Kingmaker II-Game Over

[Toaster Strudel]

Kill someone already.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

FoS: Zindie

Hammer anyone, preferably Fritz

[Zindaras]

Now I know why DGB irritates me so much...

Hmm?

Scope: No, I'm not going to kill Fritz, and no, I'm not going to hammer someone right now. The day is drawing to a close (and I'll be asking for claims pretty soon), but that's about it.

Remove Fritzler from LoE

.

[VitaminR]

The day is drawing to a close (and I'll be asking for claims pretty soon), but that's about it.

Seriously? Could you at least tell me why I am on the LoE then?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Now I know why DGB irritates me so much...

Hmm?

I think you've missed my point a bit. I was mostly saying that I don't think we should just ignore her and act like she's scum when she's not found to be scum already. We should at the very least just let her talk. Just going and saying she's scum and not letting her talk won't work.

Also, I don't assume everyone's town either. I just don't assume anything. Assuming anything automatically makes one's perceptions clouded.

When you think someone is scum, you can say that others are scummy by association with that first one. However, asides from stating them for future use, if you die, such feelings are useless, as they are not actually solid logic until the first player dies and is found to be scum.

She takes your above statement to the extreme. She assumes someone is scum, then assumes that other people are scum by association, then further assumes that more people are scum by association with the associated scum. It's a really irritating strategy that doesn't help at all, because we still don't know if the first person was scum.

[petroleumjelly]

The day is drawing to a close (and I'll be asking for claims pretty soon), but that's about it.

Seriously? Could you at least tell me why I am on the LoE then?

Seriously? How is it you keep acting like you -

and

the people you replaced - are God's gift on Earth?

[VitaminR]

Whoa... sorry, pj, not intended that way at all...

[Yosarian2]

...that was kind of a surprising reaction from PJ.

[Cavane]

Agreed. It's not an unreasonable question. On VitR's part, I mean. I'm not certain what the case on him is, myself.

[petroleumjelly]

Try reading Space Monkeys before calling my reaction 'surprising'. I really don't much care for when VitaminR tries to imply there is "no case against him", which is the impression I got from his post. Considering he is in my top 3 and I have explained

why

he is in my top 3, I don't find it surprising that he is on the LoE whatsoever, and yet he acts insulted that he is on it in the first place.

[Yosarian2]

Um, I don't think he was acting insulted, PJ. It sounded like he was surprised Zinderas was going to end the day soon, and wanted Zinderas to state his case against him first. Which was why I was a bit surprised you suddenly got so angry.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Yos, what do you think of Cavane?

[Thesp]

Thesp, it's not a bad reason unless you don't think the person is scum.

This is wrong. This is a rationalizing justification for lynching someone despite not thinking they are the ideal lynch. If you think they're the ideal lynch, you wouldn't need this argument.

I ain't side-stepping no one, dear Thesp. He isn't on my LoE, so I believe he's not a good execution.

It

is

side-stepping when a number of people express serious, vocal concern about him, and you say nothing about it. I'm not sure how that

couldn't

be considered sidestepping, since every other approach would be more head on than the one you took.

I believe that the huge amount of flak he got for his unorthodox playstyle in this game is an indicator of being town.

I don't follow you here. Why?

Essentially, an LoE is intangible, irrelevant.

Oh yes, the LoE is a useful little thing.

???

I really don't much care for when VitaminR tries to imply there is "no case against him", which is the impression I got from his post.

I find this interesting, seeing as the vibe I've been getting from MoS's posts through the game is an Al Capone-esque, "You ain't got nothin' on me, coppers!" sort of feel. I didn't read VitaminR's that way.

[petroleumjelly]

There's a large difference, Thesp. MoS has answered the complaints against him. I've read his answers, and although I agree he is in no position to be saying there's "nothing on him", I've read his responses and I still think he's town.

When

I

made my analysis on VitaminR (and the people he replaced),

his

response was this. He basically tries to trivialize the points against him as much as possible, and then says there are few comments about

him

in particular, to which I respond that that's because at that point in the game, VitaminR didn't have very many posts, so asking for a larger analysis on him in particular was rather undoable. He completely dismisses everything against Phoebus/DoS.

Coupled with his "disagreement" posts on DR - which he tries to overstate by using the word "fallacy" as many times as possible for things which are not fallacies - he has done nothing to make me want to keep him alive. He strikes me as a replacement for scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Thesp, it's not a bad reason unless you don't think the person is scum.

This is wrong. This is a rationalizing justification for lynching someone despite not thinking they are the ideal lynch. If you think they're the ideal lynch, you wouldn't need this argument.

This post has no relevance to proving that it's a bad reason.

[VitaminR]

When

I

made my analysis on VitaminR (and the people he replaced),

his

response was this. He basically tries to trivialize the points against him as much as possible, and then says there are few comments about

him

in particular, to which I respond that that's because at that point in the game, VitaminR didn't have very many posts, so asking for a larger analysis on him in particular was rather undoable.

I really tried to address your points fairly there. I later conceded that asking for more analysis was a bit unfair. As a result, you asked me a few questions about my suspicions (I tried to answer them in full).

He completely dismisses everything against Phoebus/DoS.

I indicated that I can't really defend their actions, since they aren't mine. Nowhere have I stated that that invalidates them.

As for Space Monkeys, I felt you were largely voting me on gut. I thought that, as scum, my only hope was to try to make your case seem empty to others.

Coupled with his "disagreement" posts on DR - which he tries to overstate by using the word "fallacy" as many times as possible for things which are not fallacies - he has done nothing to make me want to keep him alive. He strikes me as a replacement for scum.

I admit that I may have overused the word "fallacy." I think my later post on that is more balanced. I can't really see how you can judge my opinion of DR, or you, on that, though. My argument does not hinge on the fact that you allegedly committed fallacies, but rather on the fact that I disagree with you because I see it that way.

I admit there may have been some frustration in my response to Zindaras, but he has ignored my earlier question of why I am on his LoE and it seems unfair of him to move on to asking for claims without addressing that.

[RafK]

FWIW, I will note that one of the reasons I was dissatisfied with Yosarian's kingship was that after attacking Phoebus/VitaminR heavily on previous days, VR dropped off the radar entirely long before the execution.

As I noted on that day, my view on Phoebus/VitaminR is tied up with my view of Yos. I didn't have anything in particular against phoebus, and VR replaced in after the fact.

A VR execution would not be the worst information-wise, but at the moment I feel that he will come up town and I continue to support an SV lynch. However, I definitely prefer VR to Fritzler.. I don't know which of them is more likely scum, but a number of people pushed both for and against VR (and particularly for or against Phoebus) and that will give us some stuff to analyse. Whereas Fritz has been under the radar most of the game.... in circumstances where I have to choose between equally scummy people, such as VR and Fritz, I think information is very justifiable as the tie-break.

However, I reiterate that SV is my #1 choice from the LOE. SV can't be allowed to skate by another day.

[petroleumjelly]

However, I reiterate that SV is my #1 choice from the LOE. SV can't be allowed to skate by another day.

My name is Jelly and I endorse this message.

My preferred order of operations is as follows:

1.) SV
2.) VitR
3.) mnowax2

I can't read Fritz for beans. If he

had

to put on the list, he would be on the bottom, simply because I would consider him an essentially "random" execution, whereas these three I think are significantly more likely than the average player to be scum.

[Mastermind of Sin]

SV, Fritz, mnowax2, VR

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

Zindie is pulling a Rikku.

Vote: Zindie

Hammer someone.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Not really, Kscope.

[spectrumvoid]

*poke zindy*

[Yosarian2]

Yos, what do you think of Cavane?

I don't have my notes for this game with me at the moment, as I'm away for the weekend and I keep those in a word file on my own computer, and I honestly don't remember offhand what I thought about the people he replaced (that's why I keep notes in a game this big, heh) but I'll take a quick look at Cavane's recent posts now.

Any specific reason you're asking, by the way? Any thing in specific I should be looking for?

[Mastermind of Sin]

There is a specific reason, but your response could give me a possible clue towards your alignment, so I want to see what you say without any prodding in a specific direction.

[Cavane]

You're talking about me like I'm not in the room.