In post 3047, FakeGod wrote:Perhaps if it was public knowledge from the beginning that there were only two factions in this game, it would have solve this problem?
Yeah, I think it would've. As-is, if I felt I was in danger the final Day, I could've just claimed SK without fear of counterclaim.
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I don't think the godfather was that big of a deal (I mean, it was nice how things went in this game, don't get me wrong, but...) Not only was godfather a possibility that was repeatedly mentioned D2, but Kagami's miller claim should've already primed that there were roles that could interact with results. Were this my setup, I would've added in a note along the lines of, "You're a cop. You're sane. But there may be other abilities that interfere with your results." or similar, but especially with this being role madness, I do feel that that is just the meta expectation, really.
Now, it being a swingy role (godfather either does nothing if you're never investigated or it does SO MUCH if you are) is a different matter, but holy hell, this game was *filled* with swingy roles regardless, so singling that one out is just meh.
In post 3040, Feirei wrote:If you "caught" him, why did you waste your vig on someone who was blatantly obvtown, vezok?
BECAUSE HE CLAIMED THAT ABILITIES WOULDN'T WORK ON HIM.
Why would I waste my vig on him? I had every reason to believe it is not a good idea to shoot zmuffin. Magua didn't obvscum himself until day 3.
The thing that hurt was how quickly LyLo came. We lost in 3 game days. That's pretty rough.
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In post 3045, Kagami wrote: Usually that alone means scum wins, unless town has a reason to believe there is a godfather (which we didn't).
I agree with you on paper, but among all the games I have played, in two games godfather got investigated as town, yet town won both games. (My first Large Normal and Bipolar Mafia)
I don't think there was a game I was in which godfather was investigated as town, and scum team won.
It's small-sample statistic, so I know it doesn't mean much, but I don't think godfather getting investigated as town doesn't necessarily mean it's an auto-win for the scum team.
I agree with this, but I learned mafia on sites where nearly every game had both a cop and a godfather (and sometimes a miller), and the rule of thumb was "trust no cop results unless a godfather flips".
The MS approach is to nerf cops in other ways, and I think it does lead toward putting more stock in cop results.
Amid the pressure of great events, a general principle gives no help.
I think site meta has actually shifted toward cops being more credible than in the past. I don't think that was a huge problem with balance here although Varsoon probably would not have drawn a vote from me easily at all.
I had absolutely no idea how to use my role effectively.
Magua was also a godfather if he wanted to be (which is exactly what would have happened if he were investigated by sakura).
Godfathers who get investigated can get lynched, sure, but in a game where we only get three lynches? And there's also no "why isn't the conf-town NKed yet?" since there are so many pseudo-ICs who are reasonable targets.
In any case, I feel like I deserve a good portion of the blame for the loss. I really, really shouldn't have voted/pushed victor, but I didn't realize why until halfway through the final day when I was already stuck on him. Varsoon's perfect freeze was a key move, since otherwise magua-lynch would likely have happened.
No matter how high the stakes, sooner or later you're just gonna have to go with your gut.
And maybe, just maybe, that'll take you right where you were supposed to be.
Oh, btw, I didn't block magua last night because I believed there was an SK. There was no reason to stop potential mafia (or potential SK even) from making a kill.
In post 3060, Kagami wrote:Oh, btw, I didn't block magua last night because I believed there was an SK. There was no reason to stop potential mafia (or potential SK even) from making a kill.
some of this is probably me being butthurt, but I have shit to say regarding this setup.
first off, godfather is a pretty much shit role. This is why. It is never a good theory play to lynch a cop inno - and so all a GF does is make town insta lose if he happens to get investigate, which is what happened here. it's adding a lot of luck in for absolutely no reason and it would have been infinitely more effective for both sides if scum had one of those towncred roles that had really good looking claims (which zmuffin had said earlier)
as a result of that, I was putting off lynching obv scum varsoon until D2. so theoretically there was literally no reason to lynch him all game, despite being really really obvious. We got punched in the face for making an otherwise excellent move, investigating scum on D1.
second, the QT spy. the more I think about it, I realize it's complete bullshit. it literally screwed over all the benefits of that masonry and, again,punished us for trying to play well. The advantage of having a masonry is misdirection - by keeping it secret, we can try to survive a long time as conf town and set up power plays to screw scum over. However, thanks to that, there was liteally no way we could do that. Scum not only had allthat info, but they knew our exact roles. This is even more so the case when NS had an autowin card at 4p LYLO - it dangled the idea of flying under the radar in our face and then proceeded to spit on us when we went for it.
A large part of my play this game had to do with that. I noticed several off notes about zmuffin late D1 that I didn't pursue, EXPLICITLY BECAUSE I was trying to get to D2 - and I would have balls to the walled much much more if I knew of this.
FG also asked why I didn't just claim and ask for protection -but that doesn't work either since town didn't have any protective roles. so me and NS were completely fucked no matter what happened.
Kagami also had a good point regarding yukari - scum can get 2 fucking godfathers. which is pretty much bullshit and not fun at all, especially when one already caused an auto loss for town. I think having scum vig is also swingy as fuck on scum side and really unexpected on town side although it is a creative role.
I do love how creative the setup was, but when it came to how it ran, I think it, overall, consistently punished good play on the town side by a lot, which is p much complete bullshit and is smth no setup should do to this extent. I obv made a lot of missteps, but even if I thought things through harder, I do not think I could have accounted for all the shit the setup was throwing at us.
to elaborate on the first point, I did call varsoon godfather in dead qt. it was so obvious and I was headdesking because scum obviously let Sakura get that inno - why would they do that? But that is the point - it is literally just that bad of a theory play to lynch a cop inno.
feel free to ignore all this if you disagree, im not a dedicated setup designer or anything, these are just my thoughts from a gameplay POV.
If you, a player, didn't derive enjoyment from this game, then I, the game designer, am responsible.
Although we already talked about the setup for pages in the dead qt, feel free to PM me if you still want to talk to someone regarding the setup, pieguyn.
I can share my thoughts and justifications that went into it as it was made, if you wish.
Rolled Godfather
Acted scummy
Got the Investigate Inno (I was so worried Sakura would just lie and be like, "Lol investigate turned up scum")
Didn't catch a bullet (I wanted to eat someone's one-shot somewhere, but shrugs)
Misdirected and rode the wave of hate into eternity.
As usual, I really enjoyed the setup. Your games are a lot of fun due to the wide variety of roles and abilities available. I also like having Neighborhoods with people, so this satisfied that itch, too.
I love neighbhorhoods. My only concern with them is that they sometimes bleed off activity that really belongs in the game thread, which causes the rest of the game to suffer a little from the lock-out of info.
Amid the pressure of great events, a general principle gives no help.
