Mini 987: Alternative Vote Mafia- Ovah!

[Jack]

mmm, if there's a bodyguard than surely the claimed doctor is scum.

[Ellibereth]

then what happened to the NK?

[Jack]

then what happened to the NK?

Maybe the mod took it away for balance :p

[TheButtonmen]

wut I was expecting Pom to be the doctor.

Why?

[Ellibereth]

She knows I have a meta for freaking out at lack of claims near death.
She was almost certainly dead if I had voted her outright at the top of the list yesterday.
So I thought she couldn't be scum, because she would know to claim just to appease my usual bloodlust over lack of claims.
But I thought there was no reason for her to do it as a vnilla.
So I thought she was a PR>
Which is why i avoided stating reasons over why. Lack of kill today made me think she was doctor.
So yeah.

[TheButtonmen]

[vollkan]

This makes no sense. The absence of NK strongly suggests a protection, and yet the way the claims have gone it would mean that TBM must be lying and, conversely, that Zach must be telling the truth (which surprises me, to say the least).

She knows I have a meta for freaking out at lack of claims near death.
She was almost certainly dead if I had voted her outright at the top of the list yesterday.
So I thought she couldn't be scum, because she would know to claim just to appease my usual bloodlust over lack of claims.
But I thought there was no reason for her to do it as a vnilla.
So I thought she was a PR>
Which is why i avoided stating reasons over why. Lack of kill today made me think she was doctor.

How do you know she is aware of your meta for freaking out about lack of claims?

[Ellibereth]

I have a confirmed sane innocent on Button.
I recall me going mad about that in a game with here, either the drama one or tar's. I think it was in our mason qt in the drama won.

[Ellibereth]

Pom and Shattered are yet to check in. That's it right?

[Ellibereth]

Oops. I didn't freak out over it in our mason QT. I remember a game somewhere with her where I went off about it though.
Also, I said that she would claim and I would vote her, and she said no twice or something here, and I didn't think scumPom would take a risk like that and Pomvanilla would have just claimed.

[vollkan]

I have a confirmed sane innocent on Button.

Which means, absent inv-immunity, Button can only be scum in a Elli-Button scumteam. This increases the likelihood of Zach being scum, but also my confusion.

Pom and Shattered are yet to check in. That's it right?

Yeah.

Also, I said that she would claim and I would vote her, and she said no twice or something here, and I didn't think scumPom would take a risk like that and Pomvanilla would have just claimed.

Okay. That makes sense.

[Jack]

If elli is town, TBM is town (you are a sane cop right Elli?).

And if TBM is town, then Zach is lying about being doc, correct? I don't see bodyguard, cop, and doc.

We don't know the reason for the missed kill. Scum could have just been absent, some townie who just hasn't claimed yet, ehhh. But if we lynch zach, he flips scum, we get another investigation result. That gives us 2 confirmed townies in 5 alive. Very good odds. Or he flips town, which I would think means TBM and elli is scum. Or the mod made a crazy setup.

But zach is very scummy anyway. So it's obv just zach and SV. He probably fake claimed to save himself.

[Ellibereth]

I was debating whether to claim this or not.
I think I should.
Cop was 1-shot.

[Jack]

I was debating whether to claim this or not.
I think I should.
Cop was 1-shot.

Yes, ok good.

1-shot cop, bodyguard, doc, seems balanced, yeah?

That gives us:

Confirmed:
Elli
TBM
Zach
Jack

Unconfirmed:
SV
Pom
Vollkan

hmm that's a toughy

I don't think Pom is scummy enough to lynch.

Very weak stance. This was really early in the game yeah? Top of page 3. It would be surprising if someone was scummy enough to lynch.

I think that in a game with unusual mechanics like this everyone would read the rules (equally) carefully, and therefore

not

reading the rules carefully would be a nulltell. Thoughts?

Hmmm. It seems I missed this. I don't think that not-reading the rules is a nulltell. However, I don't think one little thing like this is nearly enough to lynch Pom.

Vote:

Jack for being annoying

Vote:

jason for ... being jason

NonVote:

volkan for being obvtown

Non-ascertained at this point: Anon, Elli, Pom, TBM.

Zach gets half a

Vo

te.

Still on the "not enough to lynch", but at least makes a show of reading her posts. Also, note that he says that he missed this post.

Because, just the opposite of what you said. In a "special" game such as this, I would think everyone would read carefully. Those that don't read, are paying less attention, thus, are scum.

NOT a nulltell.

Missing posts is a scumtell according to SV

Now, I'm convinced you're scum (and you just moved higher on my list).

This is at Jason. I don't believe becoming convinced that someone is scum merely moves them higher on the list. And jason's post wasn't scummy.

STOP LURKING, SCUM

I can't believe this is genuine sentiment.

I was going to say I see no reason for Pom to claim; then I realized we won't be at a point where she's at L-1. So, I see no reason for her to claim, but if y'all think she needs to, I guess, go ahead.

Official Ballot:

1. jasonT1981
2. Anon
3. vollkan
4. Ellibereth
5. Jack
6. Zachrulez
7. Pomegranate
8. TheButtonmen

Pom "isn't scummy enough to lynch" turns into "Pom is 2nd most protown". TBM was a likely scumbuddy of vollkan, but vollkan is at #3 while TBM is at the bottom. Anon is at #2 despite SV never having mentioned him. If jason didn't get lynch he wanted Anon lynched.


mmm I guess SV is kind of high on Pom's list.

Official Ballot:

Anon
jasonT1981
Zachrulez
Ellibereth
Shattered Viewpoint
Jack
vollkan
TheButtonmen

Probably SV and Zach. Possibly Jack after that.

Hmm, Pom is so wishy washy I'd be surprised if she put her scumbuddy at the top of her list. SV's weak stance could be him avoiding a town wagon. Or maybe it is a toughy.

[Jack]

mmm, still really don't like vollkan's stance towards pom:

The push on Pom is making absolutely no sense to me. The only semi-coherent accusation I can find against her is Zach's accusation of "more willing to discuss game theory than actually scum hunting", which on closer inspection I have serious issues with. Four problems, specifically:
1) The "theory" that Pom had discussed at that point was directly relevant to the paying attention issue re: Jack (which, ironically, Zach himself brought up, by saying that "lack of attention to the rules is at least slightly more likely to come from scum" - so it's not only wrong of him to accuse her of this, but downright hypocrticial; that is, unless was expecting to be able to make his theory claim without being challenged on it, which is simply unacceptable)
2) It was page 2. Zach said this was a "good early vote" - fine, but even if we accept that, it doesn't explain the continued suspicion.
3) At that same point in time, other people (including myself) had also joined in the theory debate, but Zach doesn't mention this at all
4) In a later post by Zach he says:

The push on pom "makes absolutely no sense"

after

the votes on her started coming in, but vollk should have mentioned it before, yeah? That's been how he's playing. If the case was terrible he should have attacked it before, perhaps he didn't want to defend his partner. He critiques Zach's case here which fits with his attack on Zach, but doesn't critique Pom herself. Eww, then he makes a point of asking her a bunch of pointless follow up questions.

Zachrulez --I said before that I wasn't going to take apart his reasons because I wanted to see Pom's defence. That will stand.

But does it stand? One gut town thing I see about the post that this is from is that he mentions what people said about Pom about 5 times.

Anon Crappy attack against Pom for her tone in asking a question, and then making a lazy line of attack against me for posting 'fluff' and spamming the thread. 55

Pomegranate

As I said earlier, the theory she discussed early on was game relevant. I don't hold that against her. That said, she has been posting fluff, roughly from Jun 17-21, whereupon, after being attacked, she started to pick up the pace again. That said, it seems that she was also genuinely falling behind, and I've more than once as town tried to maintain a semblance of followiing while desperately needing to acquaint myself with the material - ie. both theoretically and from experience, I don't think losing track of a game is scummy. And Pom made it pretty clear that RL things were causing her trouble. That said, even after she picks up, it is still little to no analysis. @Pom: Roughly what amount of time have you spent on this game so far? I'm giving Pom a tentative 55, subject to increase or decrease depending on the circumstances of her subtantive inactivity.

They are both 55...Anon ends up higher on the list. SV is a 56 for some reason, and ends up 3rd on vollks list. I don't buy that vollkan thought Anon was scummier. This is not how protown vollkan deals with two of the main lynch candidates.

I don't like how jason ranked 2nd on vollk's list either:

jasonT1981 I don't agree with the "unnatural reaction" attack on him, and I don't think his lurking is scummy. That said, he needs to be questioned over the deadline thing and from the points I raise above, he seems to be approaching his lurkiing in a dishonest manner by trying to deflect on to the consensus candidate of Pom. 60

And this is why I went and reread vollk in the first place (+ pom's having SV at the top of her list)

Which means, absent inv-immunity, Button can only be scum in a Elli-Button scumteam. This increases the likelihood of Zach being scum, but also my confusion.

[vollkan]

The push on pom "makes absolutely no sense" after the votes on her started coming in, but vollk should have mentioned it before, yeah? That's been how he's playing. If the case was terrible he should have attacked it before, perhaps he didn't want to defend his partner. He critiques Zach's case here which fits with his attack on Zach, but doesn't critique Pom herself. Eww, then he makes a point of asking her a bunch of pointless follow up questions.

I attacked the wagon when I did simply because at that point in time I realised it was serious and not just an early-game hulking pile of gut that was going to go away. So, I tried to look for any basis for the wagon, and Zach's was all I could find. Your argument assumes that I somehow knew all along why people were voting Pom, which isn't just baseless, but entirely ignores that the beginning of my post there showed that I was completely confused by it.

By the followup questions, you mean my directing Pom to respond to Zach? If so, I hardly see why that is pointless.

But does it stand? One gut town thing I see about the post that this is from is that he mentions what people said about Pom about 5 times.

I don't understand this.

They are both 55...Anon ends up higher on the list. SV is a 56 for some reason, and ends up 3rd on vollks list. I don't buy that vollkan thought Anon was scummier. This is not how protown vollkan deals with two of the main lynch candidates.

Did you bother reading my comments on Anon and Pom? If you had, you might notice that there were about four lines of text where I equivocate on Pom because I'm concerned that she is losing track of the game due to RL. Whereas, my reasoning on Anon had no such qualifications.

I

don't like

how jason ranked 2nd on vollk's list either:

jasonT1981 I don't agree with the "unnatural reaction" attack on him, and I don't think his lurking is scummy. That said, he needs to be questioned over the deadline thing and from the points I raise above, he seems to be approaching his lurkiing in a dishonest manner by trying to deflect on to the consensus candidate of Pom. 60

And this is why I went and reread vollk in the first place (+ pom's having SV at the top of her list)

I suspect, judging from how thorough your reading was in relation to my views on Anon and Pom, that you are querying my Jason attack based on the fact it was two lines long. (I say "suspect", because you haven't actually explained at all what you find scummy about my post)

In that same post, before the rankings, I had two other points on Jason:
1) He had the hypocrisy to attack Anon for lurking when he was also doing it
2) Hasty jump onto the Pom wagon.

[Jack]

blah blah blah my name is vollkan and I'm trying to suggest possible town thinking behind my posts

[Jack]

I know who the lynch for today is. Who do you think the lynch for today is vollk?

[TheButtonmen]

@Elli:

Why use it N1, why us and whos your preferred lynch for the day?

[Ellibereth]

Because I was scared I was going to die. I would prob use 1-shot anything N1.
Us? I know you meant me probs but my first instinct here is slip. >.> GODFATHER!??!?
I investigated you because I thought you had the same alignment as volkan so it was kinda a 2 for 1. And in case you weren't the same align I was less sure of you as town.
Reserved until Pom and SHattered check in.

[vollkan]

blah blah blah my name is vollkan and I'm trying to suggest possible town thinking behind my posts

The working definition of a scumtell is an action that is more likely to be taken by a scum player than a town player. This relies on motivations, as most things in mafia do.

When a player takes an action, evaluating it on the basis of "would this action more likely come from a town player, or a scum player" should be the way that players determine the scumminess of that action.

It is worthwhile to note here that subjectivity plays little to no role in this distinction. POSSIBLE motivations for scum to take a given action are not sufficient to call an action a scum tell. An action is scummy if and only if it can be deemed more likely to come from scum than from town, A perfect example of this occurs in mini 636: Gangland mafia. Kuribo asserts that an action is a scumtell to him, because he can think of A justification for scum to do it, but neglects, as vollkan points out, to show that this reason is likely.

I know who the lynch for today is. Who do you think the lynch for today is vollk?

SV.

And, while this doesn't detract from that position, I am confused in the background about the claim situation. Yes, it's balanced, but it still doesn't explain the lack of NKs.
- If we assume that after the lynch yesterday it was 5:2 (as we can assume it is now), then it makes no sense that scum would simply choose not to kill, because a 4:2 setup means that with a mislynch and a scum NK, the scum would win. So, absent the basically negligible likelihood that scum would simply not NK for the fun of it, I can eliminate that possibility
- Other possibility is that scum failed to submit a NK. The only player who is inactive to the extent that I could see that happening is Pom. This would mean that Pom would have to be a GF that needs to be the kill submitter. Also, less likely, that the scum just forgot or missed the deadline.
- The other possibility, which now looks like it won't be reality, is that Zach's claim is a lie and another

@Elli: Why use it N1, why

us

and whos your preferred lynch for the day?

?????

[Pomegranate]

Except that I am the doc. And I protected Elli.

And Zach is scum.

But that means that Jack is probably his buddy, right?

But what about SV... town I guess, it makes the most sense.

In the meantime-

Unofficial Ballot:
Zach
Jack
Other people

[Ellibereth]

oooooooooooooh counterclaim baby!
Pommy, why'd you protect me who I remember was somewhere midway on D1 ballot?
Zach, same question except me is Jack.

I'm obv heavily leaving Zach scum per why Pom is a power role a few posts up.

[Jack]

I think pom is lying. Scum have to counterclaim in that situation. I guess we'll see though.

Now, who was expecting that cc...

[Ellibereth]

Methinks Shattered is lurking his way through this. Scumz.
Would lynching someone else (shattered) and leaving both claimed docs alive today be a good play?