268: Bugsy Malone Mafia - Game over. Mod learns lesson

[Pariah]

Oh, and Foolster: I'm a guy.

[Alexander]

I definately don't like this comment, as others have said by Alex: "

I figured that if the most experienced player in the game fingered those 3, at least one will turn up scum

." Human beings make errors, and it's perfectly natural to accuse someone to get a reaction or simply be wrong about someone. "Striking gold" doesn't always happen, and you don't even know for sure if everyone on that list is really a citizen/unscummy. It's just your

opinion

that they are unscummy.

I should have worded it better, so here goes:

"I figured that if the most experienced player in the game fingered those 3, at least one will turn up

scummy in a way I will be able to notice and gauge

".

I am not voting MeMe because she pointed fingers at those 3, and not because she failed to bring forth the scum that we so crave for. For what I know, they could well be scum. Maybe she DID struck gold... But I am voting her because, upon further reread, I consider her voting reasons

invalid in all 3 cases

. If there is something scummy in the behavior of those 3, I was not able to notice it. And yes, this is just my opinion, but unfortunately that's all I have.

[Foolster41]

Err, Sorry about that. I don't generaly look at the gender marker as much as I should.

I don't know what there really is to go over.

I'm not really sure I like alex's "PBPA". Asuming Meme's clear, you look at the three she attacks, but since they don't seem very scummy otherwise (but how could you know if they are or arn't), you suspect MeMe? This seems like just a bunch of useless guessing. I'd like to hear what you have to say about this, alex.

[Alexander]

Assuming Meme's clear, you look at the three she attacks, but since they don't seem very scummy otherwise (but how could you know if they are or arn't), you suspect MeMe? This seems like just a bunch of useless guessing. I'd like to hear what you have to say about this, alex.

a. I never assumed MeMe's clear. But, with her being the most experienced player, I figured that the people she voted for would be a good place to start looking for scum. That's why I looked at them first. Not because she is clear, not because she is the oracle, because it was a good place to start.

b. I don't KNOW if they are scummy or not. I said that before. I do not appreciate you repeating the "how can you know" argument.

c. I do know that in all 3 cases, the reasons she brought for voting for them are (in my opinion) invalid.

Hence, again, in my opinion, the best place to plant my vote right now is on MeMe. And that's where my vote is. Right now my vote is taking a nap, resting from all the hard work he did. He's probably not going anywhere soon... unless someone more scummy comes up.

[broomhead]

i'd like to point out in the whole

I figured that if the most experienced player in the game fingered those 3, at least one will turn up scum.

the assumption is that MeMe is a townie and she is looking for scum. no one ever brought up that she could be scum and she's just pointing out random people. maybe thats why none of her reasons are very good, because the people she'd pointing out people that are inncocent.

[MeMe]

I'd like a show of hands:

Who thinks none of my reasons for my votes were very good?

[Fritzler]

*does

NOT

raise hand*

[Alexander]

Upon further re-read (and this has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the raging MeMe debate), I will

FOS broomhead

and

FOS chaotic diablo

, because of their interactions on pages 2-3. At the top of page 2, broomhead said something strange, quickly accumulated 2 votes and 1 FOS. Then, comes chaotic diablo, and, with no regard to the ongoing discussion ... votes for himself? It

almost

seems like c.d. saw a fellow mafia member (who also happens to be an inexperienced player) in trouble, and quickly came in to shift the focus away from him. Then, when people asked c.d. for clarification, broomhead actually responded for him in posts 51/53.

Again, this has nothing to do with MeMe, just another direction I'm probing into. MeMe's idea of showing hands is sound, I'd like to see more participants. My hand is up of course.

[Alexander]

*does

NOT

raise hand*

You avatar betrays your true thoughts, Fritzler. Take a good hard look at your avatar's hand....

[Fritzler]

That's a black power sign. Not me raising my hand.

[Adele]

*raises hand*

; I guess y'all know that.

[broomhead]

*raises elbow*
I'm gunna go with a half raise, they weren't great, but at this point in the game there acceptable. and in my previous post, i wasn't saying that your votes were bad, but i was kinda thinking it, i was saying that we're all assuming your town, and if your not then all the voting makes sense for a mafia member.

[chaotic_diablo]

Upon further re-read (and this has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the raging MeMe debate), I will

FOS broomhead

and

FOS chaotic diablo

, because of their interactions on pages 2-3. At the top of page 2, broomhead said something strange, quickly accumulated 2 votes and 1 FOS. Then, comes chaotic diablo, and, with no regard to the ongoing discussion ... votes for himself? It

almost

seems like c.d. saw a fellow mafia member (who also happens to be an inexperienced player) in trouble, and quickly came in to shift the focus away from him. Then, when people asked c.d. for clarification, broomhead actually responded for him in posts 51/53

I've already explained my disregard for the ongoing discussion and

part

of the reason for my vote.
The only person who asked for clarification was Pariah. To me, it sounded more like a rhetorical one, followed by a disgruntled accusation and FOS.

@Meme, I raise my hand, but I don't see any difference from the other votes other people have made.

[Alexander]

Your explanation, c.d. (I presume you mean posts 46/ 49), seems to have no logical purpose other than horsing around and drawing attention to itself. It doesn't explain anything, at least not in the common-English-language sense of 'explain'.

Pariah asked for clarification based

only on your behavior

. If you consider just your erratic self-voting, there really is not much to go by, not even good for a disgruntled FOS (and by the way, he did not FOS you as a result of the self-vote, but as a result of the OMGUS vote that came afterwards). I also though at first there is not much to go by, because I was also

only looking at you

, not on a combination of factors.

However considering your behavior

in combination

with an impending broomhead wagon is good enough to FOS both of ya... or at least IGMEOY... nah, FOS is better, let's keep the FOS.

[chaotic_diablo]

My explanation included my opinion. The ongoing discussion was on random voting, not Broomhead. I didnt' want to join in.
Horsing around was to fulfill the request of Adele. Any correlation with broomhead was by coincidence.
The first vote on Broomhead was random, followed by Talitha who just wanted a second vote to put on. The FOS by Pariah included a smiley, a possible indication of lack of seriousness. The discussion had nothing to do with Broomhead. What kind of attention was I trying to divert away?

How did you get "people" from person?

[Talitha]

I'm not going to go over MeMe's reasons for voting and give them a rating out of 10 and see if she achieves a passing grade. Not on Day 1. The main thing I look for is,

does the person voting really believe their own reasons?

And I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt to MeMe right now.

The people I am happy to vote/bandwagon right now are n_lich and broomhead. For non-committal posts and a feeling that they are holding back. Still watching Pariah out of the corner of my eye too.

My vote is already on broomhead, but n_lich is quieter, so

unvote: broomhead, vote: n_lich

[Adele]

Upon further re-read (and this has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the raging MeMe debate), I will FOS broomhead and FOS chaotic diablo, because of their interactions on pages 2-3. At the top of page 2, broomhead said something strange, quickly accumulated 2 votes and 1 FOS. Then, comes chaotic diablo, and, with no regard to the ongoing discussion ... votes for himself? It almost seems like c.d. saw a fellow mafia member (who also happens to be an inexperienced player) in trouble, and quickly came in to shift the focus away from him. Then, when people asked c.d. for clarification, broomhead actually responded for him in posts 51/53.

Woah, I disagree with you.

1) Broomhead was not in trouble. When Talitha put on a second vote,

I usually just look for a likely looking

victim

person to put a second vote on.

it doesn't look like it's intended to turn into a bandwagon. I don't think there was any danger, considering the first vote was random, and the FOS didn't look aggressive. Maybe Broomhead was worried at this stage - although he didn't seem worried to me. I certainly don't think Chaotic would've been nervous about this, considering his experience.
2) You don't need to look for a motive for Chaotic to self-vote; he did so in Mini 264, Mini 242, Mini 233, and Mafiascum alphabet soup. The examples I found where he didn't self-vote were those games where he'd already been voted for. It's not so much a habit as an addiction at this point.
3) If I check in, and there's something to say, I say it. That's also been a topic of discussion today , but I don't see anything collusive in Broomhead chiming in with his opinions.

Bearing in mind these three points, I think you have no argument left.

[Alexander]

Adele,
When chaotic_diablo posted this:

I voted myself for the last few games.

It seemed so ludicrous to me that I didn't even bother to check the veracity of this statement. In retrospect, I should have. However, since you did the research for me and came up with a specific list, I concede that his self-voting whimsy is at least consistent. So,

UNFOS chaotic_diablo

and, since the accusation vs. broomhead was by association, also

UNFOS broomhead

.

PS: I actually quite disagree with your points 1 and 3, but it matters not. Point #2 pulls the rug under my argument by itself.

[Foolster41]

Hi. Still alive. Not a whole lot of discussion going on. I don't really think Chaotic voting himself is really scummy, though of course it's debatible still weither it's smart.

As for broom and lich being uncommital:
Lich voted only once, on me and kept it there. He doesn't seem to be shifting around a lot to me, though he hasn't said much either (5 posts), which maybe makes me a little nervous.

Broomhead has posted 3 times as much as lich (15 posts). He only FOSs once, and then unFOsed later. He also half-heartedly psudeovotes(tm) (To meme's question about her reasoning being good) against Meme.

So out of the two, I'd say broom is a little less comittal, but lich is quite a bit more lurky.

[broomhead]

when I vote, my vote will stay. if it seems that I don't vote much, you're right. You'll just have to wait till i find someone scummy enough or a deadline is implemented.

[N_lich]

*hand does something*
Re MeMe's votes + arguments for:

1. First post of the game, opens with a vote on broomhead- can without problems be chalked up to an expressed preference to have vote on someone.

2. Agreed with by several people - To my mind a very weak argument, but I have no objections with it being the basis for the vote at the stage of the game it was made at.

3. No qualms with as expressed before.

4.

unvote: Talitha
vote: Adele

You'd been riding me over nothing you hadn't done yourself -- backing off rather fast ("no longer desperate to have [me] explain") when a few others agreed with me. Last time you posted, it was to say you thought I was "okayish" -- not that you still had your eye on me or anything, but that you now believed that you needn't distrust me and that we simply disagree with one another "a lot." One person votes me (and has since backed off a tad since I responded well and corrected some of his case) and you hop on with "he didn't say anything I haven't thought." Basically, you hauled me up to the front of the class early without voting me...got no support...said "I think she's alright now"...and only put your vote where your mouth is (was...then wasn't...now is again, that is) once Alexander did it first.

Either your last post was bull or the current one is.

There's indeed an inconsistency between the two posts.

However:
1. I don't think that Adele changing her mind is entirely unreasonable.
2. This post seems somewhat confrontational and overstated.

In summary- Do I think the reasons are "very good"? No. But I don't think they're bad either. In total, I'd say my suspsicion of you is about at the same level it was at the start of the game.

Hesitant to put a 4th on Pariah at this time, only 'cause I may not be able to check back very soon for reactions.

But why didn't you when you got back?

[Tamuz]

I apologize for my inattentveness over the last week. I'm out of town for the remainder of this weekend but I give my promise will do a complete catch-up and analysis early this week.

[Talitha]

But why didn't you when you got back?

Because when I got back I read the thread properly, so I didn't have to resort to pure bandwagoning for my vote.

[Pariah]

I wouldn't say they were all "very good", but they were not

bad.

when I vote, my vote will stay. if it seems that I don't vote much, you're right. You'll just have to wait till i find someone scummy enough or a deadline is implemented.

Am I interpreting this wrong or are you saying you aren't going to unvote someone once you vote no matter what? Regardless of defense or further evidence?

[Adele]

Okay, I've just reread the thread person-by-person. and no-one looks real scummy to me.

sigh

Yeah, that kind of includes MeMe... I feel like my suspicions toward her are on a see-saw...

I'm not going to go over MeMe's reasons for voting and give them a rating out of 10 and see if she achieves a passing grade. Not on Day 1. The main thing I look for is,

does the person voting really believe their own reasons?

And I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt to MeMe right now.

Y'see, that's a relevant perspective. It's possible MeMe's sincere... but she's the best one for me out there right now.