[OLD] Open/Semi-Open Design Challenge

[mith]

I'll be posting thoughts on setups as I have time...

Spoiler: shaft.ed

For an 8 player set up what about:

Mafia Goon
Mafia Lover
Town Lover
4 Townies
Jester

Even with the Jester (which we don't have; we do have blanks, though we won't be including setups in the rulebook itself which make use of them), it seems that if the Town Lover and Jester both claim, it's optimal for the Mafia Lover to claim as well - town threatens to lynch one at random, and either the Mafia Lover will die anyway, or the Jester is lynched which loses the game for both Mafia and Town. So the Jester shouldn't claim after all.

Spoiler: Voidedmafia

1 Mafia Doctor
1 Town Vigilante
1-2 Mafia Goons
8-9 VTs

Think I lean toward 10:3 as well; probably still optimal for the Vig to always shoot, so it's effectively double-day while he lives.

Spoiler: Voidedmafia

1 Innocent Child
1 Bodyguard
2 Mafia Goons
4 VTs

hmmm...maybe this kind of night WIFOM-style game requires more than just 4 VTs.

I don't think there's really any WIFOM here. There's no reason I can think of for the Bodyguard not to protect an outed IC, in which case the Mafia just shoot there twice and be done with it; it's not like with the Doctor where the Mafia lose a kill over it. This also shouldn't be an even setup, town will have to no lynch at some point.

Spoiler: Voidedmafia

1 Beloved Princess/Innocent Child
1 Bodyguard
1 Mafia Suicide Bomber
1 Goon
4 or 6 VTs

Spoiler: BBmolla

In Another Castle

1 Mafia Goon
1 Mafia Suicide Bomber
3 Vanilla Townies
1 Town Bodygaurd
2 - Choose from

• [Town Beloved Princess, Vanilla Townie]
  
• [Town Lover, Town Lover]

I prefer BBmolla's version, though Beloved Princess and Lovers don't punish the town for their demise if the count is even (since they would have to no lynch at some point anyway). Want to think on this some more.

I also feel like there's a 13-player Pick Your Assassin

Agreed, someone work on this.

Mafia Silencer is the "you can choose one player who is unable to speak the following day" variant, which we are strongly considering dropping. But if someone comes up with a good use for it...

Spoiler: BBmolla

Son of the Cop

If the miller dies, the cop may not investigate at night anymore.

2 Mafia Goons
1 Town Cop
1 Town Miller
5 Vanilla Town

Son of the Cop

If the miller dies, the cop may not investigate at night anymore.

1 Mafia Rolecop
1 Mafia Goon
1 Town Cop
1 Town Miller
5 Vanilla Town

Miller is an auto-claim; it *might* present an interesting choice for the scum whether to counter or not, but I don't think they can, in which case the Miller may as well be an Innocent Child. If they counter and one is lynched at random, you have a 50% shot at the town being in amazing shape (scum probably has to try to pick off the Cop on no info, if they miss it's really bad), and a 50% shot at the Miller being lynched followed by scum the next day, down to 1:4 possibly with the Cop still alive to claim and act as the IC.

This is the challenge with the Miller, avoiding a situation where he won't be an uncountered claim day 1. Probably the only reasonable way to do it is make it semi-open. Something like:

Ignore all that; reading is important... Like the addition of the Mafia Rolecop in the revised setup.

K9

1 Mafia Tracker <-- Both to make use of it again and because I know what the art is <_<
1 Town Cop
5 Vanilla Town
2 Choose:

• Mafia Godfather, Vanilla Town
  
• Mafia Goon, Town Miller

Spoiler: BBmolla

Classic Rivals

1 Mafia Ninja
1 Mafia Godfather
1 Mafia Doctor
1 Town Cop
1 Town Tracker
1 Town Vig
6 Vanilla Town

Like this one just fine.

[mith]

Actually, the interesting thing about the K9 setup above is that it is optimal for the Mafia Tracker to claim Miller *some* of the time when partnered with a Godfather (if he claims Miller 100%, then it's a 50-50 for lynching Miller claims and town should probably just do that - hitting Miller isn't the worst thing in the world because it confirms to the Cop that there is no GF; if he never claims Miller, a claimed Miller is again basically an IC). However, FTF the Tracker doesn't know which card his partner got!

[T-Bone]

I like Molla's Classic Rivals set-up.

[Aronis]

Setup 1 - 8p

x2 Mafia Goon
x4 Town Vanilla
x1 Town CPR Doctor[Kills patient, unless patient is going to die]
x1 Innocent Child[Confirmed at the start of the day]

Should give the Doctor and Mafia an interesting decision. Another thing I like is that if the CPR Doctor doesn't protect the IC, they could essentially use their shot as a vig kill and bring the amount of players down to five for LyLo.

Setup 2 - 8p

x1 Mafia Ninja
x1 Mafia Strongman
x3 Vanilla Town
x1 Town Doctor
x1 Town Tracker
x1 Town 1-shot Vig

Town has 1-shot Vig + whatever the scum don't nullify when killing.

Setup 3 - 13p

x2 Mafia Goon
x1 Mafia Silencer
x6 Vanilla Town
x1 Town Cop
x1 Town Miller[recieves VT PM]
x1 Town Roleblocker
x1 Town Bodyguard

Idk what is considered balanced with silencer, I had considered giving scum an extra PR [1/2-shot Rolecop/blocker?].

Setup 4 - 11-13p

x2 Mafia Goon
x1 Mafia Doctor
x5-7 Town Vanilla
x1 Town Doctor
x2 Town Vigilante

Wasn't sure whether to make it 11 or 13 players. Should have a fair amount of killing though.

[Prof Fridays]

Your Setup 1 is cool, Aronis, I like the idea of building a setup around a unique role. Setup 2 is nice as a micro version of BBMolla's 12-player. Not sure about Setup 3, but would Setup 4 work well with a 1-shot BP SK instead of a second town vig? Maybe with all the killing it would be too easy for the SK? Not sure. Perhaps get rid of the BP and make it more difficult for him? Although, he could be found out more easily if he gets shot and town knows who their vig and doctor targeted.

[shaft.ed]

2 x Goon
1 Doctor
1 Beloved Princess
1 Vengeful Townie
3 x VT

[AGar]

the Beloved Princess is the version that causes the next day to be skipped if lynched

there's another version of beloved princess?

Some beloved princesses only trigger on their lynch, some trigger on any death.

[Voidedmafia]

Cover Me

3 Mafia Goons
1 Bulletproof Bodyguard
1 Backup Bulletproof Bodyguard
1 Hider
6-7 Vanilla Townies

- Bodyguard cannot be directly killed by the Mafia
- If the Hider hides with the Bodyguard and the Bodyguard dies using its protect, the Hider dies as well

Not sure about this balance-wise, so if anyone could point out any problems that would be great. I have quite a few adjustments in mind if needed.

I think making the BP 1-shot would do better for balance (and I don't think the backup should have it at all). Might be a couple more tweaks needed, but I currently don't see them.

I don't think there's really any WIFOM here. There's no reason I can think of for the Bodyguard not to protect an outed IC, in which case the Mafia just shoot there twice and be done with it; it's not like with the Doctor where the Mafia lose a kill over it. This also shouldn't be an even setup, town will have to no lynch at some point.

...Oh, yeah, they will. Still, the point of the setup is to include a more likely target to be killed over others from the outset, with the BG and the Mafia trying to outguess if they'll protect said person. But I don't want to include another PR if at all possible, or something like that. Then it just feels a little too role-heavy.

Mafia Silencer is the "you can choose one player who is unable to speak the following day" variant, which we are strongly considering dropping. But if someone comes up with a good use for it...

Including or excluding a vote?

It could work in a FtF game, but I'm not entirely sure what can go around it.

1 Mafia Silencer
1 Goon
1 doctor
1 Tracker
1 Rolecop
7 VTs?

Both to make use of it again and because I know what the art is

Art of what? Tracking?

I like the K9 setup, btw.

Setup 1 - 8p
x2 Mafia Goon
x4 Town Vanilla
x1 Town CPR Doctor[Kills patient, unless patient is going to die]
x1 Innocent Child[Confirmed at the start of the day]

Should give the Doctor and Mafia an interesting decision. Another thing I like is that if the CPR Doctor doesn't protect the IC, they could essentially use their shot as a vig kill and bring the amount of players down to five for LyLo.

I like this over the 8P IC/BG game I designed, honestly

2 x Goon
1 Doctor
1 Beloved Princess
1 Vengeful Townie
3 x VT

Not bad, either.

[mith]

I don't think there's really any WIFOM here. There's no reason I can think of for the Bodyguard not to protect an outed IC, in which case the Mafia just shoot there twice and be done with it; it's not like with the Doctor where the Mafia lose a kill over it. This also shouldn't be an even setup, town will have to no lynch at some point.

...Oh, yeah, they will. Still, the point of the setup is to include a more likely target to be killed over others from the outset, with the BG and the Mafia trying to outguess if they'll protect said person. But I don't want to include another PR if at all possible, or something like that. Then it just feels a little too role-heavy.

Yeah, I get the intent, I just don't see any reason for the Bodyguard to not protect the IC. Even if the Bodyguard were out himself and confirmed by lack of counterclaim and believed himself to be the stronger player... the Mafia could just kill him directly.

Watcher is a better interaction with the IC, though I find that pairing may be overpowered.

Mafia Silencer is the "you can choose one player who is unable to speak the following day" variant, which we are strongly considering dropping. But if someone comes up with a good use for it...

Including or excluding a vote?

I don't think we actually came to an official decision on that, so in the event that it's used, whatever works best for the setup that uses it?

It actually wouldn't be that bad to prevent a follow-the-cop type game. Can't kill the cop because he's protected? Silence him instead! (That would only work with the non-voting version, of course.)

[BBmolla]

iller is an auto-claim; it *might* present an interesting choice for the scum whether to counter or not, but I don't think they can, in which case the Miller may as well be an Innocent Child. If they counter and one is lynched at random, you have a 50% shot at the town being in amazing shape (scum probably has to try to pick off the Cop on no info, if they miss it's really bad), and a 50% shot at the Miller being lynched followed by scum the next day, down to 1:4 possibly with the Cop still alive to claim and act as the IC.

This is the challenge with the Miller, avoiding a situation where he won't be an uncountered claim day 1. Probably the only reasonable way to do it is make it semi-open. Something like:

?

Read the italics, if the miller dies, the cop can't investigate anymore. The Miller is a cop enabler. AKA, you claim, cop is boned.

[BBmolla]

x1 Town Miller[recieves VT PM]

Stuff like this won't work btw.

[mith]

iller is an auto-claim; it *might* present an interesting choice for the scum whether to counter or not, but I don't think they can, in which case the Miller may as well be an Innocent Child. If they counter and one is lynched at random, you have a 50% shot at the town being in amazing shape (scum probably has to try to pick off the Cop on no info, if they miss it's really bad), and a 50% shot at the Miller being lynched followed by scum the next day, down to 1:4 possibly with the Cop still alive to claim and act as the IC.

This is the challenge with the Miller, avoiding a situation where he won't be an uncountered claim day 1. Probably the only reasonable way to do it is make it semi-open. Something like:

?

Read the italics, if the miller dies, the cop can't investigate anymore. The Miller is a cop enabler. AKA, you claim, cop is boned.

Right right right. Was just reading roles, not extra rules because we're trying to limit those.

Miller claiming D2 is probably optimal in that case, but it's less obvious. (Assuming Cop still gets N2 result, since Miller isn't dead yet. If neither Cop or Miller get hit randomly by the Mafia or lynch D/N1, Mafia seems to be in trouble whatever they do.)

[BBmolla]

Just wanted to throw in my support for BBMolla's 12-player set-up. Elegant is a good word for it. I wonder if adding the condition of the Miller/Cop tie in the 9-player set-up is good for the sake of simplicity/clarity? I feel like for a card-version of the game, each role card needs to function the same. I feel like if I buy a card-version of mafia, I'm going to want to introduce it to my group of friends, who play party games similar to mafia, but aren't involved in forum mafia and are thus less familiar with its nuances. Basically, added complexity can needlessly limit your potential player pool, if that makes sense.

Perhaps I'm a bit off-base and don't fully understand the project?

While I agree, I just used the setup with the miller a couple nights ago when introducing some players. I just tried to rationalize it by saying the miller was the son of the cop, so if he dies the cop quits his job out of grief, for how could he possibly think his son was mafia.

1. What does this mean?

It means that the Innocent Child is not revealed at start, instead may reveal themselves as IC at any time.

@mith: Claiming d2 is probably optimal yeah.
I know extra rules are bleh, but this has worked really well in practice.

[BBmolla]

For K9, mafia get really screwed in the setup with Miller. Tracker gets counter claimed, ensuring his demise one night or the next. Wouldn't it be better if it were flipped like this:

K9

1 Mafia Tracker <-- Both to make use of it again and because I know what the art is <_<
1 Town Cop
5 Vanilla Town
2 Choose:

• Mafia Goon, Vanilla Town
  
• Mafia Godfather, Town Miller

In the second setup in this case, Tracker is probably boned, but Mafia aren't as screwed cause they have Godfather.

Miller always claims d1 obviously, which is just how Miller is going to be in base setups.

Unless I'm misunderstanding optimal strategy

[Aronis]

Your Setup 1 is cool, Aronis, I like the idea of building a setup around a unique role. Setup 2 is nice as a micro version of BBMolla's 12-player. Not sure about Setup 3, but would Setup 4 work well with a 1-shot BP SK instead of a second town vig? Maybe with all the killing it would be too easy for the SK? Not sure. Perhaps get rid of the BP and make it more difficult for him? Although, he could be found out more easily if he gets shot and town knows who their vig and doctor targeted.

I think I might like this better actually. Idk about the BP, it just depends.

Setup 4 - 11-13p: Revised

x2 Mafia Goon
x1 Mafia Doctor
x7 Town Vanilla
x1 Town Doctor
x1 Town Vigilante
x1 1-shot Bulletproof[?] Serial Killer

x1 Town Miller[recieves VT PM]

Stuff like this won't work btw.

Oh. I'll just scratch the setup then. Wasn't my fav to begin with.

Two more setups:

Setup 5 - 8p

x1 Mafia Goon
x1 Mafia Traitor
x5 Town Vanilla
x1 Town 1-shot Cop

Pretty close to mountainous, recruiting the traitor would even it up for LyLo.

Setup 6 - 8p

x1 Mafia Goon
x1 Mafia Suicide Bomber
x4 Vanilla Town
x1 Town Innocent Child
x1 Town 1-shot Vig

Vig evens it for LyLo, IC should give the Suicide Bomber an interesting decision.

[mith]

BBmolla: The point is that when the Mafia has a Godfather, they know there isn't a Miller, so it is safe for the Tracker to claim Miller (if he knows there's a Godfather... which he may not FTF; if I were modding, I would figure out some way to reveal that roles of all Mafia members to the group so they are on the same page, as that's the sort of info they should have).

A Town Miller should still claim D1, but doing it this way means he's not completely confirmed by lack of counterclaim. It works ok your way too, though - in this case the Tracker can (but shouldn't always) claim when there is no Godfather, while in the Miller setup the Mafia get compensation for the Cop not having to bother investigating the Miller.

[BBmolla]

Oh. I'll just scratch the setup then. Wasn't my fav to begin with.

Lemme tell you why, sorry. Everyone is passed out a card, and most of the times the open setups will be run without mods the first nights. Meaning making someone a secret miller would be very difficult.

I suppose you could take the person lynched day 1, have them tell all VTs to raise their hands while everyone is asleep, and assign one of them miller, but that's kind of complex.

9 player setup:

Son of the Cop

If the miller dies, the cop may not investigate at night anymore.

1 Mafia Rolecop
1 Mafia Goon
1 Town Cop
1 Town Miller
5 Vanilla Town

Adding Rolecop should fix this setup a bit, no?

P-Edit: Oooooooh got it. That's easy to mod, just have whoever is announcing stuff say "Godfather if you exist, raise your hand." Your original is fine, it makes sense. Really nice actually.

[BBmolla]

Actually flipping it the way I did might work better.

If the Tracker's fake claim goes well, the cop literally can't find any Mafia in setup 1 and is useless. However in the other setup, he can find two of them. If you flip it, he can find one and one which I think is more balanced?

[mith]

That's only if the fake claim goes well, though, which is a big if. The other thing is that in either version, if the non-Tracker scum flips, town now knows if the Miller claim was legit. The Tracker claim would be extremely risky... but is probably still worth it some small percentage of the time.

The other fix is to randomize both and just tell the scum if there is a Miller or not, but that's inelegant.

[mith]

Maybe making Miller a sticker would be more interesting. Miller-Beloved Princess could be fun in a semi-open; Miller-PR wouldn't be as likely to claim immediately.

[BBmolla]

That's only if the fake claim goes well, though, which is a big if. The other thing is that in either version, if the non-Tracker scum flips, town now knows if the Miller claim was legit. The Tracker claim would be extremely risky... but is probably still worth it some small percentage of the time.

The other fix is to randomize both and just tell the scum if there is a Miller or not, but that's inelegant.

Once again you're right. Makes sense.

[BBmolla]

Maybe making Miller a sticker would be more interesting. Miller-Beloved Princess could be fun in a semi-open; Miller-PR wouldn't be as likely to claim immediately.

Definitely not a terrible idea. My only gripe with it is I absolutely love the miller art.

Edit: Why not both?

Edit2:

[BBmolla]

11 player setup:

Thrill On A No Kill

1 Mafia Suicide Bomber
1 Mafia Goon
1 Mafia Traitor
1 Town Doctor
1 Town Jailkeeper
6 Vanilla Town

Atm, my Traitor card says "You do not know who the mafia are. You learn their identities if you are targeted by their kill" but this setup assumes recruitment upon being nightkilled and being told who mafia are at the start.

No kill could mean so many things, which will also help with the balance of having 3 scum in 11 players. Suicide Bomber is in play to stop Jailkeeper from claiming day 1.

[Prof Fridays]

Tried my hand at a set-up with a cult:

Prof's Cult Setup

2 Mafia Goons
1 Cult 1-shot Recuiter (dies with mafia recruit; 1-shot refunded if target dies; Cultist stays Cult if Recruiter dies)
1 Town Tracker
X Vanilla Townies

Not sure how many VTs would balance this out properly (I was thinking maybe 6-8). I think the Tracker is a nice fit for the set-up, since it makes finding mafia a bit more easy than cult (since the cult is at more of a disadvantage). I wonder, though, if Town needs another PR, though, as it seems hard to leave things up to the Tracker alone to get information? Vigilante or CPR Doc could be good, since 4 scum votes can influence the lynch a lot in a smaller game size, and CPR Doc could protect the Tracker to some extent with the WIFOM smokescreen (will scum choose to kill the Tracker, or will they choose not to, with the expectation the CPR Doc will do it for them?). Admittedly, balance is not my forte.

It might be a bit far-out, but I personally am a fan of the Cult faction.

[BBmolla]

90% certain cult is in expansion atm.