Mini 579 - The Plagues of Egypt Mafia - Over

[lord_hur]

But it is not anti-Town to want to kill a player who is hurting the town regardless of their alignment.

I don't care who agrees with you, this is scum logic. Though mislynches happen, I would prefer to never lynch a townie, regardless of their play style.

Of course. Lynching anti-town should *only* take place when town has no real lead on who scum might be. I actually wrote this in my last post, but erased it right before posting, as it sounded so obvious.

Beside, tVoD is not hurting the town in any way that I can see.

While I agre with the reasoning, I don't think VOD should die because of it. I think it should only be used in serious cases, and he is just not one of them.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

lord_hur why are you supporting Mr Stoofer?
If he wishes to just lynch someone for being anti town without actually hunting for scum then that is plain ole scummy behaviour to me.

[Guardian]

Like I said, I was not thinking that at the time I posted it, but I do now remember you saying you were wrong; however, how does that change anything?

stoofer, could you have a shot at answering this again? like, what are the differences in what I should be thinking if I did know vs. if I didn't? Why is it significant my analysis that I knew you took it bacK?

[lord_hur]

lord_hur why are you supporting Mr Stoofer?
If he wishes to just lynch someone for being anti town without actually hunting for scum then that is plain ole scummy behaviour to me.

Re-read post 200 :

- in part 2, I say I agree with his reasoning, NOT his conclusions (not now, not later, unless you go lurking for a long time or your posts' quality decrease in a substancial way).

- in part 1, I say this should only be used as a last resort. If Mr Stoofer tried to use it right now to get you lynched, I'd be on his back like a rabid dog. At the moment though, he's not trying to actively influence people, he is just answering questions.

[Mr Stoofer]

Like I said, I was not thinking that at the time I posted it, but I do now remember you saying you were wrong; however, how does that change anything?

stoofer, could you have a shot at answering this again? like, what are the differences in what I should be thinking if I did know vs. if I didn't? Why is it significant my analysis that I knew you took it bacK?

What I meant was this: there is a big difference between (a) making a point about another player, listening to the guy's defence, thinking about it, and then saying "OK, I don't think my point was a good one"; and (b) making a point about another player and sticking to your guns even when it becomes clear that you are wrong.

Case (b) is well worth a vote (even a lynch on Day 1) while case (a) is much less lynch-worthy. So I wanted to make sure you realised my point about lord_hur falls into case (a).

On the tvod debate, I want to make myself clear. I think he is scum because, amongst other reasons, of his (1) awful logic (which he simply says is "quirky") and (2) When he FoS-es people, I don't think he is being honest (i.e. he doesn't sound like he is convinced by what he says, he sounds to me like he is just trying to find any reason to cast suspicion on whomever he can. That is a strong scum tell, because whenever scum FoS/vote someone, they know that the person they are voting is not scum.)

[Musher333]

Well, I just wanted to make sure you knew, and that you weren't voting for me under a misapprehension. (Although to be honest I'd rather you weren't voting for me at all.)

@SlySly: you have understood my post about tvod correctly. But it is not anti-Town to want to kill a player who is hurting the town regardless of their alignment. Click here for a thread where lots of people express the view that killing players who are hurting the Town is a good idea regardless of their alignment. See posts 1, 2, 3, 6, 7, 8, 12, 15, 20, 21 -- all of which agree with me that sometime you have to have a lynch of the player that is not helping the Town. See especially 20 and 21, made by me before I got my role PM in this game.

I don't see where tVoD has actually hurt town that much, i know at the start he was throwing FoS's around like there was no tomorrow but to me that isn't a reason to lynch town. Lynching town because they have a bad start is a realy scummish response.

Vote Mr Stoofer

[Musher333]

That is a strong scum tell, because whenever scum FoS/vote someone, they know that the person they are voting is not scum.)

So how does this differ if you are the scum? Like you said scum voting for people know that the person they vote for isn't scum. Unless you are scum you don't know who the scum are so your reasoning could apply to any vote that is being cast at the moment.

[undo]

Not voting:

hasdgfas, PyroDwarf, Shin Hatsubai

With 11 alive, it's

6 to lynch

.

[Mr Stoofer]

The difference is this. When a Townie says "I think X is Scum", then he is saying something which he

believes

is true. When a Scum says "I think X is Scum" then (unless X is his scumbuddy) he is saying something which he

knows

is false.

So if you see a person saying "I think X is Scum" but he doesn't sound convinced by his own argument, then that is a strong Scum tell. Townies might be wright or wrong in their suspicions, but they ought to be convinced by their suspicions before posting them.

The vibe I get from tvod is that he is not convinced by his own arguments. This is a point I made ages ago.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

I happily admit some of my early FoSes were rather flippant and may have come across as a little bit scummish but that was an early game style thing I explained. Is my early play and different from lord_hurs early speculation?
From Post 204 you seem to have done a) with lord_hur and b) with me. And I dont believe any is more vote worthy. Rather in context either can be worthy of a vote.

[Guardian]

Until school's out (Early May), expect my dedication to mafiascum to suffer, perhaps greatly. Then I'll have little access at all for a week. Then I'll be back in full swing. I'm posting this notice in all games I'm playing; sorry if my activity suffers.

[Guardian]

tvod, I want you to quote and respond to post 203.

Stoofer, that's nice and all, but between scenarios a) push crap logic on a townie and later retract it and b) push crap logic on a townie and keep pushing, the person is pushing crap logic in both cases.

Do you think that you were pushing crap logic? Do you think you fall under a), then? What, in your own words, made you retract it? Feel free to link me to a post where you explained this, if you have.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

Re-read post 200 :

- in part 2, I say I agree with his reasoning, NOT his conclusions (not now, not later, unless you go lurking for a long time or your posts' quality decrease in a substancial way).

- in part 1, I say this should only be used as a last resort. If Mr Stoofer tried to use it right now to get you lynched, I'd be on his back like a rabid dog. At the moment though, he's not trying to actively influence people, he is just answering questions.

respond.

Guardian I would like you to quote and respond to post 212?

Sorry I dont get what you are saying.

[Guardian]

Re-read post 200 :

- in part 2, I say I agree with his reasoning, NOT his conclusions (not now, not later, unless you go lurking for a long time or your posts' quality decrease in a substancial way).

- in part 1, I say this should only be used as a last resort. If Mr Stoofer tried to use it right now to get you lynched, I'd be on his back like a rabid dog. At the moment though, he's not trying to actively influence people, he is just answering questions.

respond.

Guardian I would like you to quote and respond to post 212?

Sorry I dont get what you are saying.

I'd like you to say why you thought what you thought in 201, and what you think about lord_hur's interpretation in 203, and if this changes your stance at all that you set forth in 201, and if so how.

Also, why did you initially think what you thought in 201, if your stance changes?

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

You ask a lot of me kind sir and I would be happy to help.
My stance on Mr Stoofer is he seems to be the most likely scum. Those supporting his arguments or his position I will find slightly scummy.
lord_hurs post is a bit wierd in that he says I support his theory but not his application. This is a strange way of defending someone. Also it gives lord_hur an excuse not to be on the back of Mr Stoofer.
Post 203 has only made me more suspicious of lord_hurs behaviour towards Mr Stoofer.

So Mr Stoofer has had a big go at me and said I should die regardless of alignment
places a very weak vote on hgsfsdds (or whatever his name)
and then when question about his desire to have me dead regardless of alignment he defends this position with some link to some debate which I dont think supports his position too well
(also I found the other link to the wiki was similar to Mr Stoofers position but did not clear him)
now he says I think tVoD is scum because while still having a vote on hasddgaf for a stupid reason.

I find myself asking this question yet agian What is the possibility he is a Jester?
I have no idea how good a player he is but from what I have seen he does not appear to be that worried about doing stupid things.

[Guardian]

tvod, thanks for um, at the very least, trying to respond to what I asked about.

tvod, is English your first language?

[lord_hur]

My stance on Mr Stoofer is he seems to be the most likely scum. Those supporting his arguments or his position I will find slightly scummy.
lord_hurs post is a bit wierd in that he says I support his theory but not his application. This is a strange way of defending someone. Also it gives lord_hur an excuse not to be on the back of Mr Stoofer.
Post 203 has only made me more suspicious of lord_hurs behaviour towards Mr Stoofer.

1. Where the hell did you get that I'm trying to defend him in the first place ? (same question than Guardian I know, but you didn't answer him)

2. Mr Stoofer stated an existing theory that is clearly very debated. So there are tons of people agreeing or disagreeing with it. Why would you blame anyone for just stating their opinion ?

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

English is my first language, I think it is hard to understand as I write train of thought sometimes and dont go back and edit my posts I am also sick with glandular fever so I am very tired and at times don't put super energy into my posts to present them all nice and well spoken.


My observation about lord_hur is this...
He defends the theory of lynching anti town players but does not agree with Mr Stoofers application of this theory towards me. SO I think I got the defending him slightly wrong as it was not a direct defence but more a I support his Theory.

I am of the impression that supporting the theory is irrelavent as if it is not used in the correct situation then it is pointless to say yeah ok thats a good theory (supporting someone) but it is not the right application in this case (oh well).

[Mr Stoofer]

tvod, I want you to quote and respond to post 203.

Stoofer, that's nice and all, but between scenarios a) push crap logic on a townie and later retract it and b) push crap logic on a townie and keep pushing, the person is pushing crap logic in both cases.

Do you think that you were pushing crap logic? Do you think you fall under a), then? What, in your own words, made you retract it? Feel free to link me to a post where you explained this, if you have.

Well I don't agree I was pushing crap logic. I made a perfectly valid point, pointing out what appeared to me to be a recognised scum tell. Remember, we were on page 1 or 2 and one has to look very hard for scum tells at that stage. And it's not as if I said "OMFG, I've found scum!!!". I just pointed out a known scum tell.

It was following further discussion and thought I decided that it was not a particularly strong scum tell in this instance: see Post 111 where I explained why. Basically, I believe lord_hur when he says he was making wild (and inaccurate) guesses.

[Mr Stoofer]

Oh and I forgot to

unvote: hasdgfas,

vote: thevampireofdussledorf

[Singing Librarian]

Every time I read through this game, or any part of it, it makes my head hurt. I'm beginning to wonder whether I find tvod scummy partly because it takes me so long to even begin to fathom what he's talking about.

tvod, please please please edit and re-read your posts. It would really help us all.

[thevampireofdusseldorf]

No posting oh well.....

mod

are some prods in order yet?

[undo]

hasdgfas, PyroDwarf and Shin Hatsubai will be prodded now.

[Musher333]

I know this is going to sound odd but is this argument primarily by VoD ans Stoofer going to get anywhere or will they just continuously question the same things and reply the same things to each other?

[Mr Stoofer]

Well my strong preference is to lynch tvod today. But if we can't do that I'd be onboard for a SlySly lynch or hasdgfas. Whatever, let's just get the game moving.