Newbie 958 ~Game over!

[Shadow Dancer]

@ Earlder: OK, you're telling the truth (at least almost, you replaced out of a mini modded by Inco, right?). So I take you as inexperienced for now. Still - if you keep acting intentionally scummy one way or another I'd consider you at least a good choice for a D1 policy lynch, if no real suspect occurs...

@Shadow Dancer:
Why so wishy-washy? You mention that you feel Earlder1 seems like an inexperienced player but then you conclude that he's no newbie and he should know better? Also, you mention that you didn't like my vote without reason but then mention that that's just some people's playstyles and then you IGMEOY on me? Which is it?

That's what I wanna find out. In my first newbie gane on this site I there was an IC (Thesp) that was quasi active lurking. He set his vote on me and refused to explain it - and eventually got me lynched. I was town, he was townie, too, though.
On the other hand in Greek mythology (LC was also in that one) I ran into some one (Johoohno) asking lots of questions but not really taking stances most of the time, who turned out to be scum faking scum hunting.

IGMEOY is all I can say for now, really.

Fixed broken links. ~Nik

[Nikanor]

Vote Count 1.11

Earlder1 (2)

- LordChronos, ThatTumblweed

Shadow Dancer (2)

- Coach Travis, brianj

Incognito (1)

- remouk

brianj (1)

- Earlder1

remouk (1)

- Shadow Dancer

Leech (1)

- Incognito

Not Voting (1)

- Leech

With nine players alive, five votes are required to lynch.

Deadline falls on Saturday June 5 at 17:14 UTC.

[Shadow Dancer]

Activity back to zero, eh?

unvote. vote Leech

My way of prodding people. His last post is nine days ago (I do not count his lame prod pickup).

I might change my vote if I find something else while ISO reading.

@Nikanor: Please Prod or replace Leech

[Nikanor]

Leech and remouk have been prodded.

[Shadow Dancer]

My impression of LC is basically the same I had in Greek Mythology - apart from being more helpfull on a meta level, which is normal for an SE player in noob game - doesn't necessarily mean he's town, though... His signature indicates he is quite a succesful scum player...

I fully understand Remouk's feeling abput Inco, but I think he is ovrfocussing a bit lately, which I find strange since he also repeatedly points out that he has no clue who might mbe scum. He should spraed out his antennae further, I think,
@Rem: What are your feelings about other players? Who else is suspect? Whom do you find rather townish? (I think there are quite some more directions you could think into if you are stuck in the game, that keep you off fatal one way streets).

I get townie vibes from CT, but I am quite irritated by him a)saying RQS>RVS and b)opening up the game with a random vote and not asking any questions for quite a while. Halfhearted scum hunting attempt by actual scum? I think some one else also pointed out this issue, but CT did not address it so far.

I think that's all for now. Or have I forgotten anybody?

I also just realized that Leech is no noob but official SE in this game. That makes his SE unworthy lurking/flaking out really suspicious, of course.

Vote confirmed

[Coach Travis]

@Shadow Dancer:Yeah, that was probably the only stupid thing I've done so far. I think what happened is I figured that since there were already some random votes when I went to do my first post, I'd just go along with it. And as I've said, I don't feel comfortable really initiating anything, and I still don't fully understand how to effectively use RQS(I more just think it sounds useful in theory, but don't really know how to apply it, which questions to ask, etc.)so when you take that and the fact that I find RVS entertaining and don't exactly find it useless, well I guess that's about as much of an explanation as I have.

[Incognito]

Since Shadow Dancer brought up the topic of policy lynching, I just wanted to mention that I'm strongly against policy lynching. Our goal should really be to attempt to lynch scum Day by Day. In my opinion, policy lynching is downright lazy - it's not an actual attempt to figure out a person's alignment since it just pushes for a person's lynch very blindly, and it's a very easy thing for scum to join in on without looking so bad after the lynch has occurred. So yeah.

IGMEOY is all I can say for now, really.

Well, did you disagree with the reasons I voted Earlder1 in the first place? Do you think the line of questioning I've done here looks fake? If you don't disagree with my reasons or don't think my line of questioning looks fake, then I can't really see why an IGMEOY would be necessary in this case. I don't know if you're just paranoid about ICs in general, but I think I'm a fairly readable person.


-~-~-~


I'm getting a slightly better vibe from Shadow Dancer than I did with Alta - I like the fact that he's using the metagame to try to help him out with regard to LC's alignment since I think metagaming is something that's more likely to be done by town as opposed to scum. I would obviously still like to see more from him though - I realize that there's a very real chance that Shadow could just be a better scum player than Alta. But for now my suspicions of that player slot are decreasing a bit.

[LordChronos]

@SD

Unfortunately, I'm not quite so good as town. And those scum wins are a little deceptive. One was a win like the scum win in Greek Mythology; town should have won but did something incredibly stupid. Another (the game with Leech) was helped along by a lurk-heaven town.

On a more on-topic subject:

@Earlder

I think the issue here is a miscommunication of the definition of "neutral read". I generally use it to describe someone I can't peg as town or scum. That is what you said about me, so I wondered about the inconsistency.

Can you clarify what you mean by a neutral read?

Also, brian wasn't trying to fence-sit and appease both sides. He supported Incog's position with regards to the case remouk made and said he thought more activity from remouk was good. That is in no way fence-sitting.

@Coach Travis

Why are you not comfortable initiating things? Town worries about catching scum, which is not best done by solely reacting and not initiating things. It is the scum who tend to not start things and instead slip on to mislynches.

@Incog

Policy lynches do have their place in a few select circumstances. Not here in newbie games though.

I don't know about SD, but I have found that ICs tend to be harder to read and have a generally townie vibe due to the informational nature of their role. So I am cautious with them. Thus far I don't think you are likely to be scum though.

@SD

Please no lynch all lurkers policy lynches. Replace the lurkers, don't lynch them. Unless they start active lurking and also doing scummy things.

We need to hear more from Leech and remouk or we need to get them replaced.

[Earlder1]

@LC

Well, I will try and break this down for you.
Neutral read - A read on someone that doesn't lean them toward either scum or town.
No read- Not having enough information to really form an opinion about someone.

It's a difference of opinion about brian. I understand that he agreed with Incog and applauded Remouk for activity. I still see that as playing the field however, and not trying to rub anyone the wrong way.

[Coach Travis]

@LC:Because just in general I'm not used to initiating anything(in real life I'm the quiet guy who's just kinda there, and rarely says a word, except to people I know well), so it's like I wouldn't even know what to say get anything going, so I prefer to just sit back and then comment on things I see. I find I'm more helpful reacting, because if I try to initiate anything, I'm more likely to make a mistake than to do anything helpful, due to my lack of experience doing such a thing. Basically to sum it up:I've spent so much time being a certain way, I don't think I could just suddenly change it.

On topic, I definitely think Shadow Dancer is doing a much better job than Alta, and he doesn't seem nearly as scummy so far.

[remouk]

Aaah, I can finally reach the website! Sorry for the delay, I couldn't join the forum these days. Two pages to catch up and I'll post!

[Incognito]

LordChronos, which situations? I can't think of any that I'd really ever support one.

[remouk]

Had an emergency, no time to post right now and I'll be offline until monday. I'm very sorry. So, no time to explain it all, but:

unvote Incognito

[Nikanor]

Vote Count 1.12

Earlder1 (2)

- LordChronos, ThatTumblweed

Shadow Dancer (2)

- Coach Travis, brianj

Leech (2)

- Incognito, Shadow Dancer

brianj (1)

- Earlder1

Not Voting (2)

- Leech, remouk

With nine players alive, five votes are required to lynch.

Deadline falls on Saturday June 5 at 17:14 UTC.

[Incognito]

Hi Niko-mod! remouk unvoted!

Oops. There's that blindness again. ~Nik

[Shadow Dancer]

To set some the record straight:

@Inco: In deed I think being partially attentive towards ICs (and also SEs) in a newby game is a good point to start with, just for the simple fact that those players are the most likely to be superior and manipulative towards the other players - and if they are scum they are unlikely to make slip up esily. No way am I trying to put you up against a wall, misslynching an IC is probably the most fatal mislynch. The reason why I actually brought up this issue is, that I just saw signs of a playstyle on you that I had quite negative experiences with (as I mentioned), but that I do not neccesarily consider a scum tell, because I have seen it being more of a playstyle thing in quite some games in this forum (not just those I was in).

What was your reason for voting Earlder? I think you were mostly refering to brianj's case against him...

Wait bria...whatever... Who's he?! Is he in this game?! Has he contributed something already?! - Seriously: I just realize that I totally overlooked him in my ISO reading... Will catch up on it :\

The general probem with quetsions is that normally one cannot see if they are intended genuine scum hunting or just scum fishing for townie slipups... However: Not asking any questions

is

scummy... Just asking questions and not taking stances is also scummy.
That being said I should prbably put you in the rather town from gut cathegory. It's just that I am always paranoid while playing mafia

about policy lynching: scum lynching > policy lynching.

Always.

I totally agree. But on D1 with close deadline and no likely scum candidate to lynch it is still better than no lynch, I think.
Especially related to Earlder: Who says all he's claiming is not just a gambit to cover his later

real

scum behaviour. OK, I admit

policy lynch

is not the best term to describe it in that case...

@LC: I do not want to run a lynch all lurkers policy. That would basically also qualify as policy lynching, by the way.
However, voting some one and lynching some one are two different things. Besides lynching votes also help putting pressure on a player. That is by far the more important function of votes, especially on D1.
If I saw a promissing scum candidate I'd immediatelly change my vote on that one.

Right now I'd best like Leech replaced...

@remouk: To bad... I hope next week you can participate more. However, I'd like to learn your reason for unvoting Inco. Isn't he your top suspect any more? If so, what changed your mind?

@CT: You do not really need a thought out plan to hunt scum or "intiate something", as you say. Just look out for the edges were you can put the lever in, then see what happens. Also remember we are seven townies, you are not alone with the task, if you start something others will surely join you. Just have some courage, leaning back and waiting is considered anti town for good reasons.

[Shadow Dancer]

OK, about brianj:

Starts with lots of meta talk, later on some questions... But his analysis is quite good, so I give him a beutral read for now.

[Earlder1]

I want to be read a beutral!

My impression of shadow dancer is that he is going to be much more helpful that Alta. So far his posts seem logical and coherent (although slight grammar errs). What this means for his alignment, however, I am not sure of. He is obviously a better player that who he replaced since he is actively and logically making his mark on the game. But the best scum players will always be quite logical as well, giving then an aura of townie. We also cannot drop the reads that each of us had on Alta as well, because although the person is different, the alignment is the same. That being said, I am leaning him more towards the town, but will not forget Alta's early play.

[Coach Travis]

it's a tricky situation though, because obviously I was very suspicious of Alta, but it's not impossible that his bad play could be ruled out by inexperience, and just him being bad at the game, because I'm pretty sure he is a newbie. I can see it being hard for Shadow Dancer to have to come in and replace someone who was as bad as Alta, and had immediate suspicion(not to mention, 2 votes) on him just because the original player was doing that bad. So far, I'd say Shadow Dancer is doing a good job, and there's no way I'd be voting him if he wasn't replacing Alta. In fact, I think I'm ready to

Unvote

, because ever since joining the game he's done nothing suspicious, and he's been helpful.

[Shadow Dancer]

LOL.... I always fail to correct my typos... beutral = brutal x neutral, i.e. brutally neutral, btw (Not really)

To be honest I'd vote Alta myself, if I wasn't his replacement. I can only speculate about his motives. I think it is obvious that he was a newbish/bad/inexperienced player. I think I can also read from his comments that he was just too impatient for this forum with its slow paced games.
How ever, you are right in assuming that me showing better behaviour is nor reason to not suspect me, as well as there is no reason to not suspect SEs or ICs because they are helpful or not to suspect TTW at all, just because she is a sweetheart.
For D1 such gut reads are okay, I guess, since basically they are all we have to judge from. But it is always better to look for hard facts (investigations, contradictions, lies etc.) and soft facts (voting history, meta gaming etc., that are much better scum indicators.

@E1: As you might have realized I'm not a native english speaker, so I'd be rather glad than offended if you's point out my most blatant errors in grammar or choice of words.

@CT: Just unvoting?! So you do not have any suspects, no one you want to pressure? No questions you want to have answered? That looks a bit undedicated to me right now.

Leech still hasn't shown up... Which is too bad. I feel kinda stuck right now...

@Nikanor: Please replace leech.

[Shadow Dancer]

Hello? (hello? (hello? (hello? (hello? (...)))))

Anybody here? (here? (here? (here? (here? (...))))

I feel alone and affraid. (affraid (affraid (affraid (affraid (...))))

Is every one dead?! (dead?! (dead?! (dead?! (dead?! (...))))

This thread surely is (....ly is (...ly is (...ly is (...ly is (...))))

[Nikanor]

Vote Count 1.13

Earlder1 (2)

- LordChronos, ThatTumblweed

Leech (2)

- Incognito, Shadow Dancer

Shadow Dancer (1)

- brianj

brianj (1)

- Earlder1

Not Voting (3)

- Leech, remouk, Coach Travis

With nine players alive, five votes are required to lynch.

Deadline falls on Saturday June 5 at 17:14 UTC.

brianj and ThatTumblweed have been prodded.

Leech is being replaced.

[Incognito]

Shadow Dancer: I listed my reasoning for voting Earlder1 in this post. To summarize, I was just seeing a pattern of behavior coming from him that suggested that he was more concerned with his own appearance to the rest of the town than I would expect town to have. Examples included: 1) one of his initial posts where he was reluctant to put another vote on me out of fear of jumping on a bandwagon, and 2) his other post where he mentions that he's concerned about looking scummy for diverging discussion.

Since then, I just took issue with his initial stance on Leech.

In fact, I think I'm ready to

Unvote

, because ever since joining the game he's done nothing suspicious, and he's been helpful.

This is a common misconception. Being helpful does not in any way shape or form mean that the person being helpful is town. Scum can just as easily take on the helpful role as town can, so I'd be careful with using this as a town-tell. That said, I don't think Shadow Dancer is the play Today either.

Who would you vote for at this moment, Coach Travis?

[Coach Travis]

Well, I'm still a bit unsure of Remouk, because I can't decide if he's really all that suspicious, or it it's just that he hasn't done much of anything aside from that weak vote. Same with Leech, really. Everyone else has mostly been trying to help, and with players like that unless they do something clearly scummy, it's kinda hard to pick one to vote early on, because they kinda deserve a chance to prove their innocence.

With that being said, out of the active players, Earlder 1 does still seem the most suspicious, due to his whole attitude, and plan of deliberately not wanting to appear town, because that really doesn't help anyone except the mafia, because it makes him an easier lynch target, if he is in fact town. He has been doing better lately, but if I had to pick someone to vote out of the actual contributing players, it would be him, since I'm finding no reason to vote any of the others.

[ThatTumblweed]

Ack! Sorry guys. I've been readig and keeping up, but didn't have anything to contribute as I was doing so. This weekend is a busy one, so I'll post more analysis on Monday (and I have some! I just haven't gone back through and made it coherent yet.)

Super sorry!