BSG wrote:And it would be nice if Korts could explain why he thinks it's bad to lynch one of Freeko or Prom King.
Just to add on to what korts said, in my only other game with masons, the masons had to claim on D1. Both of them were acting scummy, and a few people, myself included still wanted to lynch them after the claim. After discussion, this is what came out of it:
(PS: skip the quotes and read below for a summary)
Mini 688
G-Force - vanilla wrote:I'm inclined to believe the mason claim at the moment, only because I doubt scum would claim confirmed mason with their scum buddy this early. If its ever found that either one of them is scum via cop investigation, death scenes or whatnot, they're screwed.
Xtorm (one of the Mason pair) wrote:Cop shouldn't be investigating us in the first place.
G-force wrote:Well, I was speaking hypothetically, but yes, investigating you or RBT would likely be a waste.
bionicchop2 - doc wrote: Xtoxm and Rice probably both know I am not a fan of how they have played this game, but meh. Nothing can be done about that. If we believe their claim (I do. The risk vs. reward is very poor for scum to pull this gambit as has been mentioned) it does allow us to not be distracted by their play styles (no offense meant Xtoxm, since I actually like playing in games with you despite not really liking how you play).
mrfixij - cop wrote:Rhetorical question. Given that masons are mafia without a nightkill (and win with town), you can see just how convenient a mason claim is for scum. At the moment, I think it clears, but masons being outed always gives me a funny feeling.
Xtorm wrote:Mason is one of the worst claims for mafia to make, and it's nothing like being mafia.
bionicchop2 wrote:Especially on d1, masons is a horrible scum claim and the risk vs. reward just doesn't balance out. If either player turns up scum during the game, the other is an auto-lynch. Only the best players could argue their way out of a mason claim when their 'partner' turns up scum. Now if this was close to endgame, mafia might pull a gambit if the numbers worked out where they felt they could gain enough trust to push enough mislynches for the win.
Rhinox - SK wrote:Off topic theory regarding the mason claim: I agree its a bad claim to make as scum on D1, but I'm wondering is it suicidal? meaning, are there situations where it can work? Yes, if one of them dies and is scum, the other is an auto lynch, but how would 1 of them die if they're scum? Assuming the town believes them, then an SK or vig would have to hit one. An sk might hit 1 to try to get the town to lynch the other if they're both scum. I've heard an sk's first priority is to eliminate the mafia, just like town. A vig might hit 1 to prove the claim and either give us a good lynch the next day, or a confirmed townie for at least a day. A cop could get a 2 for 1 investigation by investigating 1 of them.
Assuming none of those scenarios happen, I suppose the 2 claimed masons lasting until LyLo (when there is suspected to be more than 1 scum remaining) might raise suspisions, but even that wouldn't prove they're scum. Now consider that both RBT and Xtorm were directly in the town's crosshairs... is it worth playing the mason gambit if you think you can't argue your way out of the lynch otherwise? Either it was planned at night to claim mason if needed, or Xtorm dragged RBT into it by claiming, forcing RBT to play along. Knowing little about mason involvement on the site, my first reaction is to think that saying its a horrible scum move to claim mason D1 is WIFOM if there is a chance or examples of scum being able to pull it off. If its never been done/can't be done, then I'll concede the point and label RBT and X as "most likely town"
bionicchop2 wrote:As for the masons - no it definitely is not suicide. One thing I do know about xtoxm though is he does not gambit much and he is not an exceptionally skilled liar by his own admission outside games. I haven't seen a fake claim from Xtoxm yet (outside of claiming vanilla as scum) and I don't think RBT plays that way either. This isn't to say I don't expect them to ever make a fake claim as mafia, but I find it unlikely mason would be the first choice. So, for me, that is definitely giving an early game pass through d1 and possibly d2. Closer to end game I could consider them being scum if both happen to still be alive.
G-Force wrote:The problem with that is that is that its very likely that at least one of those scenarios will happen throughout the game, especially the SK kill. Claimed masons are either real masons or lying scum. SK's need to kill masons quickly since confirmed innocent's are extremely dangerous to SKs late-game, and if they don't have NK immunity, the mafia are high on their list of targets as well. Therefore, even the possibility of an SK makes claiming mason with a scum buddy extremely risky. Scum can't afford to risk two members (likely 2/3 of their team) on those odds.
volkan - mafia RB wrote:Xtoxm says cop shouldn't be investigating the masons. This I do not like. Think about it: Xtoxm has said they were confirmed town to each other. Thus, they are either both town, or both scum. That means that a cop investigation would be able to clear or criminalise both of them. That's by no means a bad investigation (I am not saying a cop should necessarily investigate them; I am simply saying that there are good reasons for such an investigation)
Xtorm wrote:This makes me very happy with a Volkan lynch today.
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tl;dr version:
"Ugh. Mason claim from my two top mislynches. I'll see if I can salvage a cop investigation on them, though."
Volkan wrote:X, you are completely twisting my words. I didn't positively say or imply that a cop SHOULD investigate you. I simply disputed your argument that a cop should NOT do so. My position is simply this: it would not be inherently unreasonable for a cop to investigate the masons, contrary to your blunt and unsubstantiated assertion that "Cop shouldn't be investigating us in the first place. "
I've posted all the quotes so players could come to their own conclusion, instead of having to just rely on what I say. Basically, it is my belief, based on this game, that scum claiming mason on D1 is unlikely due to the fact that it is very likely 1 of them will be killed at some point, revealing their true roles. Therefore a cop should not waste an investigation on the claimed masons due to both the unlikliness that scum would try this gambit D1, and the inevitability that one or both of them will be killed before LyLo anyways, revealing who they are. In the event that a cop is still considering investigating them anyways, note that only an innocent on PK will clear both of them in our game, but a guilty on PK does not mean they are both guily. A guilty on Freeko means they are both guilty, but an innocent on Freeko doesn't clear PK. However, it is my belief that a cop should not investigate either of them, especially freeko.
This game is slightly different in that both can't confirm each others innocence. Given what i said above, I find it unlikely that both are scum. I think Freeko is innocent, given that he is the confirmed one of the pair, but we must still be suspicious of PK because he is not confirmed. PK may be gambitting that by claiming to save freeko from lynching, he will be viewed as town, especially in the event that freeko is later nked and proven town. That doesn't mean we should immediately lynch PK - rather, throughout the rest of the game, we can't simply consider him to be confirmed town, even if freeko dies and is a town mason.
