Mini 1304: Mastin's Mafia--Game Over

[Amrun]

http://www.quicktopic.com/47/H/ZNF84x5pGXHg

[Haylen]

Oh my god, I can't believe it's over.

[mastin2]

Sorry to have left you hanging. (No pun intended, in Pine's case. ) I figured posting the scene (rushed as it was) and opening the topic before I left was better than leaving the game without a conclusion for five or so hours. Now that I'm back, though...

I'll address specific people later. In the mean time...

---

Roles

Mafia Cop
Mafia Goon x 2

Doctor
Roleblocker
Miller
VT x 7

Distribution:

1. Pine - VT
2. Christmas 26 (Amrun) - VT
3. Zombeh-Pug (callforjudgement) - VT
4. Haylen - Mafia Cop
5. dybeck (MagnaofIllusion) - Town Doctor
6. toxictaipan - VT
7. Lastsurvivor - VT
8. Raivann - VT
9. Yuchai - Mafia Goon
10. dicknose (Oversoul) - Miller
11. Edward White (Battousai) - VT
12. Bub Bidderskins - Town Roleblocker
13. mafia-n00b - Mafia Goon

Role PMs

Spoiler: Mafia

Hello, and welcome to Mini 1304: Mastin's Mini Mafia, *

mafia-n00b

*!

You are a

Mafia Goon

! Your buddies are

*Yuchai*

, a

Mafia Goon

such as yourself, and

*Haylen*

, who is a

Mafia Cop

. You may talk here during the night with your fellow mafiates. As a group, you may select one member to carry out a kill against one person of your choosing. (I will accept choices in the Quicktopic that are bolded, but PMs are harder to miss.)

As with all members of the town, you possess your Voice and your Vote, though you use your Instincts and Intuitions for a different win condition...

You are aligned with the

mafia

. You win when your faction comprises of 50% of all living players or nothing can prevent this.

Please confirm in the thread that you've read and understand your role PM. The Game Thread can be found here.

Good luck and have fun!

(Don't ask me why the asterisks weren't removed. It was of course originally *Playername*, *X*, and *Y*.)

Hello, and welcome to Mini 1304: Mastin's Mini Mafia, *

Yuchai

*!

You are a

Mafia Goon

! Your buddies are

*mafia-n00b*

, a

Mafia Goon

such as yourself, and

*Haylen*

, who is a

Mafia Cop

. You may talk here during the night with your fellow mafiates. As a group, you may select one member to carry out a kill against one person of your choosing. (I will accept choices in the Quicktopic that are bolded, but PMs are harder to miss.)

As with all members of the town, you possess your Voice and your Vote, though you use your Instincts and Intuitions for a different win condition...

You are aligned with the

mafia

. You win when your faction comprises of 50% of all living players or nothing can prevent this.

Please confirm in the thread that you've read and understand your role PM. The Game Thread can be found here.

Good luck and have fun!

Hello, and welcome to Mini 1304: Mastin's Mini Mafia, *

Haylen

*!

You are a

Mafia Sane Cop

! Your buddies are

*Yuchai*

and

*mafia-n00b*

, both

Mafia Goons

. You may talk here during the night with your fellow mafiates. As a group, you may select one member to carry out a kill against one person of your choosing. (I will accept choices in the Quicktopic that are bolded, but PMs are harder to miss.) You are permitted to both kill and investigate during the same night.

You may target one person per night and determine if they are town or scum. Your sanity is guaranteed. And as with all other members of the town, you possess a Voice and a Vote to use as you see fit, guided by Instinct and Intuition.

You are aligned with the

mafia

. You win when your faction comprises of 50% of all living players or nothing can prevent this.

Please confirm in the thread that you've read and understand your role PM. The Game Thread can be found here.

Good luck and have fun!

Spoiler: Town

Hello, and welcome to Mini 1304: Mastin's Mini Mafia, *

dicknose

*! (Oversoul)

You are a

Miller

! You will show up as scum to any and all cop investigations. Other than that, you have no special qualities--merely a Voice and a Vote, backed up by your Instincts and Intuition.

You are aligned with the

town

. You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one member of the town is still alive.

Please confirm in the thread that you've read and understand your role PM. The Game Thread can be found here.

Good luck and have fun!

Hello, and welcome to Mini 1304: Mastin's Mini Mafia, *

dybeck

*! (MagnaofIllusion)

You are a

Doctor

! You may protect one person per night from any and all nightkills other than yourself. Use your Voice and your Vote productively, and may your Instincts/Intuition serve you well!

You are aligned with the

town

. You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one member of the town is still alive.

Please confirm in the thread that you've read and understand your role PM. The Game Thread can be found here.

Good luck and have fun!

Hello, and welcome to Mini 1304: Mastin's Mini Mafia, *

Bub Bidderskins

*!

You are a

Roleblocker

! You may block one person per night, and any action that they would have taken will be prevented. Use your Voice and your Vote productively, and may your Instincts/Intuition serve you well!

You are aligned with the

town

. You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one member of the town is still alive.

Please confirm in the thread that you've read and understand your role PM. The Game Thread can be found here.

Good luck and have fun!

The rest were the VT PM on the first page, like this:

Hello, and welcome to Mini 1304: Mastin's Mini Mafia, *

Edward White

*! (Amrun, in this case.)

You are a

Vanilla Townie

! Your only weapons are your Instinct, Intuition, Voice, and your Vote.

You are aligned with the

town

. You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one member of the town is still alive.

Please confirm in the thread that you've read and understand your role PM. The Game Thread can be found here.

Good luck and have fun!

Note that all replacements had the silly asterisks removed when I sent them their replacement PMs.

Mafia QT: http://www.quicktopic.com/47/H/ff3tMXPjBmS
Dead QT: http://www.quicktopic.com/47/H/ZNF84x5pGXHg
Mod QT to come in my next post. Standby for post-game notes.

Actions

Includes some commentary written at the time.

Spoiler: night 1

Bub Bidderskins--Roleblock: Edward White.
dybeck--Protect: Bub Bidderskins.
(Smart guy.)

Haylen--Investigate: toxictaipan.
mafia-n00b--Kill: Amrun.

Spoiler: night 2

Bub Bidderskins--Roleblock: mafia-n00b.
dybeck--Protect: Haylen.
mafia-n00b--Kill: Pine. (Will not succeed, due to Roleblock.)
Haylen--Investigate: Zombeh-Pug.

(Note, it was a moderator oversight to have not realized Zombeh-Pug and callforjudgement were one and the same. )

Spoiler: night 3

dybeck--Protect: Haylen. Again.
Oversoul--Curse: At the lynch going through. (:P)

Haylen--Kill: toxictaipan (proxy; Haylen can override)

Yuchai--Kill: callforjudgement.
Bub Bidderskins--Roleblock: mafia-n00b.
Haylen--Investigate: Oversoul.

Spoiler: night 4

Bub Bidderskins--No Action. (I...really don't understand why. What harm could come from roleblocking? Okay, so he could roleblock MoI, and from his perspective, roleblocking Haylen would be bad, but anyone else would be only beneficial for the town.)
MagnaofIllusion--Protect: Haylen.
Haylen--Investigate: Yuchai.
Haylen--Kill: Bub Bidderskins.

Spoiler: night 5

MagnaofIllusion--Protect: Haylen. (He sent in a lot of logic, and I'll do my best to incorporate it into the flavor.)
Haylen--Investigate: MagnaofIllusion.
Mafia Faction, via Haylen--Kill: toxictaipan.

[mastin2]

Post-Game Notes

The Setup

:

Now that you can see all the roles, I think you can get a good idea of what my intention was--all the way back during December (or was it July/August? I was on vacation at the time) when the limit on Minis was still 12 players, and Yosarian2 was fiercely debating about how cops in a Normal should be allowed to be alignments other than Sane.

That got me thinking, and eventually, I decided to play around with the idea of typical role interactions--Cop, Doctor, and Roleblocker are all typical roles in a game, and people expect for the roleblocker to be the scum in the group. What if it were a different role, though?

In this case, it was the Cop. The setup more or less revolved around the role of a Mafia Sane Cop, with all the other roles related to it. (Originally, there was a vig, to give credence to a Serial Killer angle, but it was dropped. A Double-Voter was also present when I hit the review group, as my previous reviewer thought it was too scum-sided without an additional town PR.)

The end result was the setup we ended up with--and while a little bit swingy, it was technically balanced, with both factions standing a fair chance of winning even during the last days. I'm not entirely sure the game was approved for balance (you'd have to ask my reviewers--asking LlamaFluff would probably be the best bet), but more or less, it was said there (and I fully agreed with it) that the odds for the game outcome were something like this:
5 crushing scum wins
9 scum wins
11 close scum wins
11 close town wins
9 town wins
5 crushing town wins

...Whereas if it were ideally balanced, it'd be this:
1 crushing scum win
9 scum wins
15 close scum wins
15 close town wins
9 town wins
1 crushing town win

...And I feel the results of the game reflected this--both factions ended up with a fair chance to win, with neither side gaining a huge advantage even in the end. The review perfectly was reflected in the game, where the scum used their role perfectly, yet despite that, the town PRs were played in such a masterful way that they were in an excellent position to decimate the scum, having eluded detection for most of the game and done loads of damage.

Swingy, but balanced overall, with neither faction having the edge.

Another thing which I liked about the idea in the setup (though it was completely unintentional) was the fact that the typical mechanics of the sides were inverted: in a normal game, the mafia tend to dominate the night play, where they have the advantage; the town tends to dominate the day play, where

they

have the advantage. That's the way the game was meant to work.

...But during

this

game, it was the other way around--the scum held the advantage during the day, but during the night, they were DANGEROUSLY close to losing the game multiple times due to the roles, which hindered them. It was neat, and I like the mechanic involved. (Though I have no intention to replicate it in the near-future. )

All-in-all, it turned out pretty much the way I wanted it to, with things being capable of going either way even to the end.

My Moderating

:

Of course, I do have to apologize for the rather embarrassing start to the game. That is, with Zito having been the one who actually started the topic and all that. V/LA was a killer for me, and during times, my modding was suffering due to circumstances completely out of my control. (Though sometimes, it was more due to differing timezones, with the playerlist active at times I was preoccupied and me having a ton of time free when nobody was posting in my game. There's really not much I can do to change that. )

I did my best despite the circumstances, and I'd like to think that I had a rather strong votecount format overall, and posted more or less whenever it was needed.

I multiple times was late on starting/ending the days, despite having set deadlines which were built around my schedule, and was quite...lax...in handing out prods at multiple times, with the largest delay of course being the start of the game (in which I didn't even have the archive ready, a further inconvenience to the players), so all of that I should apologize for.

I still feel like that I coulda done better, partially due to, well, the lack of flavor; I got lynch scenes fine, but I never got the chance to make the coherent story I was aiming for, with flavor at every votecount and every mod announcement.

And once the 500 server came up, I feared writing flavor too long for the posts to handle, sacrificing my strongest point in modding (writing flavor) in favor of...anticlimatic scenes.

All in all, I'd like to think I did a decent job modding, but I'm a bit disappointed in myself for not having put in the 125% effort I was hoping to do.

Flavor

:

Already partially covered in the above sections, I'd still like to ask people what they thought of the flavor when I could actually get some up. I didn't get the coherent story that I originally had hoped for, but I still put a lot of work into the flavor I wrote, especially near the end, where I greatly increased the length of the PMs I sent everyone. (Including the customized death PMs, which apparently a lot of people like--they're the only thing I did well when modding off-site. ) But I'd still like to ask everyone what they thought overall of the flavor.

Play In General

:

In general, I don't really think the town played

badly

this game, but they didn't exactly play well. I gave you guys almost three-week deadlines, and only during one of the gamedays did that time even approach close to being used up; most of the days ended in less than two weeks.

So I suppose in general, you could say the town rushed, jumping to conclusions a little...hastily...whereas had they thought things through, a more logical approach would have shed light on things.

I'd also like to say that--while their performance wasn't absolutely perfect--the mafia definitely played a far stronger game overall. Their interactions and their usage of their role were both brilliant, and gave them an instant edge on the town. They also had a decent understanding of what the setup was like: they might not have known the who, but they had a fairly strong idea of what kind of roles would be present in the game, allowing themselves to tailor their actions accordingly.

As the below sections illustrate, I also feel that the level of devotion to my game was overall disappointingly low, even before the crash--that level of apathy gave the scum already in the lead an increasingly large edge over the town, until the less apathetic players stepped up.

Players

:

I've noted a trend for a lot of mods to be...less than gracious...when dealing with their constructive criticism, so I will try to avoid too many unkind words when addressing the eighteen or so players who were a part of the game. But needless to say, some players were stronger than others.

Christmas26:

Apologies that you were replaced; I saw you posting after the game had started, so I hope you continue to play.

Zombeh:

If you ever come back and read this, and become active on-site again...You're actually a fairly strong player, when you're actively posting. My memory's a little bit hazy, but I seem to recall that you were onto the trail of at least one or two of our mafia team, and had you continued to post, and if you became active in games, I think you'd be an awesome person to play with. Basically, posting more often with more content, and avoiding site-flakes like you did here, and you'd be good to go.

dicknose:

I continue to believe that--while others might not particularly like you--that you have the makings of an incredibly strong player, and I was saddened that I needed to have you replaced.

dybeck:

Don't play power roles as if you were scum. You were among their PR suspects, so the strategy to lay low didn't work as well for you as it did for Bub. It also made you look incredibly suspicious in the eyes of the town--and while that secured that you would not be nightkilled (allowing you to continue to use your protection), it also opened up the risk of you being lynched, a risk which your successor MoI paid the price for.

Your idea was good, and it kinda worked--your slot lived to the endgame, where it was made gamebreakingly powerful. Most towns don't have a doctor past days 2 or 3, yet alone, 5. It's just that MoI really suffered for it in the long-run.

Edward White:

The only advice I can really give you is to lurk less, and to do your best to contribute more. You really hurt Battousai's slot, creating a lot of doubt on him which he could not escape from.

Raivann:

Your play kinda reminded me of my play when I was younger in the game, so to speak, in my 20s or 30s with regards to how many games I'd played. While it's nothing that I, personally, would have an issue with as a player (it takes one to appreciate one), let's just say I tended to get lynched a lot, despite my tendency to bring up valid points. I was too chaotic. Try getting a little more organized, and you'll instantly find people will find you less scummy.

Amrun:

You did good while you were here; it was a shame to see you die so quickly in the game. I'm not really sure I can give much advice to you; given how short your time with us was, there really isn't much to say beyond that.

Battousai:

Sorry that you replaced into a bad slot which you couldn't recover from. Your posts were full of strong logic, and you were a voice of reason in the town. I feel your largest mistake was your willingness to sacrifice yourself--while quite noble (and a huge towntell), the town was a little too eager to take you up on your offer, and the scum were allowed to take advantage of it.

Lastsurvivor:

I'm afraid from memory, I can't really offer you much advice. I think you were maybe a little bit too impulsive (similar to Raivann), and as noted in your lynch scene, you ironically ended up in much the same position as the people you had pushed strongly to lynch. I wish I could give you better advice.

callforjudgement:

You fared better than Battousai did--you turned what once was a fairly scummy slot into virtually confirmed town with your play, and I think it served you well. You were a strong player, so I'm not sure there's much advice I can give to you.

mafia-n00b:

For a newb, you did spectacularly. You made a lot of enemies (which sped up the process which ended up causing your demise), and in general were seen as quite suspicious. You should basically focus on improving your day play--but that said, you did things excellently in the night play, using the quicktopic as much as you could, exploiting the setup as much as you could. Your questions to me showed that you quite clearly had a plan, and you used the experience of your scumbuddies giving their insight to solidify it.

And after that, despite being the scummier of the two cops, you still managed to squeeze by for two days (and might have even gotten another had it not been for Bub Bidderskins' roleblock of you), when you should have been lynched day two. That was impressive. And when it came time to lynch one of the cops, you made sure (despite how people were beginning to suspect Haylen) that it would be you that'd be lynched, rather than her.

Bub Bidderskins:

You played perfectly. You instantly locked onto mafia-n00b's weakness, and managed to stop the scum's kill, which ensured that the town got an extra day or two, which greatly increased their odds of winning. Beyond that, you even managed to elude their PR senses better than dybeck/MoI did, as to my knowledge, you weren't among their strong PR reads. Laying low for as long as you did, without once being brought up as a nightkill choice, made you able to survive long enough to do what you needed to do--and it was because of your efforts that the town got their first scum lynch. There's not much you could have done better, though I still don't understand your choice to not roleblock someone the night you died.

toxictaipan:

Lurk less. That's a common factor in many of the players, in that had they been more active and been posting content, a lot of the suspicion on them wouldn't have existed. You were multiple times brought up as a candidate for scum due to an overall weaker presence, in my opinion, causing you to be suspected not so much for what you were saying, but rather, for how little you had been able to say.

You were still brought up as a kill candidate, and did eventually get nightkilled, but none of the times it was brought up was it because the scum thought you were a pro-town player--you kinda were, but again, you need more of a presence in a game.

Yuchai:

I realize that it worked out for you quite well due to your alignment, but you were among the lurkers--it was strategic in your case, and it did get you pretty much a free pass to the endgame, but if you were to display that same attitude as town, quite frankly, you'd probably have died a lot sooner. You really should be more active in games overall. That said, since it worked out fairly well, I can't really give you much criticism.

Haylen:

As with Yuchai, your inactivity in this game could have been partially strategic, so I can't really say you should have done it less. And of course, real life probably did legitimately interfere, but had you been town this game, you would have been a lot weaker than I know you're capable of.

That said, you did use your role pretty much perfectly: as commented in the graveyard, you made 'dumb decisions' on your cop play, and while at one point it almost backfired (Day Four), for the most part, your less-than-ideal cop choices kept there from being too many confirmed town like you had been worried about, which played greatly to your favor, so you did quite well in that regard.

Oversoul:

More than any other player, your apathy in the game was the most costly, as you yourself noted. You let townreads of yours get lynched with almost zero fight on your part, and most of the game you just kept on coasting by, never having truly gotten into the groove.

This also cost you severely, as people began to suspect that the claimed miller was in fact actually a goon, which the scum used quite well to their advantage--instead of being confirmed town (their worst enemy when it came to POE), you filled the gaps in players' scumteams. I feel that had you given this game your all from the start, that the scum might have viewed you as confirmed town (the last thing they needed around during endgame), or even better, the town (who would therefore cast some suspicion on the other 'confirmed town' around).

Pine:

I'm, uh...not sure what to say. You certainly weren't apathetic, I'll give you that. If anything, you might have had the opposite problem, getting a little...

too

invested in the game. Including with your reads, as you were, uh...a little bit too fond of them, to say the least. In fact, your play was much like that of Lastsurvivor and maybe Raivann (going from memory on those two), in that it was overly aggressive and assertive--it kept you from being lynched, and--heck--even earned you a nightkill (which failed) from the scum, so in that way, it was good, that you were a threat to them due to your style.

...But there's a reason that after the failed nightkill, they never tried again. And as a hint, it wasn't because they thought you were protected. This was particularly bad on day five--there was zero pro-town reason not to no-lynch with a claimed doctor, as the results from the night helped prove, but your stubbornness kept you from realizing that.

MagnaofIllusion:

First off, I'd like to apologize. When you offered to cross-replace, you thought you were giving me the short-end of the stick. As it turns out, we pretty much equally screwed each other over. You replaced into a heavily-suspected slot, as a PR, with no access to the previous thread, in a setup which you didn't quite understand. That was a tough situation to be in, but all things said, I think you did a fairly good job when doing so. You came up with a fairly good strategy which the scum were quite worried about, as it risked outing them if they took the wrong action during the night.

It's just that you and Pine are...shall we say...Not So Different; your conflicting-yet-similar styles and approach to the game made it harder on both of you than it had to have been.

Modding Notes Critique

:

It's my first time having actually done real mod notes, so I hope you like what you see; many mods don't have strong post-game notes, and I'm hoping to not be among their ranks; what do you think overall?

Final Wrap

:

I probably won't be moderating for some time in the future, for better or for worse. Every game I've gotten thought up (unless I could make the EpicMafia game normal ) with one or two (Large instead of Mini ) exceptions would be a Mini Theme. Not a bad place for me, since I love to write flavor, but in general, games are a LOT of stress on me (due to how much effort I put in), and besides. I've only got three setups finalized. Two of them are mean-mod games (meaning I shouldn't run them until I'm a more veteran moderator, to not only make sure I have the experience to handle them but also to ensure I don't get a reputation as a mean mod ), and the third's based off of my book which hasn't even been finished, yet, so can't exactly run that. I hope I wasn't a disappointment and if I WERE to run another game some time in the future, the people here would be more than willing to play in it.

Anyway, you can find my modding QT here, where much of the above can be found throughout the QT.

[mastin2]

When the Night didn't immediately get put up I was afraid this was happening ...

I *was* a little short on time, so I didn't exactly have as much time as I'd have liked to have written flavor. Had the game continued to night, it's very possible I mighta taken just as much time.

I was worried there was a tracker lurking around, possibly Oversoul being an SK/Survivor Tracker pulling a no kill gambit until the end.

Always an SK-suspect, eh, Oversoul? More seriously, had the setup gone through as originally intended, there would have been a vig thrown in specifically to LOOK like a Serial Killer. Had the Mafia Sane Cop died, then, the town would have INSTANTLY thought their 'vig' was a serial killer. In the end, though, it wasn't part of the core setup, so was dropped.

What the hell is a Sane Cop for?

More or less explained in the notes--to mess with the classic "Doctor, Cop, Roleblocker" combo, and had there been a vig, to make the town doubt said vig's credibility.

Good play though. Definitely deserve the win.

This was more or less my thought--I felt the scum earned their win pretty handily, with all the members playing their part.

No one would have gone with [lynching Yuchai].

Well, the scum couldn't (Haylen couldn't without revealing she lied about Yuchai's alignment, Yuchai wouldn't), but MoI woulda. Granted, you probably never would've gotten Pine, as he'd see you two voting Yuchai as all the confirmation he needed that you two were the scumteam.

Glad nobody read too much into that.

I know I as a moderator already knew, but even as a player, I think I woulda seen that and instantly realized what was going on. It seemed painfully obvious to me, at least.

"Maybe BOTH MN and Haylen are scum".

Thoughts like this were ones which I were hoping you'd have--especially after the should-have-been-dead Yuchai lived in lylo, and Haylen had investigated every player except for one. POE was a killer for the scum, in that at any time, they could have risked confirming too many players as town. And if Yuchai (the weakest surviving link in the scumteam) were to be lynched, Haylen would take the fall with him. And you have to give the scum credit--the double-cop-claim was incredibly risky (as what would happen if there was another cop?), and well-played overall. I figured something like that *could* happen, but I knew that it could go horribly wrong--if the fake cop lived and the real Mafia Sane Cop were lynched, the fake cop would be under heavy suspicion, as "Mafia Sane Cop" to me would SCREAM "No real cop". Plus, the move would end up costing the scum one of their players guaranteed, and the surviving cop would therefore have to fight through POE--and said POE was made worse by the fact that the town had two roles to stop kills, prolonging the game.

It was incredibly risky, and it paid off. (Side-note--the setup reviewers DID mention the possibility of having all 3 as Mafia Goons, but being given inside information of, "You know there is no cop in the game". I was against the idea, and I think that had that happened, they would have actually had a far easier time winning than they did.)

[mastin2]

Oh my god, I can't believe it's over.

I know the feeling.

It does feel like a heavy burden has been lifted off of my chest, though.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well now that I have gotten to read the QTs and see the set-up I have the following comments -

1. The outcome is not unexpected. Yes the set-up was interestingly crafted but in the end a set-up that features all Information roles being Mafia aligned is going to be won by Mafia 95% of the time. Yes, I know the normal review group did projections and showed it was swingy but that sort of set-up cuts enough against site norms that it isn't going to be won by Town often at all. Especially in a 'Normal' game with the inherent expectation of the extra review level. The last game I remember with All-Scum information roles and no Town information roles was Ooba's Large Theme 'Mad World Time Travel' game. The only reason scum might have lost that was due to the almost win of a Serial Killer.

This isn't a criticism of the set-up itself. It looks balanced. Mods when designing have a hard time distancing themselves from the inherent inside information they have when forming the game. From a Town Uninformed perspective seeing a Town Rolelblocker flip and knowing you are a Town Doctor with Cop (counterclaimed by scum already flipped) and Miller claims the most logical conclusion isn't "Mafia Cop and no other Powerroles".

There is only a certain level of "wild ass speculation", as I call it, that you can reasonable expect Town to realistically and honestly undertake. I think a set-up along these lines requires more than is likely to happen.

2. I made three big mistakes in my play this game all of which might have altered the course of the game.

A. Not Protecting Bud the Night after Mafia-noob flipped - I toyed with trying to outwifom the scum and protect the outed Town Power-role (it wasn't confirmed but his play and the claimed results did not support him being gambitting scum) as opposed to Haylen. Mastin can attest to this.

B. Reading too much into my inside information - I knew from my role PM that Haylen had been protected N2. The no-kill then fed into my "Haylen is Town" read. I too easily dismissed Bud's blocking of Mafia-noob as the reason for the No-kill (because, frankly, sending him to do the kill was a terrible decision by scum IMO).

C. Not reading the archive - By the time it was available Pine had already began his crusade to lynch with 6 alive which made no sense from a Town perspective. His behavior (along with Yuchai's which honestly was pretty obv-scum) cemented my feeling that I it probably wasn't worth slugging through an Archive with no names piecing together the thread when Day behavior and Haylen as 'Confirmed Town'. Had I re-read maybe I would have picked up on certain things that didn't make sense (the Dead QT talks about Haylen and Mafia Noob being not aggressive enough to each other). I don't know or not.

Congratulations to the scum-team! You played a good game and deserved your win.

I have 3rded the Nom for Haylen for this game as in reading the QT I think the bulk of the win should be credited with her strategic decisions behind the scenes.

On the topic of "Not Lynching the Counter-claimed Cops" - it's a uniformally terrible decision regardless of set-up. Day 2 Town had the chance to have a guaranteed dead scum by Day 3 barring complete VI play on the part of a Town fake-claiming Cop. As it stood even if only 1 of them was Mafia by mislynching Day 2 and Day 3 it put Town into a perpetual MYLO / LYLO scenario that didn't give enough wiggle room late in the game.

I learned this cardinal rule back in Vampire Masquerade Mafia when I chose to vote outside an essential 1v1 scenario where Spyrex and I were claiming conflicting roles. I knew he had to be scum from his claim and behavior but chose to vote on who I speculated was his partner. That person ended up being DERP Town and scum hammered for the Win. MafiaNoob and Haylen placed themselves in a situation where lynching between them was at worst 50/50 (and in fact it was 100% scum lynch). Looking outside them reduced the raw odds of lynching Mafia scum to at best 25% (2 / 8 possible for every remaining player).

In this game particularly it was an especially scum-positive choice as it removed 2/3rds of the scum from the lynch-pool.

Towns generally over-estimate the value of a Cop long-term. A Cop's job is to net scum. Cops should only really be expected to net 1 scum with their roles during a Mini game. Counter-claiming fake-claiming scum does that.

[toxictaipan]

toxictaipan:

Lurk less. That's a common factor in many of the players, in that had they been more active and been posting content, a lot of the suspicion on them wouldn't have existed. You were multiple times brought up as a candidate for scum due to an overall weaker presence, in my opinion, causing you to be suspected not so much for what you were saying, but rather, for how little you had been able to say.

You were still brought up as a kill candidate, and did eventually get nightkilled, but none of the times it was brought up was it because the scum thought you were a pro-town player--you kinda were, but again, you need more of a presence in a game.

Yeah, yeah, I know. My play really opens up when I'm playing with a good player list (not to say the rest of the players aren't good or fun to play with), but the first let down was having to deal with Raivann. It was impossible to take him seriously, and it really set the tone of the game for me. Then, when you take the apathy into account, it just gets worse. When the town as a whole invests time into the game and takes it seriously, so do I. When they're just going through the motions and not talking much (and especially when discussion isn't centered around me), I have nothing to comment on. Then we had the crash, and while I did want the game to continue, not being able to review the first part of the game easily really just sucked. But that was beyond anyone's control, so, whatever.

That being said, I feel the town took too formulated of an approach to the game, and we got a bit ahead of ourselves. We took what little we knew and started rolling with it, just going through the motions, instead of scum hunting as much as we should have. Looking back, I'm not not sure it was best to leave Mafia-Noob and Haylen alive for as long as we did. Mafia-Noob was tripping over himself with scumminess, he should have been gone a long time ago. Also, it was discussed how the Miller should not be left alive to make it to LyLo just because it complicates things. Had that been taken care of earlier, the possibility of me being a Godfather probably never would have been brought up.

Pine basically had his town reads and started PoE'ing everyone else. How the question of whether I was a Godfather or not kept continually came up I still don't really understand. I mean, he said it himself, me being a Godfather required a complex and unlikely scenario of Oversoul being scum instead of Miller, and me actually being a Godfather. Sure, I could have done more to make sure Pine had a town read on me, but what do I do after he starts considering it? Yell something like, "I'm not a Godfather!" and start pointing fingers at Yuchai (who a lot of people had a town read on) for lurking? And just take a look at Yuchai. I wasn't intentionally trying to lurk, but my low presence in the game draws suspicion on me. Yuchai pretty much slid completely under the radar while lurking more than I did.

Then when the discussion went Pine vs. MoI, I kinda felt like, "Why am I even here?" Pine thought he had it all figured out, Moi was against Pine, and I (being on the outside of the discussion) felt like all I could do was pick a side.

Though, I can't blame everyone else for my performance, because it ultimately comes down to me to make sure others have a town read on me. Those are just my thoughts on the game overall. Anyway, good game everyone!

[Haylen]

Out of interest, was it bad logic to think Mastin wouldn't have put in a town cop because I'd have been instantly lynched so unbalanced and there couldn't be a tracker because I was allowed to do both the kill and the investigation?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Out of interest, was it bad logic to think Mastin wouldn't have put in a town cop because I'd have been instantly lynched so unbalanced and there couldn't be a tracker because I was allowed to do both the kill and the investigation?

Yes, it was bad logic. Nothing inherently wrong with putting a Tracker in. Your choice to use both the Scan and Kill functions in the same Night (and the possibility of being busted for it) is a strategic decision. No reason at all to assume the Mod designs the set-up to cater to your Night choices.

The Cop would be a little more cruel but not outside the realm of possibility.

[Pine]

I wouldn't have assumed there was no Town Cop. Hell, I'd have assumed there was a Cop-vulnerable third party, as having a scum Sane Cop is pretty useless without there being someone to investigate.

[Haylen]

I actually presumed it was put in because there was an SK in the game, hence my thoughts that dicknose was pulling some sort of no kill gambit. I was sending in the kills towards the end because there was no way I would have been role-blocked, or tracked. The possibility of a watcher made me a bit wary so was prepared to have to lie about my investigation results. I knew there was another town PR in there somewhere but once MoI claimed doc I knew we were safe with my investigation/killing.

[Pine]

I've toyed with the idea that the best way to play a SK in a mini is just to no-kill until endgame, completely avoid anyone suspecting (and therefore hunting for) a SK/vig

[mafia-n00b]

One use of the Mafia Sane Cop is to validate the Miller claim, I suppose.

[Haylen]

So me and Jordan will be running a large theme on Politics soon, it's a really good setup we've worked hard on it and a different voting mechanic, we just need some pre-ins! You're all welcome.

[MagnaofIllusion]

One use of the Mafia Sane Cop is to validate the Miller claim, I suppose.

Technically not as all other Sanities are explicitly blacklisted in Normal games.

[Pine]

One use of the Mafia Sane Cop is to validate the Miller claim, I suppose.

How? Person claims Miller, they're going to be investigated as guilty, period. Either they're Town, and therefore telling the truth, and will be Miller-guilty, or they're some sort of scum fakeclaiming, and will investigate as guilty.

[mafia-n00b]

Sorry, let me be clear.... it allows the scum to validate that the person claiming Miller really is one. A townie with a different role could fakeclaim Miller. I'm not sure why anyone WOULD, but at least it does give the scum the chance to confirm it.

[Scummies]

This is a friendly Scummies reminder that if you feel there was anyone in this game, player or moderator, who deserves a scummy, please don't hesitate to nominate or second a nomination here: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=21324

Possible Nominations for a Normal Game:
Best Performance of a Pro-Town Team
Best Performance of a Scum Group
Best Performance of a Third Party
Most Enjoyable Game
Best Mafia Catcher
Most Cunning Manipulation
Rising Star
Best Replacement
Funniest or Most Enjoyable Player
Best Setup
Excellent Moderation (aka "Smooth Operator")

[mastin2]

We already did.

Best Performance Scum Group, AND Most Cunning Manipulation (Haylen). Both have gotten N'thed as both apply equally to the game.

[callforjudgement]

I thought it was possible that Scummies came here precisely

because

the game had been nominated, to get more opinions. Perhaps it's just coincidence.

[Haylen]

Nah. They're doing it in all the games.

[Papa Zito]

fin.