Open 500 - Popcorn Mafia: Game Over!

[Wisdom]

lol

[Oil Tycoons]

yeah I am not wanting to bus borky

I am going to have to work with nacho on this 1 day and I may have to bus 1 of you guys. I am going to mindfuck him until he cries and he is going to love it.

<3

[pirate mollie]

I agree that he could have done it better, but I don't agree that bussing was not a good tactic.

did it work? NO! so how can you defend that it was a good tactic?

Scum cannot win if they don't become obvtown in this setup. And I don't think that anyone would pick up that DJ is listing ALL of his scumreads for that purpose. Some of them maybe, but not all. You say that KX picked it up, but he was less sure when I told him that I don't find it likely.

yes. I wonder how much talent you have for scum cos you are very good at talking people out of their better judgment.

You say that Nacho does, but he didn't shoot you after he shot DJ, did he?

nope and that was based on my play. but we lost members of our team do to dj's "bussing" that keep inisiting was a good idea!

So no. I think that you're being unfair here. They discussed it in the QT and agreed that bussing is good. I didn't see you seeing anything about it (probably you werent around) but they did discuss it.

I wasn't around.

and no I am not being unfair cos if arc and borky were okay with being bussed it was very clear that I wasn't so he should have left us out of it.

In any case, abandoning the game the way you did and going "I dont care about this game, good luck" is bad, no matter what a scumbuddy did.

hey wisdom are we playing mafia here and did you get a scum role pm cos that is one helluva misrep.

I said I had lost motivation and I had, so I was going to do what I could to have fun cos guess what that is what you are supposed to have in games. it is not fun when you ask someone not to do something and they do it anyways without your permission. NO MEANS NO DAMMIT. and I didn't "abandon" the game so like, throw that accusation out the window cos it never happened. I simply wasn't going to strain myself when my teammate put me ignored what I said and put me in a difficult position.

I also have this problem when I am scum, I think that town will realize everything and that I am doomed, but most of the times I am wrong. You're more experienced and you should know that; no matter how obvious something is, town is not guaranteed to pick it up. Keep going and don't do that to your team.

yeah......that isn't the problem here. I don't feel that way. when I am scum and I am really on my game, I am pretty confident that town has no clue what I am doing so...no. that isn't what is going on here. you need to step back and look at it from a different POV IMO.

anyways I asked nacho earlier to come back in here and explain what he saw and how he was able to do what he did and he might even explain why I saw it all coming.

[pirate mollie]

mollie i am crying in happiness right now

lol, <3

[Ms Marangal]

from our skype chat log:

mara what are you doing? "yes, I convinced her today"
[6/9/13 10:22:35 AM] R. Forbes_Robinson: wisdom won't by it
[6/9/13 10:23:01 AM] R. Forbes_Robinson: and I definitely don't I would be town reading him if I were town.
[6/9/13 10:23:08 AM] R. Forbes_Robinson: dammit...
[6/9/13 10:31:57 AM] R. Forbes_Robinson: jesus mara you are as bad as don
[6/9/13 10:38:15 AM] R. Forbes_Robinson: "Basically this doesn't change the opinion of someone like mollie"
[6/9/13 10:38:20 AM] R. Forbes_Robinson: told you so

I didn't get this >.>

and it was basically fight/flight response near midnight... I was freaking out and I stopped thinking

I'm sooo surprised that we made it this far though, most of the kills kept being made when I went to bed. Waking up in the top four ended up giving me a huge adrenaline rush, it was insane.

I did, for the most part try to keep myself restrained from doing stupid shit though I find that near impossible at end-game. I know mollie didn't want to bus so I didn't do it, though I don't really find anything wrong with it. I feel like the way DJ went with it though was a little to obvious

[don_johnson]

my list actually had a sound basis. all I did was list the least active players minus Jacob, and call for a policy shot at the hydra. oil shot AA and bork before he shot me. so I don't know, oil will have to answer that question himself as to whether or not my bussing was "obvious". I was hoping his first shot would miss. ii don't think his shooting arc had anything to do with me. but I don't know. i'm pretty good at playing scum. I think town just hit on all the right cylinders in a heavily town sided set-up.

[Wisdom]

I don't think the AA or bork shots had anything to do with dj's list.

[Regfan]

I followed along with this game with someone else (Don't know if they want to be named) and reading a large portion of this game was painful, the Oil Tycoons circle-jerking in the thread was a real big turn of. I actually thought Don played the best out of the entire scum-team (We both he was town) but had the rest of the scum-team. Wasn't sure how the three-headed hydra wasn't shot early on and managed to last until day 8 personally because I thought they were bleeding scuminess but this setups really unfair to scum (Been scum in it in the past) there's not much for scum to do other than pray that town fuck up which is demotivating to do.

[pirate mollie]

I followed along with this game with someone else (Don't know if they want to be named) and reading a large portion of this game was painful, the Oil Tycoons circle-jerking in the thread was a real big turn of. I actually thought Don played the best out of the entire scum-team (We both he was town) but had the rest of the scum-team. Wasn't sure how the three-headed hydra wasn't shot early on and managed to last until day 8 personally because I thought they were bleeding scuminess but this setups really unfair to scum (Been scum in it in the past) there's not much for scum to do other than pray that town fuck up which is demotivating to do.

was it don who you were following and who's alignment you knew of? lol

there was a distinct lack of natural flow to the progression of his reads on arc and us. actually, he had no progression

at all

on us and there was actually a good bit of meat to go on with it. he never bit into it or really got his hands dirty with it.

his and borky's exchanges smelled like scum theatre. that was the player in his list he felt most comfortable in interacting with and that compared to his other interactions with his scum team stood out. it was a case of shake one and the whole entire team falls out. when it happens it is unmistakeable and it is just a matter of following the trail. it would have been better to stagger his foses on his teammates so that it looked like he was coming to his conclusions in a way that followed a natural course. clustering the entire scum team in one focused list for the reasons he gave looked forced within the arc of the gameflow. the timing was off. <---- to rhythm players this type of stuff stands out.

not sure what about oil bugged you.

I think bussing is overrated. sure I will bus if I have to, that was my big worry was that oil would maneuver us into a situ where we had to bus. but let it be in a way that does not implicate your whole team.

mebbe oil will share why he chose the shots in the way that he did. he is a lover not a fighter, so don't be surprised if he stays away from this argument. but I bet he had good reasons for doing what he did and I find it weird that you negging on 2 players who were active, focused and nailed scum in their first 3 shots.

@ don - is policy lynching for dumb reasons normal for you? cos policy lynching a hydra just because they were a hydra is pretty dumb. and isn't

at all

in the same vein of how you normally play cos usually you make sense. <-----you weren't making sense. and usually you make fantastic sense. that is why it stood out. <---- that is a meta read. it isn't about pattern matching it is about being able to follow/predict a person's natural thought flow. when you are town you are

town

. you have the ability to send out a clear signal that says TOWN. you don't send out that signal when you decide to pl a hydra just cos they are a hydra when you have never given any indication of having a problem with them before or lynching lurkers when you have never had a problem with them before. <---- these are so contrary to the fundamental approach you take to the game which is to find and catch scum. you try to work things out not go with lazy scummy excuses to lynch people. anyone who has played with you before knows you are a good player and can see that. that isn't what you did in this game.

also I am not sure if I should be apologising for how blunt I am being or not. it probably has to do with the way that I was taught mafia. the feedback I always received was always very blunt and I never learned anything by having someone sugarcoat it for me.

[Regfan]

I don’t think Don had a choice re; Arc, there was no way he could come up with an excuse to list her as town therefore she had to remain in his “Good shots list” and that’s on her, not him. Similarly there wasn’t much reason he could manufacture to constantly keep Bork of the list and while you might say their interactions shook the whole scum-team I don’t think there was much else he could have done there, the setup just makes it very hard for scum to communicate with anyone or do anything really. As for his read on you having no “progression” the way I read it was that he locked himself in early on a stance that hydras make more optimal shots and then didn’t have much of a choice but to keep you on the ‘good shot’ list because of it, plus to be perfectly honest I thought you were incredibly obvious scum and had someone experienced as Don is town-read you I’d have grilled them a lot about the read and would have caught a link from it anyway. So while bussing is “sub-optimal” I think Don played well for the position he was in.

And I have no issue with Oil’s ‘nailing scum in the first three shots’ merely an issue with their circle-jerking posts, made for cringeworthy reading.

[Wisdom]

What made you think Kerberos was obvious scum? I don't really think so.

[Regfan]

What made you think Kerberos was obvious scum? I don't really think so.

Massive amounts of fluff and filler posting, very little genuine attempts at scumhunting and getting reads and when the reads are stated they're not really 'forced' in a way that I think the three of them would do as town in a setup like this, Post 63 being an attempt to down-play scumminess (Hydra dissonance isn't a scum-tell but that doesn't make one particular players inside a hydras posts less suspicious), Post 105 being very contrived and the "Scum might have framed Mollie by selecting you as gun bearer" in Post 269 being something that wouldn't go through their head as town plus Mollies reaction in Post 299 being very over-the-top, same with Post 319. Seems like they were playing a specific game to just buddy up to Nacho in a way that he misreads them though but in a setup like this when someone else gets the gun after Nacho they weren't likely to last all the way (That said no one is in a setup like this, insanely town-sided).

[pirate mollie]

I don’t think Don had a choice

re; Arc, there was no way he could come up with an excuse to list her as town therefore she had to remain in his “Good shots list” and that’s on her, not him. Similarly there wasn’t much reason he could manufacture to constantly keep Bork of the list and while you might say their interactions shook the whole scum-team I don’t think there was much else he could have done there, the setup just makes it very hard for scum to communicate with anyone or do anything really. As for his read on you having no “progression” the way I read it was that he locked himself in early on a stance that hydras make more optimal shots and then didn’t have much of a choice but to keep you on the ‘good shot’ list because of it, plus to be perfectly honest I thought you were incredibly obvious scum and had someone experienced as Don is town-read you I’d have grilled them a lot about the read and would have caught a link from it anyway. So while bussing is “sub-optimal” I think Don played well for the position he was in.

And I have no issue with Oil’s ‘nailing scum in the first three shots’ merely an issue with their circle-jerking posts, made for cringeworthy reading.

what is funny and beautifully ironic about this post is how much it comes from an informed minority POV.

don had every choice, he is the one who put himself in the position he was in by going counter to his natural approach to the game by going after a pl and lurkers. he ignored the majority of the activity in the game to focus on those; and I say don is not at a skill level with his town game where he could tune town noise out like that in such a sharp-focused way and turn up 3 scum so early in the game. the biggest mistake that scum make is when they try to overplay their hand and don was doing that and it was obvious. he was banking on himself prolly cos he saw himself as the strongest scum player. <----I say you are more likely to catch scum in the early stages through slips like this.

I read your case on us and some of it comes down to playstyle differences. do I really have to go through the points in your last post and point out why some of those are not actual scumtells? it comes down to where the motivation of posts are coming from and this is where meta is actually helpful; being familiar with a player enough to be able to tell if they are reasoning things out in a way that is consistent with their overall game approach. but if you don't have meta then you have to rely on objective tells but you cannot rely on those solely alone. I don't know about you but when I am town I

hate

to lynch town and I don't buy that beep boop ann rand argument "oh they are bad town and will just hurt the game with x, y and z and should be lynched for those reasons". don't get me wrong, sometimes you HAVE to do it, but it should not be a lazy default that is supported by site meta and there is a townish place where one comes to that conclusion organically.

[Regfan]

Look I'll be blunt; I wasn't in the game and was entirely objective when reading it and was very very confident that you were scum from it (And wasn't the only one..) to the extent where I told the mod that I'd be shocked if you weren't shot D1 or D2 (With no 'extra knowledge') so you can claim that the scum-tells I had on you were not "looking at the motivation and meta behind it!!" but things like filler, fluff posting are scum-tells for everyone, sure some people have a tendency to post more useless posts than others but that doesn't change the fact that nothing you guys did looked like a genuine attempt to read people and progress the game forward. Not to mention "Scum framed us" is not a natural reaction in the slightest. So you can try and tell Don that he "fucked you" and was a "bad player" all you want but the truth is I don't think he did at all, you lost because no one in the scum-team played a strong game in a setup that's inherently very town sided.

[ArcAngel9]

And Great Moderation HD,

[don_johnson]

mollie, I wasn't trying to be last man standing. I was just trying to get at least one of us into the final mix. preferably you. I am a "thin the herd" kind of player, so i'm not sure which of my games you have read, but I don't turn on the super townie engines until its necessary. my day 1's are usually me encouraging people to do things and simply trying to reduce numbers to a manageable cache. sorry if it bothered you. I found this set-up difficult.

regfan: thanks for the third party view. I kind of like the idea behind this set-up but it seems just too hard for scum. wouldn't mind being in on a discussion of how to tweak this set-up.

[Oil Tycoons]

the Oil Tycoons circle-jerking in the thread was a real big turn of.

I can see how this would be the case, but I also sort of figured that it wouldn't be that way for the people playing in this particular game. Bert specifically is who I was appealing to with my loose cannon, old man aggression style of play. I knew TiP would latch onto it, I knew notscience would latch onto it, and those are two players whose styles usually get them in a lot of trouble. I also knew it would be a hard style for scum to play against (hypothetical Wisdom-scum, dj scum) because they weren't used to it. Wisdom responded to my trolling/circle jerking with a shitton of confusion but still plugging on doing his own thing, which was EXTREMELY town to Syryana and I while dj just postured, talked about his culling the herd shots, didn't try to cull the herd or even address the townier block of TiP/NS/Bert who were doing some things that might've been seen as anti-town as fuck which optimization players like him try to pick up on. I was screaming Kerberos was town, and dj told me to shot them for a "policy", which showed he wasn't trying to reach out to me at all which every other townie had managed to do with the sole exception of Jacob the lurkfuck. So it's a style I wouldn't throw around if there were any players like you, Tierce, Tammy: it would end up muddying the waters too much. But this is a group that is generally relaxed and jokey as town with a few people who can easily put up with my bullshit even if they don't understand what I'm doing so much, so it was a good place for that to happen.

I don’t think Don had a choice re; Arc, there was no way he could come up with an excuse to list her as town therefore she had to remain in his “Good shots list” and that’s on her, not him. Similarly there wasn’t much reason he could manufacture to constantly keep Bork of the list and while you might say their interactions shook the whole scum-team I don’t think there was much else he could have done there, the setup just makes it very hard for scum to communicate with anyone or do anything really.

When you don't have a choice as scum, you lose the game. It's as simple as that. He could've bussed in a way that made more sense, he could've defended his partners. I believe that the knowledge you have as scum gives you a certain amount of control; and it's up to you to use this control to give yourself options.

but tl;dr I am a lover not a fighter and this argument is not fun for me
i like talking about mafia though so if you want to see more into my thought process you can talk to me in chat or something! i'd be interested in hearing why you thought dj was town and I could maybe explain why I found mollie town if you'd like.

[borkjerfkin]

I am not even going to remotely attempt to defend my play this game, which was basically me unable to get over the hump of getting into the game when I didn't roll town. I feel like replacing out would have been a worse decision and tried to stick with it but it just wasn't happening.

I think it was pretty obvious that all 4 of us scum were pretty demotivated, but I was probably the worst compared to my normal play and it showed.

[borkjerfkin]

mollie if I ever hear the words "scum theater" out of your mouth this game as you're wont to say I will be upset

his and borky's exchanges smelled like scum theatre.

[pirate mollie]

Look I'll be blunt; I wasn't in the game and was entirely objective when reading it and was very very confident that you were scum from it (And wasn't the only one..) to the extent where I told the mod that I'd be shocked if you weren't shot D1 or D2 (With no 'extra knowledge') so you can claim that the scum-tells I had on you were not "looking at the motivation and meta behind it!!" but things like filler, fluff posting are scum-tells for everyone, sure some people have a tendency to post more useless posts than others but that doesn't change the fact that nothing you guys did looked like a genuine attempt to read people and progress the game forward. Not to mention "Scum framed us" is not a natural reaction in the slightest. So you can try and tell Don that he "fucked you" and was a "bad player" all you want but the truth is I don't think he did at all, you lost because no one in the scum-team played a strong game in a setup that's inherently very town sided.

and I will blunt again: I feel like I am arguing with a child about the existence of santa claus.

here is the evidence: don tried to bus hie entire team. don dropped a shitload of massive scumtells that are fundamentally much reliable scumtells than "fluff-posting". <----these are kind of irrefutable facts as in the evidence is right here in this thread. so pushing a counter point that is cobbled together based on irrational thought processes and justification is pretty unreasonable and tells me that you were not being objective at all.

my contention with don is that I asked him, I eve said plz, to

not

bus unless you have to. he tried to hard bus right off the bat. so my mebbe in your world, "good play is doing what your scummate asks you not to do" and is optimal, I live in the real one where no it isn't.

also, and this is very important, I did

not

say that don was a bad player. I said he was he was a strong player. I am treating him like a strong player by giving him feedback that I hope that he will consider. if he walks away with nothing else I hope that in the future if says "hey plz don't do that" he will actually consider

not doing it

.

@ don ftr I know that you were not being malicious and I am sure you had the best of intentions. I don't hold anything against you for it.

@ nacho I wish you would get pissed off just once

@ borky lol, I didn't say it til after the game!

@ don if you want feedback as to why it was so counter to your meta and we can move to pms or chat. it is up to you.

[Regfan]

here is the evidence: don tried to bus hie entire team. don dropped a shitload of massive scumtells that are fundamentally much reliable scumtells than "fluff-posting". <----these are kind of irrefutable facts as in the evidence is right here in this thread. so pushing a counter point that is cobbled together based on irrational thought processes and justification is pretty unreasonable

and tells me that you were not being objective at all.

Look I'm merely telling you that I believe that Dons play wasn't as bad as you're making out to be and that I think there's some issues with your scum play that you can work on, you can either listen to me or not but attempting to accuse me of being "not objective" really is stupid considering I read along with the game real-time, didn't have any extra information and essentially played it via PMing the mod my reads and thoughts and that was that you were scum and had read Don as town. And given that I've never played with you before and don't think I've played with Don either my scumhunting would be completely objectively done.

Anyway I'm not going to go back and forth with you anymore, this'll be my last post here because it seems like instead of listening to me you're just attempting to call me bad (And while there are some things I'm bad at like being scum.. scumhunting is something I'm decentish at) or calling me a liar which is just...

[Ms Marangal]

Didn't you use similar reasons to call me out as scum in Tierce's game Reg?

and I'm not going to lie, I feel like a fucked up alot this game and I think that mollie actually was the one to keep that town-appearance alive for so long. The bussing looked a bit obvious to me, especially after all the flips happened. I'm surprised we made it as far as we did, and I remember waking up and freaking out at the thought of Wisdom being the gun-bearer and there only being 4 unconfirmed left in the game.

also, Wisdom. I kinda needed that... I'm mainly a reactionary player and I think the biggest hole in my play is the difference of reaction I give as scum vs town and I have been working to try and unify the differences between them enough so that my alignment can't be figured out based on how I react.

I think that one of the best things about playing scum is the element of control that scum have and knowledge of who's what means nothing. The set-up took away a good amount of scum-control of the game, which is what makes it so town-sided I think.


The circle-jerking freaked me out alot. I kept on talking about it in our chatlog and how the two of you were trying to draw out scum Via-reactions

[LlamaFluff]

ending