Kingmaker II-Game Over

[petroleumjelly]

Jelly is back! *celebratory music falters and peters out* So you can stash the party hats.

I see the page

really

hasn't moved since last I left - I thought MoS was exaggerating at Thespival about how little has been posted. I'll be frank in saying I don't feel reading anything to do with this game at the moment, but seeing as deadline is coming I'll try to wrap everything up tomorrow with final prods/pokes/questions.

[Thok]

Official Vote Count

Deadline: July 22, 3 pm PDT (4 days from now)

King petroleumjelly (0):

LOE:Zindaras, ThAdmiral, RafK, Fritzler, Cavane, Yos2

Cavane (0):
Fritzler (5):
KaleiÐoscøpe (1): mnowax, Fritzler
Lowell (0): Yosarian2, mnowax, ThAdmiral
Mastermind of Sin (2):
mnowax (6): Fritzler, Yosarian2, VitaminR, MOS
RafK (0):
ThAdmiral (2): mnowax, VitaminR, Fritzler
Thesp (0): Mastermind of Sin, ThAdmiral, KaleiÐoscøpe, mnowax
Toaster Strudel (1): Fritzler, mnowax
VitaminR (2): Toaster Streudel, mnowax
Yosarian2 (3): Fritzler
Zindaras (0): Yosarian2

Lowell's vote for phoebus in 2563 has not been counted, as phoebus has been replaced for several months.

[Zindaras]

Gone until Sunday.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Leaving tomorrow for the weekend

[petroleumjelly]

Ugh, sorry. Today turned out to be busier than I anticipated - had to have my leg looked at (doctors decided it was a spider bite), and then got caught up in a few games of on-line Settlers. I'll work double-time tomorrow. *sigh*

[Mastermind of Sin]

I told you it was a spider bite...hope it gets better

[Cavane]

Make a paste of water and meat tenderizer and put that on it. It'll sooth it and bring the swelling down a bit.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

When is the deadline?

Also, I'd really like it if you, PJ, eleborated on your choices by now. We're really left in the dark so far.

[petroleumjelly]

Okay. I'm not sure what I'm going to do at the moment, so I suspect I'll be writing up a few posts in succession.

I'll start with results from assignment.

Execute Y > X

1.) petroleumjelly (Thesp > Lowell)
2.) Thesp (Zindie > Lowell)
3.) Lowell (ThAdmiral > Zindie)
4.) Zindaras (ThAdmiral > VitaminR)
5.) ThAdmiral

missing both assigments

6.) VitaminR (RafK > Fritz)
7.) RafK (Fritz > MoS)
8.) Fritzler (TS > MoS) [from post 2554]

missing both assignments

9.) Mastermind of Sin (TS > Cavane)
10.) Toaster Strudel (Fritz, mnowax2)

no preference given,

also nothing on Cavane
11.) Cavane (mnowax2)

missing second assignment

12.) mnowax2 (KScope)

missing second assignment

13.) K-Scope (Yos2 > PJ)
14.) Yosarian2 (Thesp > PJ)

[petroleumjelly]

Actually, now that I'm starting to compile results in a few different manners so I can interpret them, I like this assignment less than before. I can see it being a litmus test for who the scum think they will not be able to push executions on, and conversely who they can easily push executions on (the catch being that scum would only know the opinions from only two people, which is not representative of the entire town). The lack of some people finishing their assignments (as well as Toaster Strudel doing an analysis on Fritzler when she wasn't supposed to) also makes coming up a firm graph difficult.

If anybody's on-line and wants to make suggestions, I'll listen to them, but in the meanwhile I'm going to read over the analyses.

[Mastermind of Sin]

My first suggestion is don't execute Thesp (I forget if he's on the LoE). My second suggestion is...iunno...I'll come up with something eventually.

[petroleumjelly]

Well, I won't be using that LoE. I'm gonna switch it up once I read over everything. That list was only to get people to finish their assignments.

[petroleumjelly]

Twice preferred execution

1.) ThAdmiral (by Lowell and Zindaras)
2.) Toaster Strudel (by Fritzler and MoS)
3.) mnowax2 (by TS and Cavane)
4.) Thesp (by Yos2

***

and PJ

***

)

Once preferred execution

1.) Zindaras (by Thesp

***

, not by Lowell)
2.) RafK (by VitaminR)

***

3.) Yos2 (by K-Scope)

***

4.) Fritz (by RafK, not VitaminR)

Zero preferred execution

1.) PJ (by K-Scope and Yos2)
2.) Lowell (by PJ and Thesp)
3.) MoS (by RafK and Fritz)
4.) Cavane (by MoS)

***

5.) VitaminR (by Zindaras)

***

6.) K-Scope

***

***

Only as a preference; little/no actual suspicion

***

Was only analyzed once

***

Was not analyzed

I would like somebody to analyze K-Scope, if neither of he assigned people are going to do so.

For starters, I will:

Remove all from the LoE.

Now add ThAdmiral, Toaster Strudel, and mnowax2 to the LoE

.

This might change, we'll see where I end up. If there is a mistake, please point it out and I will ask Thok to edit it. I used my own judgment by putting mnowax2 as being preferred by both, even though it's somewhat ambiguous when reading the analyses.

[RafK]

With regards to the preference, I should note that's only my preference out of the two people I was asked to analyze. My actual execution preference remains Yos.

[petroleumjelly]

I'll try to give condensed commentary/questions. Please answer/respond ASAP. I am looking for two things in general – firstly, whether or not I think people's analysis look legitimate or fabricated, and secondly whether or not there are points on other players I hadn't considered. Noting them as I go along.

Note: "No commentary" means that I personally have no comments, not that the player making the analysis did not have commentary.

1.) Yos2 on PJ/Thesp. No commentary.
2.) Lowell on Zindaras. I actually like this analysis – sure, it's a little WIFOM on what SV-scum would do, but it does strike me as being a legitimate thought-process, and I actually agree with Lowell here. If we were dealing with Zindie-SV-scumpair, it

does

seem more likely they would have taken the opportunity to distance. Plus points for Lowell and Zindaras.
3.) TS on Fritzler. No commentary. PPE: See #7.
4.) TS on mnowax2. No commentary (although this post is very confusing for me, and I would like it clarified). Minus points for repeating points on Fritzler on an analysis meant for another player.
5.) MoS on TS. Very succinct and to the point. His questions are very nice and make sense from his analysis. Plus points for MoS, I'll reserve judgment on TS until after I read her responses.
6.) Thesp on Lowell and Zindaras. No commentary.
7.) TS response to MoS. I liked the response to [5], but I don't like the response to [9], as that implies that TS's analysis was just a compilation of who Fritz was suspicious of, and not posts TS was suspicious of Fritz for. Can I get clarification on this, TS?
8.) Yos2 on Thesp. No commentary.
9.) K-Scope on Yos2. This looks like a fairly good analysis, to the point where I feel like I should read back on Yos2 again because from the information in this particular post, it

does

make me wonder. His progression of thoughts looks natural and unforced. Plus points for K-Scope.
10.) VitaminR on RafK. This post actually looks good (and notably better than his posts in Space Monkeys by far). Plus points for VitaminR.
11.) VitaminR on Fritz. Question. I will note that Fritzler calling scumbuddies his scumbuddy is not "too obvious" – he really

has

done that before as scum. I've seen it at least three times, but the most relevant one (in a finished game) is in a newbie game where he was scum with Ibby – Post 195 in Newbie 207, which VitaminR actually played in. Do you remember this game, VitaminR? If so, do you really think it's "too obvious" for Fritzler to call a scum-buddy his scum-buddy?
12.) MoS on Cavane. Looks consistent with prior analysis.
13.) mnowax2. This isn't an analysis, but it pisses me off.
14.) mnowax2 on Yos2. I don't even really consider this an analysis – I cannot tell if mnowax2 even bothered to read through the game, or he figured he better just say something. Worst one so far. Minus points.
15.) mnowax2 on K-Scope (note: guess somebody technically analyzed K-Scope, but it's not a good one). I can't even get a grasp of a real thought process.
16.) Lowell on ThAdmiral. I liked Lowell's first analysis over this one, but nothing scummy here that I see.
17.) RafK on Fritzler. Question: what does "plays the man, not the ball" mean? I can't recall off the top of my head if RafK was actually pro-Fritz earlier, but if so (and I don't see a reason for him to lie about that), then this post looks legit.
18.) RafK on MoS part 1. Biggest note is actually that RafK continually slips comment about Yos2 in this analysis. Almost his entire analysis on MoS hinges on Yos2's alignment, which is rather contradictory to the purpose of having him analyze MoS in particular.
19.) RafK on MoS partr 2. No commentary.
20.) Zindaras on ThAdmiral. The post was a big unorganized (in that it was more of a small game summary than a straight analysis on ThAdmiral), but considering it was all to make points I have nothing against it. I really like the thought-process/explanation in this post. Plus points. My only question is why Zindaras does not want ThAdmiral executed today – his only vote is on Yos2, who I really don't think I'll be executing.
21.) Zindaras on VitaminR. Question: Zindie, what don't you like about my list? Objectively, I think I'm batting better than average, which is pretty much my goal in any given game. Considering there were only three people I was willing to execute, it's a given that there are going to be scum in either the "not strongly considering" and "will not" groups – I would like more explanation on this. This post also makes me want to read over VitR's posts again... blah.
22.) Cavane on mnowax2. Short but looks good.
23.) K-Scope on PJ. I don't particularly enjoy being called scummy, but the reasoning is present, and like before it seems his thoughts changed as he read.

[petroleumjelly]

Hmm. Well, I got distracted by looking at pictures from Thespival on facebook, so I don't expect I'll be doing much more reading tonight (and notably, I probably won't be doing

any

after the HP arrives).

I'll also

Add Fritzler and VitaminR to the LoE

, and will not execute anybody who is not on my LoE, which now has 5 players. Feel free to comment on these 5 (or others) as you wish - I will probably decide on an execution 6 hours before deadline so I avoid computer problems and have time to relocate should they occur.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

PJ, if you got the time for it, could you eleborate a little more of your sudden hunch on SV. Because, for me, it quite looked you pulled it out of thin air with reason 'gut'.

Also, a more eleborated thoughts on LoE would be nice, PJ.

FYI: I'm still preffering a Fritz execution. Mnowax and Yos2 are good executions as well.

[RafK]

"Plays the man, not the ball" means that he attacked the person (SC in that case) rather than responding to the argument.

I was up front that my opinion on MoS (and to a lesser extent, Fritz) depends on my view of other people. My view of VitaminR likewise depends on my view of other people.

The fact that Yosarian2 is not on your LoE, that no reason has been given for this absence and that your http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 426#678426 frankly appears to be designed to mislead- it's very neat but doesn't accurately represent anyone's actual views for execution- is of extreme concern.

vote Yosarian2

incidentally. I'd kind of become MoS there, not bothering to actually vote.

This "analyze two other people" exercise has obliterated all other discussion for the last month, but it doesn't mean all other discussion before the last month is forgotten.

You've accumulated a lot of townie points with me by joining the campaign against SV early and consistently, but this day is sapping them much as my reading of your day 1 kingship did- you've put off and put off giving final opinions and establishing an LoE, the deadline was announced weeks ago and now the LoE finally comes in, explanation-free and Yos-free. This is looking eerily reminscent of the way day 1 played out, with the Rosso execution. Can but hope my earlier belief you were town is correct, that you do have good reasons, and that you do execute a scum- it's not like Yos is the only one out there, after all.

[Thesp]

"Plays the man, not the ball" means that he attacked the person (SC in that case) rather than responding to the argument.

I was up front that my opinion on MoS (and to a lesser extent, Fritz) depends on my view of other people. My view of VitaminR likewise depends on my view of other people.

The fact that Yosarian2 is not on your LoE, that no reason has been given for this absence and that your http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 426#678426 frankly appears to be designed to mislead- it's very neat but doesn't accurately represent anyone's actual views for execution- is of extreme concern.

vote Yosarian2

incidentally. I'd kind of become MoS there, not bothering to actually vote.

This "analyze two other people" exercise has obliterated all other discussion for the last month, but it doesn't mean all other discussion before the last month is forgotten.

You've accumulated a lot of townie points with me by joining the campaign against SV early and consistently, but this day is sapping them much as my reading of your day 1 kingship did- you've put off and put off giving final opinions and establishing an LoE, the deadline was announced weeks ago and now the LoE finally comes in, explanation-free and Yos-free. This is looking eerily reminscent of the way day 1 played out, with the Rosso execution. Can but hope my earlier belief you were town is correct, that you do have good reasons, and that you do execute a scum- it's not like Yos is the only one out there, after all.

This post feels

weird

.

I'm against a Toaster Strudel execution.

[Thok]

Official Vote Count

Deadline: July 22, 3 pm PDT

(about 27 1/2 hours from this post)

King petroleumjelly (0):

LOE: ThAdmiral, Toaster Strudel, mnowax2, Fritzler, VitaminR

Cavane (0):
Fritzler (5):
KaleiÐoscøpe (1): mnowax, Fritzler
Lowell (0): Yosarian2, mnowax, ThAdmiral
Mastermind of Sin (2):
mnowax (6): Fritzler, Yosarian2, VitaminR, MOS
RafK (0): Yosarian2
ThAdmiral (2): mnowax, VitaminR, Fritzler
Thesp (0): Mastermind of Sin, ThAdmiral, KaleiÐoscøpe, mnowax
Toaster Strudel (1): Fritzler, mnowax
VitaminR (2): Toaster Streudel, mnowax
Yosarian2 (4): Fritzler
Zindaras (0): Yosarian2

Sending prods (I know, I know) to Fritzler, Lowell, mnowax, ThAdmiral, and Yosarian2 (everybody who hasn't posted since the 14th.

[petroleumjelly]

You've accumulated a lot of townie points with me by joining the campaign against SV early and consistently, but this day is sapping them much as my reading of your day 1 kingship did- you've put off and put off giving final opinions and establishing an LoE, the deadline was announced weeks ago and now the LoE finally comes in, explanation-free and Yos-free.

This almost makes me want to find you and

slap

you. I've put a hell of a lot of effort into this game – certainly more than I think this game deserves. I didn't ask to be King, and in fact, I would rather that I was not. I was made King at a

very

inconvenient time for me. I was on

vacation

in Canada three weeks ago. This last week I was gone at

Thespival

. That is two weeks I was away without time to put towards this game. During the one week in between those two absences, I made sure to finish my assignment. Since coming back, I've had to spend a half day at the hospital getting my leg looked for what is apparently a spider bite, and I've been very up-front about this. And you are accusing

me

of "stalling"? I asked people to do their assignments on

June 21st

,

one month ago today

, and there are

still

people who have not done it.

So my list is explanation free? How about you try looking through my posts before accusing me of lacking explanations. I feel like I've given more commentary than

any

other player in this entire game, and yet people are saying I am "lacking in commentary".

So my list is Yos-free? Have you been

reading

my posts? I've reread Yos2 at least twice in this game to my recollection, and both times, he did not look like somebody I thought would turn up scum. In other words,

I

think he is town. And I

will not

execute somebody I think is town. Period. It's not my job to execute the person

you

have been going after all game. How do you think I would "look" if I say I think Yos2 is town practically all game, then "last minute" I decide to add him to the list because

you

want me to, then I execute him and he turns up town? Have you even bothered to

think

of that?

In

fact

. I want you to answer that question in your next post. What would you "think" of me if I suddenly added Yos2 to the execution list one day before deadline even after calling him town all game, then I executed him and he turned up town? It seems to me that no matter I do,

if

Yos2 is indeed town, putting him on the list and executing him damns me in your eyes (or at least I would assume this much), putting him on the list and

not

executing him damns me, and

not

putting him on the list damns me. If you're going to think that way, there's something wrong with your thinking and it needs to be altered.

FoS: RafK

, that was an absolutely horrid post.

*breathes out*

Now.

LoE: ThAdmiral, Toaster Strudel, mnowax2, Fritzler, VitaminR

1.) ThAdmiral, Toaster Strudel, and mnowax2 were added because all three of them were the preferred execution by all six people analyzing them. In addition, there was at least one analysis on each of those three players that looked completely legitimate to me – in order, they were Zindaras' analysis on ThAdmiral, Mastermind of Sin's analysis on Toaster Strudel, and Cavane's on mnowax2. In addition, I cannot recall any thoughts which made me think any of the three of these players looked particularly

town

. As such, I plan to read through them all individually before making an execution.

2.) Fritzler is a player I can almost barely get a read on. I pretty much decided to let him do his thing for the first few days. Now that's Day 6, he doesn't look particularly good in my eyes. He pushed CTD for much of the game, and his comments were more unhelpful than usual (often referring back to CTD or how he would end the day faster as King). The biggest thing for me is actually his early claim that he was scum with Pooky, which Fritzler actually

does

do as scum (read: Fritzler does call his scumbuddies his scumbuddies in games).

3.) VitaminR is the person I am

personally

most suspicious of, and this should be clear from my posts throughout the game. You are more than free to read them, because I'm not going to repeat them.

[RafK]

This almost makes me want to find you and

slap

you. I've put a hell of a lot of effort into this game – certainly more than I think this game deserves. I didn't ask to be King, and in fact, I would rather that I was not. I was made King at a

very

inconvenient time for me. I was on

vacation

in Canada three weeks ago. This last week I was gone at

Thespival

. That is two weeks I was away without time to put towards this game. During the one week in between those two absences, I made sure to finish my assignment. Since coming back, I've had to spend a half day at the hospital getting my leg looked for what is apparently a spider bite, and I've been very up-front about this. And you are accusing

me

of "stalling"? I asked people to do their assignments on

June 21st

,

one month ago today

, and there are

still

people who have not done it.

Sure. Nonetheless, you've set up a position where you get to do your execution with almost no time for anyone to respond. Exactly like day 1. You knew you had vacation coming up. And I inherently distrust appeals to emotions, too, especially from players that have reputations as fountains of reason.

So my list is Yos-free? Have you been

reading

my posts? I've reread Yos2 at least twice in this game to my recollection, and both times, he did not look like somebody I thought would turn up scum. In other words,

I

think he is town.

You have said this before, but I don't know understand why.

And I

will not

execute somebody I think is town. Period.

Sure.

It's not my job to execute the person

you

have been going after all game.

It's not my job to just accept your LOE if I don't agree with it, or to accept you as town if you don't do what I think a townie should do.

How do you think I would "look" if I say I think Yos2 is town practically all game, then "last minute" I decide to add him to the list because

you

want me to, then I execute him and he turns up town? Have you even bothered to

think

of that?

1) I don't think he'll turn up town. I don't think there's a chance. And no, I wouldn't think less of you if you executed Yos and turned up town. I said a couple of days ago that the battle lines have been drawn- no-one's being killed which would give away which "side" is scum, until Zindaras executed SV. I accepted that if SV or Yos died and came up town, I would be a very likely execution target.

Considering "what will happen if I execute him and he comes up town?" is dangerous. One of my main issues with the Yos kingship was that he did not execute anyone who he'd been attacking previously, who's death and reveal as town would have made him look bad. He took a target of convenience, and you are drifitng in that direction.

Does that answer your question?

]It seems to me that no matter I do,

if

Yos2 is indeed town, putting him on the list and executing him damns me in your eyes (or at least I would assume this much), putting him on the list and

not

executing him damns me, and

not

putting him on the list damns me. If you're going to think that way, there's something wrong with your thinking and it needs to be altered.

That's an attempt to paint a false dischotomy on me. I never said you executing Yos and him coming up town would damn you in my eyes, and you know it.



[quote="PJ]

1.) ThAdmiral, Toaster Strudel, and mnowax2 were added because all three of them were the preferred execution by all six people analyzing them.

[/quote]

I'll stop you there. This is the thing bugging me most.

All of these "preferred" executions were based on comparisons of two people. Comparisons YOU set. If you had set me to compare Zindaras to Lowell, and I said Zindaras was the towniest, that would make me look like I preferred a Lowell execution. And the failures by one or two people to do any comparisons at all affected it too, anyone who wasn't analyzed couldn't be preferred by two people!

Your use of the results of your "study" this way is extremely dodgy. And you must know that.

I can't say I believe any of ThAdmiral, TS and mnowax2 are horrible choices (or Fritz, for that matter- you can tell that one from my own analysis of Fritz). But this method of selection is terrible, despite the result.

3.) VitaminR is the person I am

personally

most suspicious of, and this should be clear from my posts throughout the game. You are more than free to read them, because I'm not going to repeat them.

We'll agree to disagree there, but it's a natural consequence of a view of the game that sees Yos as town I guess.

[Fritzler]

holllla

[petroleumjelly]

Status update: page 446 of HP. Decided I could check scum.

1.) I had two options when I realized my vacations where going to interfere with this game while I was King.

A.

Not ask for an extension; or

B.

Ask for an extension

Which do you prefer me to do? I did what appears to me to have been the better choice - asking for an extension. And not just any extension - I even asked Thok to extend the deadline a

second

time so I could be sure to give maximum thought to my choice. I gave the town warnings of my absence, and during that time I left assignments which I had figured would be

done

after my first vacation (and this did not happen). Are you really going to try to accuse me of planning my Kingship around myvacations, or vice versa? I've done all reasonably possible with the time I've had.

2.) I don't

care

if you "don't understand why" I think Yos2 is town. I've tried to explain myself on this multiple times - I have done at least two separate analyses on him. This is a feeling on him that has persisted throughout the game. As King, my job is to try to execute scum -

not

to convince

you

why I think somebody is town.

3.)

1) I don't think he'll turn up town. I don't think there's a chance.

And no, I wouldn't think less of you if you executed Yos and turned up town. I said a couple of days ago that the battle lines have been drawn- no-one's being killed which would give away which "side" is scum, until Zindaras executed SV. I accepted that if SV or Yos died and came up town, I would be a very likely execution target.

Considering "what will happen if I execute him and he comes up town?" is dangerous. One of my main issues with the Yos kingship was that he did not execute anyone who he'd been attacking previously, who's death and reveal as town would have made him look bad.

He took a target of convenience, and you are drifitng in that direction.

Does that answer your question?

A.

You don't think there's a chance Yos2 will come up scum? That's pretty damned confident. When did that happen?

B.

I am

insanely

interested that you are painting me as "drifting towards a target of convenience" (which I have highlighted in red). Have you considered what you're trying to get me to do

right now

? Read down to #4 for continued thoughts on this doozie.

C.

No, that does not answer my question.

4.)

And no, I wouldn't think less of you if you executed Yos and turned up town... </snip>

... That's an attempt to paint a false dischotomy on me. I never said you executing Yos and him coming up town would damn you in my eyes, and you know it.

DING DING DING.

Oh really? Sure you technically haven't "said" it

yet

, but

please

do not insult my intelligence. I don't consider myself an overly stupid person.

Here is

exactly

what would go down if I decided to throw Yos2 on my list right now, and execute him, and he turns up town:

1.) PJ threw Rosso on the LoE last minute D1
2.) PJ then misexecuted Rosso on D1
3.) PJ threw Yos2 on the LoE last minute D6
4.) PJ then misexecuted Yos2 D6

I could quill it up and make it look fancy, but that's what it would look like. Repetition of this kind tends to have a powerful effect. But you know what would make it worse?

5.) Not only that, PJ has been calling Yos2 town pretty much all game, but decided to execute Yos2 on a whim of one player

Oh, and guess what that means?

6.) The fact that he did it so last minute makes it look like he "drifting to a target of convenience". He added somebody last minute when it was convenient to do so after being accused of "drifting to a target of convenience."

So you know what? Go soak your head in cabbage water. Your words make it so that whatever I do I'll look bad to you, even if

you

aren't making the connections yet.

1.) RafK says I have been using my vacations as a shield from contributing or allowing people to respond to my LoE. But he does not consider that I have asked Thok to extend the deadline as far as possible (at least twice), nor that I left assignments which were

supposed

to finished by the time I was finished with my first vacation. Had I not done this, there would likely would not have even been an LoE, much less time to respond to one if there were.

2.) RafK agrees that I should not execute somebody if I think they are town. I think Yos2 is town. Nevertheless, RafK wants me to execute Yos2.

There is no way out of this.

3.) RafK is insinuating that I am "drifting towards a target of convenience". He is not realizing that if I were to add Yos2 at this point and to execute him, it would be the ultimate "target of convenience". In other words, no matter who I execute, they will be deemed as "convenient".

There is no way out of this

.

Furthermore, I have made it clear that I am most suspicious of VitaminR, and that is very likely who I will execute - and he has had

plenty

of time to respond to my accusations. My other option is mnowax2, who I have also detailed my complaints about throughout the course of the game. The reason VitaminR is comes before mnowax2 an execution choice is his defense of Dead Rikimaru, which leads to me to believe that VitaminR could be scum both

with

DR/mnowax2 and

without

DR/mnowax2.

All of ThAdmiral, Toaster Strudel, and Fritzler were added because I saw merit in the analyses against them, and I wanted to gauge more than two people's reactions - by placing them on the LoE, the whole town would (supposedly) be able to have their say on them. Which, last I checked, is rather one of the

points

of having an LoE.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

Deadline is today, PJ. Who's getting the hammer?