Of Gods And Men (GAME OVER!)

[Iecerint]

In order of your absolutely hideous quote boxes:

1. You are reading my post wrong. It does not make sense for all 4 of those assertions to be true at the same time. I don't even know how you could come to that conclusion. Rather, there are 4 mutually exclusive explanations (well, mostly mutually exclusive; that's how I meant them, anyway), I favor a scummy one and vote Fate. (I also have a weak secret scumtell on Fate, but that's neither here nor there.)

AND YES, YOU CONTINUOUSLY GAVE FATE A PASS BECAUSE HIS FIRST THREE VOTES WERE JUST RVS-GRADE STUFF. FACTFACTFACT.

2. No, I'm attacking Fate for *pretending* not to know about the vote mechanic, because by that point it was IMPOSSIBLE for any reasonable person not to have figured it out. I got it on page 1; how special ed can people be, etc.

3. Uh, I said raj was scummy for the same reason, so I dunno what your point is. I missed it because I didn't read his posts because they are poorly-spelt and punctuated and I was too busy continuously writing you love letters to bother with them.

4.

OK, so, I started responding to DTM's post, but it's such a load of crap that I really can't be bothered. He's spewing mass BS, there are internal contradictions everywhere, etc. If someone else sees something he says that is worth responding to, I'll do it, but I don't really see anything new, and I am tired and frustrated of having wasted the past several hours of my life.

Since all the cool kids are already saying it, I intend to worship the

Norse Gods

.

[Faraday]

Spy is playing normally. That doesn't mean he's townie (actually that cunt muncher is one of my better reads because he's playing normally).

I didn't say this was why he was town, though.

But the fact that you listed out so many people without Whys, and

just admitted to not having reasons made you scummier.

Bolded is you making stuff up. I have a reason, my gut. If you disagree, well to get in teh spirit of your pr, fuck you ;)But yeh, I trust my gut town reads, and I'll share them when I have them.


@ SpyreX I don't see it.

[SpyreX]

"Who brought you in?"
"Don't rolefish!"

"Worshipping the Old Gods is bad!"
"Don't talk too much about the worship mechanic"

"What information could you get about asking how many scum there are?"
"I think scum can recruit from the replacement pool"

Maybe like that'll explain it good.

---

Ice:

What's your read on me? Scum/town/etc?

[Iecerint]

I think SX's information on Mina is mostly innocuous, but the catch on Mina speculating that scum might be able to recruit from the replacements list is indeed WAY specific. Will sleep on it.

So long as some players have said SX is scum, I think he's town.

[Nikanor]

Pseudo-vote: Plum

(SK)
This post.

If the shift is scum derived, I would start looking at Nikanor atm.

Uh, it was really really obvious. And Osmodiar (Am I spelling that right?) was the first thing that came to mind when I saw that.
Or maybe I am scummy for that. Maybe I'm wrong, and thoroughly reading the mod's posts is a scum-tell.
Or maybe you should just get your head out of your ass and play the game like a normal person instead of spazzing out over every vaguely scummy thing.

That said, I really love secret information.

Unvote. Vote: Snow_Bunny.

(Mina)

[DTMaster]

Ice. The point I was making was: You do realize that your arguments apply multiple people but you're not spear heading those arguments on them. You're just tunneling on fucking Fate.

Tl:dr question: Why Fate? Over Raj?

@Faraday
Sorry, I stopped processing your post when you said:

Not missing, just not there.

In response to the reads.

Ok in the spirit of gut, I'll accept it, except you ignored the question on your Ice point. Which post bugged you?

Gut reads are triggered from a post that you read. Which one bugged you again?

[SpyreX]

So long as some players have said SX is scum, I think he's town.

What in the hells? How does this work? Who has said I'm scum?

What IS THIS?

And, even more importantly:

If you think I'm town, and I'm the ONLY ONE who has laid out anything about their worshipping, why would you say you'd be gung-ho norse instead of some version of "Well, SpyreX is town and said Endless are gonna be tech sooo" or even "It'll be whatever ABR's plan requires."

And Nik I may, in fact, be turning this wagon 'round but even if I don't its SECRET INFORMATION but not IRONCLAD DEATH METAL.

[Iecerint]

That was a simulpost. I, uh. Didn't see your question. Honest. O_O

To be a little more specific, I had my doubts about you earlier on during the ABR bit IIRC, but. They have lessened considerably.

Why'd'ye ask me specifically, SX?

Reflecting a little more on Minatell, I think it's only plausibly scummy if that were an actual mechanic. Which I mean. It is sort of mean for all the recruited players to be confirmed scum, but. Hmm. I suppose a scumMina flip would give us scumO scumDTM, potentially, but it seems like a kinda mean mechanic for Kinetic to use.

[SpyreX]

Because your bolded Norse Gods really, REALLY bothers me.

The dissonance is scummy. Enough that I'd put a bullet through it hands down.

[Faraday]

In response to the reads.

Ok in the spirit of gut, I'll accept it, except you ignored the question on your Ice point. Which post bugged you?

Gut reads are triggered from a post that you read. Which one bugged you again?

It wasn't one post in particular (I did say that I thought, but the site issues make posting fucking annoying). basically i've played with him as town and read games where he was town (kh for one) and he's usually pretty obv town. Conversely in the games I've played where he's scum an ongoing and opensource I've felt he was off but was never able to put it into words there either. He seems more like the latter here, I guess it's gut/meta knowing how he plays.

Maybe like that'll explain it good.

No I see what you mean, I just don't think she's more likely to be scum because of it. I'm sure she'll more than likely explain her thinking better than I could anyway, so yeah.

[DTMaster]

Or maybe you should just get your head out of your ass and play the game like a normal person instead of spazzing out over every vaguely scummy thing.

Umm. Wut. Let me outline something for you.


See this cunt. "draws a cunt". This is the scummy post/topic/etc.

See this dick. "draws a dick. This is me shoving it in was I try and nail scum.

See your argument? Your point is?

If you're calling me out on scum hunting? So what? If you're calling me out on something else, have some balls and say it.

[Iecerint]

I appear to be tunneling on Fate because I have to attend to your posts to such an absurd degree that I cannot bother to invest time in figuring out anyone else. It took me like 3 posts to get around to READING raj because I kept responding to things, I was so stuck in answering your series of (largely prior addressed) questions.

SX, what's the dissonance?

[SpyreX]

I'll say this and lay this out (OHH SNAP META BEWARE): Cognitive Dissonance is still my absolute favorite and one of the few fairly reliable (i'll flip hard on even a HARD town read) scum tells.

It fuels my powerful wizardom more than any other single piece of data.

It is known.

@Ice: The quotes in my post on this page (" marks not quote quotes)

[Nikanor]

And Nik I may, in fact, be turning this wagon 'round but even if I don't its SECRET INFORMATION but not IRONCLAD DEATH METAL.

That's better than what I've got.

If you're calling me out on scum hunting? So what? If you're calling me out on something else, have some balls and say it.

instead of spazzing out over every vaguely scummy thing.

I believe that I have exactly outlined my problem with your posting style this game in this statement. If you don't understand what I mean, please review my statement, or ask me to further explain what I mean before making baseless accusations.

[Iecerint]

basically i've played with him as town and read games where he was town (kh for one) and he's usually pretty obv town. Conversely in the games I've played where he's scum an ongoing and opensource I've felt he was off but was never able to put it into words there either. He seems more like the latter here, I guess it's gut/meta knowing how he plays.

1. You were in Kingdom Hearts?
2. My play in Kingdom Hearts was not typical IMO. That was my "I'm confirmed town, so I'll just play Watson to DGB's Sherlock Holmes and no one will care." I recently did the same thing to ooba's Sherlock Holmes in Greek Mythology. I did play sorta like that in Twilight, too, though, largely because everyone was nice to me even though I replaced total lurker xofelf and claimed VT.
3. You were actually bff with me in OS. That's why I tried to save you from getting lynched D1.
4. No comment on the ongoing.

Just sayin.

[Beholder]

Day 1, Vote Count 5

The Crumbling Waste

Within the core of Sanctuary the remnants begin their struggle anew...

1 Starbuck (0) -
2 Faraday (1) -
3 ABR (0) -
4 manho (0) -
5 dramonic (0) - Iecerint, Ortolan
6 chronopie (0) -
7 Fate (2) - Chronopie, DTM
8 ooba (0) -
9 Mighty Orbots (2) -
10 Parama (0) -
11 Plum (0) - raj, Fate
12 totallynotmafia (0) - DarkStalker
13 SaintKerrigan (2) -
14 Elscouta (1) -
15 DarkStalker (0) - CryMeARiver
16 Snow_Bunny (0) - SpyreX, Nikator
17 Nikanor (1) -
18 Mina (2) -
19 SpyreX (0) -
20 Katy (0) -
21 Tarhalindur (1) -
22 Percy (0) - Plum, Percy
23 Kairyuu (0) - Mina, ooba
24 rajrhcpfreak (2) - Faraday
25 CryMeARiver (2) -
26 Iecerint (1) - Parama, Mighty Mighty Mighty Orbots
27 Ortolan (0) -
28 DTMaster (2) - Elscouta

Votes Required to Lynch: 15
Not Voting: 10

Its fixed, yada yada

[Iecerint]

Uh, I've never heard the term "cognitive dissonance" outside of psychology, so you'll have to say what the tell even means in MS. My guess is that it would mean something like Fairy Godfather, where someone totally makes up bizarre, weird stuff just to fit their contrived version of the game mechanics to make themselves not auto-scum, but I don't see evidence of that.

[Chronopie]

@Mod: when did I become a double voter?

[Iecerint]

(And didn't someone just call you scummy a bit ago? Maybe I made it up; can't find it now. The reason I put that out there was that I don't like advertising town reads for their own sake because it signals good players to kill. Irrelevant concern if some players clearly think the player is suspicious.)

[rajrhcpfreak]

Hey, raj asked me a question a long time ago! Who knew?

[D]o you have a problem with random voting[,] Iecerint?

It depends on what you mean by "random voting."

1. I endorse soon-as-possible (or sooner!), RVS-stage analysis. So, I endorse what people are saying I ("wrongly") did to Fate, even though I'm not convinced I did it at all this time.

2. I endorse voting in your first post, and I endorse keeping a vote down at all times thereafter barring extreme circumstances.

3. However, I do not like /random'd RVS votes, or for players to somehow claim that their RVS votes shouldn't be analyzed because they are "random." That is sort of not the point of RVS. so that is why this DTM business with Fate RVS being off the table rubs me the wrong way. But if you are a badmeta player and cannot be helped (as Fate apparently is, contrary to my experience), that is something else.

great comments. but i wasnt asking you that. and you shouldnt have insetered the puncuation because i was asking SK if he had a problem random voting for you.

[SpyreX]

Its where "actions" dont align with "words".

A very obvious example: someone self voted and later in the day attacked someone else for self voting (as, of course, self-voting is scummy).

So, the logic behind it was:

Self-voting is scummy.
X self-voted.
Therefore X is scum.

The PROBLEM lies when the person doing it also performed the action. There is a dissonance between what they are saying and what they are doing.

Along the same lines, saying something along the lines of "Worshipping the Old Gods is a bad idea" and then espousing an opinion of "Discussion of the worshipping mechanic will be beneficial to the scum" creates the same kind of dissonance.

Or, again, asking in the tone of surprise what information can be garnered from asking how many scum there are and then giving an opinion that does just that.

Yea

[Iecerint]

Oh. That's actually called hypocrisy, isn't it? w/e

Regarding Els's plan, it goes like this:

Els: I think we should all sit and discuss whether or not we should claim worship targets. Don't claim the actual targets yet.
Iec: I'm not sure that gives us much alignment information unless the game is set-up in a pretty bizarre fashion. I'm kinda skeptical.
Player X: NORSE!
Player Y: EGYPT!
Player Z: NORSE!
Player AA: OLD GODS LULZ
Iec: Uh. Fine. I'm worshiping the Norse Gods.

The Old Gods avoidance thing was just based on flavor -- there are no a priori "town" Old Gods whatsoever. I explicitly said that it was just a flavor thing at the time IIRC.

For the other, my worry was (similarly) that it would sidetrack more legitimate discussion. But then it seemed like protesting would do just as much, anyway, given ABR's reputation, so I played along. Plus, I kinda like doing what he tells me to do. ^^

NB: There was also one other reason for my skepticism, but I don't want to claim it outright at this time. Still thinking about it.

[Mina]

Eek. This game is going WAAAAAAY too fast. This thread grew about two pages while I was writing this. To make matters worse, every time I try to preview or flip back a page, the site takes a minute to load. My natural rhythm is one wallpost of doom per day, so apologies in advance if I don't keep up.

I don't get why people doubt that DTM has a post restriction (regardless of his alignment), but DTM, could you please tone it down a little? Right now, I'm skimming over your posts because they're tl;dr and full of fluff and insults. It's hard to get a read on you.

Nikanor, do you suspect me, or are you just voting for me because of SpyreX's "secret information" comment?

I started ISO-ing everyone, but I'll save it for another post for readability and because at least fifteen other people will post before I finish it. First I'll just answer SpyreX's case.

In all fairness, there was a bit of cognitive dissonance going on in that post. I'd starting writing an over-eager paragraph about my set-up theories, but then I realized that it would give away whether I was a man or god. Cue hasty deleting and awkward, cryptic comments about not role-fishing. That was me trying to be discreet and be careful with my wording.

But I think you're nitpicking with the following:

"Who brought you in?"
"Don't rolefish!"

I never asked

who

(as in, which specific players) brought them in. How is it rolefishing to ask

if

they were recruited? In hindsight, I'll admit it probably wouldn't have accomplished much, but there was nothing else worth questioning at the time.

(You know what? I know I'm going to be accused of rolefishing for this, but I'd just like to compare ortolan's and DTM's reactions to my question:

I don't think this should be discussed, certainly at this point in time.

I was told that I was to replace in ASAP, since I was a person on the replacement list. Then I got my role PM. And yes someone recruited me to join this game. Rawr!

Something does not fit.)

"Worshipping the Old Gods is bad!"
"Don't talk too much about the worship mechanic"

I asked people if they knew, because I thought that was useful information. Revealing that I'm not an Old One, on the other hand, doesn't say anything interesting (because I could be a Norse, Egyptian, Judeo-Christian, or mortal).

"What information could you get about asking how many scum there are?"
"I think scum can recruit from the replacement pool"

I don't get this one. The starting balance would be adjusted for recruitments from the replacement pool. What does this have to do with people's guesses on the number of scum?

Speaking of which...ABR, what happened to that question about the number of scum? You claimed you had a plan on what to do with that information, but you seem to have abandoned it in favour of your worship-claiming. (My read on ABR is town, but that one detail niggles at me. This master plan could be hot air.)

Additionally, there is already some SECRET INFORMATION to be pulled if Mina is scum. Secret, delicious information.

Do you mean that Ortolan and DTMaster would be confirmed town (although Iec seems to have read it the opposite way)?

[Nikanor]

Nikanor, do you suspect me, or are you just voting for me because of SpyreX's "secret information" comment?

It's the secret information that catches my fancy. The case against you isn't too bad either, at least not for this stage of the game, but my main reason for voting you is the super secret tidbit that SpyreX is dangling in front of me.

[Mina]

Nikanor, do you suspect me, or are you just voting for me because of SpyreX's "secret information" comment?

It's the secret information that catches my fancy. The case against you isn't too bad either, at least not for this stage of the game, but my main reason for voting you is the super secret tidbit that SpyreX is dangling in front of me.

I'll admit I'm prone to OMGUS, but I don't like this response. You're not committing. Either flat-out say you suspect me or don't jump on the bandwagon. Don't use "Oh, but that damn SpyreX made me do it by teasing me with extra information!" as an excuse. Particularly since he said nothing about having

role-related

information. It sounds like you're covering your ass.

I've just ISO'd you, and I noticed you haven't done all that much so far. I mean, neither have I, yet, but your contributions after RVS jokes boil down to linking to a scummy post (admittedly, SK's post was pretty bad), getting petulant over a minor theory that DTM tossed out pages ago (seriously...was that the only time anyone mentioned you negatively all game? Why the hell were you trying to defend yourself from a theory that had already been proven wrong after SpyreX's claim?), and vote me when you don't seem all that confident in the case on me.

What do you think of, say, Iecerint? Ooba? Ortolan?