Mafia 70: Traditional - Game over!

[Patrick]

Votecount

Setael (3) -- JDodge, Battle Mage, Bookitty
Bookitty (5) -- KaleiÐoscøpe, Niv, Setael, Simenon, Mastermind of Sin
Battle Mage (1) -- Elmo
Mastermind of Sin (1) -- Skruffs

Not voting: Korejora, Ether, Sir Tornado, ZONEACE
14 alive, 8 to lynch.

[Bookitty]

Are you attempting to defend Mastermind of Sin, Setael? I notice you're not actually answering any of my questions, which were posted right above your last post.

Why is that?

[Bookitty]

Bookitty, does your latest suspicion of MoS mean you now disbelieve all of this? Does the fact that he thinks I made a decent case on you outweigh all these reasons you gave for thinking he's town?

I'm asking him questions. And, if you were really convinced I was scum, Setael, then why would you be making the assumption that I believe or disbelieve ANYTHING I'm saying? Your arguments in my direction all indicate that you think I'm town, and that I might "suspect" MoS of being scum, something SCUM would not do, or need to do.

So you're revealing that you don't even believe your own case, in presenting it.

But you did give several reasons to think that Zorg/BM was town and then concluded he was likely scum. Your explanation of this is the fact that OTHER people had cases on Zorg that you didn't want to repeat, so rather than bother to give your own reasons to suspect Zorg, you just agreed with everyone else's cases. Isn't that what you're accusing MoS of?

The post you keep referring to was not a case on anyone. It was evidence collected from TS's interactions with people, along with my opinions on that evidence. The evidence was in quote form. The opinions were prefaced by "I think" or occasionally "in my view". I don't think there's much mistaking between the two, and there's certainly always the possibility that others would have interpreted them differently. That said, what I was accusing MoS of was adopting someone else's argument without actually having read it and understood it, as an excuse to jump onto a bandwagon unnoticed. I said that, quite clearly.

Now, I'm pretty convinced you know I'm town, Setael, and if by some chance you're able to get me lynched, I want people remembering who followed your argument without even seeming to notice that it was calling for a vote on himself. That's the point of my questioning, and I think it worked. And I doubt you can find a parallel in anything I have done, but please, feel free to try.

[Setael]

Setael, what do you think of Mastermind of Sin's reasoning for joining the wagon on me?

I think it's possible you and he are both scum and you are now distancing for the inevitability that you are lynched today and come up scum. It's hard to have good reasons to join a scumbuddy's wagon, I'll give ya that.

I think another possibility is that MoS is really busy, which he has stated in other games I am in with him. This would also be a legitimate excuse for agreeing with a case and voting because of it rather than coming up with new reasons.

The second possibility is much more likely, considering I think if MoS was scum he'd find a better reason to join your wagon (regardless of your alignment).

You made a case on me, so obviously I'm your top suspect. If that were not the case, who (two or three people, not just Battle Mage, please) would you be most suspicious of at this point? Can you elaborate on why you'd be suspicious of them (and include Battle Mage in this, if you don't mind)?

Well, that's kind of a weird question since you're asking me to pretend I think you're town and then say what I'd think of everyone. If you were to be lynched and come up town, I'd need to reread.

If I'm right and you're scum, I'm still suspicious of BM for reasons I've already given and of Simenon and Ether for reasons I don't want to give yet. JDodge is on my town list if you come up scum, in part because he's not on your wagon yet and if he was scum, I think he would be.

Bookitty, I'd like you to answer your own question and give a scum list, please.

I'm asking him questions. And, if you were really convinced I was scum, Setael, then why would you be making the assumption that I believe or disbelieve ANYTHING I'm saying? Your arguments in my direction all indicate that you think I'm town, and that I might "suspect" MoS of being scum, something SCUM would not do, or need to do.

Actually, if you think about it logically instead of just trying to paint me as scummy, you realize that this actually shows I'm town, since I think you're scum but I don't KNOW and so I don't talk as though I KNOW.

I guess I should restate this so you have to answer it instead of avoiding the question by attacking my tone:

Bookitty, your latest suspicion of MoS seems to indicate that you are now trying to get us to think he's scum, when just a few posts ago you were arguing that he's town. What has changed to change your mind? Does the fact that he agreed with my case alone outweigh all the reasons you gave to think he's town?

The post you keep referring to was not a case on anyone. It was evidence collected from TS's interactions with people, along with my opinions on that evidence. The evidence was in quote form. The opinions were prefaced by "I think" or occasionally "in my view". I don't think there's much mistaking between the two, and there's certainly always the possibility that others would have interpreted them differently. That said, what I was accusing MoS of was adopting someone else's argument without actually having read it and understood it, as an excuse to jump onto a bandwagon unnoticed. I said that, quite clearly.

So... do you deny that you presented "evidence" (based on Zorg's interactions with TS) that Zorg was likely town? Regardless of whether you call it a case or not, it's still a reason to think Zorg is town, which is not the conclusion you came to. The reason you gave for this a few posts ago was that other people were generally suspicious of Zorg, and that was enough for you to be suspicious as well, regardless of evidence you'd found that would lead you to believe that Zorg was town. This is worse than what you're accusing MoS of. In fact, I'd say it's an outright lie to accuse MoS of not having read and understood my case on you. He seems to have understood it just fine.

Now, I'm pretty convinced you know I'm town, Setael, and if by some chance you're able to get me lynched, I want people remembering who followed your argument without even seeming to notice that it was calling for a vote on himself. That's the point of my questioning, and I think it worked. And I doubt you can find a parallel in anything I have done, but please, feel free to try.

What has convinced you? Your illogical argument that my tone implied I think you're town? Because that doesn't hold water. Anything else?

I disagree that my case was calling for a vote on MoS as you said. But even if that were true, what about all the other people who haven't voted for MoS since I posted my case? Would you say they misunderstood it as well? And if so, why isn't it a scum tell for any of them?

[Ether]

Confession: there wasn't actually much rereading going on there.

I suppose you might want an update. I'm on limited access right now until I write something for English, but I wasn't on limited access the whole week I didn't post. Kore is still scum. (Where is she, anyway?) JDodge and BM are eh. Setael2 is now town. All names listed in this paragraph are in order of scumminess.

I did get around to the span of posts between Bookitty's 1474 and her 1523 that Setael2 attacked her for. There's some BM- and Flarehate, but it's not the sort of material that would bring a newcomer to the fold, as Bookitty implies happened in her 1744. I'm not seeing where the shift in suspicions would have come from, either.

I'm still split for reasons

I

don't want to give yet, and this wagon is too late/the day too early for me to feel comfortable joining it. But yeah, I don't disapprove.

MoS is still town. I can give reasons for that one.

[Simenon]

Skruffs, you seem to be letting Bookitty distract you. Do you now think Bookitty is town? Or just that MoS is scummier? You better have good reason to think Bookitty is town since you are now effectively stalling/possibly derailing her wagon.

To be honest, this makes me consider switching.

[Setael]

I thought you might say that. At some point, anyway.

[Bookitty]

I think it's possible you and he are both scum and you are now distancing for the inevitability that you are lynched today and come up scum. It's hard to have good reasons to join a scumbuddy's wagon, I'll give ya that.

I think another possibility is that MoS is really busy, which he has stated in other games I am in with him. This would also be a legitimate excuse for agreeing with a case and voting because of it rather than coming up with new reasons.

The second possibility is much more likely, considering I think if MoS was scum he'd find a better reason to join your wagon (regardless of your alignment).

What do you base this opinion of MoS on, exactly? Do you feel his arguments and votes have been well supported throughout the game?

You made a case on me, so obviously I'm your top suspect. If that were not the case, who (two or three people, not just Battle Mage, please) would you be most suspicious of at this point? Can you elaborate on why you'd be suspicious of them (and include Battle Mage in this, if you don't mind)?

Well, that's kind of a weird question since you're asking me to pretend I think you're town and then say what I'd think of everyone. If you were to be lynched and come up town, I'd need to reread.

Why not reread now? Humour me.

Bookitty, I'd like you to answer your own question and give a scum list, please.

I've stated quite clearly that I suspect you and Battle Mage of being scumbuddies. I am now thinking Mastermind of Sin may be a third. I don't think I've concealed this.

Actually, if you think about it logically instead of just trying to paint me as scummy, you realize that this actually shows I'm town, since I think you're scum but I don't KNOW and so I don't talk as though I KNOW.

That's not at all the tone you've used. You on the one hand attack repeatedly one person and are not even looking for any other scum, in fact, defending MoS for slipping onto the wagon, and one assumes that if you were town, you wouldn't KNOW his alignment either. Your tone with him is quite different. You make excuses for his behaviour, and make appeals to others who ARE confirmed town (and yes, I do regard Skruffs that way) for pointing out his behaviour.

Bookitty, your latest suspicion of MoS seems to indicate that you are now trying to get us to think he's scum, when just a few posts ago you were arguing that he's town. What has changed to change your mind? Does the fact that he agreed with my case alone outweigh all the reasons you gave to think he's town?

Could you list "all the reasons" I gave to think he was town, please? I'd like to see the quote for that.

In general, I will quote myself from earlier in the game, a post made to MoS as it happens:

What part of "I'm thinking you are town, at the moment" are you missing?

So... do you deny that you presented "evidence" (based on Zorg's interactions with TS) that Zorg was likely town? Regardless of whether you call it a case or not, it's still a reason to think Zorg is town, which is not the conclusion you came to. The reason you gave for this a few posts ago was that other people were generally suspicious of Zorg, and that was enough for you to be suspicious as well, regardless of evidence you'd found that would lead you to believe that Zorg was town. This is worse than what you're accusing MoS of. In fact, I'd say it's an outright lie to accuse MoS of not having read and understood my case on you. He seems to have understood it just fine.

But you haven't understood my case against Battle Mage and yourself very well, or you're deliberately misrepresenting it. I said that while Toaster Strudel interacted with you BOTH in very similar ways, and the evidence against both of you was quite compelling, I didn't feel that she would have been so obvious with BOTH of you. You yourself stated that you thought one, but not both, of Zorg and Flare were scum. Now you replace Flare and suddenly someone who argued the same thing is scummy for it? I thought Flare the more likely candidate.

In fact, let me quote:

I'm thinking at least one of Zorg (Battle Mage) and Flare is scum. I'm not really sure which, but Toaster Strudel's early comment painting Flare as scum, while never pursuing him in any meaningful manner, seems like a better case for his lynch than Zorg's. TS linked herself rather openly to Zorg, not a move I think smart scum would make.

And rereading Flare's posts, which are alternating attacks and withdrawals of those attacks (at least in my view), I don't see anything to make me reconsider this idea.

So you're misstating my case pretty seriously. I haven't defended Battle Mage or MoS. I've recapped Toaster Strudel's interactions and given my opinion on them, clearly labeled as "my opinion" and not as fact.

What has convinced you? Your illogical argument that my tone implied I think you're town? Because that doesn't hold water. Anything else?

I think you're scum. Therefore I think you know I'm town. I don't think you're suspecting me of being scum, or really suspecting anyone. You know, or you don't. I could be wrong, but I'm not feeling that you're uncertain about my alignment at all.

I disagree that my case was calling for a vote on MoS as you said. But even if that were true, what about all the other people who haven't voted for MoS since I posted my case? Would you say they misunderstood it as well? And if so, why isn't it a scum tell for any of them?

Your case was calling for ME to vote for MoS. The scumtell he committed was to adopt your argument, not justify it, and then be put in the awkward situation of saying, Yes, she should have been voting for me all along, which I think you have to admit is an odd accusation to make of someone, especially coming from someone who reacted so negatively to being voted in the first place.

[Simenon]

I thought you might say that. At some point, anyway.

subtlety is not desirable in mafia.

[Setael]

What do you base this opinion of MoS on, exactly? Do you feel his arguments and votes have been well supported throughout the game?

I already answered this in the post you quoted.

The second possibility is much more likely, considering I think if MoS was scum he'd find a better reason to join your wagon (regardless of your alignment).

Why not reread now? Humour me.

I just read. Remember how I JUST replaced in? I read, and I think you're scum. If I'm wrong, I'll reread.

That's not at all the tone you've used. You on the one hand attack repeatedly one person and are not even looking for any other scum, in fact, defending MoS for slipping onto the wagon, and one assumes that if you were town, you wouldn't KNOW his alignment either. Your tone with him is quite different. You make excuses for his behaviour, and make appeals to others who ARE confirmed town (and yes, I do regard Skruffs that way) for pointing out his behaviour.

I was curious what reactions my question to skruffs would bring. He is the cop. His opinion holds a lot of weight, and who he votes has more influence than a lot of us non-confirmeds. I would like to know if he has reason to believe you're town. It does frustrate me that he's not helping more, considering he is the most confirmed player we have.

Could you list "all the reasons" I gave to think he was town, please? I'd like to see the quote for that.

Easy enough. Here it is:

I made my case against MoS. He answered it, and he didn't do so in a way I thought scum would (i.e., attacking someone else), and a meta check on his interactions with ZONEACE led me to believe that part of the defense. I still don't like the comment about two cops being made before the actual revelation that this was the case. That said, MoS responded as if he were town, and I dropped it because TS's interactions seemed to be trying to link to him (deliberately, as opposed to unavoidably) and because it got into WIFOM territory (why would scum say that and draw attention to himself?) and that's not helpful to town in my view.

I think you're scum. Therefore I think you know I'm town. I don't think you're suspecting me of being scum, or really suspecting anyone. You know, or you don't. I could be wrong, but I'm not feeling that you're uncertain about my alignment at all.

Funny. Not only are you wrong, but I could say the exact same thing about you. Word for word.

Your case was calling for ME to vote for MoS. The scumtell he committed was to adopt your argument, not justify it, and then be put in the awkward situation of saying, Yes, she should have been voting for me all along, which I think you have to admit is an odd accusation to make of someone, especially coming from someone who reacted so negatively to being voted in the first place.

Me calling for you to vote MoS is in your head. I don't think you should've unvoted him in the first place, but you voting him now would not solve that. I don't believe you think he's scum, because I think YOU are scum. The fact that you unvoted him for weak reasons is the scum tell, as well as the fact that you had the SAME reasons to clear Zorg/BM, but didn't. That is my point, as much as you misconstrue it, as well as the fact that you have been using a double standard on players which is something you don't do as town. Evidently you do it as scum.

[Bookitty]

Me calling for you to vote MoS is in your head.

Yes, using your logic, you should've either voted for me or dropped the other suspects as you did with me.

Apparently it's in MoS's head too.

Your quote is not a list of reasons MoS is town, but a list of reasons why he wasn't my top suspect, and I think a reasonable person would recognise it as such. Additionally, you're basically criticising me because I was not voting simultaneously for Flare, Battle Mage, and MoS, along with anyone else I had suspected. I have only one vote, Setael, just like everyone else. And your argument that I should vote for everyone who had a suspicious interaction with ToasterStrudel and who I expressed suspicion of is just spurious, impossible, and wrong.

[Setael]

Are you attempting to defend Mastermind of Sin, Setael? I notice you're not actually answering any of my questions, which were posted right above your last post.

Why is that?

That was due to simulposting. You're really reaching.

Yes, using your logic, you should've either voted for me or dropped the other suspects as you did with me.

Apparently it's in MoS's head too.

Except that you're saying my case called for you to vote MoS NOW, correct? Both MoS and I are saying my case is saying you should've either NOT unvoted MoS back then, or if you were going to unvote him, you should've also said you thought Zorg/BM was town like you thought MoS was town, since you had the same evidence on both of them. Has nothing to do with calling for you to vote MoS NOW. It's too late for that. The scum tell happened long ago and can't be fixed by you voting MoS now, so how am I calling for you to vote mos?

Your quote is not a list of reasons MoS is town, but a list of reasons why he wasn't my top suspect, and I think a reasonable person would recognise it as such. Additionally, you're basically criticising me because I was not voting simultaneously for Flare, Battle Mage, and MoS, along with anyone else I had suspected. I have only one vote, Setael, just like everyone else. And your argument that I should vote for everyone who had a suspicious interaction with ToasterStrudel and who I expressed suspicion of is just spurious, impossible, and wrong.

Incorrect. You had every reason to be voting Flare, as I have said several times - you presented what you considered evidence that he and TS were scum together so it made sense to vote him. What didn't make sense was for you to consider Zorg/BM as scummy as Flare to the point where you didn't know which one was scummier RIGHT AFTER giving ONLY reasons to think Zorg was town and ONLY reasons to think Flare was scum. I don't care that you unvoted MoS, I care that you unvoted and cleared MoS but continued to suspect Zorg when it made no sense for you to do so in those circumstances.

Also, you said this quote of yours was not saying mos was town, but was saying why he wasn't your top suspect. Here's your quote again:

I made my case against MoS. He answered it, and

he didn't do so in a way I thought scum would

(i.e., attacking someone else), and a meta check on his interactions with ZONEACE led me to believe that part of the defense. I still don't like the comment about two cops being made before the actual revelation that this was the case. That said,

MoS responded as if he were town

, and I dropped it because

TS's interactions seemed to be trying to link to him (deliberately, as opposed to unavoidably

) and because it got into WIFOM territory (

why would scum say that and draw attention to himself?)

and that's not helpful to town in my view.

Bolded are all the places you imply that he's town. Your goal may have just been to say why he wasn't your top suspect, but what you did was give your reasons for thinking he was town. In fact, it could be argued that this whole paragraph sounds like you KNOW he's town which, funny enough, is an argument you've recently tried to throw at me.

[Bookitty]

You're straining the limits of credulity at this point, Setael, at least for me. If I say someone reacted as if he were town, that wins them townie points with me, sure, but I was pointing out why I'd moved my vote. Toaster Strudel was really hard to read. I stated my suspicions, I haven't kept them secret, and at this point, yes, I'm thinking Mastermind of Sin may be scum as well, based on things he hadn't done yet at the point when I said I thought he might be town. My opinions change depending on what people do. That's because I don't know their alignment already, Setael. Your opinions haven't changed at all since you first decided (without a case) that you were going to be suspicious of me, and that you were going to prove that I was guilty, because... what were your words?

This is pretty depressing to me since if Bookitty was town I think we'd have this game in the bag but if she's scum we've got problems.

That's a pretty strong statement, not one I think is particularly justified, and one that, if you honestly believed it as scum, would lead you to making an attempt to lynch me, exactly as you proceeded to do.

But one thing I have been waiting for, from you, and finally think I'm going to point out, since apparently you lack enough curiosity to do so...

Why didn't you ever accuse me based on the legitimately poor play of my predecessor? Booboodafool made a really stupid error that nearly got him lynched. Yet you don't comment that at all, nor do you seem to be aware of it. Otherwise I don't think you would have let this fact slip by you.

Mastermind of Sin voted for Booboodafool for voting based on someone else's argument. It's called a Person C tell, and it's apparently the subject of some controversy, but Mastermind of Sin didn't seem to have any real ambivalence about it.

Also

Vote yamahako

. Zeppos post #562 was the exact same thing i was thinking.

Unvote, Vote: booboodafool

Person C arguments are among the most accurate, in my opinion. Good catch, The Fonz

Setael does make a convincing case against BooKitty, and considering that she was already near the top of my suspicion list, that's enough to make me

Unvote, Vote: BooKitty

. Setael looks a little better in light of this argument, if she's right.

So, it's among the most accurate, and in the same game, he commits it?

I'm just wondering, since you don't feel you need a reread, whether you were aware of this, Setael?

[Setael]

Why didn't you ever accuse me based on the legitimately poor play of my predecessor? Booboodafool made a really stupid error that nearly got him lynched. Yet you don't comment that at all, nor do you seem to be aware of it. Otherwise I don't think you would have let this fact slip by you.

I never liked the Person C argument. When it was first brought up, I thought what was meant by a Person C argument was something like Person A makes a case against Person B, but then votes Person C. Once they explained, it was clear they meant what you said and at that point I dismissed the argument since I think it's weak. It is done all the time by both town and scum and I don't think it's as good a scum tell as it was made out to be.

I think you are scum based on your actions, not based on anything your predecessor did. I do find it interesting that you call his play "legitimately poor" since that's about all you can do when you replace scum that has been scummy. Regardless of anything your predecessor did, I don't think you've explained your own actions - at least not in a way that makes me think I'm wrong and you're town. I'd rather focus on what you've done, if that's ok with you.

You seem to repeatedly be trying to shake off my points against you by trying to link me to MoS and by bringing up things unrelated to the case I made on you. I don't know MoS' alignment, and my case on you is independent of his alignment regardless of how hard you try to make it rely on it.

Re: the rereading thing. I think that at any point in any game, it would be helpful for every single player to reread. Do we always have time to do so? Nope. Based on your play since Setael1 died and your reaction to my case, you are my #1 scum, and I'm happy with my vote on you.

With the confirmed cop backing you, and simenon doing so as well (albeit as subtly as possible) you're unlikely to get lynched anytime soon. Maybe I'll have time to reread before the rest of the players take a side. No guarantees, since I'd much rather see you lynched before I reread.

[Bookitty]

I never liked the Person C argument. When it was first brought up, I thought what was meant by a Person C argument was something like Person A makes a case against Person B, but then votes Person C. Once they explained, it was clear they meant what you said and at that point I dismissed the argument since I think it's weak. It is done all the time by both town and scum and I don't think it's as good a scum tell as it was made out to be.

The question isn't what you believe, Setael. The question is what Mastermind of Sin believes about the Person C tell. And he stated it was one of the most accurate. Then he committed it himself.

When I start a wagon, as you have done, I'm very careful to watch who tries to slip onto it unnoticed. You seem incurious, defending MoS seemingly without thought. You don't bother to reread either my predecessor, or MoS's past history, simply saying that you think it's more likely he's distracted town... why is that? Why would you make that assumption?

Regardless of what now occurs, I'm certain that people won't forget that he slipped onto this wagon, and that you pushed it, and your arguments will be reexamined in light of whatever else we discover. I don't fear such. At this point, if I'm lynched, I think town has enough information and content to win, so I'm not worried either way.

[Setael]

Bookitty, what are your thoughts on this statement:

"MoS would be more careful to have his own reasons for voting Bookitty if he were scum."

Regardless of what now occurs, I'm certain that people won't forget that he slipped onto this wagon, and that you pushed it, and your arguments will be reexamined in light of whatever else we discover. I don't fear such. At this point, if I'm lynched, I think town has enough information and content to win, so I'm not worried either way.

Well then, I hope I'm right that you're scum so we don't end up with multiple mislynches. If that happens, then regardless of how much info and content the town has, it'd be tough to pull off a win.

Also, if you had no insider info (i.e. if you were a townie) I don't think you would say something like "town has enough information and content to win" because frankly, the town NEVER has enough info and content to win. It's all a guessing game since we have no prior knowledge of anyone's alignment but our own. Plus we've got scummers (like you, nothing personal but I think you're one of them) that are trying to mislead us. As a townie, I'm constantly worried there'll be a mislynch which casts suspicion on the wrong person, causing another mislynch. You seem to not be worried at all and are saying you're confident that the town's going to win. I can't see myself feeling that way as town in a game where there are still a few scums left, so I find your "confidence" scummy.

[Bookitty]

Bookitty, what are your thoughts on this statement:

"MoS would be more careful to have his own reasons for voting Bookitty if he were scum."

I think that you're quick to clear MoS, something that is the main heart of your case against me. You argued that I thought MoS was town for reasons that weren't good enough. Do you consider your statement, quoted above, to be enough reason to clear MoS? Yet you've just done so, far more clearly than I ever did, and you must know you have, since you quoted your own statement.

You replaced Flare and one of your first actions was to accuse me of being scum, without having constructed a case against me. I go at things the opposite way, as the post you keep referring to shows. I look at the evidence, and present my findings, and sometimes I end up convincing myself of the opposite of what I thought I was going to find. I was voting MoS at the start of that post, and I thought I was going to confirm my own suspicions, in honesty. If I'd had a plan to "clear MoS" (which unvoting him and saying that there was evidence in his favour does not do, and you should know that), then why would I have bothered with including information that could be seen as detrimental to him? What is the advantage to scum in providing evidence on behalf of someone YOU, Setael, are arguing is town?

There's a limited amount of information that can be gained from a bandwagon or a lynch of town. Town's job is not to survive, it's to gain as much information as possible from WHATEVER results to them for the rest of the town to work with and derive conclusions from. At this point, I think town has derived a great deal of information from your wagon on me, and I really don't agree with this statement of yours at all:

Also, if you had no insider info (i.e. if you were a townie) I don't think you would say something like "town has enough information and content to win" because frankly, the town NEVER has enough info and content to win. It's all a guessing game since we have no prior knowledge of anyone's alignment but our own.

We have evidence. Your fatalistic attitude seems to indicate that you view Mafia as a guessing game, and your playstyle here is certainly bearing it out. Mafia is NOT a guessing game. It is a game of gauging reactions, of finding inconsistencies (like MoS decrying the Person C tell when he committed it himself, like you saying that I cleared MoS when you've done that more blatantly), and I think that we've derived a lot of information from this wagon. You don't seem worried about a mislynch, despite your comments, because you're not even curious enough to do a reread. Your actions betray your lack of worry.

I don't mind being lynched, if the town finds your argument compelling, because I know I'm town, and this wagon has derived a great deal of information for town. Your shaky arguments, your tunnelling, and your defenses of others without bothering to reread their play prove the opposite of your being "constantly worried there'll be a mislynch." You started with a premise and made a case that misunderstands (or deliberately twists) the facts, and cloak all of it in some meta argument about how I play differently in endgame than I do when no scum have been identified yet.

You're clearly not worried about a mislynch. You replaced into the game with an agenda, and you've pushed it to your own detriment and against reasonable logic. You've ignored the scummy actions of others and argued that these mistakes somehow clear them. And regardless of what town decides, you can't erase the evidence you've already provided. So no, I don't mind being lynched, because I do think town has enough information from your wagon on me to win without me. And I'm confident in that.

[Setael]

I think that you're quick to clear MoS, something that is the main heart of your case against me.

Hmm... I disagree. The fact that you unvoted MoS with such little reason could point to you 2 being scum together, and I haven't disregarded that possibility. I just don't think it's likely.

Do you consider your statement, quoted above, to be enough reason to clear MoS?

Nope. But I did notice that you didn't answer my question about it. The goal of that was to get your opinion on something you're avoiding answering for some reason. Instead, you just throw it back at me every time. Minus 1 townie point.

Yet you've just done so, far more clearly than I ever did, and you must know you have, since you quoted your own statement.

You keep saying I've cleared him, but it's still not true. I think it's more likely that he's town for several reasons, but it's also possible he's scum. I don't deny you've pointed out some interesting things about him. However, as I've said a lot of those things I think MoS would've been more careful about if he was scum. There's also the chance that you're distancing from him. So no, you shouldn't fool yourself into thinking that I've cleared him. I won't clear him until he's card flipped.

You replaced Flare and one of your first actions was to accuse me of being scum, without having constructed a case against me.

You should know something. I had the case. I knew what I thought you'd done that was scummy. What I didn't have time for was all these rebuttals that I knew would be necessary. I had no doubt that these last couple of pages was exactly what would happen, and I knew I needed the time to answer you. I'm not stupid. I knew what would likely happen if you were able to make these convincing "defenses" and then I wasn't able to answer for days. So I waited until I had a little more time. You still may have convinced the town and will get out of a lynch, but I did what I could to be available to answer the outpouring I knew would come.

I go at things the opposite way, as the post you keep referring to shows. I look at the evidence, and present my findings, and sometimes I end up convincing myself of the opposite of what I thought I was going to find. I was voting MoS at the start of that post, and I thought I was going to confirm my own suspicions, in honesty. If I'd had a plan to "clear MoS" (which unvoting him and saying that there was evidence in his favour does not do, and you should know that), then why would I have bothered with including information that could be seen as detrimental to him? What is the advantage to scum in providing evidence on behalf of someone YOU, Setael, are arguing is town?

Except you're smart enough to do things that seem on the surface to not give scum an advantage. If you think that I believe scum never does anything that looks like it wouldn't be to scum's advantage in order to look more town, you're not giving me much credit.

What's interesting about this is you're trying to change my case into me saying that you shouldn't have unvoted MoS. That's not accurate. I don't care that you unvoted MoS - a townie would do that. I don't care (much) that your reasons for unvoting MoS didn't seem good enough - a townie would do that too if they're being sloppy or strapped for time. What I think is scummy is that you cleared MoS, but then didn't clear Zorg when you had the same evidence against him. I don't think you were defending/buddying up to MoS, I think you were avoiding defending and/or distancing from Zorg/BM. So all this emphasis on MoS just looks like distraction.

We have evidence. Your fatalistic attitude seems to indicate that you view Mafia as a guessing game, and your playstyle here is certainly bearing it out. Mafia is NOT a guessing game. It is a game of gauging reactions, of finding inconsistencies (like MoS decrying the Person C tell when he committed it himself, like you saying that I cleared MoS when you've done that more blatantly), and I think that we've derived a lot of information from this wagon. You don't seem worried about a mislynch, despite your comments, because you're not even curious enough to do a reread. Your actions betray your lack of worry.

I wouldn't say that I see mafia as a guessing game, but I do recognize that both sides do their best and then see who believes who. I might not be able to convince the other townies to see what I'm seeing, but I can try. By expecting me to forget the points I brought up against you, this entire paragraph applies to you. You are using inconsistencies made by MoS and myself to distract from your own. It's so odd that you keep telling me to reread when I JUST read. I've probably read this game more recently than any player. Besides that, when do you think I'd be able to read? I'm spending every spare mafia minute responding to you.

You're right that I'm not worried, however, because in the end this is just a game. I guess I should've said "I don't like when there's a mislynch" rather than I'm worried about such. If you manage to wiggle out of this lynch and come up scum later at end game I will say "Well done, Bookitty. That was impressive." If you are lynched and come up town, rather than being pissed I would expect you to say "The Town did a good job" or maybe "I could've done better as scum". If you are lynched and come up town, I will feel really dumb and at endgame I'll say to you "Sorry Bookitty. I was wrong." And we'll laugh. Because it's a game. And I don't get "worried" about games. The best I can do is try to find scum and get them lynched. I might be wrong about my suspicions, but it's not going to keep me up at night. Sure, I'd like to win, and therefore I'd like to be right about your alignment. I'm more sure you're scum than anyone else, so for now I'm happy seeing you lynched today.

So no, I don't mind being lynched, because I do think town has enough information from your wagon on me to win without me. And I'm confident in that.

Yeah, you keep saying that. I'm confident you'll come up scum, so it doesn't mean much to me. However, even if you were right and I'm scum and you come up town so I get lynched, how does that win the game for the town? Are you saying my scum buddies have been outed? If so, by all means, who are they? MoS and BM? Really? It makes no sense to say that me being lynched as scum wins the game for the town when we've only managed to lynch one scum. There's a reason you're saying things that town wouldn't say. You're scum. If I'm wrong and the town follows all this propoganda of yours, we'll both get mislynched. But I don't think I'm wrong, so I'm not sweating it.

[Bookitty]

Bookitty, what are your thoughts on this statement:

"MoS would be more careful to have his own reasons for voting Bookitty if he were scum."

My thoughts have been expressed pretty clearly, but I'll make it crystalline clear for you. I think you're making a WIFOM argument on behalf of him. I don't know why you're doing that. I don't think that scum never makes mistakes, never does something obviously scummy. I don't think that whenever anyone does something so obvious (like in one finished game, a player claiming godfather, for instance) that it seems a mistake scum would never make, that it IS in fact a mistake scum would never make. I am not getting into the WIFOM argument you're embracing, hence my avoidance of the question, as you put it.

I would think that in a game where you've voted someone for making a Person C tell, and made a comment about how that's an accurate scumtell, you wouldn't DO that, but if you do, it's a scumtell. Dismissing it because it's too obvious is showing bias on your part. I pointed it out, and I think everyone is aware of it.

Contradictions in your recent posts:

Also, if you had no insider info (i.e. if you were a townie) I don't think you would say something like "town has enough information and content to win" because frankly, the town NEVER has enough info and content to win.

It's all a guessing game

since we have no prior knowledge of anyone's alignment but our own.

I wouldn't say that I see mafia as a guessing game

, but I do recognize that both sides do their best and then see who believes who.

Except you just did say that.

As a townie, I'm constantly worried there'll be a mislynch which casts suspicion on the wrong person, causing another mislynch.

You're right that I'm not worried, however, because in the end this is just a game. I guess I should've said "I don't like when there's a mislynch" rather than I'm worried about such.

So why put it that way in the first place? Why overstate your feelings about the game and put it on an emotional level?

You keep using emotional phrases like "propaganda" and you've basically abandoned your suspicions of Battle Mage, which seems rather odd to me. But more to the point, you're not even keeping your own story straight at this point. And I am sure I'm not the only one who can see it.

[Mastermind of Sin]

There is a distinct difference between someone who responds to your questions and addresses the points therein, and someone who does not. Would you not agree?

I did not feel there was much more to be gained by questioning you further. Additionally, I expressed why I felt you were not as suspicious as the other two (Battle Mage and Setael, now) and why my vote was going to Flare.

Can you quote the posts where you did this?

You, on the other hand, slipped onto the wagon on me and only gave your reasons when pressed, and only after repeated questioning. Additionally, your answers seem sort of counterintuitive. (Why aren't you voting for me? Sort of an odd question, really.)

Is it really an odd question? It's not like I said I agreed with your reasoning. I said that

based

on your reasoning, you should either have voted me or dropped suspicion against the others. I did not say that I felt you should be voting me. I obviously feel that no one should be voting me, since I am protown. However, that's not what the point of my post is, although you seem to be trying to twist what I said to imply that I was asking you to vote me.

Setael at least made a case, albeit one I don't agree with. You, on the other hand, just adopted the argument she made, and trying to get reasons from you for this is like pulling teeth. It's as if you're just slipping onto a wagon in order to try to get a lynch unnoticed. But I will point out your presence on that wagon, and your wholesale adopting of someone else's argument without ever really examining it for yourself, so the unnoticed part isn't going to work.

My responses have been part laziness, part time crunch. As you'll notice if you look in several of my other current games, I'm giving similar responses to people. Last week was finals, and this week I'm just trying to keep up with my games even if I don't always make big posts in them. Anyway, if I was going to just slip onto your wagon without attracting notice, I wouldn't be accusing people of being scum with you.

[Mastermind of Sin]

I believe that is a Zing.

Vote : Mastermind of Sin

You should know better, Skruffs. Please don't be lazy like me.

[Setael]

I think we're done here. There isn't much there to respond to, except that I will say that when I said "It's all a guessing game since we have no prior knowledge of anyone's alignment but our own" I was using a figure of speech. Sure, I know we have evidence to work with, and there's more to it than guessing, but what I meant is that often townies' assumptions are wrong since they're not based on fact or concrete knowledge. Hence, you're never really

sure

and you could always be on a mislynch wagon.

Also, you are wrong to say that I have abandoned my suspicions of Battle Mage. Quite the opposite.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Bookitty, does your latest suspicion of MoS mean you now disbelieve all of this? Does the fact that he thinks I made a decent case on you outweigh all these reasons you gave for thinking he's town?

I'm asking him questions. And, if you were really convinced I was scum, Setael, then why would you be making the assumption that I believe or disbelieve ANYTHING I'm saying? Your arguments in my direction all indicate that you think I'm town, and that I might "suspect" MoS of being scum, something SCUM would not do, or need to do.

So you're revealing that you don't even believe your own case, in presenting it.

WHOA. Stop the presses! Did you really just try and misrepresent what Setael is saying THAT badly? BooKitty, no protown person should ever act as if a person has NO chance of being town, unless (and not always even then) they have some sort of power role evidence that completely condemns them. If Setael believed there was no chance you were town, she would not even respond to what you say, because there's no point in taking you seriously. However, because there is always the possibility that you are town, we should continuing discussing points with you and treating it as a possibility. By keeping the lines of communication open, it gives you a chance to show that you are protown, and it allows us to do my evidence-gathering to see if we really think you are scum. Your statement above shows a base assumption that Setael should not believe there is even a

chance

of you being protown, and you're trying to twist that around to make it look like Setael "slipped up" and knows you're not scum.

Mastermind of Sin voted for Booboodafool for voting based on someone else's argument. It's called a Person C tell, and it's apparently the subject of some controversy, but Mastermind of Sin didn't seem to have any real ambivalence about it.

Also

Vote yamahako

. Zeppos post #562 was the exact same thing i was thinking.

Unvote, Vote: booboodafool

Person C arguments are among the most accurate, in my opinion. Good catch, The Fonz

Setael does make a convincing case against BooKitty, and considering that she was already near the top of my suspicion list, that's enough to make me

Unvote, Vote: BooKitty

. Setael looks a little better in light of this argument, if she's right.

So, it's among the most accurate, and in the same game, he commits it?

I'm just wondering, since you don't feel you need a reread, whether you were aware of this, Setael?

You do realize there is a very large time difference between those two posts, right? I have since then learned through experience that Person C tells are actually kinda crappy, since they happen all the time. I don't think I've ever actually used the Person C tell since my vote on Booboodafool, which happened, what, day 1?

What is the advantage to scum in providing evidence on behalf of someone YOU, Setael, are arguing is town?

Are you really trying to argue that there is no advantage in scum defending someone they know isn't mafia? Have you ever heard of buddying up? I'm somewhat ashamed to admit it, but through laziness on my part or just because of the way you presented it, I actually felt better about your alignment after you concluded I was town, since I knew that to be the correct conclusion. Even experienced players like myself are susceptible to scum buddying up to them, unfortunately.

We have evidence. Your fatalistic attitude seems to indicate that you view Mafia as a guessing game, and your playstyle here is certainly bearing it out. Mafia is NOT a guessing game. It is a game of gauging reactions, of finding inconsistencies (like MoS decrying the Person C tell when he committed it himself, like you saying that I cleared MoS when you've done that more blatantly), and I think that we've derived a lot of information from this wagon. You don't seem worried about a mislynch, despite your comments, because you're not even curious enough to do a reread. Your actions betray your lack of worry.

We have evidence? That doesn't mean we don't need more evidence. The day I'll say we have enough information as a town is the day that the mod announces guaranteed sane cop results on every player in the game, on Day 1.

You wanted me to present my own reasons for you to be scum? Well your wish just came true.

[Bookitty]

I did not feel there was much more to be gained by questioning you further. Additionally, I expressed why I felt you were not as suspicious as the other two (Battle Mage and Setael, now) and why my vote was going to Flare.

Can you quote the posts where you did this?

The posts where we argued back and forth are too numerous to quote. I doubt you've forgotten them. The post where I changed my mind about you being my main suspect is quoted below:

Some interactions between ToasterStrudel and others:

She votes MoS. This could be distancing, but Flare and Zorg jump on this wagon pretty quickly. When Erg0 expresses some discomfort with the wagon, TS states "It's never a bad long-term strategy, especially in a big game, to keep some heat on MoS. If he's scum, you hope that he might slip up. I don't know if that's what Flare and Zorg have in mind, but I sure wouldn't like MoS to get complacent."

This just doesn't seem like scum distancing to me.

unvote

Then, when Ether notes that "You voted MoS with the implications that Flare was town", TS disavows this, stating, "Independently of my observations on MoS, Flare's contributions seem to lean on the side of disruption, rather than contribution, so I would definitely add him to the scummy column."

This DOES look like scum distancing to me.

TS decides to go along with JDodge's suspicions of White (townie), saying "Upon further consideration, I am going to trust JDodge, and my own guts, on this one." I don't see scum saying this about other scum, it's too clear a linkage.

When White attacks Yamahoko for some valid reasons, TS defends Yama, saying "Loaded question noted. Here's another: 'Yama, when did you stop beating puppies?'"

Again, possibly too clear a linkage for scum to make to other scum.

Some weird interplay in which TS doesn't really defend Ether, nor attack her, but just uses her in some confusing example of buddying up to lurkers. (White really wasn't helping himself here, and I have no idea what TS means about Ether in these posts.)

WIFOM: TS accuses White of buddying up with MoS... trying to get back to her original lynch target of MoS, or trying to clear MoS when White comes up town? I'm leaning toward the first, based on tone.

Does some fishing and comes up with the idea that White is a mason, due to Simenon's opposition to his lynch. Loudly hints at her discovery.

Chummily points out to MoS that "I really, really don't see what's so special about Zorg. Whatever scent of scum he gives off, I must be immune to it. I read all the posts, and I just don't get it." Too clear a defense for scum to make of other scum, once again, as I see it.

Really liking my unvote on MoS at the moment. TS seems fixated on him, not something I see scum doing to other scum.

MoS, ZONEACE, Flameaxe, JDodge vote for TS and force a claim. A wagon forms on Zorg nearly instantly. TS votes White, despite the Zorg wagon.

I'm thinking at least one of Zorg (Battle Mage) and Flare is scum. I'm not really sure which, but Toaster Strudel's early comment painting Flare as scum, while never pursuing him in any meaningful manner, seems like a better case for his lynch than Zorg's. TS linked herself rather openly to Zorg, not a move I think smart scum would make.

And rereading Flare's posts, which are alternating attacks and withdrawals of those attacks (at least in my view), I don't see anything to make me reconsider this idea.

Is it really an odd question? It's not like I said I agreed with your reasoning. I said that

based

on your reasoning, you should either have voted me or dropped suspicion against the others. I did not say that I felt you should be voting me. I obviously feel that no one should be voting me, since I am protown. However, that's not what the point of my post is, although you seem to be trying to twist what I said to imply that I was asking you to vote me.

You weren't agreeing with me. You were agreeing with Setael's argument, the direct implication of which was that I should have found you more suspicious than Flare and maintained my vote on you at that time. That was the logical conclusion, and your response seemed very odd in that context. It seemed that you hadn't understood that this was the end result of following her logic.

My responses have been part laziness, part time crunch. As you'll notice if you look in several of my other current games, I'm giving similar responses to people. Last week was finals, and this week I'm just trying to keep up with my games even if I don't always make big posts in them. Anyway, if I was going to just slip onto your wagon without attracting notice, I wouldn't be accusing people of being scum with you.

My vote remains on Setael. Her recent posts have contained numerous contradictions, and she seems determined to defend you, which seems more than a little odd. She's tunnelling solely on me, and she's tripping herself up more and more with every post she makes, in my view.

Also, you are wrong to say that I have abandoned my suspicions of Battle Mage. Quite the opposite.

Recent posts don't seem to bear this out to any great extent.

[Bookitty]

WHOA. Stop the presses! Did you really just try and misrepresent what Setael is saying THAT badly? BooKitty, no protown person should ever act as if a person has NO chance of being town, unless (and not always even then) they have some sort of power role evidence that completely condemns them. If Setael believed there was no chance you were town, she would not even respond to what you say, because there's no point in taking you seriously. However, because there is always the possibility that you are town, we should continuing discussing points with you and treating it as a possibility. By keeping the lines of communication open, it gives you a chance to show that you are protown, and it allows us to do my evidence-gathering to see if we really think you are scum. Your statement above shows a base assumption that Setael should not believe there is even a

chance

of you being protown, and you're trying to twist that around to make it look like Setael "slipped up" and knows you're not scum.

Setael has tunnelled on me in recent posts to the extent that some of her posts read as if she's just repeating, over and over, that I'm scum. She hasn't seemed unsure. Do you argue that she has?

You do realize there is a very large time difference between those two posts, right? I have since then learned through experience that Person C tells are actually kinda crappy, since they happen all the time. I don't think I've ever actually used the Person C tell since my vote on Booboodafool, which happened, what, day 1?

I asked Setael for a reread. She felt she had no need for one, despite the fact that a reread would have revealed this contradiction in your play. As I said, I tend to watch who jumps on wagons I am on as town, and how they do it, because that's one way to catch scum. Setael doesn't seem interested in that at all. This also adds to the perception of certainty that she is presenting.

Are you really trying to argue that there is no advantage in scum defending someone they know isn't mafia? Have you ever heard of buddying up? I'm somewhat ashamed to admit it, but through laziness on my part or just because of the way you presented it, I actually felt better about your alignment after you concluded I was town, since I knew that to be the correct conclusion. Even experienced players like myself are susceptible to scum buddying up to them, unfortunately.

Do you think it's likely that someone would argue as fiercely and persistently as you and I did, and then expect "buddying up" to work? That seems pretty counterintuitive to me.

We have evidence? That doesn't mean we don't need more evidence. The day I'll say we have enough information as a town is the day that the mod announces guaranteed sane cop results on every player in the game, on Day 1.

I think we've derived as much evidence as can be gained from my wagon, and if you read the statements in context, you'll understand that I was saying that I felt that regardless of whether Setael manages to get me lynched or not, the evidence is there. She's now decided that the discussion is done, so apparently she believes either she'll only damage her case more by making further contradictions, or that town has enough information to make a decision on this wagon now.

I don't fear being lynched, because I think that town knowing my alignment might actually be more helpful in the long run in reexamining these arguments. But I feel I've done my best to derive information before that happened.