Mini 803 - Pale Moon Risin' (Over!)

[mykonian]

I'll lay it out entirely, and hopefully this is what Charter was talking about.

I faked being a doublevoter to try and get a reaction.

Porkens made a post that struck me as "A doublevoter? REALLY? Uh-Oh."

I didn't respond.

that is going to cause problems

Porkens avoided confrontation and stepped down, saying "I guess we'll see in the votecounts." This bothered me too.

I voted Porkens for rolefishing.

seems a bit of a weak case, don't you think?

KMD asked if I was serious.

you sounded serious

Plum VOTED me because she disagreed with my vote. I found this scummy.

Weak cases can easily made by scum, and you pushed the one on Porkens quite seriously.

I told KMD it wasn't serious to guage Plum's reaction when she saw that my vote wasn't serious.

A page goes by with little commentary about what just happened and no plum. RVS is dead, not only by my hand but also Zazie, KMD, and Incognito.

I post the truth, that I was SLIGHTLY serious about voting Porkens, and that I told KMD that it wasn't serious at all to gauge Plum's reaction.

again, that is not a case I would be serious about.

Turns out the plan wasn't very helpful all around.

[LlamaFluff]

Very small but there is a SK who can only make day kills, but he is nearly certain town with that kill.

Could you explain this a little differently? I'm having a hard time with it...

Thats me typing faster then my brain is putting things together. The chance that you are town is significantly greater then your chance of being a day-SK which has a significantly greater chance then you being on an opposite scum team which has a significantly greater chance of you being on the same scum team.

Basically Town >> SK >> Other scum > partner scum

[Zilla]

I didn't respond.

that is going to cause problems

Umm, are you even using your brain here?

I voted Porkens for rolefishing.

seems a bit of a weak case, don't you think?

Yes. It was a weak case.

KMD asked if I was serious.

you sounded serious

In what, in the way I said "vote porkens for rolefishing"? How does that sound any more serious than "vote KMD for meta-voting"?

Plum VOTED me because she disagreed with my vote. I found this scummy.

Weak cases can easily made by scum, and you pushed the one on Porkens quite seriously.

HA!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Links or it didn't happen. READ THE THREAD.

I post the truth, that I was SLIGHTLY serious about voting Porkens, and that I told KMD that it wasn't serious at all to gauge Plum's reaction.

again, that is not a case I would be serious about.

Neither was I.

KMD, how are you confused, and WHERE DID I EVER SAY I WAS SERIOUS? And why are you "finding scumbuddies" of mine before I've even flipped? As for the case:

The case on you is your rolefishing vote,

Seriously? First off, even if it was serious, why does your view that I'm wrong mean that I must be scum? Second, why do you think it's serious?

the story change,

Easy case to make, but a bad premise. Hello, Charter.

blaming it on reactions (from Plum),

Lolwut?

calling the vote partially serious,

And this is scummy how?

and OMGUS attacking a few people.

Lolwut? I won't deny I OMGUS'd, but that was the point of being a target in the first place; I wanted to see where opportunistic scum are making their case.

That's most of it. I probably missed some things, but that's the major part of the case.

And you call that case enough to make me obvscum?

I think it's possible Incognito is buddying up to me in an attempt to look town, because yes, he's actually using his head, which apparently a few players aren't capable of here, but at least he's reading the thread and actively hunting scum, and even if his pro-town act is a charade, at least it looks pro-town, which is better than the scumbuckets Mykonian, VP, Llama, and KMD, and loads better than lazy tunneler Charter, and even better than lurker ZazieR and scant-poster Plum.

KMD, answer the same thing VP has to answer: Is Incognito scummy regardless of my alilgnment?

I'm personally not liking ZazieR much either. I didn't like the feel of her post against Mykonian, it felt a little forced. Similarly, VP's case on Mykonian seems mostly parroted from me/Incognito, I don't feel it's sincere.

[Zilla]

Honestly, Porkens won auto-town in my book and, barring other information, I wouldn't consider lynching him until LyLo, when all bets are off.

[Kmd4390]

KMD, how are you confused, and WHERE DID I EVER SAY I WAS SERIOUS? And why are you "finding scumbuddies" of mine before I've even flipped? As for the case:

You said you were "25% serious" and that you told me you weren't serious just for Plum's reaction.

I saw a connection between you and Incog. If you are scum, I'll look at him next.

Seriously? First off, even if it was serious, why does your view that I'm wrong mean that I must be scum? Second, why do you think it's serious?

You said it was serious, or at least partially. It doesn't matter if you are "wrong". It's that you would consider his actions to be fishing when that's obviously not what he was doing.

Easy case to make, but a bad premise. Hello, Charter.

Read my posts. I've already shown this.

Lolwut?

You said you were looking for Plum's reaction.

And this is scummy how?

Well, ignoring the fact that you are now denying the seriousness of it, it's scummy because it's very rare that a vote can have a gray area as far as how serious it is. Either you are jokevoting or your vote is serious.

Lolwut? I won't deny I OMGUS'd, but that was the point of being a target in the first place; I wanted to see where opportunistic scum are making their case.

Looking for reactions isn't a reason to be scummy. Of course people will jump on you for being scummy. Doesn't make them all scum.

And you call that case enough to make me obvscum?

Yes.

I think it's possible Incognito is buddying up to me in an attempt to look town, because yes, he's actually using his head, which apparently a few players aren't capable of here, but at least he's reading the thread and actively hunting scum, and even if his pro-town act is a charade, at least it looks pro-town, which is better than the scumbuckets Mykonian, VP, Llama, and KMD, and loads better than lazy tunneler Charter, and even better than lurker ZazieR and scant-poster Plum.

And you think Incog is scum who is buddying up or town who is playing well? Pick one.

KMD, answer the same thing VP has to answer: Is Incognito scummy regardless of my alilgnment?

I don't have a case on Incog. So I have to say no. He really isn't.

[Zilla]

You said you were "25% serious" and that you told me you weren't serious just for Plum's reaction.

It looks like we're getting somewhere, now can you tell me how much is in 100%? And can you tell me how much 25% is?

I saw a connection between you and Incog. If you are scum, I'll look at him next.

Fair enough.

Seriously? First off, even if it was serious, why does your view that I'm wrong mean that I must be scum? Second, why do you think it's serious?

You said it was serious, or at least partially.

At the very least, you can admit that you see I was only PARTIALLY serious.

It doesn't matter if you are "wrong". It's that you would consider his actions to be fishing when that's obviously not what he was doing.

this is scummy how?

Easy case to make, but a bad premise. Hello, Charter.

Read my posts. I've already shown this.

Read mine, I've alraedy answered it as well. As far as I'm concerned, it's the opposition's turn.

Lolwut?

You said you were looking for Plum's reaction.

Yet again, this is scummy how?

And this is scummy how?

Well, ignoring the fact that you are now denying the seriousness of it, it's scummy because it's very rare that a vote can have a gray area as far as how serious it is. Either you are jokevoting or your vote is serious.

Even you have to know how weak this is, which makes me wonder why you're still pushing it.

Lolwut? I won't deny I OMGUS'd, but that was the point of being a target in the first place; I wanted to see where opportunistic scum are making their case.

Looking for reactions isn't a reason to be scummy. Of course people will jump on you for being scummy. Doesn't make them all scum.

Come on, what are you doing here? This isn't even an accusation. Are you saying scum won't jump on easy prey? If you are, then we must agree to disagree. If you're saying I think everyone who jumped on my case is scum, you haven't been reading the thread and are reciting Charter/VP's mantra that I'm blindly OMGUS-ing everywhere.

And you call that case enough to make me obvscum?

Yes.

And you call Mykonian's case weak?

I think it's possible Incognito is buddying up to me in an attempt to look town, because yes, he's actually using his head, which apparently a few players aren't capable of here, but at least he's reading the thread and actively hunting scum, and even if his pro-town act is a charade, at least it looks pro-town, which is better than the scumbuckets Mykonian, VP, Llama, and KMD, and loads better than lazy tunneler Charter, and even better than lurker ZazieR and scant-poster Plum.

And you think Incog is scum who is buddying up or town who is playing well? Pick one.

Here we go again. I'm saying it's still possible for him to be scum. I personally believe he's town playing well.

KMD, answer the same thing VP has to answer: Is Incognito scummy regardless of my alilgnment?

I don't have a case on Incog. So I have to say no. He really isn't.

Then what's the point of pairing him with me?

[Zilla]

Llama, want to comment on something besides obvtown Porkens?

[charter]

[quote="Zilla"]I think it's possible Incognito is buddying up to me in an attempt to look town, because yes, he's actually using his head, which apparently a few players aren't capable of here, but at least he's reading the thread and actively hunting scum, and even if his pro-town act is a charade, at least it looks pro-town, which is better than the scumbuckets Mykonian, VP, Llama, and KMD, and loads better than lazy tunneler Charter, and even better than lurker ZazieR and scant-poster Plum.[quote]
Zilla has a scum theory for 7 people. Discounting herself, and afatchic, and Porkens, that leaves us with camn. camn just moved up in scumminess.

Lynch Zilla.

[charter]

Hmm, I missed the last bit of the last page. Interesting theory Kmd. Incog gets a special mention in Zilla's recent post where she basically accuses everyone. Very interesting.

[Porkens]

I'm personally not liking ZazieR much either. I didn't like the feel of her post against Mykonian, it felt a little forced. Similarly, VP's case on Mykonian seems mostly parroted from me/Incognito, I don't feel it's sincere.

How sure are you that Mykon is scum?

[LlamaFluff]

I say we lynch mykonian today, and then you can all consider how awesome my case on Zilla is tomorrow.

Do you think zilla is scum?

Llama, want to comment on something besides obvtown Porkens?

Not quite yet, also if people are serious about lynching someone I wont let get lynched, its not a bad path. I have a few people I want to hear something from. As stuff comes together you will know though.

[VP Baltar]

Do you think zilla is scum?

I'm inclined to think so, but I feel better about mykonian. I'm trying not to be swayed by Zilla's excessive ranting and raving, since that seems to be her MO.

[mykonian]

Do you think zilla is scum?

I'm inclined to think so, but I feel better about mykonian. I'm trying not to be swayed by Zilla's excessive ranting and raving, since that seems to be her MO.

MO?

I hoped to explain this with that meta...

[VP Baltar]

Modus operandi

[Incognito]

Off-topic banter:

I've decided that I'd probably pay really good money to see Zilla beating her chest the way charter suggested.


Anywho, with the speed this thread is moving and the amount of back-and-forths going on, I've decided it would probably be better for me to get my thoughts down about everyone in a player-by-player fashion and then go from there. Using player list from top to bottom.

Kmd4390:

I'm still not really sure what to think of him at this time. I've only played with him in one game which happened nearly a year ago back when he was new to the site, but I don't recall him being as tunnel-visioned in that game as he has been here (he was town there). I'm really not a fan of his recent accusation that I'm scum if Zilla is scum because I really can't see how in post 248 he could interpret my post 240 as a Zilla-scum buddy who's trying to bring down the attack against her. I was pretty clearly arguing that with the constant back-and-forths of the same point being argued over and over again between charter and Zilla, the thread is likely becoming more and more unreadable which actually

hurts

town rather than helps it. And his interpretation of Zilla's quote is bizarre as well, along with his new stance on page 11 where he argues that he doesn't even find me scummy at all. So why did you pair Zilla and I together? How did you interpret my posts early in the game and on page 10 as soft questions and then protection of a Zilla-scum buddy?

ZazieR and camn:

I know both of you have a lot more experience playing with Kmd than I do -- what's your read of him so far?

ZazieR:

I have almost no read of her so far, which probably isn't a good thing given we're now on page 11. I'd like for her to elaborate further on her stance of Porkens since I really don't understand her logic as to why she would support a Porkens-lynch tomorrow if he happens to be a one-shot vig. Interestingly, I thought I saw a very

minor

town tell from her confirmation post where she claimed that she had to get her gun -- I don't know if she was pseudo-claiming scum but if she was, I'd see this as a minor town-tell considering the fact that our game has

werewolves

in it as opposed to

mafia

, which I would assume use a different kill method than guns, and I would expect that if she was scum, she would be more likely to realize this than if she was town confirming. ZazieR, comments?

Kmd:

your read of ZazieR so far?

Plum:

Needs to post more. I've found myself agreeing with some of her stances particularly those on mykonian and some of her comments on LlamaFluff which could suggest that she might be thinking along the same lines as me but with only 4 really long posts in the thread, I'm finding myself having a difficult time reading her. I think if mykonian flips scum though, she's almost certainly town -- I can't see a Plum-scum (heh, that rhymes) flipping from one wagon (the Zilla one) to another one (the mykonian one, which put him at L-1) if she was scum with him, especially since just prior to this, Porkens ended up killing afatchic-scum.

LlamaFluff:

A lot of his posts have been giving me the hives actually. I already commented on his early posts where he seemed to be giving mykonian some flak but then suddenly went to being a mykonian-fanboy just because "he was thinking the same thing about Zilla" <-- this switch just doesn't feel natural to me. I'd think an LF-town might show more leeriness towards mykonian. Also his recent post about Porkens strikes me as really weird too -- he seems to have a lot of negative to say about the claim but then concludes that he "sees basically no was Porkens is scum". Also, since his unvote of Zilla, he hasn't really commented on anyone or anything aside from Porkens citing that he'd like to see more from some other people. There's plenty of stuff going on right now; any thoughts on that?

Porkens:

as per my previous post, I'm thinking this guy's town. 'nuff said for now. Porkens, can you elaborate more on the connection you see between VP Baltar and LlamaFluff?

camn:

Another one who needs to post more, but I'm leaning town on her right now too. I've played a number of games with her before, modded her before, hydra-ed with her before, and she seems to be thinking in a town frame of mind. Her paranoia about me seems genuine too.

mykonian:

I think all of the comments I've said about him are there for all to see. I still see myself supporting his lynch.

charter:

Another Zilla-tunneler, but if I'm not mistaken, he has a tendency to do this as town (I've played with him previously in two separate games where he's been town, though I've never seen him as scum). Oddly, I find his tunneling on Zilla to be slightly more town-ish than anyone else's at this time.

Zilla:

I'm still thinking that she's likely town for the reasons I mentioned previously (speed of wagon on her, the sheer level of Zilla-hate, play seems more sloppy and slightly poorly thought out as opposed to scummy). I wouldn't support her lynch today.

VP Baltar:

Not crazy about his mykonian <-> Zilla scum buddy theory. VP, no matter what you might think about the quality level of players in this town, I can almost GUARANTEE you that we're not owning this game so hard where BOTH of the leading wagons have been on scum -- that's just simply probability and math. Aside from that, I dislike forming connections between people until after alignment flips. VP's play here doesn't really remind me of the play I saw from a him-scum in NG 696, but I'm aware of the fact that he might have improved since then. I do find it scummy though to suggest that both of the leading wagons might be on scum since that kind of position allows for a hypo-scum to easily sway from one wagon to the next.



This is really damn long. I blame boredom at work.

vote: LlamaFluff

for a cool counter-wagon. Vote can easily go back to mykonian, obviously, but I'm curious to see what this might do.

mykonian, VP, and KMD: what's your read of LF?

Also, here's a cool aside about this game: does anyone else find it weird that the people who have been attacking Zilla have pretty much ONLY been attacking Zilla while the people who have been after mykonian have also been commenting on other people as well?

[mykonian]

I think I have talked about VP too, and Porkens, and zazie. I think you are mostly talking about charter. He has almost said nothing, except about me and zilla

wait, that is not only zilla... and further, I'm still looking for the case on me, because I think a delayed meta-vote is not a scumtell, and I would like someone to explain that to me.

And incog, till now, nothing really stood out about Llama, so I have no real read on him (call us scumbuddies...), apart from what Llama needed to say about porkens (what had been said already), and nothing more about the play in that post...

[mykonian]

and how many posts of me were only about zilla? I think only in the start. I have a nice place for my vote, that is nearly undefendable now anymore, so I have to be careful about that, but there is little talking about it.

[VP Baltar]

Further, you indeed pressured me, because several people think it is a scumtell to vote late! Can you explain to me why that is a scumtell?

Looking over the time between when you first stated you found Zilla suspicious and when you placed your vote, I don't see a lot of pressure on you about hurrying up and voting.

I was indeed questioning you, but I was interested in how you appeared to be testing the waters on my wagon by launching from a point posted by Porkens, not so much about whether you were voting or not.

Also, in that 24hr period between your suspicion and vote, most of the posts are questioning Zilla. You only had two votes during that period (Incog and Zilla)and it really doesn't look like you were under an extreme amount of pressure to vote. Perhaps you perceived it that way, but it doesn't seem so when I was reading again.

I have a few people I want to hear something from.

Such as who? and what? perhaps you could ask them directly if they aren't checking in so we can move the game along.

I can almost GUARANTEE you that we're not owning this game so hard where BOTH of the leading wagons have been on scum -- that's just simply probability and math.

Yeah, it might not be true, and statistically speaking is bloody unlikely. What did you think about their reasons for voting each other, however? I also wanted to try something different this game and start thinking a bit more about scum teams rather than individual scum. I saw a connection and decided to point it out 1) because it could be true, and 2) it would be a good way to gauge their reactions and those of othe players.

I dislike forming connections between people until after alignment flips

Really? You seem to be doing it when you are asking specific people for opinions on other specific players. I'm just being much more explicit about it. Obviously it iss not guaranteed that Zilla is scum if mykon flips, but let me ask you this, based on the case I made would you be suspicious of her if he did flip scum?

I do find it scummy though to suggest that both of the leading wagons might be on scum since that kind of position allows for a hypo-scum to easily sway from one wagon to the next.

Does that appear to be what I am doing? I haven't moved my vote from mykon since I placed it...which was at a time when the Zilla wagon was at 4 votes and going strong, while the mykon wagon was at 2 and getting little attention.

what's your read of LF?

I can't say I have a strong read on him one way or another. I think you made some decent points in your case, particularly about the not contributing since he unvoted Zilla. I think if he has anything significant to say (which he claims he does) then he needs to ask his questions and then say it instead of trying to be so mysterious.

Also, I think some people in this game are a bit more suspicious of him because they have played with him before and, from what I understand, his scum game is very pro-town. I don't have a meta on him at all, so I'm not really influenced by what I would call the 'paranoia' some other people might feel.

[Incognito]

mykonian, you're right in that you've done the Zilla-focusing to a lesser degree than charter and Kmd because I have noticed you commenting on others. As for why I found your delayed vote scummy, I think I explained that previously also back in my 12th post. I don't know if you're requesting other people to explain this to you or not -- admittedly, I know you responded to my point about you being a new meta-lover, and I haven't had the chance to look through the games you cited, but I will get around to that eventually. The building up to the vote still strikes me as scummy though for the reasons I previously listed.

Yeah, it might not be true, and statistically speaking is bloody unlikely. What did you think about their reasons for voting each other, however?

I thought mykonian's eventual reason was bad, as I mentioned previously. Zilla's reason for voting mykonian struck me as being more sound, actually, since I agree that it really did appear as though mykonian was kinda sitting the fence a bit at first with regards to what he thought about Zilla.

I dislike forming connections between people until after alignment flips

Really? You seem to be doing it when you are asking specific people for opinions on other specific players. I'm just being much more explicit about it. Obviously it iss not guaranteed that Zilla is scum if mykon flips, but let me ask you this, based on the case I made would you be suspicious of her if he did flip scum?

In response to the first part of this, perhaps I phrased that poorly -- I think making an attempt to think about connections is fine, but I felt like the way you built an entire case against mykonian under the supposition that Zilla was scum was off. I, on the other hand, have a list of reads of people who I'm finding scummy and am asking those people to formulate opinions about each other. I have in no way stated that these people are likely or even definitely scum with one another like you or Kmd have done in the past.

If mykonian flips scum, I am inclined to believe that Zilla is even more likely to be town. Again, I highly highly doubt that we're doing

so

well here that we have two competing wagons on scum, and I just don't see the connection between them -- they've been anti-each other since pretty much the start of the game.

I do find it scummy though to suggest that both of the leading wagons might be on scum since that kind of position allows for a hypo-scum to easily sway from one wagon to the next.

Does that appear to be what I am doing? I haven't moved my vote from mykon since I placed it...which was at a time when the Zilla wagon was at 4 votes and going strong, while the mykon wagon was at 2 and getting little attention.

Sure, you haven't ever switched your vote to the Zilla-wagon, but you mentioned that you support both cases on both people and then went on to come to the conclusion that they're likely scum together when I think that really seems like an unlikely scenario. Doesn't that suggest that you support both of their lynches today? I don't see what you're arguing here.

Also, I think some people in this game are a bit more suspicious of him because they have played with him before and, from what I understand, his scum game is very pro-town.

The people who have commented on LF have mentioned nothing about "him appearing very pro-town here therefore he's likely scum". You yourself just said that I raised some decent points against him -- why do you believe people are suspicious of him here because he appears pro-town here?

[Incognito]

Oh and VP: whether or not mykonian only had two votes at that time compared to Zilla's four votes doesn't really matter -- I think by that time when you made your case against the two of them, it seemed pretty evident judging by the people who were making their feelings heard that mykonian was someone who had the potential to receive a good deal of attention.

[mykonian]

Incog, do you agree, that without listening to zilla saying "I do this every time", that her play is a little doubtful? She has had the most weak cases of us all.

[Incognito]

Yes, like I've said, I do think her play is a bit off-kilter here, but I don't think she's scum for it. For example this is the type of post I wouldn't expect to come from scum and it only helps reaffirm my town read of her:

Wow, look what that made me miss!

This changes things slightly: namely my accusations between KMD and Llama. I'm going to search for any relevence afatchic had and what people said about her.

Porkens claims dayvig? Awesome job anyhow! (ducks incoming votes for commenting on what just happened).

First person to pick out Porkens' dayvig soft claim AND to announce it in-thread when she was at L-2 when that could have easily gotten another 2 people to vote her for a lynch after an afatchic-scum just got shot? Maybe I'm being naive, and she could be EXTREMELY ballsy scum, but I doubt that.

[mykonian]

So, her game is a little weird. She defends it with "I do that as town too", just as in Merrin. In her town games, we don't see such play. Is it so weird to see me vote her for that?

Ballsy does tell what she is, she is not scared to distance hard, etc, as I know her.

but could you explain what the danger in the above situation was? Tell me not that we should be scared for rolefishing-votes.

[SpyreX]

Man, thats a lot of words

Kmd4390 (0):
Zazier (0):
Plum (0):
Llamafluff (1): Incognito
Porkens (0):
camn (0):

Mykonian (4): Zilla, VP Baltar, camn, Plum

charter (0):
Incognito (0):
Zilla (3): Charter, Kmd4390, Mykonian
VP Baltar (0):

With 11 alive, it is 6 to lynch.

Deadline: Thursday June 11th 10:30 PST

[Incognito]

mykonian, can you point to which posts of Zilla's she defends herself in that way? I can't seem to find them, so I can't offer comment.

As for what the danger was in the above situation you have this:

-~- Zilla already had an L-1 maybe L-2 wagon on her and was receiving considerable flak.
-~- Porkens soft-claims vig by writing ":blam:" and nobody comments on this until Zilla brings it forward in the above-mentioned quote that I pulled up.
-~- I

think

calling attention to a soft-claim is something that a lot of people would consider scummy, so if we're dealing with a single scum group here (and afatchic's already dead), and Zilla was already at L-2, she'd have to be quite a courageous scum to point out such a soft-claim when a hypo-her-scum might expect people to use that as even further justification to vote for her to a lynch. A hypo-her scum might even think that exposing such a soft-claim might sell the wagon to people who were still undecided about her, which would be straight scum suicide especially considering the fact that one scum had already been lost (in afatchic). So, I think her pointing out the soft-claim is more justification for her being town.

Obviously this is all subject to WIFOM but so are most other things that people consider to be town-tells.