Mini 792 - Tofu Mafia. Game over!

[Adel]

What do you mean "go after"? If you mean 'attack', I don't think that's true. If you mean 'seek out', I'm equally interested in the reasoning; I don't seem to have either at the moment.

Gurgi, there is not a lot of reasoning in there. Like, it "comes off" as scum trying to cover his ass - well, why? Why does blaming SpyreX make it more likely? Et cetera.

There is

no

town motivation for continuing to withhold your thought processes after you have moved your vote.

I would like the reasoning behind this statement especially.

Because the town Adel that I have played with doesn't care if he started the flame war, he starts them on purpose. Blaming SpyreX is uncharacteristic. It set off the national guard.

I

didn't

start a flame war with him. Instead of laying low and letting other player come forward with opinion and information, he set about trying to lynch me like he was a lyncher and I was his target.

When you vote someone, there can be a town-benefit for not saying why, so you withhold it for a while. Once you move your vote away, there is no longer anything to be gained, in fact withholding something that you find might incriminate said player should be shared if you are town, regardless of whether or not you find it conclusive enough to lynch them.

unless you want to keep your real opinions and tactics hidden from scum, liek I usually do.

The town motivation for failing that is null, while the scum could get away with any number of things.

I disagree, as demonstrated by any game you might care to look at where from the last year I was town.

Frankly, withholding the information she gained from the deep meta, her votes, discussion, and everything else has made her a detriment to this town.

Day 1 was cut short by the "accidental" hammer, and Day 2 has been all about me getting lynched. I've put a lot information into defending myself and not claiming, and I'm about dry. This game has taken a lot of effort, with very little pay off.

[Adel]

this fucking town is retarded. Spring is able to just camp out with a vote on me, Porkens is unchallenged for "accidental" hammer and "blind" voting, meanwhile I've:
1. stopped the Atrem wagon (which Porkens and spring were on)
2. challenged a role claim
3. was confirmed by Hero

I haven't produced any miracles, but I haven't had a chance to produce any. Day 1 was cut short, and day 2 has been nearly useless.

If you are confirmed town, you don't lead the town until everyone has taken positions.

I only soft claimed because I could see DGB or Ecto hammering me if either of them are scum.

Please don't force me to full-claim, get me away from lynch-1, and I'll start answering direct questions that can actually be given a direct answer... please spare me the opened essay questions.

[Adel]

*open-ended essay questions.

[Adel]

this isn't even hard:

SpyreX is obvtown.

unvote, vote Adel

30 min later:

Did you really read all of the posts in this thread, since your last post, before your vote on me? Did you really think about all of those exchanges?

I skimmed. I didn't absorb much; it's all turning into white noise at this point (megapost v. megapost). But I do know SpyreX's claiming/shooting habits as vig, and I take that to be your main point against him even though you claim to do "deep, psycological meta analysis."

and he still hasn't stated why he is voting for me.

fucking read the posts he has made today. seriously, that is all that it takes.

[Adel]

1 shot doc, can cross protect, haven't used action yet.

[Adel]

fos: SpryeX and Porkens

for real.

Hero: assuming that you are town, any final words? How do you thin is most responsible for your lynch? Who should we look most closely at tomorrow? Which of your posts should we pay special heed to tomorrow?

Well, I PMed caf a few hours ago to ask whether I could talk in twilight if I were lynched. He didn't answer, and there doesn't seem to be a rule against it.

Adel is town.
In this post:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 74#1688274
I breadcrumbed doc pretty heavily (though I'm really a VT.) In 304 and 311, Adel picked up the breadcrumb, and indicated he was going to bus me (presumably to keep me from being NKed.) Not what a scum would do (which is to keep quiet and NK me.) I didn't really want him to do that, since I was aiming to be NKed, but wasn't sure how to say it wasn't what I wanted. So I just acknowledged that in 312 with the following sentences:
"I see; sorry, and please don't worry about it.
Maybe it wasn't worth bringing up.
For now, I can accept your appeal to experience in lieu of reasoning (though its validity would depend on your alignment.)"
and hoped that I could either claim convincingly or that the scum would kill me despite the wagon. I was slightly worried that Adel's bussing (and the possible need for me to claim) could lead to a real doc being outed either by a counterclaim (which would be a stupid move) or by obvious skepticism, so I wanted my breadcrumbing not to have to be followed up by a real claim.

Before you spend tomorrow insulting my plan, let me link you to Camn's evaluation of the idea:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 82#1600082

So... that's one reason for my excess mentions of Adel.

Any questions for me?

Since I'm going to die, I suppose I can post my town reads.

So far, I have
Artem
Adel
as most likely town

Elmo
as somewhat townish

Vi
SpyreX
well, I was serious about the fishing accusation...

PT
also relatively scummy

Korts
Spring
Zorblag
as 'too quiet'

and no good read on Ecto

I haven't read the twilight postings in depth, but Porkens's hammer is also scummy just by virtue of coming out of the blue. No request for a claim, no warning. And that, when I was hinting that I might be a mason! I do not accept that he didn't know the VC.

So, this post is horribly written, but since twilight could end at any time, I'm posting it as-is.

I figure scum figured this out, and I was picked for today's lynch target.

[Adel]

my votes (copied from a spring post)
Day 1:
Vote Spyrex
random day 1 goodness.
Vote Herodotus
i thought I saw links between him and other players that would be worth looking into later (notice that I fingered spring and Porkens.... why are unquestionably voting for me today)
Vote Pop.
I wanted him to interact more in this game. his other games were getting all of his attention.
Vote spyrex
shit stirrer, and lazy townie / random wagon follower check. I am used to players simply following my vote. also, I wasn't buying SPryeX's anti-meta shit.
Vote Porkens
porkens was pinging as scum
Vote Herod
I wanted to determine if he was fakclaiming or not, and i figured that worse-case he would claim, and I would protect him, and most townies would be on his wagon day 2.
Day 2
Vote Zorblag
needed more posting from Zorblag in order to have a chance at determining his alignment.
Vote spyrex
he'd already claimed, so I decided to test it, and hopefully wagon him and get opinions out more people.
Vote Vi
that contradiction screams scum at me.

It wouldn't be bad to hear from him, but this is one of those times when I wouldn't mind an untimely hammer.

It still feels like there are only a few people playing this game. We need more player variety ITT.

unvote, vote: Vi

like it is hinting at a buddy that finishing this wagon with a premature lynch is a good thing, or trying to encourage a townie to act rashly and hammer.

[Adel]

unvote, vote: Herodotus

he bailed on Atrem, and now is wagoning Tajo. I don't think that either of those players are scum.

If Herodotus is scum, I see Elmo as being his most likely buddy.

note that this was just about my

least

sincere vote, but I was easily able to give reasons for it that everyone else thought was acceptable. Before I was the target for a scum-fueled lynch, it was no problem for me to make posts that

appear

uber-townie -- I chose not to.

[Adel]

If you thought you were going to die last night, why didn't you self-protect?

i think you are fishing for more information than would be pro-town of me to reveal.

[Adel]

Adel: Why would the scum lynch you today instead of killing you last night?

with Hero & Tajo dead, I had the most pressure and suspicion left over from day 1. I'm still not sure why Tajo was the kill, but I'm reasonably sure that I wasn't the kill because they thought they could lynch me.

What do you mean "go after"? If you mean 'attack', I don't think that's true. If you mean 'seek out', I'm equally interested in the reasoning; I don't seem to have either at the moment.

Gurgi, there is not a lot of reasoning in there. Like, it "comes off" as scum trying to cover his ass - well, why? Why does blaming SpyreX make it more likely? Et cetera.

There is

no

town motivation for continuing to withhold your thought processes after you have moved your vote.

I would like the reasoning behind this statement especially.

Because the town Adel that I have played with doesn't care if he started the flame war, he starts them on purpose. Blaming SpyreX is uncharacteristic. It set off the national guard.

I

didn't

start a flame war with him. Instead of laying low and letting other player come forward with opinion and information, he set about trying to lynch me like he was a lyncher and I was his target.

My point is that you seem fixated on blaming everything on him.

I didn't intend to or want to get wrapped up in a flame war with him. Even assuming that claiming day 2 was optimal for him, which it wasn't, killing N1 was not optimal (30% to 35% chance of accurate kill, at best) and claiming at the

very beginning

of day 1 certainly wasn't, and tunneling in on me and outright refusing to consider other players is horrible play. I thought this was going to be a good game, but now between the "accidental" hammer and the stupid kill and premature claim we are in a bad place, and I see SpryeX as being the primary cause.

When you vote someone, there can be a town-benefit for not saying why, so you withhold it for a while. Once you move your vote away, there is no longer anything to be gained, in fact withholding something that you find might incriminate said player should be shared if you are town, regardless of whether or not you find it conclusive enough to lynch them.

unless you want to keep your real opinions and tactics hidden from scum, liek I usually do.

You can't hide everything. You are confusing more town than scum, which is bad.

how do you know how confused the scum are?
I am proud of my unorthodox playstyle and especially proud of my 12 month win % rate as town.

The town motivation for failing that is null, while the scum could get away with any number of things.

I disagree, as demonstrated by any game you might care to look at where from the last year I was town.

Frankly, withholding the information she gained from the deep meta, her votes, discussion, and everything else has made her a detriment to this town.

Day 1 was cut short by the "accidental" hammer, and Day 2 has been all about me getting lynched. I've put a lot information into defending myself and not claiming, and I'm about dry. This game has taken a lot of effort, with very little pay off.

Oh ja, day one was cut short, sure. You were holding it back, you had plenty of time. You haven't put any information into defending yourself, you've been ignoring accusations or defending with "lol [noun]".

did you miss my post about the tarbaby defense? Also, I have been defending myself, mostly against SpryeX, who contributed the most to my near-lynch, letting scum coast on his coat tails. Now you are doing the same. Thanks.

this fucking town is retarded. Spring is able to just camp out with a vote on me, Porkens is unchallenged for "accidental" hammer and "blind" voting, meanwhile I've:
1. stopped the Atrem wagon (which Porkens and spring were on)
2. challenged a role claim
3. was confirmed by Hero

YOU WERE NOT CONFIRMED. You picked up on a breadcrumb, I've seen scum do it all the time, and I don't think you'd stop paying attention just because you are scum. Challenging a day one wagon means nothing. There's so little information flying around, that being against or for one wagon or another doesn't mean anything strong enough to use as your defense day two.

yet you honestly expect me to make a miracle out of that information? Can't you see the contradiction?

Challenging a role claim is terrible. You already claimed that you were "setup" as today's lynch, so to me that looks like trying to force the town into lynching someone else.

why on earth do you think that challenging a role claim is terrible?
Imagine how this would've worked out differently if SpryeX hadn't tunneled on me. Scum either would've joined me on his wagon, or been on my wagon. There would be that many more votes to look at, and scum-authored opinions that might collapse under later questioning, and I wouldn't have been forced to claim, and I would've definitely dodged another NK tonight.

I haven't produced any miracles, but I haven't had a chance to produce any. Day 1 was cut short, and day 2 has been nearly useless.

You have had plenty of time. A month is plenty of time.

scum = 2 out of (porkens, Vi, spring) + out of (Ecto, Troll, DGB).
we can break this by getting Ecto, Troll and DGB to direct questioning, and agree on who to lynch, and then two out of (Adel, LG, ELmo) either veto that choice, or go along with it for the lynch.

If you are confirmed town, you don't lead the town until everyone has taken positions.

You're not confirmed, and that is a terrible copout. You weren't taking positions even before you were "confirmed".

I'm not confirmed -- YOU ARE. Now shut up and give the scum a chance to out themselves.

I only soft claimed because I could see DGB or Ecto hammering me if either of them are scum.

Please don't force me to full-claim, get me away from lynch-1, and I'll start answering direct questions that can actually be given a direct answer... please spare me the opened essay questions.

You're so fixated on this, you've been here so long, and we aren't going to lose if you die and are town, anyway, so please, I'd love some scum quickhammers, it'll make our job easy.

what is with town players taking pride at being bad at mafia in this game?

pathetic.

this isn't even hard:

SpyreX is obvtown.

unvote, vote Adel

30 min later:

Did you really read all of the posts in this thread, since your last post, before your vote on me? Did you really think about all of those exchanges?

I skimmed. I didn't absorb much; it's all turning into white noise at this point (megapost v. megapost). But I do know SpyreX's claiming/shooting habits as vig, and I take that to be your main point against him even though you claim to do "deep, psycological meta analysis."

and he still hasn't stated why he is voting for me.

fucking read the posts he has made today. seriously, that is all that it takes.

You have no right to demand an explanation. None.

crap.

I've spent more time on this game and written more words than anyone else, especially him.

[Adel]

The last game I played with him, he started a huge flame war with me and everyone else in the game, driving me nearly to the point where I would do what SpyreX did. He was town, I was scum. He took responsibility for it. To answer your next question, I don't think that starting arguments is a town move for him. By his own admission he is aggressive, but as town he takes some share of the blame. This game he has tried his best to remain absolutely clandestine.

how is this even close to intellectually honest?

the game he is talking about:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9774

I didn't apologize until the post game:

BTW, SensFan, I recognize that I was being a bit of a jerk towards you, and I apologize if you took offense, but I did feel a little aggravated that you hammered so early on page 2. I was really looking forward to playing a close game, and it seemed to me that you were just throwing away your chances of winning.
Why did you think you could get away with it?

A large part of mafia is psychological. The level of insults in this game was pretty modest.

I would've played in a much tighter, well-researched, and civil style had it not been for the page 2 hammer. The outright stupidity of that dazzled me, and I had trouble staying serious about this game after that. It only took me a little while to figure out if SensFan had a high enough opinion of his own ability as scum to get away with audacious shit like that, or if he was an idiot, to make up my mind. After I saw the game where he faked a really silly vote restriction as scum, I knew his ego was definitely big enough to attempt to get away with a page 2 hammer as scum.

now in this game the retard play is by players on my own side.

compare the posts by me in that game compared to this game.

[Adel]

Adel, when did Elmo become obv-town for you? Troll assumes him be given the scum grouping in that last post.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

he isn't quite obv-town, but the risk vs. reward for treating him like he is is worth the risk. I can productively work him.

As I see it, after (ecto, DGB, Troll) agree on a lynch (by majority if necessary) LG and I can get Elmo to commit to signing off on the lynch or not, then I will either sign off on it or not, than LG will hammer if necessary.

all of the most probable scum groupings I can think of have at least one line of connection from (Vi, Spring, Porkens) and (Dgb, Ecto, Troll) -- and I'm looking at a structural way to force those connections to be revealed.

[Adel]

Hmm, Troll might be reading this wrong (Troll has already finished a bottle of win and 4 ciders this afternoon as Troll's last day of teaching for the quarter was today and Troll wanted to celebrate) but it seems that Troll should take from what be said there that Adel be leaving Elmo out of all of his most likely scum groupings despite warnings about Elmo's play.

I think that I have a tell on Elmo, and getting him to write long opinions on the opinions of the other towards the end of the day is the best way to test that tell.

Here Troll be interested in knowing what connections (other than bussing if both be scum) Adel sees between Troll and Porkens or springlullaby.

you are too damned controlled in your posting. I can totally see how your "in character" post restriction helps you play mafia. I would really like to see you engage in some rapid fire post exchanges.
If Porkens and spring share an alignment, than I think that Troll has the opposite alignment. They are both town, than I think Troll is scum with VI. If one and only one of (spring, Porkens) is scum, then I think that Troll may be scum if spring is scum.

Troll knows that Adel has talked about a potential pairing of Troll and Vi and that be fine. Other than that does Elmo really have fewer connections between the group of Porkens, springlullaby and Vi than Troll does or does it just be the Troll/Vi idea that be the distinction?

basically, I see Elmo as being a lot like troll, just slightly more townie.

Troll also wants to know what Adel thinks of DrippingGoofball's bussing comment but Troll wants to know what all think of that.

FWIW, I think she is more likely to be scum than you are, and Ecto is slightly more likely (mostly because of when/how he unvoted me) than either of you are.

Really, I want to see a rapid fire exchange between Ecto, DGB, and Troll, with them also asking questions of Porkens, Vi, and spring, and reaching clear conclusions.

There really isn't enough information in this game yet.

[Adel]

I don't get why tunnelling in that manner on Adel, someone you've vocally said was town, would make him look more townish to you.

He must really believe her to be scum. It seems a little too dogged to be bus'ing. Though you never know. Seems unlikely.

this one? she was talking about Porkens, right? if so, I missed the contradiction until now.. I should pay more attention to your posts.

[Adel]

Troll has serious issues with this statement from DrippingGoofball and tried to give DrippingGoofball a chance to clarify what she be saying.

As DrippingGoofball has made it clear that she thinks that Adel be scum

it no makes any sense at all for Porkens to be bussing Adel if Porkens be scum. Scum no can bus town. Them can only bus scum.

The bolded statement is patently incorrect and invalidates your argument completely.

I firmly believe Adel to be town.

I believe that while I've had some moments of doubt, given the wall-of-texts of arguments against her, I have made it very clear that I remain unconvinced. I have said, not very long ago, that I will NOT vote Adel.

This may seem paradoxical but I tend to believe that the players posting walls-of-text cases against Adel ought to be townies.

italics to set off what I think may be a contradiction... is this what you were referring to Troll?

[Adel]

post explosion, I guess not

Troll has serious issues with this statement from DrippingGoofball and tried to give DrippingGoofball a chance to clarify what she be saying.

As DrippingGoofball has made it clear that she thinks that Adel be scum

it no makes any sense at all for Porkens to be bussing Adel if Porkens be scum. Scum no can bus town. Them can only bus scum.

The bolded statement is patently incorrect and invalidates your argument completely.

I firmly believe Adel to be town.

I believe that while I've had some moments of doubt, given the wall-of-texts of arguments against her, I have made it very clear that I remain unconvinced. I have said, not very long ago, that I will NOT vote Adel.

This may seem paradoxical but I tend to believe that the players posting walls-of-text cases against Adel ought to be townies.

italics to set off what I think may be a contradiction...

+

I don't get why tunnelling in that manner on Adel, someone you've vocally said was town, would make him look more townish to you.

He must really believe her to be scum. It seems a little too dogged to be bus'ing. Though you never know. Seems unlikely.

leaves me asking why Porkens gets a pass from DGB (dogged attack on Adel) and Vi gets a pass from DGB (wall of words attack on Adel) but spring (who is halfway inbetween Porkens and Vi for doggedness and wordiness) gets her vote.

[Adel]

Unvote

.

Why didn't you apologise to SpyreX after he replaced out?

I'm dismayed that it takes this to get what I want out of you.

1. because post game or post-game PM is the proper time place to do so,
2. I think that this line is why he replaced out:

The "stalling" business with Porkens.

your lack of suspicion of him, giving him cover, not being concearned about his lack of contribution, ect, is really making me think that y'all have out-of-game agreement to to lynch each other in this game.

and I might have been right, and if so then no apology is needed from me.

unvote

I want to see which wagons start to compete when Elmo, LG and I are not voting.

[Adel]

Troll has serious issues with this statement from DrippingGoofball and tried to give DrippingGoofball a chance to clarify what she be saying.

As DrippingGoofball has made it clear that she thinks that Adel be scum

it no makes any sense at all for Porkens to be bussing Adel if Porkens be scum. Scum no can bus town. Them can only bus scum.

The bolded statement is patently incorrect and invalidates your argument completely.

I firmly believe Adel to be town.

I believe that while I've had some moments of doubt, given the wall-of-texts of arguments against her, I have made it very clear that I remain unconvinced. I have said, not very long ago, that I will NOT vote Adel.

This may seem paradoxical but I tend to believe that the players posting walls-of-text cases against Adel ought to be townies.

In your opinion, who are the players that have posted wall of words attacks against me?

[Adel]

SpyreX and I are friends in real life; but we'd never pull something like that.

In other news; I'm a cop. And Spring is town.

how confirmed is your sanity?

why did you think this was a good time to claim?

why should we believe your claim?

[Adel]

DGB: Porkens is a tunnelling townie. I considered bussing, but his attack on Adel seems a little too dogged.

So I don't actually see it, really. Erp.

ignoring that claim for a moment,

why

would DGB think that Porkens' attack on me was too dogged to be from scum? Read his posts. A bunch of glib and infrequent statements of his suspicion of me. I saw less to bind him to my wagon than what Vi or spring typed.

[Adel]

@Porkens, when else have you claimed a power role without being at lynch -1?

[Adel]

DGB,Ecto&Vi: please state opinions on Porkens' Claim ASAP.

[Adel]

I think it is better to wait before we examine the massclaim question.

I STRONGLY discourage additional premature claims, including cop counterclaims, at this time.

[Adel]

@LG, Have you ever been in the same game as SpryeX?

[Adel]

I understand that she has some kind of "rep" on MS, but I don't know why.

why? probably my extradonarily high win % as town and as mafia + how many other respected players have a high opinion of my ability + 2 scummies for 2008

[Adel]

Right now Troll be inclined to lynch DrippingGoofball and seeing how the night kills play out or Adel to see if the cop claim be true.

how would my lynch test the cop claim?

[Adel]

Porkens, you utterly failed to address these questions:

Ironically, I actually considered you might be a cop pushing a guilty on Adel for a while; if you died, how would we avoid that?

why should we believe your claim?

What does Porkens think of what Troll has brought up about DrippingGoofball?

Why is Porkens jumping on with unexplained reasons on non-investigated players? Involved in a quicklynch? Keeping an uninvestigated player at L-1 for so long?

[Adel]

Leaving Adel alive would certainly put a fake claiming scum in a bind wouldn't it? Having only claimed a 1-shot, maybe he could try saying he was playing chicken with scum and lost if the cop dies, but seriously, he would be the lynch tomorrow if that happened.

this, so long as there isn't anther outed power-role. Right now I have a LG:Porkens coin flip to consider (assuming that we lynch spring, and spring is town, if spring is non-GF scum then obviously I would protect LG, also assuming that Porken's claim holds up to questioning) -- and if another PR gets outed then we lose a PR tonight, guaranteed.

Spring, Ecto, Vi, DGB and Troll are possible lynches for today.

[Adel]

Vi: How is spring cleared?

In the context of that sentence, Porkens claimed an innocent on s-lully, thus making it part and parcel of his claim. I don't know of a good reason to DISbelieve Porkens' claim, so there we are.

Porkens, you utterly failed to address these questions:

Ironically, I actually considered you might be a cop pushing a guilty on Adel for a while; if you died, how would we avoid that?

why should we believe your claim?

What does Porkens think of what Troll has brought up about DrippingGoofball?

Why is Porkens jumping on with unexplained reasons on non-investigated players? Involved in a quicklynch? Keeping an uninvestigated player at L-1 for so long?

also, he hasn't explained why he picked spring for his investigation.

how many other respected players have a high opinion of my ability

None of them appear to be playing in this game.

yeah, there wouldn't be unquestioned "accidental" hammers or two EpicMafia style premature claims if that wasn't the case.

By the way, this is an private invitational.

thanks for making that clear.

[Adel]

To be honest, I think you expect some particular behaviour from her "by default" and find the lack of such scummy, and I don't.

Do "helpful" and "not self-serving" count as "some particular" behavior?

1. I stopped the Atrem wagon day 1
2. The Hero wagon should've worked out to the town's advantage
3. I avoided a NK, and never would've claimed if not for SpryeX's tunnel vision, and the unresolved gang mentality SpryeX and Porkens seem to have.

[Adel]

Adel, why are you attempting to undermine the claimed cop?

I don't accept claims at face value. I test them. Note that Porkens is posting in other games

right now

, but not this one, & reread Prokens posts for this day. He is lurking through, and I can break a fakeclaim.

[Adel]

EBWOP:

You know what, never mind; I don't even want to get into it.

Adel wrote:
Porkens wrote:
I understand that she has some kind of "rep" on MS, but I don't know why.

why? probably my extradonarily high win % as town and as mafia + how many other respected players have a high opinion of my ability + 2 scummies for 2008


Wow, just wow.

Anyways; Win Percentage as Town: ~56% (19/34) <--- is your wiki out of date then?

starting off, I was bad at mafia. Look at the last 12 months, or last 6 months, or last 18 months, or what ever time period you thing would demonstrate my current level of competence.

[Adel]

Porkens, you utterly failed to address these questions:

Ironically, I actually considered you might be a cop pushing a guilty on Adel for a while; if you died, how would we avoid that?

God, I'd love to see adel lynched because you thought I had a guilty on her. I considered lying and saying that's what I had.

bad at mafia defense? also, I adore how you have lying as a cop as part of your meta.

why should we believe your claim?

...This is a non-sense question.

no, it isn't. Why should we believe that you are a cop, other than your word?

why would you investigate spring as opposed to Korts or me?

Why is Porkens jumping on with unexplained reasons on non-investigated players? Involved in a quicklynch? Keeping an uninvestigated player at L-1 for so long?

Because I really think she's scum and my inno on Spring was just peripheral.[/quote]
WHY do you think that I am scum? Your stated reason was that SyryeX was "obv-town" and you've only backed it up with blather about how I post with empty words, ect.

[Adel]

Adel, why are you attempting to undermine the claimed cop?

I don't accept claims at face value. I test them.

There is a distinction between testing a claim by asking questions and outright attempting to reduce the credibility of the claimant, though. I get the latter sense from your posts.

he isn't very credible. between the "accidental hammer" his role on the Atrem wagon and my wagon, and voting after only skimming, I think it is entirely possible that he just fakeclaimed.

[Adel]

also, I adore how you have lying as a cop as part of your meta.

Stuff like this. This isn't testing anything. Why are you doing it?

if he is town I'm pissed off at the accidental hammer, not paying attention to the game, and the sub-optimal timing of his claim.
if he is scum, I'm pissed off that he has a meta for idiotic moves as town (like lying as a cop) that basically makes him unlynchable.
My playstyle depends upon a basic level of competence, which just isn't something that the bad at mafia crew seem to have.

[Adel]

bad at mafia defense? also, I adore how you have lying as a cop as part of your meta.

It won the game, it's not a defense at all.

every game is swingy and random. just like shooting as a vig N1, lying as a cop is sub-optimal. you will lose more games as town than you will win if you routinely do shit like that.

no, it isn't. Why should we believe that you are a cop, other than your word?

why would you investigate spring as opposed to Korts or me?

I defy you to give me an example of an answer to that first question.

you should believe my role claim because it explains my interaction with Hero day 1 & why I ignored so many questions about Hero day 2 even when I answered other questions from the same lists. an example:

The unexplained votes day 1.

aren't going to be explained.

The "stalling" business with Porkens.

your lack of suspicion of him, giving him cover, not being concearned about his lack of contribution, ect, is really making me think that y'all have out-of-game agreement to to lynch each other in this game.

The meta questionnaire that hasn't been used for anything.

of all of the posts on page 3, I challange you to find one that has generated more information.

The selective use of meta. (see me, Zorblag "Being good as scum" when his town record is percentage-wise better)

way out of context... I was talking about how Troll and Elmo are able to slip through as scum.

The unnecessary ad hom's with me.

hypocrite. You started it, continued it, and are making a deal out of it.

The difference in reactions from what I said versus what Elmo brought up.

think about this a little bit more please.

The "lol gambit" after it became apparent not only was I NOT going to get lynched BUT that the attack itself was going to get her lynched.

a vote doesn't = a lynch. sorry.

Ultimately, really, the ONLY reason I can see that no one has hammered is that "Ohh, Adel is just being Adel."

Which isn't going to fly.

please stop looking at the world though a straw.

The unexplained votes day 1.
The "stalling" business with Porkens.
The meta questionnaire that hasn't been used for anything.

The lack of..anything.. concerning Herod's fixation.

The selective use of meta. (see me, Zorblag "Being good as scum" when his town record is percentage-wise better)
The unnecessary ad hom's with me.
The difference in reactions from what I said versus what Elmo brought up.
The "lol gambit" after it became apparent not only was I NOT going to get lynched BUT that the attack itself was going to get her lynched.

Ultimately, really, the ONLY reason I can see that no one has hammered is that "Ohh, Adel is just being Adel."

what i skipped is in bold. if you look though my posts you should be able to find several other examples. I didn't want to hint at my role (PR pro-tip: don't leak your role)

I figured if you were town, you'd get night killed.

why did you think I would be NK'd?

Why do you ask about Korts, specifically? I went for the person I suspected early on in day 1 who didn't(?) have any votes up.

he was the person with the least activity day 1, and he got replaced, which gives his replacement a blank slate. As an informational role, knowing the alignment of a wildcard like that really helps!

[Adel]

If "he isn't very credible", why do you not just point that out instead of trying to make him look worse than he really is?

too emotionally involved. taking a break now to cool off.

[Adel]

Adel, can you suspend the condescension?

ok, I'll try. this is why I don't play in newbie games.

[Adel]

I figured if you were town, you'd get night killed.

why did you think I would be NK'd?

this question is important to me though. please answer it.

[Adel]

did you notice this post:

in my last game, on I replaced in on day 2, during night 2 with 12 or 13 players alive, two out of the three players with night moves two of them targeted me. I expect to get night killed in this game, obviously.

While I usually admire your WIFOM trap, you have given little reason for scum to nightkill you. Please be less reactive. Post 304 isn't too convincing either.

how did it effect your decision as to who to target?

[Adel]

It didn't play a part. I looked at everyone and thought about my general impressions before settling on S-lully.

what were the general impressions that you considered?

[Adel]

why didn't you investigate Atrem?

[Adel]

so you did think that Atrem was most probable scum following the Hero-town flip?

[Adel]

At this point I'm finding that hard to remember. I had guessed that Spy was breadcrubing vig. wiht his "if I had a bullet" game.

I figured that you and Herod were scum together, or Arten would be scum. the fact that everyone flipped town really screwed me up, as I said before. Honestly, I thought it was a lock and I just had to find the last partner.

Of course, now if Hero flips scum, I'd be more inclined to buy into the scum-driven derailing of Hero's wagon, which would buy you townie points.

All aboard for the last

bus

.

Haha oh sure;

f I had a bullet and Hero flips town I'd shoot: Adel
If I had a bullet and Hero flips scum I'd shoot: Artem

subtle change

It doesn't, really. But I run on a dumber plane than most of you; Adel is on Hero's wagon and Artem isn't.

are there any condradictions in these posts you would like to clear up?

[Adel]

so you really thought that I would be NK'd if I were town?

in my last game, on I replaced in on day 2, during night 2 with 12 or 13 players alive, two out of the three players with night moves two of them targeted me. I expect to get night killed in this game, obviously.

obviously every game will go down exactly like your last one.

[Adel]

so you did think that Atrem was most probable scum following the Hero-town flip?

That was my general instinct, yes.

why didn't you investigate him then?

]At this point I'm finding that hard to remember. I had guessed that Spy was breadcrubing vig. wiht his "if I had a bullet" game.

I figured that you and Herod were scum together, or Arten would be scum. the fact that everyone flipped town really screwed me up, as I said before. Honestly, I thought it was a lock and I just had to find the last partner.

logic: scum include (Hero+Adel) OR (Atrem)

Of course, now if Hero flips scum, I'd be more inclined to buy into the scum-driven derailing of Hero's wagon, which would buy you townie points.

All aboard for the last

bus

.

context: after the hammer and before the flip day 1.
logic: scum include (Atrem+Adel) -- Atrem is bussing Adel

Haha oh sure;

f I had a bullet and Hero flips town I'd shoot: Adel
If I had a bullet and Hero flips scum I'd shoot: Artem

subtle change

logic: scum include (Hero+Atrem) OR (Adel)

It doesn't, really. But I run on a dumber plane than most of you; Adel is on Hero's wagon and Artem isn't.

logic: scum include (Hero+Atrem) OR (Adel) because scum would not bus

[Adel]

btw, without looking, how old does everyone think Porkens is?

[Adel]

@Porkens: one chance only: did you lie about who you investigated last night?

[Adel]

so what is the cause of those logical contradictions?

It didn't play a part. I looked at everyone and thought about my general impressions before settling on S-lully. I really thought I could catch a scum with my investigation; I wasn't looking to get an innocent.

why did you think that spring was scum?

i'm trying to understand why Porkens-cop would investigate spring over Atrem or Adel.

I think it is interesting that you expected that I would be lynched if I were scum... why did you have that expectation?

btw, without looking, how old does everyone think Porkens is?

How is this relevant? Do you want to guess my profession, too?

It doesn't, really. But I run on a dumber plane than most of you; Adel is on Hero's wagon and Artem isn't.

in the South people call this "slow-talking" -- getting people to underestimate your intelligence so that you can take advantage of their misconception.

my theory for Porkens-scum is that you intentioanlly have played to lower other player's estimation of your competence and age -- that you are slow-talking us.

[Adel]

my theory for Porkens-scum is that you intentioanlly have played to lower other player's estimation of your competence and age -- that you are slow-talking us.

i.e. that if we think that you are dumb, then you can get away with optimal scum moves like hammering before a claim, blindly voting, and claiming without provocation.

[Adel]

I'm just gunna look stupid this game, I guess.

I see neither a breadcrumb nor Adel picking up on one.

At this point I'm finding that hard to remember. I had guessed that Spy was breadcrubing vig. wiht his "if I had a bullet" game.

would you explain how you were able to correctly figure out SpryeX breadcrumb, but you weren't able to figure out Hero's

even after he pointed it out

?

[Adel]

Yeah, I did think you'd be nightkilled if you were town; But I couldn't miss the chance to snipe at ya.

I don't understand how you could simultaniously believe that I would NK'd if I were town and lynched if I were scum.

[Adel]

What does DrippingGoofball's opinion on Vi be anyhow?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

what does Zorblag's opinion of Vi currently be?

[Adel]

It's really hard to pick between s-lulllaby and Porkens.

vote: Porkens

48 hours later:

Adel isn't scum. I doubt Spyrex is scum. I will NOT vote Adel.

Adel, why would you vote Spyrex before Porkens?

which kind of contrasts with this:

*rubs the lamp* Madame Djinni, why did you reference the possibility of Porkens bussing Adel long after you had said Adel was obviously town?

Adel seems real town to me, which doesn't mean that the probability of her being town is 100%. I considered that they might be bus'ing, and discounted it as improbable. I thought they were more likely both town. What's really funny is that I didn't consider them being of different alignments.

on the other hand, this looks really sound to me:

I said nothing quantitative about the likelihood of Porkens telling the truth, and Porkens being gambitting scum.

He could have breadcrumbed that he had a result on you for us to use after his death. Especially with the only claimed doctor having a one-shot protect. He could have investigated other players later, had he not claimed and marked himself for the kill. IF he's town. IF he's town, this is EPIC FAIL noob play.

You claim if you have a guilty. You claim if you're in jeopardy of a lynch. You claim if you have a productive innocent in jeopardy of being lynched, more so in late game than early game.

You do not claim when none of the above conditions are satisfied.

So let's go out on a limb and put numbers on my suspicion of Porkens. At this point, I'd say he's 85% scum. I think he lost his nerve and his sense of timing.

I'm considering the idea that if Porkens is scum, then DGB must be his partner, but spring is

not

their third member.

DGB was quiet but committed to me being scum, followed my critique of Porken's claim, and is up for lynching spring to test Porkens' claim... which only works if both of them are scum together.

[Adel]

DBG, well, again, nothing specific, sadly, just a general read, and compared to the giant red flags I have comming from adel, everyone else is lost in contrast.

Paraphrasing a role PM takes seconds, fabricating a good fakeclaim can take a lifetime.

<3

On the issue of my alignment; why would I try SO FUCKING HARD to bus Adel when half the people in the game have expressed such lenience and patience with her?

It is a contradiction, DGB for scum then. But Ecto too, I think. And still, probably adel.

DBG is pushing really hard on me and Spring, largely, it seems, based on my report and claim. I can't really blame him, but I don't think I'm gunna change his mind by arguing with him directly anyway.

Who'd kill tajo? http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 69#1683069 I would bet Herodotus.

i was expecting to find more references from Porkens directed at DGB since she's defended me repeatably, voted Porkens early, and questioned his claim, and is now saying that Prokens is 90% likely to be scum (while still voting for spring).

[Adel]

yeah, that takes spring is off of my list of people I am willing to lynch today.

[Adel]

What does DrippingGoofball's opinion on Vi be anyhow?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

what does Zorblag's opinion of Vi currently be?

same question, but for Ecto: what is your opinion of Vi?

[Adel]

Elmo's townie cred is dropping dramatically. Assuming that (LG, Porkens, spring, Adel) are all town, the biggest problem for scum is eliminating innocents.

[Adel]

Does Elmo's more delayed reaction be more reasonable to Adel?

less.

Does Troll be wrong in assuming that Troll's inclusion of Adel as a potential lynch be the main reason that Adel seems to have moved Troll's lynchability up? Does Troll be wrong about the move at all or did Troll always be in or near that top tier for Adel?

I don't do lists. I use competing models, each of which produces different conclusions. Sometimes I try to mesh those (always evolving) conclusions into a list, but the result is pretty ugly and full of qualifiers.

[Adel]

To what degree does Adel assume that Porkens be town at this time?

i'm treating his alignment as a black box. I can't open that box, I'm skeptical of its label being accurate (cop) but I'm looking for ways to test it.

If Porkens is scum, who are his partners?
spring? there was the distinct shift from minor suspicion of spring day 1 to the "town" opinion he had day 2... so if his fakeclaim was prepared during the night then an elder scumbuddy probably would've coached him.. an elder scumbuddy who was familiar with Tajo playing well as town, or thought they had a PR tell from Tajo. So that would be a scum group of (Porkens+spring)+ 1 of (DGB, Elmo, Ecto)? DGB and Ecto are voting for spring, so that would leave Elmo.... who took a while to think about the game and then started setting the stage to move towards an Adel lynch.

[Adel]

Thinking about it, the fact that either DGB or Zorblag flipping scum makes Adel look worse makes me uncomfortable about Adel.

assuming that Prokens and LG and spring are all town, this reeks of mild bus, while leaving room for an Adel-mislynch either today (partially clearing which ever of Zorblag and DGB ((or both)) are partnered with Elmo) or tomorrow just in case his scum buddy is lynched today.

[Adel]

Spring, Ecto, Vi, DGB and Troll are possible lynches for today.

Troll was mostly asking because of the list that Adel gave there. Troll no be looking for something absolute, just a modification of what Adel had given unprompted previously with some reasons ideally thrown in.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

yeah, that is why I generally don't do lists. I'm not seeing any scum relationships where you are more likely to be scum than your proposed partners.

[Adel]

To what degree does Adel assume that Porkens be town at this time?

i'm treating his alignment as a black box. I can't open that box, I'm skeptical of its label being accurate (cop) but I'm looking for ways to test it.

If Porkens is scum, who are his partners?
spring? there was the distinct shift from minor suspicion of spring day 1 to the "town" opinion he had day 2... so if his fakeclaim was prepared during the night then an elder scumbuddy probably would've coached him.. an elder scumbuddy who was familiar with Tajo playing well as town, or thought they had a PR tell from Tajo. So that would be a scum group of (Porkens+spring)+ 1 of (DGB, Elmo, Ecto)?

DGB and Ecto are voting for spring

, so that would leave Elmo.... who took a while to think about the game and then started setting the stage to move towards an Adel lynch.

bold presumes no gambit, which isn't a safe assumption.

If Porkens is scum; if Spring is NOT scum, then:
his scum buddies want to lynch spring to "test" his claim.
(Ecto, DGB)

[Adel]

this reeks of mild bus

And why does it do that?

nice snip.
full version:

Thinking about it, the fact that either

DGB or Zorblag flipping scum makes Adel look worse

makes me uncomfortable about Adel.

assuming that Prokens and LG and spring are all town, this reeks of mild bus, while leaving room for an Adel-mislynch either today (partially clearing which ever of Zorblag and DGB ((or both)) are partnered with Elmo) or tomorrow just in case his scum buddy is lynched today.

because the part in bold doesn't make sense to me. If I were scum, I would expect my scumbuddies would be just as likely to to bus me or flipflop, as to stay off of my wagon.

Of all of the things that would make you uncomfortable of me... why would that be your trigger? It doesn't ring true for me.

[Adel]

To what degree does Adel assume that Porkens be town at this time?

i'm treating his alignment as a black box. I can't open that box, I'm skeptical of its label being accurate (cop) but I'm looking for ways to test it.

If Porkens is scum, who are his partners?
spring? there was the distinct shift from minor suspicion of spring day 1 to the "town" opinion he had day 2... so if his fakeclaim was prepared during the night then an elder scumbuddy probably would've coached him.. an elder scumbuddy who was familiar with Tajo playing well as town, or thought they had a PR tell from Tajo. So that would be a scum group of (Porkens+spring)+ 1 of (DGB, Elmo, Ecto)? DGB and Ecto are voting for spring, so that would leave Elmo.... who took a while to think about the game and then started setting the stage to move towards an Adel lynch.

Why would DrippingGoofball or Ectomancer not be bussing springlullaby here? Troll tends to think that if springlullaby be scum she would be a good candidate for a bus.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

true. you posted this just as I was typing something to the same effect. If Porkens is fakeclaiming, Elmo is starting to make more and more sense to me. His suspicion of me was very long in the comming.... he seemed active in his defense of me, but didn't really

commit

to my defense, which (lack of commitment to my defense) he is now using as a scum tell against Troll and DGB while simulatiously holding the belief that I am more and more likely to be scum... what changed? Porkens claimed. As soon as I started to test Porkens claim Elmo gets all over me. Now he is worried about me being alive tomorrow.

I am really starting to think that the best way to test Porken's claim is to lynch Elmo.

[Adel]

Adel: Because the people on your wagon, from memory, are Spring, Gurgi, Vi, and Porkens. I don't think any of them is scum, so if you're scum, I don't think you're being bussed. And if you're town, I would have expected at least one scum to have jumped on your wagon, but even if you add Ecto into it, no-one who seems plausible scum to me has done. That makes me feel less comfortable.

why, specifically, do you think Vi is not scum?


~~~

Basically, I'll let people play how they want unless it's clearly hurting the town, and I'm not convinced Adel's play is. If it is, explain it to me, I'll listen. But I remember being scum against her once upon a time, and very difficult it was too.

um... when were you scum against me? Picking Simplicity?

Adel
Really snarky at BooKitty for no apparent reason. Then weird Kravhen vote. Then reasonless, bad d3sisted vote. Absolute rubbish about the mod confirmed her innocent. OMGUS vote, the sure mark of a pro-town player. I don't necessarily agree with BooKitty's remark on the NK, but I don't think it's particularly WIFOM, actually. Deeply unimpressed with her responses to BooKitty. 1255 another pointless d3sisted vote, really? 1261 & 1268 lead me to believe Adel is being a good troll, but that's not what's needed right now. This one needs more heat.

Priority for now is probably getting opinions out of WLC and ThAdmiral and following up this Adel thing. The "need more info" four would also be interesting, especially Setael, and we could always do with more activity from the lurk squad. So I'm going with vote: Adel because you need to do better in answering Bookitty, imo. That's five on, I think.

Adel is a good troll. However, mafia is not trolling.

Trolling and random insults are not actually helping find scum. I'm prepared to give people a bit of elbow room for odd playstyles, but this is pushing it. In my view, Adel got abrasive really fast, and you should both just shake hands and leave it behind. This is not productive.

That is pretty obviously not a contradiction. I am talking about "trolling and random insults". My vote is still on Adel, and I still want her to answer the questions. I just don't think having this descend into a heated personal conflict is going to get anywhere.

I don't like ThAdmiral's postings, but I have no idea why his behaviour towards Adel merits the assumption she's innocent. I remain very uncomfortable about her. I think following up ThAdmiral is a good idea, though. Also WLC and yeahitismark, both with their last posts a month ago, although WLC has been active elsewhere. We had prods, right? Eh.

I'll probably need another look at d3sisted. Bookitty, can you expand on what the voting patterns are?

I should probably be doing more, but I'm still feeling quite bad. Sorry =| back to bed.

how much of this seems familiar?

I was town in that game, and Elmo was scum.

[Adel]

If Porkens is scum; if Spring is NOT scum, then:
his scum buddies want to lynch spring to "test" his claim.
(Ecto, DGB)

As I'm giving SL and Porkens an equal chance of being scum, I'd be happy to vote either. It's safer to lynch SL in case we're wrong, but personally I'd have no compunction to switch to Porkens if we're willing to do it. It's hard for me to imagine that Porkens would out his gambit with an innocent on a townie, rather than an innocent on a scumpal, at this stage of the game. If SL flips scum, he can argue he was insane the next day, haha.

much easier to just call an innocent "innocent" and let that person be your natural ally -- like OMGUS but in reverse.

[Adel]

What (other than his suspicion of Troll and the speed with which the inclusion of Adel as a potential lynch was stated) sets Elmo apart from Troll so far as that goes? What information about Prokens's claim would Elmo's alignment give us?

If Porkens is scum then he is either lying about spring being innocent or he isn't.

Either way, I currently see Elmo as being a highly probable scum partner of a scum-Porkens.

[Adel]

Just to be sure; we have a one-shot vig and a one-shot doctor, right?

+ cop + RB... only the RB is confirmed.

[Adel]

Either way, I currently see Elmo as being a highly probable scum partner of a scum-Porkens.

Why?

Elmo-town should've been all over that claim.

[Adel]

much easier to just call an innocent "innocent" and let that person be your natural ally -- like OMGUS but in reverse.

Yes, I could see that, but now that we're in all probability 6 townies against 3 scum, it may be worth declaring your buddy innocent than an actual innocent. Especially if that buddy is in jeopardy.

it all depends on if he prepared the claim during the night. His change in opinion on spring could be the result of:
1. actually having an innocent
2. having a planned fakeclaim with a innocent on her
3. being told to knock off the bus during the night, and then coming up with the fakeclaim all on his own.

[Adel]

So if Elmo be scum then Porkens be more likely to be scum. If Elmo be town how does this help us determine Porkens's alignment?

I would be sold on it... keep in mind that we will have another investigation result from him.

[Adel]

Adel, why don't you think you were quickhammered, in each of the following stages: L-1, softclaim, fullclaim? I know this has been asked before, but considering that we are currently assuming that there was at least one scum not on your wagon, it seems poignant to ask again.

who wasn't on my wagon at those times? DGB, Ecto, Troll, and Elmo. The only people I can see trying that (a true quickhammer) as scum is DGB or Ecto "under the influence"... but I was worried about one of them writing a long post impeaching me, and then hammering after a respectful pause of 8 hours or so. I think my soft claim probably saved my ass.

[Adel]

I think my soft claim probably saved my ass.

I doubt it, a good scum would have said: "a soft-claim? Hammah!" and be done with you and this whole annoying day phase.

Vi did call for one... perhaps this post is why his partner hesitated?

It wouldn't be bad to hear from him, but this is one of those times when I wouldn't mind an untimely hammer.

It still feels like there are only a few people playing this game. We need more player variety ITT.

unvote, vote: Vi

[Adel]

Also, a good scum would have bus'ed you and hammered.

Unless there already were two scum on your wagon. Then the third might hesitate to join the herd. Mind you, I have seen a whole scumteam pile on zwet-scum on Day 1, but that's zwet so...

lol, zwet !=Adel

[Adel]

Troll be trying to make sure that all have looked at DrippingGoofball carefully to make their own decisions and the votes no indicate that Troll has done anything that convinces others that DrippingGoofball's bussnng comment be overly suspicious despite what Troll thinks.

Did I miss your characteristic thorough evaluation of Porkens' claim and everything that surrounds it?

Perhaps it just failed to impress you. Troll's evaluation of the claim be light but be found in Post 1150 where Troll said:

The thing that strikes Troll most about Porken's cop claim be how well it explains his interactions with springlullaby on day one compared to day two. springlullaby be another matter, though apparently there be some claimed picking up on a breadcrumb and in any case, Troll has little interest in lynching either today.

It builds on what Troll said earlier in Post 867 where Troll said:

As for Troll's stance on the group of Porkens, springlullaby and Vi, Troll does agree that it be likely that at least one of the three be scum. Troll has little interest in voting for Vi today. Troll does find the interactions of Porkens and springlullaby today (compared to yesterday) to be interesting. Yesterday them were among each other's biggest detractors. Today them have been largely oblivious of each other (though Porkens did say that one of springlullaby's posts attacking Adel made her look town.)

Troll, I think the key words were "characteristic thorough evaluation"

it all depends on if he prepared the claim during the night. His change in opinion on spring could be the result of:
1. actually having an innocent
2. having a planned fakeclaim with a innocent on her
3. being told to knock off the bus during the night, and then coming up with the fakeclaim all on his own.

you never seemed to consider that it might be fake.

[Adel]

After the last couple of pages, I'm getting confident that Troll and DGB do not share an alignment.

[Adel]

my mislynch + Vi calling for a hammer, + his partner hammering would link the two, and put Vi (or his partner) up for a pretty sure lynch the next day.

[Adel]

ok

vote: Vi

[Adel]

Vi be focused just now perhaps more than Troll would care for but there be care taken in the posts and Troll no thinks that it be a thoughtless attack. Troll liked how Vi played day one once Vi started posting (Troll be influenced here by Vi's interactions with Troll which seemed appropriate given Troll's play.) At this time Troll tentatively suspects that Vi be town with the push on Adel and exchanges with Elmo but this could change depending on how today's lynch turns out and what this night looks like.

Troll would like to hear what Vi thinks about DrippingGoofball at this time.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

calling a Troll + Vi scumgroup... again.

[Adel]

I would tend to think that all 3 of us would be town, but I also recognize that scum can dig in and refuse to lynch a townie simply in order to not be on that wagon. (Which by the way Adel, is why I think your breaking up a town wagon on day 1 doesn't mean a thing)

I don't have time to fact check this.. could someone else look and see if Ecto has been consistent about thinking that me busting up Atrem's wagon day 1 is a null-tell?

[Adel]

pretty much just

Because Adel went overboarb at that point in time. Is there a reason you are asking for Porkens and I to justify our vote, but not Vi?

Yeah, Vi is on my todo list.

and a general absence of evidence.
nothign that sells it, like what I see between Prokens and Elmo.

[Adel]

My point is Ecto, that Adel ought to have been hammered. He softclaimed power role, which almost always means doctor, and the scum wouldn't suspect one shot, so why not hammer the doctor? The Vi thing only works if his scumbuddies are actually the kind to do that. If Adel does believe that Elmo and Troll are Vi's buddies,

then it doesn't make sense that she'd ask them to hammer

, because they are too cautious to ever do so in a credible way. Which leads me back to my point, Adel ought to have been hammered.

Vi's only been scum twice. wouldn't know better.

[Adel]

it was buried in a larger post.

I don't follow. You have justified your vote on Adel today on the ground that she hadn't 'delivered' as a proof of scuminess. Yet your meta was that she did 'deliver' as both town and scum.

At risk of sounding patronizing, it was also in a timely manner. In the other game I saw Adel offer a questionnaire, the results were compiled and fully explained D1, and while a big show was made about how it was

so much work

to compile the answers, it was pretty easy to put together. (And pretty impressive, admittedly.)

I did respond to other votes on me, did I not?

Ah... yes, you did. I was mistaken. (Those responses were the defensive flare-ups mentioned earlier.)

I mean coaching defined as trying to influence a buddy's play.
i.e. You commenting on Adel 'pulling strings' followed by 'I don't think it's necessary'.

The comment in itself kinda don't fit in your scenario of yourself trying to determine Adel's alignment between the lines. Giving hints as to how you think she should act kinda defeat the purpose of observation, no?

I'm not sure if you're hinting that I was trying to pass along a secret message or just misreading, but "I don't think it's necessary" was referring to my decision on whether I should move my vote.

The point to the above being? I did pressure Artem a fair bit.

Mostly out of defense from Artem's accusation, and for a total of... two and a half posts, IIRC.
I did pressure Herodotus quite a bit (for what it's worth), and also Adel quite a bit (for what it's worth)... and you regarding your absence and immediate defensiveness, though you never responded (#24).

-----

1) Third, Vi seems primed to make the kind of wall of word quote battles that won't do much to help the town,
2) and if I were to vote for him OMGUS would be the reply.

1) *reads your posts on Page 29* You can't be serious.
2) Really? Odd that the meta expert accuses me of potentially doing something that I never do. (at least in relation to votes; I have told people they suck on a few occasions though)

Combined with the way Hero was rapidly hammered yesterday before I got going, I'm looking at the following narrative as a possibility:

SpyreX is scum, and was expecting

me

to push a major case against him. He decided to setup a fake claim of Vig, and started the "if I have a gun" claim yesterday. Once this day started, SpyreX saw that there was a second kill (expected if SpryeX is a SK, unexpected if SpryeX is mafia) and SpryeX claimed.

One thing about all of your theories up to this point - they revolve around YOU. Another thing to note is that you haven't actually pushed a major case against... well... anyone really, until now.

Vi, SpyreX and Ecto are all voting for me, and they were all in on Hero's lynch as well.

Over half the player list was on the Day 1 wagon

-----

Elmo, yesterday you gave a sarcastic response to Herodotus when he said that he would be inclined to lynch me. Has your opinion changed?
What do you think of the SpyreX/Adel exchange?

-----

Was this some kind of an attempt at a reverse verbal trap by you Vi? Like if I said he was scummy for dropping it, I was somehow trying to say I was pro-town for sticking to my guns?

Reverse verbal trap? Forget quote walls, this topic is getting bogged down in pseudo-scientific mafiaspeak.
I wanted your opinion on Artem in light of how that was basically what he did and (later) advocated doing. I would later use this to gauge how fluid your opinion was.

@Spyrex - wtf? There is no reason you should have let yourself be goaded into that. A lack of 2 NK's would have made me believe a lot more in the Vig claim (roleblocker is dead). At least you would possibly have gotten targeted for a kill, but now you just give up that you are essentially a VT after last night?

Why is this phrased as a question? This claim makes it beyond unlikely that SpyreX is an SK. But it seems like you're trying to frame it as scummy.

-----

btw I'm at lynch -2 -- and Porkens (Mr. "I always hammer" and member of "Bad at Mafia") has posted exactly once during this day.

It wouldn't be bad to hear from him, but this is one of those times when I wouldn't mind an untimely hammer. It's like having zwet around, but awesome.

I'm calling a SpyreX

(voting for Adel)

+ 2 out of (Porkens

(absentee)

+ Vi

(voting)

+ Ecto

(voting)

) scumgroup. I'm willing to vote for any of the three.

This looks a whole lot like what Artem got blasted for D1...

I freely acknowledge I don't understand Adel 710. 711 is what Adel would term "blather". But I see SpyreX's post quoted in 713 as being rather unhelpful on a pragmatic level - not that it influences my opinion of his alignment.

It still feels like there are only a few people playing this game. We need more player variety ITT.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 66#1707466

[Adel]

Adel, so you now believe that it is an Elmo/Vi/Troll scumgroup? Can you find some way of linking Elmo to the other two?

pretty much just

Because Adel went overboarb at that point in time. Is there a reason you are asking for Porkens and I to justify our vote, but not Vi?

Yeah, Vi is on my todo list.

and a general absence of evidence.
nothign that sells it, like what I see between Prokens and Elmo.

An absence of evidence does not make a case.

you asked me to find some way, and I played along. Your quip "An absence of evidence does not make a case" adds nothing, and out of context makes me look scummy... like you were making a serious objection to a serious case I was making.

[Adel]

Look, Adel. You think they're a scum group, there ought to be some connection. If you can't back it up, and I call you on it, don't make me out to be the bad guy.

when did I say (Elmo+Vi+Troll) were a scum group?

quotes, please.

[Adel]

If Adel does believe that Elmo and Troll are Vi's buddies, then it doesn't make sense that she'd ask them to hammer, because they are too cautious to ever do so in a credible way.

all I can find are you putting these words, which I never said, into my mouth.

[Adel]

Adel, so you now believe that it is an Elmo/Vi/Troll scumgroup? Can you find some way of linking Elmo to the other two?

what on earth gave you the idea that I thought they were in a group together?

if that was an honest question of your's why didn't

and a general absence of evidence.
nothign that sells it, like what I see between Prokens and Elmo.

qualify as a negative answer for you?

[Adel]

Notice I said if, after asking you whether it was true and before receiving an answer. My course of action was reasonable, your reaction is defensive and highly suspect.

this confusion is all just semantic noise.
i misunderstood your question (i thought you were posing a hypothetical), you misunderstood my answer, you objected to what you thought my answer was ("yes they are a group"... except how does that resolve with the Elmo|Porkens pairing i explicitly stated within that post?) and I objected to your objection.. and now you are saying that my reaction to the semantic noise is defensive and suspect.

huh.

[Adel]

i'm kind of specific about that sort of thing. you might have noticed.

[Adel]

Generally, when I ask a Y/N question, then an if so, why question. I expect a no to be no, not the answer to the second.

i missed that it was a direct y/n .. I thought you were posting a hypothetical.

[Adel]

My point is Ecto, that Adel ought to have been hammered. He softclaimed power role, which almost always means doctor, and the scum wouldn't suspect one shot, so why not hammer the doctor? The Vi thing only works if his scumbuddies are actually the kind to do that. If Adel does believe that Elmo and Troll are Vi's buddies,

then it doesn't make sense that she'd ask them to hammer

, because they are too cautious to ever do so in a credible way. Which leads me back to my point, Adel ought to have been hammered.

Vi's only been scum twice. wouldn't know better.

It's not a matter of being scum any number of times. When you have cool-headed teammates, you don't call for a hot-headed action. Vi is plenty competent.

it was buried in a larger post.

I don't follow. You have justified your vote on Adel today on the ground that she hadn't 'delivered' as a proof of scuminess. Yet your meta was that she did 'deliver' as both town and scum.

At risk of sounding patronizing, it was also in a timely manner. In the other game I saw Adel offer a questionnaire, the results were compiled and fully explained D1, and while a big show was made about how it was

so much work

to compile the answers, it was pretty easy to put together. (And pretty impressive, admittedly.)

I did respond to other votes on me, did I not?

Ah... yes, you did. I was mistaken. (Those responses were the defensive flare-ups mentioned earlier.)

I mean coaching defined as trying to influence a buddy's play.
i.e. You commenting on Adel 'pulling strings' followed by 'I don't think it's necessary'.

The comment in itself kinda don't fit in your scenario of yourself trying to determine Adel's alignment between the lines. Giving hints as to how you think she should act kinda defeat the purpose of observation, no?

I'm not sure if you're hinting that I was trying to pass along a secret message or just misreading, but "I don't think it's necessary" was referring to my decision on whether I should move my vote.

The point to the above being? I did pressure Artem a fair bit.

Mostly out of defense from Artem's accusation, and for a total of... two and a half posts, IIRC.
I did pressure Herodotus quite a bit (for what it's worth), and also Adel quite a bit (for what it's worth)... and you regarding your absence and immediate defensiveness, though you never responded (#24).

-----

1) Third, Vi seems primed to make the kind of wall of word quote battles that won't do much to help the town,
2) and if I were to vote for him OMGUS would be the reply.

1) *reads your posts on Page 29* You can't be serious.
2) Really? Odd that the meta expert accuses me of potentially doing something that I never do. (at least in relation to votes; I have told people they suck on a few occasions though)

Combined with the way Hero was rapidly hammered yesterday before I got going, I'm looking at the following narrative as a possibility:

SpyreX is scum, and was expecting

me

to push a major case against him. He decided to setup a fake claim of Vig, and started the "if I have a gun" claim yesterday. Once this day started, SpyreX saw that there was a second kill (expected if SpryeX is a SK, unexpected if SpryeX is mafia) and SpryeX claimed.

One thing about all of your theories up to this point - they revolve around YOU. Another thing to note is that you haven't actually pushed a major case against... well... anyone really, until now.

Vi, SpyreX and Ecto are all voting for me, and they were all in on Hero's lynch as well.

Over half the player list was on the Day 1 wagon

-----

Elmo, yesterday you gave a sarcastic response to Herodotus when he said that he would be inclined to lynch me. Has your opinion changed?
What do you think of the SpyreX/Adel exchange?

-----

Was this some kind of an attempt at a reverse verbal trap by you Vi? Like if I said he was scummy for dropping it, I was somehow trying to say I was pro-town for sticking to my guns?

Reverse verbal trap? Forget quote walls, this topic is getting bogged down in pseudo-scientific mafiaspeak.
I wanted your opinion on Artem in light of how that was basically what he did and (later) advocated doing. I would later use this to gauge how fluid your opinion was.

@Spyrex - wtf? There is no reason you should have let yourself be goaded into that. A lack of 2 NK's would have made me believe a lot more in the Vig claim (roleblocker is dead). At least you would possibly have gotten targeted for a kill, but now you just give up that you are essentially a VT after last night?

Why is this phrased as a question? This claim makes it beyond unlikely that SpyreX is an SK. But it seems like you're trying to frame it as scummy.

-----

btw I'm at lynch -2 -- and Porkens (Mr. "I always hammer" and member of "Bad at Mafia") has posted exactly once during this day.

It wouldn't be bad to hear from him, but this is one of those times when I wouldn't mind an untimely hammer. It's like having zwet around, but awesome.

I'm calling a SpyreX

(voting for Adel)

+ 2 out of (Porkens

(absentee)

+ Vi

(voting)

+ Ecto

(voting)

) scumgroup. I'm willing to vote for any of the three.

This looks a whole lot like what Artem got blasted for D1...

I freely acknowledge I don't understand Adel 710. 711 is what Adel would term "blather". But I see SpyreX's post quoted in 713 as being rather unhelpful on a pragmatic level - not that it influences my opinion of his alignment.

It still feels like there are only a few people playing this game. We need more player variety ITT.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 66#1707466

are you still sticking with this defense of VI, btw?

[Adel]

You can't escape on loopholes. If you state separate suspicion of players, you need to show some link between the two or show why you were wrong about one and not the other.

jesus, I posted this just a couple of hours ago:

I don't do lists. I use competing models, each of which produces different conclusions. Sometimes I try to mesh those (always evolving) conclusions into a list, but the result is pretty ugly and full of qualifiers.

I have the Porkens+Elmo as one group (Porkens+Spring as second group with some overlap) and Vi+Troll as another. Currently I favor the Vi+Troll model.

[Adel]

It's not a matter of being scum any number of times. When you have cool-headed teammates,

you don't call for a hot-headed action

. Vi is plenty competent.

it wasn't a call for a hot headed action. it was buried in a larger post, and you know as well as I do that 2 large post to prep a hammer + hammer is not a "hot headed action." The players who could make it seem well considered and not hot-headed at all (i.e. get away with it) were all off of my wagon.

[Adel]

That's really great, but ultimately, one of those has to be wrong. I don't speak for you,

then don't.

That's really great, but ultimately, one of those has to be wrong. I don't speak for you, but you seem to think that both are sufficiently convincing to lynch from

I didn't say that, so don't say that I did.

That's really great, but ultimately, one of those has to be wrong. I don't speak for you, but you seem to think that both are sufficiently convincing to lynch from, so until you have one theory that outstrips the others significantly, I am going to continue to detract from any wagon you push.

ok. feel free to reply to the posts that I am actually making that are on topic, k? are you attempting to sabotage the Vi wagon without defending him too directly?

[Adel]

When you want to lynch someone three pages ago,

I didn't say that I wanted to lynch Elmo... I said that I thought that lynching him would be the ebst way to test Porken's claim (as opposed to the spring wagon with I oppose)

then start a new case on someone else and want to lynch them now, I don't fricking trust the credibility of either.

read my posts kid.

I've been consistent about who I am willing to lynch, with the minor exception of Troll.

[Adel]

And no, any wagon does not mean a Vi wagon. For someone so focused on what I'm saying about you, you don't seem to mind telling me what I'm doing.

the Vi wagon is where my vote is at, and what I'm advocating, and what you are distracting from with this attitude of your's.

[Adel]

And no, any wagon does not mean a Vi wagon. For someone so focused on what I'm saying about you, you don't seem to mind telling me what I'm doing.

I'll go ahead and tell you what you should be doing: shutting up, reading the game, and thinking about it. Your fingers seem to be moving faster than your brain, and it isn't doing us any good.

[Adel]

Adel and DrippingGoofball, why do you be voting for Vi ahead of Troll?

basically, assuming that Porkens' SpryeX's claims are true & Porkens is sane, and spring is not investigation immune, I figure that one of the players on my wagon were scum.... which now that I look it is a bunch of assumption, but it is still better than what I have on you, which basically continues to be nothing. If Vi is town than so (probably) are you.

[Adel]

that is it for me tonight.... the question I'm pondering is "how fucked are we if spring is a GF?"

[Adel]

.

Elmo-town should've been all over that claim.

Why? ..specifically? You and DGB seem very vocally opposed to Porkens, but I'm not seeing hard reasons why. His claim looks fine to me.

claim timing and content.

[Adel]

Why do so many of you hold such strong opinions one way or another re: Adel? I don't know how many times I've read you people saying "Adel is town" or "Adel is scum" or "I'm never going to vote Adel", or "I'm voting Adel and that's my last post for the day" (you came back by the way)
That makes no sense to me at all. Clearly some of you are making statements that are not backed by facts, or are backed by facts that the town does not know. I seriously doubt that all of you that have expressed such strong opinions have a valid reason to do so. The only thing I

do

know where those people are concerned is that I know the alignment of one of them, and he was town,

but not an investigative role and not a mason

That tells me that at least some people are talking out of their asses or have scum motivations. You see where that has me looking though don't you? At

you

people, not Adel. Problem is, "you people" does not give me Player X and I think we probably don't have the luxury of an informational lynch even if we had a clear idea of who to go after dependent upon Adel's alignment.

.

Are you breadcrumbing cop there, if so counterclaim now.

I'm not going to trust you with something like this because you breadcrumbed cop by asking cop not to counterclaim in grimmafia as scum also.

Are you rolefishing here? Because if you are, I have not yet seen you respond to Troll's request for a Mass Claim. I'd like you to respond to Troll's question directly, like now.

I you want to accuse me of rolefishing when I ask you clearly to counterclaim, then so be it. Just be assured that giving your response there, I will not buy any cop counterclaim from you in the future.

would other players please consider the possibility of a Prokens+Spring scum team here?

The only way to test if spring is GF or not is to lynch her. The only way to tell if spring or Prokens are scum together is to lynch spring. The only way to test if Porkens is sane or not is to lynch spring. A spring-town lynch will not prove that Porkens is also town, unfortunetly, but this is why you don't claim with only one innocent.

The combined risk of spring-GF, Prokens|spring scumteam, and non-sane Prokens is enough to make me want to lynch spring.

unvote, vote:spring

[Adel]

oh, oh, I just membered. Adel; do you remember the whole "herod breadcrumbed doc and Adel understood" bit? Did you actually understand his breadcrumbing at the time, as he claimed?

yes.

and it pisses me off that a player astute enough to post

I'm just gunna look stupid this game, I guess.

I see neither a breadcrumb nor Adel picking up on one.

An improper capital "D" -- probably the first spelling error I've made on the site outside of maybe marathon games
"Don't worry, you might not die" -- because you might be protected

So, I don't really know with 100% certainty that Adel was really responding to these as I thought he was, nor that his motivations weren't scum-based. It just seemed that way.
Also, I hope Adel doesn't mind my pointing this out; it works against his ostensible plan to look suspicious enough to avoid the NK. But if I didn't say something, it might have been for nothing.

got killed by an "accidental" hammer.

This game is getting close to burning me out.

[Adel]

oh, oh, I just membered. Adel; do you remember the whole "herod breadcrumbed doc and Adel understood" bit? Did you actually understand his breadcrumbing at the time, as he claimed?

yes.

So you believed he was breadcrumbing doc?

I thought he made a post that could later be used to support a doc claim.

[Adel]

claim timing and content.

If you actually think Porkens is fakeclaiming, you should be trying to convince me. This is an evasive non-answer. Do you actually have a strong reason to suspect Porkens?

his accidental hammer
the way he joined the Atrem and Adel wagons
his unforced claim clearing an innocent that wasn't under threat of lynch
slowtalking us

[Adel]

And this compelled you to believe he was town?

nope. I was pretty agnostic on his alignment. I wanted to test his claim.

[Adel]

And this compelled you to believe he was town?

nope. I was pretty agnostic on his alignment. I wanted to test his claim.

you thought it likely that there were two docs?

not two normal docs, but two doc variants, sure, totally possible. A breakcrumb to be used for a later fakecalim would be even more likely.

[Adel]

slowtalking us

I saw this discussion the first time, but could you summarize this point for me?

in other words "playing dumb" (game actions, faked lack of attention, faked lack of skill) when he isn't.

[Adel]

*False. (Investigate Lord Gurgi if you're that worried about it)

The four most common cop sanities are, in descending order of occurrence:
1. Sane
2. Paranoid
3. Naive
4. Insane (reverse report)

The innocent report eliminates 2.
Lynching spring today eliminates either 4. or 1.

Investigating LG will only eliminate 3. if LG is scum.

[Adel]

And this compelled you to believe he was town?

nope. I was pretty agnostic on his alignment. I wanted to test his claim.

you thought it likely that there were two docs?

not two normal docs, but two doc variants, sure, totally possible. A breakcrumb to be used for a later fakecalim would be even more likely.

I don't understand; if you saw him setting up for a fake claim, why didn't you have a stronger scum-read on him?

YOU HAMMERED BEFORE WE COULD TEST HIS CLAIM!

[Adel]

you don't assume that you kno9w other people's alignments on day 1, because you don't. You don't assume you know what roles could be in the setup day 1, because you don't.

[Adel]

jesus, i'm done for today.

[Adel]

And this compelled you to believe he was town?

nope. I was pretty agnostic on his alignment. I wanted to test his claim.

you thought it likely that there were two docs?

not two normal docs, but two doc variants, sure, totally possible. A breakcrumb to be used for a later fakecalim would be even more likely.

I don't understand; if you saw him setting up for a fake claim, why didn't you have a stronger scum-read on him?

YOU HAMMERED BEFORE WE COULD TEST HIS CLAIM!

How could we have tested his claim before the end of the day?

1. give him a chance to claim before he got hammered
2. see who goes on and off his wagon at lynch -1 before he claims
3. see if his claim makes sense.

[Adel]

For fuck sake. Bloody kill it with fire already.

Adel town:
Elmo,

Ecto

, Zorb = scum for bloody avoiding the wagon like suck.

Adel scum:
Vi,

Ecto

= scum --> bussing may vary depending on importance of Adel's scum role.

yet spring is not voting for Ecto.

[Adel]

If "he isn't very credible", why do you not just point that out instead of trying to make him look worse than he really is?

too emotionally involved. taking a break now to cool off.

Actually, thinking back to around the time Porkens claimed, this bugs me. You've seemed very controlled and almost distant in your posting, so this seems like an anomaly to me - in fact, the only traces of emotion I can remember have been when you've attacked Porkens there. And you're using it to justify doing undermining Porkens's claim by bringing up stuff like the him lying as town in the past. I find it odd that you'd have the viewpoint that Porkens is definitely fakeclaiming instead of being ambivalent about it,

I have trouble being ambivalent when the options are 1) scum pulling a fast one on the town and acutally getting me lynched on day 2, or 2) seriously anti-optimal play by a casual player resulting in me actually getting lynched on day 2

and the reasons in 1278 are either meaningless (

what

about the way he joined the Artem wagon?

IIRC, he was following korts, and it was a OMGUS reaction (WITH L-2 warning!) against Atrem's vote a couple of posts before.

WTF is "slowtalking"?)

letting other people think that you are dumb/notinterested/not paying attention when you actually are smart/paying attention/interested

or wrong (he said he'd have hammered anyway, so he clearly wasn't using it as an excuse;

a good excuse is one that works.
his works, and I can't believe it

I think his claim was fine and you've not given me any reason to think otherwise.)

do you hinestly think that climing cop in that posistion is better for a town player in his shoes, or a scum player in his shoes?

And there's a very clear reason you'd need to do that as scum, I mean you've basically said it yourself:

Assuming that (LG, Porkens, spring,

Adel

) are all town, the biggest problem for scum is eliminating innocents.

so as scum you would have a very clear incentive to try and undermine his position, and you've at least acknowledged you tried to do that at the time. You've consistently tried to do that thereafter; your most recent idea is lynching Spring to test Porkens, which is also targeting someone who basically everyone accepts as likely town. Your vote before that was on Vi, who I've said I'm pretty convinced is town; around that time, you said you were calling a Vi+Zorblag scum group, but your vote's never appeared on Zorblag subsequently.

I will gladly vote Zorblag to save my as today.
Adel mislynch -> dead cop.

DGB has done nothing but sing your praises, which you've accepted quite uncritically, I think.

I can't fight

everyone

in the same game, and I don't see any tells against DGB.

(Feel free to put it off until responding to this until tomorrow, I wouldn't hold that against anyone.)
[/quote]

[Adel]

I figue that the bussing comment was nothing more than her holding more than one possibility in her mind at a time.

Would Adel lynch DrippingGoofball at this time to save his ass?

nope.

[Adel]

I'm also not willing to lynch Porkens or Elmo.

[Adel]

y'all hammered me?

[Adel]

meh, go town.

I don't want to watch how this is going to work out.

[Adel]

you are, probably.

I'm guessing a Porkens+spring team.

[Adel]

meeting Yhtill in the mountains tomorrow.

V/LA for 86 hours from this post.

[Adel]

wrong thread, sorry ;/

[Adel]

what the hell ever dude. I think you should be thankful that I recognized that that you were going to be relentless about busing me & I adopted to your less than optimal tactic. You are welcome, and I hope you get that scummy so that you can experience the joy of being everyone's policy lynch.

[Adel]

btw, after I was hammered I almost posted "by lynching me you will only make me stronger"

[Adel]

I just saw the last post.

also, big fail by me for typing "adopted" instead of "adapted"

Thanks for modding caf.

[Adel]

bigger fail by me for only responding to

What Adel was pushing was basically insane

and

With that said, I have no problem lynching bad logicians of any alignment.

Sorry about that. I have a pretty bad attitude towards mafia right now.

this:

, and I'm still not sure how so many people bought the pushes on SpyreX/Porkens/s-lully. Plus I felt someone would catch me if I started going along with things that didn't make sense to me (SpyreX: "Hey Vi you know you're better than this").

is pretty solid.

Anyhow, good on you Vi for not getting lynched. Ideally the strong bus should have come from the godfather, but with every powerrole outed before day 2 was over it didn't really matter.

I think that spryex and porkens blew this game for the town. Horrible power-role play, simply terrible. It was like a scum wet dream of a massclaim: all town power-roles out themselves on day 2.

I just took a look at the QT. I think that cop+RB+1shot vig is decently balanced by 2 goons + GF, slightly favoring the town, but not strongly. Vi awarding me all of those points in that long post sure made me feel like a fool for my last post on the last page.

This will probably be my last game for quite a while, so thanks for it. I actually enjoyed it, especially day 2. That was fun.

[Adel]

Adel, lynching you as scum is a result of your town playstyle. Optimal play for town is to get reads from you then lynch you.

and as a consequence of a large number of players choosing to policy lynch me for profeciency, an optimal life-choice for me is to not play mafia anymore.
This is a phenomenon that seems to continually drive good players out of the game, similar to the one that drives "unconventional" thinkers out of the game.
The net result is a larger and larger number of players who are conformists and "average".

For Vi I don't think it's the same. Vi's tactics worked because it wasn't optimal. Nobody expected you to go along with suboptimal play. So choke up your balls for a second and thank Vi for the win.

At the end of day 2 I had a ton of confidence that we would win.
Thanks for the win, Ecto and VI, and Porkens and Spryex!

[Adel]

@Bridges and Balloons: your meta on DGB was almost good stuff. Your process had me nodding my head, but your sample size was just too small to reach a conclusion with any confidence since the difference was so small. Continue using similar processes, more often, and you'll get some really good results. That is how I scum hunt, and it is time consuming and frustrating, since 9/10 times you get a result that isn't clear enough to base a solid opinion on, but the 1/10 times you get a clear result you'll be like a cop with a successful investigation result.

[Adel]

thanks Elmo, if there were more players like you, I would still be playing mafia. You are a really strong player, you conserve your words, and you keep a good attitude (far better than I do!) -- all in all a great person to play games with.

[Adel]

How many more games do you think I would have had to extend it to in order to get a reliable result?

for that specific tell and that specific player the variance was probably too great for it to every be solid, but more is always better. Keep on looking for stuff like that, and you WILL find players with (for example) a sample size of 7 games as town and 4 as scum, where the tell is in 6 of the games as town and only one of the games as scum... then you have something better to work with.
DGB is a horrible player to meta (I've played several games with her) since she seems so perfectly erratic that I never found a good tell for her.

I'm not sure that even doing 10 times as many games would have convinced people

convincing people is a different problem.