counter her points and it may seem repetitive. That's how it works.

If not Zilla, I'd look at Plum or Llama. Neither of the two is playing to their town meta. I've mentioned this before.

Yeah, but it's the same arguments again and again. 'was she serious or not?' 'her reasons for voting myk weren't great'. etc. It doesn't seem like you are gaining any ground in your questioning when you could easily move on to Plum or Llama and get some new information in the game.

I can't tell if myk 322 is scare tactics or genuine.

(VP) said that he thought the cases raised against the both of them were equally good

Actually, you said I said that. Please quote me where I said that.

Ok, I see with this back and forth between Incog and Kmd I need to bring up my vote post on mykonian again. While I did point out how they could be scum together, my reasons for voting mykonian were not dependent upon Zilla being scum (as in, if Zilla's not scum, I have no reason to be voting myk).

Let's go to the posts:

My iso posts 5, 6, and 7 all clearly show that I was finding myk suspicious for the way he tried to say i was suspicious based on Porkens' vote in the RVS. What really stuck out to me about this is that I had 3 votes on me and he appeared to be testing the waters to cast a 4th, even though the previous 3 just seemed like an early wagon to check for reactions.

Then the points i make in my voting post:

I admit that the opening does sound bad now that I read over it.

I would particularly like to look at mykonian, particularly the potential for him to be Zilla's scumbuddy.

The first point I make against mykonian is really independent of whether Zilla is scum or not.

When mykonian was speaking about his reasons for not random voting he said this:

Slightly better then random voting, as you did, works way better in getting the game going. But I don't yet want to vote zilla, till I have seen more.

I already mentioned how this struck me as odd concerning his feeling out of a case on me. Looking at it again, if "slightly better than random voting" is his idea of getting the game going, why didn't he vote Zilla at that point, who he had begun to question seriously?

My second point about him backing out of his Zilla vote, is somewhat dependent upon her being scum. The point about Zilla voting to distance obviously is fully depedent.

I seem to return to point 3 when I say:

Then we get some talk about needing a town meta on Zilla from mykon (which he could probably easily find himself if he really cared). Toward the end of page four he still spends more time talking about why he would rather not vote and does not hesitate to joke with players and talk about final examinations.

This, again, could be seen as dependent or not dependent depending upon how you want to take it.

Point 5 is not dependent at all upon Zilla being scum, but could just be seen as a scum mykonian going along finally with a promising wagon:

On page 5, Charter, Incog and Llama start coming down a bit harder on Zilla and don't seem like they are going to let up anytime soon. Finally, we get a magical vote out of mykonian based on the fact that Zilla is being attacked in this game for something that she was once attacked for as scum.

So, you would hopefully see why I have some problems with my vote being generalized as entirely dependent upon Zilla being scum, because it's not. There are points that were, and I definitely should have been more careful in what I said when I opened that post, but I think this case is definitely being backed somewhere by scum under these somewhat false premises.

You were making it out that I supported their lynches equally, which is not true. The point I was making about Zilla's wagon being the leading one at the time is this: why would I, as scum, not vote for Zilla's wagon that was gaining steam when it wouldn't have been suspicious at all to do so? Even though mykon was second wagon, wouldn't the obvious play there for scum have been to go after the wagon most likely to lynch in the shortest possible time?

Does this not reek of backtracking?

How is it backtracking? Backtracking is when you rescind something you said. That quote is all wifom to the wifom filled point you made, but nowhere did I say I supported their lynches equally before, so how am I backtracking?

VP, sorry if this was already asked, but would you still support a Zilla lynch?

Less so, especially since she got out of her overly defensive mode and started doing more scumhunting.

But she didn't jump on Charter or Porkens, the players in question. She merely commented on her views of them given that they were voting for her. That's not a scummy OMGUS reaction at all. Misrep much?

She did, however, jump on mykon, myself and Kmd when questioned. Which is what I said. How is that misrep?

Asking for opinions of specific players helps give more of a paper trail and expose those voting or marking down players as town for weak, illogical, or scummy reasons. It serves many purposes, but I've yet to see connections be pointed out on Day 1 in a way that helps the town more than the scum.

That's awesome, I disagree. How does that make me scummy?

(Zilla) voted (mykon) for one of the two reasons you gave against him that work as tells independent of the scumbuddies-based case. You also seemed to think that his reluctance to vote was scummy.

It looks scummier from a third party view, imo. If I know I'm town, and someone says 'hey this was kind of scummy, I need to investigate more before I vote', then I might be inclined to think they are town giving me the benefit of the doubt. Whereas, if I'm a third party observer and I see a player him-hawing around a vote I would see it as suspicious because I don't know either player's alignment.

I don't see how Incog's point was WIFOM.

He said if I was scum I would have placed my vote on mykon at that time because such and such a reason. How is that not wifom?

Llama post 353 is obv-sheeping along where he ignores what everyone has asked him.

[charter]

Myk, Because the flipped scum has a name, that means there are two groups? We just had a massive debate about this in an ongoing game (cough Incog cough), I REALLY don't want to do it again here especially since it's day one and there is zero evidence and it really doesn't matter at this point. Now, if come tonight, there are multiple kills, then I will go back and revise my assumption of three scum, but day one (unless I know otherwise) I always just assume three scum.

And you seriously have not seen Zilla's continued shit throwing? Did you go look at her posts from the past few pages? It's very obvious, but if you still need me to point it out, I will. Post 252 names mykonian, VP, LLama, Kmd as scum. It also softly accuses Incog, ZazieR, Plum. 280 is more "not liking" soft accusations. Probably some others, that's just a cursory glance.

[mykonian]

My iso posts 5, 6, and 7 all clearly show that I was finding myk suspicious for the way he tried to say i was suspicious based on Porkens' vote in the RVS. What really stuck out to me about this is that I had 3 votes on me and he appeared to be testing the waters to cast a 4th, even though the previous 3 just seemed like an early wagon to check for reactions.

You again don't get it, after I explained. Porkens had a good observation, although it was a small point. I liked Porkens his reaction, as it should a town way of thinking. Thank you for adding this to an already dying case. Thank you for hoping everybody forgot the defence already.

So, you would hopefully see why I have some problems with my vote being generalized as entirely dependent upon Zilla being scum, because it's not. There are points that were, and I definitely should have been more careful in what I said when I opened that post, but I think this case is definitely being backed somewhere by scum under these somewhat false premises.

But why even try to have both persons in one scumteam, with such a complicated theory? That is the question. You just try to get the best of both, to give you some room to vote one of them. You vote the smaller wagon, to pressure them both, and not seem to eager.

[mykonian]

Myk, Because the flipped scum has a name, that means there are two groups?

Why just blindly assume it is only one, while you could also think about the other scenario?