Kingmaker II-Game Over

[Yosarian2]

Geez. The poor mod.

[Skruffs]

I like the roster. This is a good group of very good players; I am humbled to be there.

I'm up to page... 3. I just made a huge post on Open 19, and now I'm relaxed enough to start this one.

Has anyone posted any PBPAs in the past that might be useful?

Shanba posted, but her predecessors didn't, basically, at all. All I know is that Ubertimmy was raped by his school. Which.. uhh.. well we won't go there.

[Mastermind of Sin]

good luck lol. you'll need it
Oh and btw-kill MoS while im away.

Hi guys.
I'm, uh, I'm replacing Shanba.
Jesus.
*begins to read*

pfft.

[spectrumvoid]

I suggest reading the king's summary a couple of pages back. And PJ's analysis posts.

PBPA on mnowax coming up.

[Skruffs]

MOS, I'll blame this on BM pointing the finger at you straight out, but you *do* seem both attentive, agreeable, and.. docile, this game. This is completely different from the MoS-scum I knew and loved at the end of PR3. What's up?

[Mastermind of Sin]

a) I'm not scum
b) I openly declared that because of the mechanics of this game, I would be playing somewhat differently
c) All of the above

[spectrumvoid]

CTD:
- votes pablito: voting for everyone who associates with Glork.
- votes bird for joke votes.
- townie vibes from PJ and box, and some from Glork
- In his next post, he votes for bird, unvotes pablito for being confusing, votes UT.
- Votes PJ for lynching RC on short notice, SC for 1 post complimenting PJ while admitting he didn't know why SC was scummy, votes twomz for burden of proof fallacy (pointed out by Glork), votes UT for extreme lurking.

A couple of oddities here: CTD votes bird for joke votes, revotes bird (when he never unvoted), unvotes pablito for illogical reasons, doesn't explain what were the 'townie vibes', criticises PJ and SC regarding RC execution, when he himself didn't contribute to the pre-execution discussion. For some odd reason harped on UT when there were more lurkers around.

- Doesn't believe pro-town PJ would've waited so long, bangs on pablito for defense on PJ.
- In his next post he says he found pablito's play scummy, but he's being intentionally scummy, so he doesn't think pablito is a good lynch.

Yet another brief skirmish with pablito where he comes off sounding a little illogical. Noted the attack on PJ.

- Likes MBL's case against PJ, Pablito, and Glork (weakest.) Points out Glork-town wouldn't dismiss cases against PJ and pablito so easily.
- MBL response: defense of MBL will give scum + points.
- CTD: Voted only UT for lurking, voted T and SC for (now non-existent) scummy posts.

Slightly contradicting here. It's pretty obvious (to me, that is), that T and SC were lurking as well as UT. He himself pointed earlier that T/SC only posted 1 post. Could be an attempt to spread suspicion among all lurkers without drawing attention to any specific one. I also find it hard to believe that he didn't repost what exactly happened (the posts that disappeared.) [edit: till he was asked to by others.] Considering they were the only people he thought scummy, I'd thought he would have remember what happened during the crash. [edit: he clarified later.]

- FInds Glork ignoring T odd, considering Glork first pointed out the fallacy.
- Attacks PJ on RC-execution. Disagree with Zindaras on almost everything.
- Doesn't want either Yos or MBL-execution, unsure about Pooky and pablito, wants to keep them around to prove their (un)worthiness, need to reread Mert, wants SC, slight 'raised-eyebrow' at LL.

Repeated attack on PJ, again brief mention of pablito => CTD thinks someone who intentionally acts scummy is still worth keeping around, supports an SC-execution based on a single scummy post, slightly non-commital-ish on LL, first mention of Zindaras.

- States case on Twomz
- Says he did what he could by voting the people he thought were scummy (against ZIndaras's accusations that he was lying low), says he doesn't have long cases on the people he voted, just points out scummy posts, elaborates on why PJ-king was scummy for executing RC.
- Agreed he didn't weigh in on the RC execution, clearly stated that the one person on his LOE was bird111.

I really can't remember whether the post was lost during the crash, but I can't find where he stated that he agreed with bird111, other than his vote on him, which wasn't clearly explained.

- Clarifies his case on SC.
- Clarifies that he can't vote all lurkers.
- Asks Glorks + LL to speak up.
- Clarify that he did try to get UT prodded.

- Zin: didn't bring opinion to king's attention. CTD: did by voting.
- Zin: why did you vote lurkers when prodding wasn't working? CTD: lurking warranted a vote.
- Zin: no extensive case on PJ. CTD: did.
- Zin: Pointing out scummy posts is not enough. Need to focus attention. CTD: 3/4 people are doing the same as CTD.
- Zin: RC town = PJ-scum? CTD: Yes.
- Double standard by Zin looking over CTD and not SC's posts.
- Don't like to make cases.

I don't think CTD did enough to bring the people he thought were scummy to the PJ's attention, 1 vote is insufficient without a clearly explained case. Slight contradiction here when he said he voted UT for lurking as a prod, and now he's saying it's because lurking is scummy. Just because 3/4 jump down a building doesn't mean CTD should do the same. Repeated banging on PJ for executing RC-town. I really don't like this (Yes, I can predict what PJ is going to say to this...), but I especially do not like the way CTD did not check in on yesterday's execution, did nothing to explain fully why he thought the 3 people he voted were scummy simply because he claims he doesn't post long cases. This point isn't correct, considering the amount of time he's spent repeatedly harping on PJ. And I agree with Zindaras here that voting is simply insufficient.

- Thinks Mert is scummy. Thinks PJ-town would be more alert regarding scum-tells by Mert.
- SC contradicting himself is scummy.
- PJ jumped on UT wagon --> PJ not scummy but CTD scummy?

I think CTD is fixated on the idea of PJ being scum at this point in time. I completely understand, considering how I was fixated on Glork. I think Zindaras made a valid point, not that contraicting himself is scummy, but that blowing up a single post is just over-the-top. And this again contradicts with his 'I don't make cases' argument.

^ Note to self: check whether PJ-fixation changes.

- Elaborates on why PJ should think Mert is scummy.
- Vote on SV and townie mert are the same point.
- Explains non-suspicion on bird.
- Elaborates yet again on why PJ should think mert is scummy: for pushing a box execution on D1.

This is weird. So he's saying bird is not scummy because he followed what CTD said? Weird. Note that his stand on bird has not been clearly explained all game. Also note that he thinks mert is scummy for pushing a box execution. The only thing he's said about box is he gives CTD 'townie vibes', which were not clearly explained. So I don't get where this sudden mert-scummy for pushing box execution thing is coming from, considering mert at least put in more effort to make himself heard to the king, compared to CTD's skimpy post.

- Pooky not scum because he posted a long analysis, which pooky does when town.
- Yos: not good case on Yos.
- Thinks SC and Twomz are scummy.
- Yet doesn't think neither is scum.
- Thinks pooky is townier.

Case for SC and Twomz are again the same beaten cases + lurking. He doesn't want both yet he doesn't think neither are scum?!

- Suspicious of MoS because MoS is impressed by CTD, and olio because of MoS buddying.

In all, I don't like CTD at the moment. Things to take note are:
- repeated attack on PJ despite him claiming not to post cases
- argument with Zindaras
- illogical stand regarding pablito
- defense of mert
- unclear stand on bird
- Thinking either Pooky and/or Yos are not scummy, yet not wanting either.
- Repetition of arguments against T and SC.

Mnowax later.

[spectrumvoid]

Things in bullets are points, things unbulleted are my ideas.

[Yosarian2]

Just so everyone knows, I'm going to kill someone tommorow, on the 27'th, probably at about 24 hours from now. (No sense risking my computer dying on the 28th or something and me missing the deadline.) I am still currently leaning towards killing Mnowax, although I do reserve the right to change my mind and kill someone else if he or someone else somehow manages to convince me he's pro-town in the next 24 hours, and I still do want everyone to comment on him that before the lynch. PJ, if your analysis of Mnowax isn't finished yet, just post whatever you have.

[Skruffs]

THat seems fair. I haven't gotten all the way through, I'd prefer it's not me. But I can understand one way or another.

[Yosarian2]

You replaced battlemage, right?

I understand you haven't read all the way though yet, but what do you think about Crash Text Dummies early game posts?

[petroleumjelly]

T_T

Well, I have a criminology essay due tomorrow

and

a debate I need to be prepared for by tomorrow, so I'm not sure if I'll be able to stuff a CTD/Mnowax analysis in before your deadline. I remember trying to get something done on CTD a day or two ago, but isolating his posts (in particular) doesn't seem to be particularly helpful, because I am getting the impression many of his posts are responses to other people. Also, considering the whole Fritzler-CTD interaction that has been mentioned, I feel like in order to do a fair analysis on him, I would have to read his posts

in context

instead of simply isolation, which would (in effect) require rereading much of the game, which I simply do not have time for.

I'll see what I can do, however, but I can't promise I'll be able to have something done by tomorrow.

[Thok]

A couple quick comments:

1. Tomorrow is really busy for me, so there may be a delay of a few hours between when an execution occurs and when the lynch scene goes up.

2. I still do not have a replacement for Battle Mage. (Skruffs is the replacement for Shanba.)

3. Given that it's been almost three weeks and a crash since the last one, you guys get a

Vote Count

King Yosarian2 (2):

List of Execution: MOS, VitaminR, Spectrumvoid, Battle Mage, Mnowax

Battle Mage (7):
Cogito Ergo Sum (2): zindaras, lowell, MOS
Der Hammer (2):
Fritzler (2): Everybody but Fritzler and Yosarian2
KaleiÐoscøpe (2): Battle Mage, Fritzler
Lowell (3): Yosarian2
Mastermind of Sin (4):
Mnowax (6): MOS
petroleumjelly (1):
RafK (2): Yosarian2, Spectrumvoid, CES
Shanba (2): Battle Mage, mnowax, ThAdmiral
spectrumvoid (4): Battle Mage, mos
ThAdmiral (2): Battle Mage, Fritzler, mnowax
Thesp (2): KaleiÐoscøpe, Der Hammer, Battle Mage, DragonsOfSummer, Shanba, Zindaras, mnowax
Toaster Strudel (1): Zindaras, Lowell, Battle Mage, mnowax
VitaminR (2): Spectrumvoid, RafK
Zindaras (4): mnowax, spectrumvoid

[Battle Mage]

fyi-i promised Thok that id continue playing until he found a replacement.
dont expect any long posts out of me, but im still happy to go with a MoS lynch over a Mnowax lynch.

[Mastermind of Sin]

LoL

[Skruffs]

I replaced Shanba - and

Shanba may be replacing me back again.

I was just a placeholder, I guess, until he got done his exams and such.

CTD strikes me as a nervous player, kind of . His first reference to Pookie (the only known assassin so far) is to say he thinks he's protown because he made an analysis post that he agrees with.
Then again, he also said he didn't want you lynched in the same post.
He at first makes a bunch of votes, followed by a lot of posts with quotes and discussion, winding up with just discussion. I'm intrigued why he stopped fossing or voting people he disagreed with; in short, I think he's kind of toeing the line. At least so far.

It's not really fair for me to give one impression on one person, right now, though - give me more itme and I'll get a more conclusive post.

[Yosarian2]

suspense building post

I am going to hammer someone soon, as in, sometime this evening. Anyone else want to put in their two cents, do so fast.

[south park reference]Who will Yosarian hammer? Will it be Mnowax? Battle Mage? Mr Garrison? [/south park reference]

[Mastermind of Sin]

No one on the LoE is nearly as good a choice as mnowax at this point. I don't think Battle Mage is worth the execution, he's getting replaced, so we'll be rid of his troublesome playstyle soon enough.

[Yosarian2]

No one on the LoE is nearly as good a choice as mnowax at this point. I don't think Battle Mage is worth the execution, he's getting replaced, so we'll be rid of his troublesome playstyle soon enough.

Battle mage wasn't on the LOE because of his playstyle, it had more to do with the actions of Smashy and Dead Rikimaru, the people he replaced.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

You should kill MoS, benevolent king.

[mnowax]

Am I walking to the gallows?

Great and I liked this game a lot. I am town though, and you will find that out when i am killed. I don't believe Yos is scum for this though. My suspicions are definitely on MoS and BattleMage. Sorry man you replaced the scummiest person so far in this game. Final words of a Dead Man are true. I hope that my life will be for the good of the Kingdom. Long Live the King!

[petroleumjelly]

All right, starting analysis on CTD/Mnowax, however much I would rather be going out with a few friends right now... this will probably take 1-2 hours, since I think I will need to reread about the first 25 pages of the game (and by reread I mean quickly skim focusing on CTD), and then I'll isolate CTD's posts, then I'll isolate Mnowax's posts, and I'll come to a decision on whether I think he's a good execution today.

[petroleumjelly]

5.) Mnowax

(rep. CrashTextDummie)

Good god, that's a lot of reading. This post will probably be a bit rushed as I'm writing it, since I don't exactly know when Yos2 will be dropping the hammer.

5.) Mnowax

(replacing CrashTextDummie)

Okay, some random votes, voting people for associating with Glork. [Note: This might actually take longer than I expected; I am finding that I tend to stop and read my posts even though I'm looking for CTD's in particular.]

Okay, small bandwagon starting on CTD, from Glork + Fritz + Twomz. And CTD isn't around to react to it, it looks like. Feh. Fritz makes another post asking me to kill CTD.

Post 256 (where he returns after a few pages of being gone) gives no mention to those votes, but his suspicions also seem to be following mine. I was also thinking (and still think as I'm reading) that cb0x was townish, and that Pablito was just plain odd. Returns again in Post 372 after I make my initial LoE, makes no comments on game. And Fritz asks to kill CTD again.

Upon returning again [441], suggests an ultimatum for Bird1111, unvotes Pablito, and votes Ubertimmy for lack of posting (which I find slightly ironic), and once again makes no comments about Fritzler. I'm actually starting to agree that I find it strange he never once asks anything along the lines "so

why

do you want me dead?" by this point. Perhaps he was thinking by ignoring it, it would go away (ala Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal). This particular post looks somewhat lazy. Think I'll give it a slight negative point, but there's nothing outright scummy about it. He also says he will make a more substantive post come deadline.

Oh, man, I'm so brilliant sometimes. *slaps forehead*

CrashTextDummie:

Hunh, I never really realized how few posts CTD has this game. I am actually more used to having CTD present cases against people in particular, and he doesn’t seem to have done that this game. I haven’t caught anything from him that strikes me as scummy, but he also does not strike me as town as he usually does. I will slide him into the neutral category, with a note to myself to poke at him later.

This is actually completely true. I

am

very used to seeing CTD present cases against people, and he oftentimes goes out of his way to attack people who aren't currently under scrutiny. Definitely a discrepancy from his normal playstyle here. However, I think "neutral" would have to be changed to "slightly scummy" at this point, since at that time I had not really considered the Fritzler-CTD in the terms of him purposely ignoring Fritz.

And CTD never did get in that substantive post before deadline. =/ That seems to have been the case with many people, however, so I'll just keep that as neutral – he may have been having a busy week, or something.

Day Two starts off with a Glork/Fritz brining CTD out again. Posts in [557]. Hrm, it's hard to judge these votes in particular – two of them were based off things apparently lost in the crash, the third was on me, and the fourth was on Ubertimmy for lurking. And actually, while reading his response to Pablito, I'm finding him being slightly hypocritical; talking about how I should have been reserving more time for the game than I already was, when CTD himself was hardly ever posting, much less commenting. I agree that I'm too pleased with D1 as a whole, but the fact that he isn't considering the circumstances irks me. [Note: Pablito also freaks me out. Reading his posts makes me feel like a kid who accidentally broke something in a china shop and having my parents explain to the storekeeper that I was trying to be careful. Anyhow...]

Next post appears to be [671], where he only answers a question directed at him from Glork and does not comment on anything else that has happened. And even though he is willing to answer questions put to him, he still doesn't acknowledge Fritz. =/

[726], CTD is again

only

directed at Glork. He seems to be developing a pattern of only actually holding a conversation with Glork, who was the King. Fritz immediately pops in and demands CTD be killed.

[821] just explains all of his votes from [557] again after being poked at by MBL. His comments on other players pretty much look focused on LuckayLuck, who he says he is "not impressed with" (which I find somewhat surprising, since I was

very

impressed with LL's entrance into the game).

I asked him [Twomz] if he had any real reason to vote me other than to satisfy Fritz, to which he responded by asking me if I had given him any reason NOT to vote me. Burden of Proof.

Now this

is

strange. I do now recall him asking that to Twomz – and this is about the most roundabout way you can ignore somebody who is calling for you to die. It appears CTD indeed acknowledges that Fritz wants him dead, but still does not respond to it.

[846] includes a "what do you expect me to do?", which I am seriously considering adding to my list of scum-tells by now. Granted, I can recall plenty of games where townspeople have asked that exact question, but it's usually out of great frustration or to really hit home a point. I'll leave this as neutral, however, though I might have to conduct studies one day on these types of statements. This post is pretty much rehashing why he was voting me at the time.

Okay, I'm at page 35, so I'm just going to isolate posts now – think I've been doing this for an hour and a half. Another post about voting me... when commenting on Mert, he decides he is "reasonably scummy", and he actually provides some sufficient reasoning (although once again, what I may have considered most compelling seems to have been lost in the crash, so I can't judge it's accuracy). Note: attacks Mert, defends SV. Then says neither Pooks nor Yos2 should be executed. Last post of the game makes a comment towards MoS/Olio, which I might have to look at later. I'll have to give this section neutral points overall, but I'm not impressed how he managed to stay out of current discussions, while instead always managing to bring it back to the same topics whenever he posted (while also not responding to Fritz).

Now onto Mnowax.

Votes Smashy [DR], MoS, and Pablito (which looks like a joke suspicion? – can't tell). Nothing too original here, though I find it ironic that he calls MoS 'wagoning' when MoS has not voted the entire game.

Says DoS is scummiest on the list. *Goes to look at list* List was apparently [LL, SV, DoS, CES]. Wish he had provided some reasoning, there's nothing much to comment on here.

Day 4 starts out with voting Smashy again, MoS again, and Toaster Strudel (looks like another joke suspicion, but who knows). Decides to focus on MoS in particular, promising a post to 'prove' it. O.O Oh, and he actually makes a post about MoS (I'll admit I was just figuring it would never happen). Starts off by hitting on the 'not voting' (what I consider a null tell), then the Phoebus defense (I actually agree with him here), quotes a post from Yos2 about MoS saying people are town/scum without backing it up, and seems to see MoS's thinking Yos2 is scummy as OMGUSy. I'm actually going to give this post pro-town points. Although I do not think MoS is scum, Mnowax actually presents a few clear reasons for why he would be suspicious of MoS.

Bah, then he goes into Martyr-mode. I hate it when people do this. Somewhat hypocritical that he calls MoS out for not explaining why he thinks people are town, and yet Mnowax does the same thing when saying VitR and SV "look town", with no substance.

there is nothing that i can say that would change your mind one way or another

. I am Town. That is the only defense that I need.

>< Defeatist attitudes are, so far as I'm concerned, more likely to come from scum. On the other hand, I am modding a number of other games, and I keep seeing things contrary to this. There are probably other factors on whether this is a scumtell, I suppose – like urgency, if they are complaining about other things, etc, but I don't want to sit and think about it right now. I'll call this neutral-slightly-slightly.

There is no case against me. People have pointed out that i have not given out many reasons of why i vote. I really don't have much on anyone, other than MoS. I have already given my reasons on that. I am not speaking much because i am having such a hard time getting a read on anyone.

Is there any thing else you would like to know?

And slowly getting worse. "There is no case against me" is clearly silly, and overly dismissive. "I really don't have much on anyone" (for somebody who has been here for about 4 months) is either incredibly lazy, scummy, or both. This is

almost

to the point of saying "I don't find anybody scummy", but that tell doesn't exactly apply here because he

is

at the very least taking a stance on MoS. Continues to talk about the fact that he has 'nothing to say', and that he is beating a dead horse.

Okay, thought-collecting time.

Mnowax is striking me as somewhat scummy – I don't particularly like his level of participation, nor do I like his defeatist attitude and lack of substantive comments. His claimed suspicion on MoS seems a bit convenient in the sense that MoS is attacking him, and his first response seems to be reciprocation. His post explaining his vote on MoS, however, strikes me as legit. I'm actually fairly conflicted so far as his posts go.

CTD's posts are in fact not really in accordance with what I would normally expect from him. I do know that in other games he was not posting as much as usual either, but in those games I am still fairly confident when he did post it was more substance than what he offered for much of this game. I don't feel like I can accurately comment on a number of his votes, because many of them were based on things lost in the crash, which I have forgotten much of by this point. I agree with others that his worst feature by far is his strange constant dismissal of Fritz, which I am going to have to label as slightly scummy to just plain scummy considering this was going on for well over 30 pages.

Overall, I don't think he would be a bad execution.

*drops dead from exhaustion*

[Yosarian2]

Hehe...thanks, PJ, appriciate the analysis. Sounds a lot like my own thoughts.

Anyone else have any final comments they want to make in the next few minutes?

[Fritzler]

are we finally killing CTD?

yessssssssssssssssss