Open 570: Making Friends and Enemies (Mafia Wins!)

[davesaz]

@Josh, looking more into that same post, I see Shinobi calling BBT town, but can't find BBT calling Shinobi town, at least not in a definite way.

So I'm lacking evidence on 3 of the 4 people you put into pairs with each other. Looks like you have some serious explaining to do.

[beastcharizard]

I was really just 1 away? Gosh I suck.

[Peabody]

837 - Uct is town, Shinobi not so much. Follow up to come when he is on his laptop. This never comes.

Okay, yes, this did come eventually, but it was only after I was prodded on it. However, regardless, what motivation would scum have to promise a follow up and then not follow through? No one was asking me what I made of the shinobi/uct 1v1. I only posted my cursory thoughts, then I got lazy. What would be the point as scum to delay? In fact, I would think scum would be more sure to follow up.

Yeah, this isn't alignment indictive.

995 - This post is odd. He states that he thinks GM could be scum because of her lack of effort and emotional defence. He follows this to say that he simply does not see the case for NPAU being scum. In summary, he can see GM being scum for reasons, but he does not see NPAU as scum, he just doesn't town-read him. Yet, he ends up on the NPAU wagon completely ignoring his own reads and following who he thinks is town. This is bad logic, he saw a reason for GM being scum, GM was a viable lynch, but he decided not to pursue it in favour of somebody he could not see as being scum.

I can see how this could look as if I was scum reading GM and town reading NPAU. This isn't the case. The two were both very close in terms of who to choose in my mind. This is why I was so frustrated about the wagons. Both of them were not top choices of mine for scum. I was going back and forth on them both.

I generally as a player do not attribute effort to alignment. However, Mala did mention something about GM doing this as scum often. Sure, it pinged me as somewhat scummy only after Mala said that. The emotional defense is more what pinged me as a GM scum because I believe I played a game with her earlier, and she reacted with such emotional appeal when she was actually scum. However, the quick wagon on GM looked like GM was town. I wanted to delay a GM lynch because the wagon on her looked so scummy. It was a good choice because now GM is a pretty solid town read of mine.

NPAU's vote hopping did not ping me as scum. I failed to town read him. I didn't scum read him either. I saw Heph as scum.

The tipping point here which made me choose NPAU over GM was 1) the quick wagon on GM and 2) pretty much ALL of the people on the NPAU wagon was a town read of mine. Heph was on GM. The GM wagon was more shady to me than NPAU. So I chose NPAU.

1005 - Over-reaction. He 'hates' both these wagons. Both are 'probably' town. Wait, NPAU is now a town-read? Because in 970, you specifically state that you're not town-reading NPAU. Looking for some town-cred after the NPAU lynch?

It's not an over-reaction. It's what I was feeling at the time. NPAU was not an ideal lynch for me. No, I wasn't really town-reading him even after saying he's probably town. I was more just... Well, I hated the lynch choices. I would have rather it have been on heph.

Check out my reply to the last quote.

1007 - He casually throws a scum-read out. Conveniently, right at the end of the day. You would expect him to follow this up at the start of D2. He doesn't. To my memory, still hasn't.

My thought here was Huntress was doing a good job out of the spotlight. I still haven't reread her except for a skim. Nothing really alarms me about her now except she hasn't been examined for pretty much the entire game, minus Mala trying to get a read on her. I thought about her day 2, but decided not to pursue anything since I didn't really see anything outstanding in her iso as I skimmed.

1095 - He semi-agrees with my case on Dave. He needs to look at Dave in-depth. This also never happens.

It did come. Right here. First paragraph.

1101 - Reads list. Here we go, he was scum-reading Huntress and he had to look at Dave in-depth as well. This is it. Sadly, no, it isn't. In fact, he doesn't even mention Huntress, he begins to pursue Heph again. He also states that 'Dave hasn't pinged him as town or scum because he hasn't been paying attention to him in terms of alignment'. So, you're not trying to get a read on Dave because....

See my answer above. I eventually said what I thought about Dave v BBT 1v1. I thought his answers were reasonable. You can see later that I put him on my town list. Right now it's more null than town. Yes, my reads change.

1446 - I think Wisdom pointed this one out. He pretty much sheeps everything Wisdom has said. He town-reads Uct in this post.

Let me outline my posting process one more time since no one seems to listen to this. I had five pages to read to catch up. I was behind. So, I posted my thoughts as I read in Notepad. I wrote my thoughts, post by post, and tried to arrange them in a way that makes sense. As I got to Wisdom's posts, why should I delete my own thoughts when they were said by others? You want to know what I'm thinking right?

Anyway, after I see more things while I'm writing my post, I revise them. You'll see in my 1146 that I do give credit to Wisdom for part of my thought process, but it doesn't nullify that I was thinking it as I read it.

It was not an intentional sheep.

1514 - Reads-list. He is scum-reading Uct. Why did this change? Still scum-reading Huntress, whilst doing nothing about it.

No no no. I was NOT scum reading UCT. I put him in my PoE pile. I decided Uct's 1v1 vs Shinobi doesn't actually mean a town Uct. I decided Shinobi came out more town than Uct later. Yes, it's a complete change in my opposite thought process earlier in the game. However, reads change. Mine changed because my townread on Uct was based on his logic. However, I realize, scum could have logic. Shinobi is town because he backed off of Uct. It seemed town motivated.

Also, GM to answer your question on Shinobi's frustrations: look at Shinobi's reaction to Wisdom's tunneling. He is frustrated and passionate about the frustration. I just saw it as town. Take these posts as examples: 1760 and 1761 and 1765.

Pea continually states his 'scum reads' but never actually follows up on them. He is continually 'catching up' which makes him look ridiculously town and I believe this is one of the main reasons I kept my town-read on him as long as I did.

His reads are inconsistent and I don't feel like they're genuine.

Yes, I do fail to follow up sometimes. But that's absolute laziness on my part.

My reads seem inconsistant because they constantly change even though I don't always explain why. Sometimes I read things impulsively, and other times there are specific instances which cause me to town read those I previously thought were scum or null.

The reads you are asserting are inconsistant are NPAU and Uct. You assert I didn't follow up on huntress or Dave. I explained both of these things in the post above.

[Peabody]

Let's revisit this post.

I have Mala, GM, and Davesaz as town.
Peabody is town, but I'm less sure.

That leaves BBT and Shinobi claiming to know that each other is town, but claiming to not be masons.
And that Leaves
Wisdom/MS and Nero/heph claiming that each other is town.

I'm definitely thinking that one group is scum. Are they scum or are they masons? or are neither of them scum, and neither of them masons.
It's like it's multiball only one team is town and one team is scum.

Without getting into masons again, I have a big question about your comment that the Wisdom/MS and Nero/heph slots are claiming each other as town. Can you point to the places where these slots actually said that, in a definite way? Not just a read between the lines joking around type incident, but where they actually meant it?

Eh, Not sure this should be answered.

[davesaz]

Why not? Josh makes connections between Wisdom and Nero, and between BBT and Shinobi. I pointed out that these connections don't actually exist. If Josh is totally making up connections, where's the town motivation in that?

Note, I'm not asking what the connections really are, I"m asking for where Josh thought he saw connections. If I'm missing something, then fine let's see the evidence.

[Peabody]

I don't know how he'll respond to it. He doesn't seem to be afraid to out mason suspects.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Okay, yes, this did come eventually, but it was only after I was prodded on it. However, regardless, what motivation would scum have to promise a follow up and then not follow through? No one was asking me what I made of the shinobi/uct 1v1. I only posted my cursory thoughts, then I got lazy. What would be the point as scum to delay? In fact, I would think scum would be more sure to follow up.

Can you link me to it please?

The motivation as scum is that you appear to be scum-hunting. You also appear to be willing to express your reads. However, you don't follow up on these reads which make them seem fake.

I can see how this could look as if I was scum reading GM and town reading NPAU. This isn't the case.

Yeah, except I explicitly stated that you were not town-reading NPAU. I don't understand why you're suggesting otherwise.

All of the stuff I have cut out here is you basically repeating everything I just said in my case.

Clarification;

GM's quick wagon and derail makes it seem she's town. But her lack of effort earlier in the game and emotional defense appears somewhat scummy.

This is you giving reasons for why GM

could

be scum.

NPAU... I just don't see the NPAU case. Vote hopping isn't scummy to me at all.

This is you saying you

don't

see the NPAU case. So, he isn't town and he isn't scum.

Now, logic dictates that if you find Person A (GM) 'somewhat scummy' and Person B (NPAU) 'null', that you end up on Person A's wagon. This did not happen. Inconsistency.

It's not an over-reaction. It's what I was feeling at the time. NPAU was not an ideal lynch for me. No, I wasn't really town-reading him even after saying he's probably town. I was more just... Well, I hated the lynch choices. I would have rather it have been on heph.

So you wasn't town-reading him, even though you said he was 'probably town'. Got it.

My thought here was Huntress was doing a good job out of the spotlight. I still haven't reread her except for a skim. Nothing really alarms me about her now except she hasn't been examined for pretty much the entire game, minus Mala trying to get a read on her. I thought about her day 2, but decided not to pursue anything since I didn't really see anything outstanding in her iso as I skimmed.

This is so weirdly worded. The fact is, you didn't follow up on your throw-out scum-read. If that was a legit read, as soon as NPAU flipped town, you should have been ISO'ing Huntress ready to pressure her D2. This didn't happen. Makes your reads seem fake.

It did come. Right here. First paragraph.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's you giving your opinion on my case on Dave?

That is very different to you actually ISO'ing and analyzing Dave for yourself. Which is what you said you would do.

No no no. I was NOT scum reading UCT. I put him in my PoE pile.

My bad, so there's no scum in your PoE pile? You're saying you essentially don't have one single scum-read?

[Josh_B]

Well, I hated the lynch choices. I would have rather it have been on heph.

This 's me. Where were you when I was trying to lynch Heph? Oh, I remember. You were complaining that I self voted.

[Peabody]

Okay, yes, this did come eventually, but it was only after I was prodded on it. However, regardless, what motivation would scum have to promise a follow up and then not follow through? No one was asking me what I made of the shinobi/uct 1v1. I only posted my cursory thoughts, then I got lazy. What would be the point as scum to delay? In fact, I would think scum would be more sure to follow up.

Can you link me to it please?

The motivation as scum is that you appear to be scum-hunting. You also appear to be willing to express your reads. However, you don't follow up on these reads which make them seem fake.

Sure. It's here and halfway down.
It was way late, but I did end up sharing why I thought the way I did. I did end up following up on Dave in terms of your and his 1v1. I followed up on Uct based on him vs shinobi. I did not follow up on huntress in thread. I skimmed her, but didn't really see anything which immediately stood out.

My issue with following up is this game is the longest/fastest moving game I've ever played. I'm just having trouble sifting through all this info. When I see the magnitude of the pages, my apathy sets in. However, most of my reads, I have followed up on eventually. Unless you're thinking of a specific read apart from huntress?

I can see how this could look as if I was scum reading GM and town reading NPAU. This isn't the case.

Yeah, except I explicitly stated that you were not town-reading NPAU. I don't understand why you're suggesting otherwise.

I was referencing when I later said NPAU was 'probably town'. Which you mentioned.

Now, logic dictates that if you find Person A (GM) 'somewhat scummy' and Person B (NPAU) 'null', that you end up on Person A's wagon. This did not happen. Inconsistency.

I just explained why I voted NPAU over GM.

Here:

I can see how this could look as if I was scum reading GM and town reading NPAU. This isn't the case. The two were both very close in terms of who to choose in my mind. This is why I was so frustrated about the wagons. Both of them were not top choices of mine for scum. I was going back and forth on them both.

I generally as a player do not attribute effort to alignment. However, Mala did mention something about GM doing this as scum often. Sure, it pinged me as somewhat scummy only after Mala said that. The emotional defense is more what pinged me as a GM scum because I believe I played a game with her earlier, and she reacted with such emotional appeal when she was actually scum. However, the quick wagon on GM looked like GM was town. I wanted to delay a GM lynch because the wagon on her looked so scummy. It was a good choice because now GM is a pretty solid town read of mine.

NPAU's vote hopping did not ping me as scum. I failed to town read him. I didn't scum read him either. I saw Heph as scum.

The tipping point here which made me choose NPAU over GM was 1) the quick wagon on GM and 2) pretty much ALL of the people on the NPAU wagon was a town read of mine. Heph was on GM. The GM wagon was more shady to me than NPAU. So I chose NPAU.

It's not an over-reaction. It's what I was feeling at the time. NPAU was not an ideal lynch for me. No, I wasn't really town-reading him even after saying he's probably town. I was more just... Well, I hated the lynch choices. I would have rather it have been on heph.

So you wasn't town-reading him, even though you said he was 'probably town'. Got it.

Didn't you didn't say I wasn't townreading NPAU? I was frustrated with the wagons. I didn't like either choice. I was flopping back and forth on what I thought of his alignment. I was frustrated I was pinned into one or the other, so I said in my exasperation that both were probably town. I said what I said, hoping he would flip scum. Part of me did entertain the thought he was town, however, and I know you'll probably jump on this as being an inconsistancy. But the truth is that I kept going back and forth at that time. But what was I to do with the deadline approaching rapidly?

My thought here was Huntress was doing a good job out of the spotlight. I still haven't reread her except for a skim. Nothing really alarms me about her now except she hasn't been examined for pretty much the entire game, minus Mala trying to get a read on her. I thought about her day 2, but decided not to pursue anything since I didn't really see anything outstanding in her iso as I skimmed.

This is so weirdly worded. The fact is, you didn't follow up on your throw-out scum-read. If that was a legit read, as soon as NPAU flipped town, you should have been ISO'ing Huntress ready to pressure her D2. This didn't happen. Makes your reads seem fake.

Yep, I was lazy. It was a throw-out read, yes. It's something I said in the moment, then I skimmed her iso, and didn't really have proof or a case. Just that she wasn't being paid attention to.

It did come. Right here. First paragraph.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's you giving your opinion on my case on Dave?

That is very different to you actually ISO'ing and analyzing Dave for yourself. Which is what you said you would do.

I decided he was town. Now he's null. No, I didn't full on analyze him. I analyzed him based off of your 1v1. Which made me feel content on it at the time. Also, keep in mind I said that right before I reached peak apathy and didn't post for a few days.

No no no. I was NOT scum reading UCT. I put him in my PoE pile.

My bad, so there's no scum in your PoE pile? You're saying you essentially don't have one single scum-read?

I didn't have one, no. I do have one now.

======================

BBT, why, when you scum read Wisdom, are you gunning for my lynch now? Why did you wait until Wisdom said he could be wrong about me? Why were you talking to me like I was town when I accused you of being scum?

[Peabody]

Well, I hated the lynch choices. I would have rather it have been on heph.

This 's me. Where were you when I was trying to lynch Heph? Oh, I remember. You were complaining that I self voted.

I didn't complain you self-voted until the beginning of D2. Is this when you're referencing?

I didn't care about lynching Heph when he was away. He seemed like an irrelevant wagon at the time.

[Josh_B]

Dave start reading around Page 63
Pg 65 is particularly interesting because it has like three vote changes from BBT. Ever the while BBT is defending Shinobi.

GM because I thought she was scum D1 and her play D2 hasn't changed my mind.

This was a long, long time ago though.

My top 3 lynches for today would be Wisdom, Josh or Pea.

One of the p65 vote changes was to Heph. (not on this list of scum)

I guess he doesn't directly call Shinobi town, but the way he calls Shinobi "maybe scum," flips his town read on Wisdom, continuously asks Wisdom to prove why Shinobi is scum(even though Wisdom stated it directly), and votes every one else and their brother makes me think that BBT is hard defending a scum buddy.
Even...

Josh can you explain why you're joining a wagon that one of your scum-reads is pushing.

I realise that you said 'Shinobi is scummier than Wisdom' but this doesn't really excuse you joining a wagon your scum-read is leading.

...shows how he is still trying to defend Shinobi. Shinobi calling him town in reverse is extremely suspect to me. At minimum this is some hard buddying. I'm going to quote myself from a previous game when a similar thing happened.
Subject: Mini 1561: Jesus Christ Mafia (Game Over!)

My first duty of this DP is to post an Apology to Kat, here it Goes:

Good Night dear Kat. I hope you accept this as an apology, or a reminder to not be duped by an over buddying scum player. I'm taking it as the latter.

[goodmorning]

Peabody is Town. I look forward to seeing what Aegor has to say.

[Josh_B]

After a re read. the connections between MS/Wisdom and Heph/Nero is not as strong as I thought it was. I think it just stuck out to me because I spent days arguing with Wisdom over why I thought Heph was scum.
Dammit, Wisdom really got into my head.

[Peabody]

Dammit, Wisdom really got into my head.

I see what you did there.

Sooo, vote BBT, Josh?

[Shinobi]

Josh.

Stop calling me scum because of things other players did in different games.

[Shinobi]

And stop getting my posts wrong for the love of all things.

I can still lynch Josh, for the record.

[Nero Cain]

Dave needs to see some posts by a replacement.

Dave needs to look at my post I've already posted.

Stop taking potshots at each other pls

????

BBT is scum hunting. That's not a potshot like at all.

Sheep me onto the scum lynch guys.

[Shinobi]

You haven't given us a single reason as to why I'm scum.

So if you feel like doing that any time soon, that would be cool so I can go out and debunk it.

[Malakittens]

@Hunt:

I'd point out why I feel that way at a later time, but right now isn't the time to do so. I'm being vague for a reason.

[davesaz]

The other replacement.

[Aegor]

post tomorrow

[Nero Cain]

Your scum for the same reason that anyone is ever scum on this site-you got a red pm.

but more precise-I think posts like #70 often come from scum. Its not some cray-cray thought process to think MS was posting weird and attribute that to scum posting. So it looks to me like you knew he was town and thus are defending him and writing it off as a pl when that's not was happening.

Just like Dave was being kinda scummy and BBT was scum hunting him. You writing that off as "taking potshots" doesn't make sense.

Nor do I like your "there's no case on me!" despite me talking about you and two things but I'm also assuming that you've done a shitload of other scummy stuff

[uctriton00]

Unvote

Will try best not to get prodded again; if it does I should be replaced, my vote is just sheep weight at that rate

[Shinobi]

Your scum for the same reason that anyone is ever scum on this site-you got a red pm.

but more precise-I think posts like #70 often come from scum. Its not some cray-cray thought process to think MS was posting weird and attribute that to scum posting. So it looks to me like you knew he was town and thus are defending him and writing it off as a pl when that's not was happening.

Just like Dave was being kinda scummy and BBT was scum hunting him. You writing that off as "taking potshots" doesn't make sense.

Nor do I like your "there's no case on me!" despite me talking about you and two things but I'm also assuming that you've done a shitload of other scummy stuff

I don't like lynching people for bad reasons.

I didn't like the fact that Dave and BBT were being dickish to each other.

If you're assuming that I've done a shitload of scummy stuff, then I suggest you go back and read the thread to actually figure out what I've been doing.

This will be the end of me explaining my actions to you until then.

[goodmorning]

BBT is scum hunting.

This statement is questionable.