Newbie 816 - Game over!

[Manzcar]

IKD said

imo, the 3rd spot is a very safe space to pile on. Because you aren't the hammer and you didn't put the person at L-1, and on the same token you didn't help initiate a bandwagon by being one of the first two. Let me tell you that multiple times I've seen scum be the third on bandwagon and slip by. Maybe not because of that, but it didn't put suspicion on them in any case.

But you have concentrated your suspicions and conversation on HFitz and tfrench. Why have you not looked at the others on the bandwagon? What do you think of dram and EBad jumping multiple bandwagons?

[Manzcar]

Unvote

[ElectricBadger]

I was 1st, 2nd and 3rd respectively on each wagon, so only one was even barely definable as a 'wagon' when I joined; claiming I'm rushing to wagons is unfounded and untrue. But your misrepresentation of events to cast suspicion is duly noted.

Nor did I ever claim bandwagons are a scum tell. Using votes for pressure, and later to lynch, is the town's only weapon. But 4 votes in 5 posts (and that only because dramonic didn't post his vote right the first time) is obviously extreme and demonstrates some players were eager to join a wagon without any particular effort to investigate or reason on their own - which strikes me as a scummy wagon.

So, as the underlying pattern you've based your question on doesn't exist and couldn't have inspired the comment, what was your purpose?

[dramonic]

also,

unvote

Too quick to be at l-1.

But you didn't give a reason for your unvote. Why did you feel you should unvote Adel?

I gave a reason, reason was too quick to be at l-1. It is based on a very quick and erroneous read I did between my vote and my unvote, in which I counted all votes for Adel. However, due to distraction, I also counted the votes in quotes, therefore adding up to 4.

[Manzcar]

@ EB I don't think that using votes as pressure is our only weapon. I believe questioning people and understanding motives is also a viable weapon that we have to use. It allows us to understand peoples motives and then guage whether those motives are there to benefit the town or scum. And when something seems off or weird to me I ask the question for clarification and then guage the response.

My understanding of a wagon is when multiple people vote for the same person. what you described is that you can't be part of two of the three wagons because you were the first and second vote on two of them. Regardless to the fact that the votes got to three or more votes on each of the players in question. If you use my understanding you were part of all three wagons, but using your understanding you were only part of one. So I was not misrepresenting the facts to my knowledge but doing so to your knowledge.

My purpose to asking the question is to gain understanding and clarification to things that seem off to me. I was trying to understand your voting pattern with relationship to the statement that you made. I asked questions of everyone, accept pancakes who is getting replaced, because I want to understand gain insight on everyone.

Do you believe we should be asking questions to understand others motives?

@dramonic okay I thought that is what you meant but by my count there were only two votes so it seemed weird that you would unvote and state that you were doing so because Adel was at L-1 when he was at L-3.

[ElectricBadger]

I believe that was exactly the sort of thing I asked you - what your purpose was. Questions are a means, and yes, important, but useless on their own, without the pressure of votes to enforce response and carry out findings.

You again cite my 'voting pattern'. The fact that people have followed my votes? What exact behavior of mine does that indicate? How would I control the votes of several other players except by their agreement with my statements and logic, and if that is faulty, why are you not addressing it instead?

You are forcing a pattern where there is none, even after a polite correction (lest it be an honest mistake), and using it to query other players in the hopes they'll form baseless suspicion. You are not drawing conclusions from evidence but instead looking for any excuse to cast suspicion where none is due.

That is scum behavior.

Unvote tfrench, vote Manzcar

[Manzcar]

EB I did answer what my purpose was to asking you the question. I wanted to get an understanding of you. I wan't trying to build a case against you, I wasn't attacking you, and I didn't find you scummy. In fact you cleared up my confusion with your post and the fact that the band wagons you mention in your statement is not the same way that I was thinking of bandwagons, and I thought I conveyed that but obviously didn't.

By voting pattern I meant your votes nothing more. I wasn't trying to convey that there was some pattern that should be analyzed and used against you. I find the reasoning behind your votes to be logical both HFitz and tfrench jumped on a bandwagon to force an L-1 situation. You even have logic behind your current vote of me.

Again the purpose of my question to you and everyone else was to gain information and not to cast suspicion.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Manzcar, please use the preview button and get all your thoughts out in 2 or 3 posts. 7 posts in a row is way too many.

Official Vote Count

purple princess - 3 (Cirdua, havingfitz, tfrench)

tfrench - 2 (imkingdavid, dramonic)
dramonic - 1 (zwetschenwasser)
Manzcar - 1 (ElectricBadger)

No Lynch - 2 (Manzcar, purple princess)

Not Voting - 0 ()

5 to Lynch.

Deadline

is the end of Tuesday, August 11 (Eastern, GMT - 4).

[Cirdua]

Cird your vote is still on pancakes do you still believe that his action was scummy?

Maybe not that scummy, he was a newbie and, judging by his absence, one not too interested in this game (maybe because of our no-nolynch way of playing). He's getting replaced anyway so I'll

unvote

.

Also, you don't need to make a new post for every person you want to cast suspicion on, you can just say something like "@ Pancakes" to indicate who you are going to question next. I've noticed you did your best to cast suspicion on almost everyone, are you trying to avoid getting the players' attention on yourself? Just asking.

[Manzcar]

Cird said

Maybe not that scummy, he was a newbie and, judging by his absence, one not too interested in this game (maybe because of our no-nolynch way of playing). He's getting replaced anyway so I'll unvote.

Also, you don't need to make a new post for every person you want to cast suspicion on, you can just say something like "@ Pancakes" to indicate who you are going to question next. I've noticed you did your best to cast suspicion on almost everyone, are you trying to avoid getting the players' attention on yourself? Just asking.

I thought separating it would allow an easier read through for everyone else. Mega long posts that jump from person to person I find hard to follow. I wasn’t trying to cast suspicions I was just asking questions. Though it is WIFOM how does asking everyone questions not put attention on myself. In fact it has done the opposite if I am not mistaken. My goal for asking all the questions is to get a feeling on people when they answer the questions I ask. I actually feel that pancakes knew he wasn’t coming back and voted no lynch to get the reaction it had. But I also believe that one or both of the scum jumped on the wagon to try and get a quick lynch.

[havingfitz]

I'm still good with pancakes for my vote (or whomever he is replaced by). I'm wading through ~40 pages in word of all the Newbie 816 posts to see if someone else should have my vote. Everytime someone makes what I think is a good point someone else brings up good counter points and it's not making my deductive reasoning any sharper....

[zwetschenwasser]

Okay I have read through the thread and there are things that caught my eye.

zwets, I don't know Adel so I don't know how he plays so you may not be able to clear this up for me, but Adel kept changing votes the first two seemed to be RVS, but then the vote on EB to put him at L-2 for no apparent reason seemed strange, then he changed votes again to HF because he felt that HF was the best canidate for being scum because he had the most possible scum partners, and then his last vote was for IKD for what seems to be OMGUS reasoning.

To me the flow of votes seems strange. But then you went and said this

zwets said

Ok, first, I'm not Adel. Adel is a scumhunting master, logical bonanzical schmu, and in my opinion the best player on the site.

Is there any reason why you needed to make sure everyone knew he was a scumhunting master?

Adel obviously had a problem with IKD even calling him a scumbag and you didn't have many nice words to say about him either. Do you find IKD scummy as well? And if so what makes you think he is?

I don't find IKD scummy, I find him arrogant, which I think is why Adel got mad at him.

[imkingdavid]

(back... sort of)

Okay I have read through the thread and there are things that caught my eye.

zwets, I don't know Adel so I don't know how he plays so you may not be able to clear this up for me, but Adel kept changing votes the first two seemed to be RVS, but then the vote on EB to put him at L-2 for no apparent reason seemed strange, then he changed votes again to HF because he felt that HF was the best canidate for being scum because he had the most possible scum partners, and then his last vote was for IKD for what seems to be OMGUS reasoning.

To me the flow of votes seems strange. But then you went and said this

zwets said

Ok, first, I'm not Adel. Adel is a scumhunting master, logical bonanzical schmu, and in my opinion the best player on the site.

Is there any reason why you needed to make sure everyone knew he was a scumhunting master?

Adel obviously had a problem with IKD even calling him a scumbag and you didn't have many nice words to say about him either. Do you find IKD scummy as well? And if so what makes you think he is?

I don't find IKD scummy, I find him arrogant, which I think is why Adel got mad at him.

Well, if arrogant = trying to be helpful, then sure. By the way, I found Adel's responses to me to be arrogant as well. I understand that he has been around the site for who knows how long and has played in a lot of games and such and is a "master scum hunter", as you said, but I just finished a game (and have read others that were similar) in which looking for scum pairs (or at least bringing up the idea of doing so) aided scum to victory. While, being scum in the game, I was happy to latch onto that, I stand by the fact that it is not good for town to try and find scum pairs this early in the game when no ones' identity is known. Once we figure out one scum, I would be more than willing to look for links between that person and others.

Anyway, as we have beaten that topic to death (although we've not come to much of an agreement on it), let me answer a few questions.

But you have concentrated your suspicions and conversation on HFitz and tfrench. Why have you not looked at the others on the bandwagon? What do you think of dram and EBad jumping multiple bandwagons?

Good point. I should be looking at other people as well. However, I just found TF's action scummy, so I voted it. I will be sure to take a closer look at each of the people that jumped on that wagon.

dramonic is currently #1 on my scum list, for blatant buddying up to imkingdavid's early long post, and other posts by newbies, which in my opinion has little content or any real opinions.

imkingdavid is WAY too wordy and is making huge mountains out of molehills, and somehow thinks that Adel is scum for getting annoyed at his imbecilities. His first post was most definitely NOT the amazingly lucid post dramonic said it was, and I'm confused as to why he praised it so much when it didn't even make sense and was pretty much full of completely wrong conclusions.

Vote: dramonic

Fair enough. However, please look at who is making a mountain out of a molehill. I came into the game and simply stated and explained my opinion on searching for scum pairs, as it was already being discussed. You know my opinion on doing so this early in the game. However, I was ready to drop the point and move on until Adel began tunneling/attacking me for it. I don't see how my defense is arrogant, although it may be wordy (I find that I can often condense a lot of my sentences, but it's easier just to post my thoughts as I think them).

As far as my posting being "the amazingly lucid" post, that is up to you to decide. I actually didn't find it that great either, but not each one of your posts are going to drop jaws.

In any case, until I get a chance digest everything that has happened so far, I will go ahead and remove my vote on TF.

Unvote

[Manzcar]

HFitz, I know your wading through a lot of information but can you share who your top suspects are besides pancakes?

Tfrench, besides the original question asked, I would like to know if you would have hammered pancakes if EBad had not unvoted?

[imkingdavid]

@ Vel: I see you're looking for a replacement for pancakes, but also TF has not posted since the 30th, 5 days ago. Can you prod/replace him as well?

Btw, I am currently looking at all of the bandwagons/votes we have had so far to look for vote-following and such. However, I'm a bit busy with other stuff as well, so it may be a little while.

[zwetschenwasser]

I honestly see no solid case on pancakes.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Replacing tfrench.


purple princess replaces pancakes.

[purple princess]

Hey guys, just going to read through then I will post

[zwetschenwasser]

Velcomenzu

[purple princess]

Wow! my head is spinning after reading through this game!
What the hell is going on with all this no lynch and bandwaggon talk!

I see that people thought that no lynch was a good idea as it works on other mafia games, but I agree it has no place here.
I cannot really defend pancakes actions as they didn't really post much apart from no lynch and have come to the conclusion that they must have been new and realised that this wasn't for them, so instead of defending their vote they decided just to leave.

I see that a few bandwaggons have formed quite quickly but I am reluctant to think that they give us much information about who is/isn't scum this early on in the game as it could just be new players trying to find their feet before making logical reasons for voting.

FOS IKD

they game seemed a bit slow before you joined, but you seem to have jumped in with both feet and got the conversation rolling, which is a good thing, but your posts are really long and seem to have little substance to them, apart from going back and forth on the same argument I am unsure if this was tactical on your part. I also didn't like the way you tried to give 'teaching points' on how the game should be played. imo I find this a little scummy

@havingfitz, do you have any thoughts on this game? I'm sure you must have as there are 7 pages to go through, but you haven't really added anything to this game so far. I understand you say you are new, but this could be seen as lurking.

[purple princess]

ooops, forgot to say.........

unvote

[imkingdavid]

First off, welcome purple princess. (I'll call you purple or princess for short if that's cool with you).

Wow! my head is spinning after reading through this game!
What the hell is going on with all this no lynch and bandwaggon talk!

That's people trying to play epic mafia on mafiascum

I see that people thought that no lynch was a good idea as it works on other mafia games, but I agree it has no place here.
I cannot really defend pancakes actions as they didn't really post much apart from no lynch and have come to the conclusion that they must have been new and realised that this wasn't for them, so instead of defending their vote they decided just to leave.

That actually sounds pretty probable. A lot of people register and sign up for a game without knowing what they were getting themselves into.

I see that a few bandwaggons have formed quite quickly but I am reluctant to think that they give us much information about who is/isn't scum this early on in the game as it could just be new players trying to find their feet before making logical reasons for voting.

FOS IKD

they game seemed a bit slow before you joined, but you seem to have jumped in with both feet and got the conversation rolling, which is a good thing, but your posts are really long and seem to have little substance to them, apart from going back and forth on the same argument I am unsure if this was tactical on your part. I also didn't like the way you tried to give 'teaching points' on how the game should be played. imo I find this a little scummy

As I explained earlier, I only went back and forth because Adel brought it back up. I was happy to give my opinion, give reasoning for the opinion, and let it go. If people disagree, they may do what they want.
You will note that, when giving my opinion, I gave my reasoning behind them. And when Adel decided he didn't like that, he just basically said, "I'm right, you're wrong, shut up". If he had provided counter evidence or something to let me see why I might have been wrong, I would have taken that into account and probably would not have been as "arrogant", as zwet put it.
Also, how is trying to help people learn a way to play considered scummy? I have my way of scum hunting and I'm trying to give my opinion on how things can be done. However, it seems like everyone else (namely, you, zwet, and Adel) is saying "Stop trying to help". Remember that this is a Newbie game with, well, newbies. So helping them get the hang of things is/should be expected.

[imkingdavid]

btw, I should add that once again am going to be

V/LA from tomorrow (around noon) until the 9th.

This time with definitely no internet at all. I'll try to post up until then if anyone posts anything that needs a response.

[purple princess]

Also, how is trying to help people learn a way to play considered scummy? I have my way of scum hunting and I'm trying to give my opinion on how things can be done. However, it seems like everyone else (namely, you, zwet, and Adel) is saying "Stop trying to help". Remember that this is a Newbie game with, well, newbies. So helping them get the hang of things is/should be expected.

I understand that this is a newbie game, but isn't that really the job of the ic and se's if new players need some help? I just get the feeling that you have postsed your teaching points because this is the way you like the game to be played, remember not everyone will share your way of doing things.
I find that newbie games are quite leanient on new players who may look as being scum when really it is just down to inexperience, there are guides if they need help and if that doesn't help they could always just ask.

I still cannot make my mind up if you are scummy or as zwetschenwasser said just arrogant, I will do some more delving and then get back to you.

Can I ask everyone what is your experience of mafia? I would just like to see how new people really are.

[imkingdavid]

I understand that this is a newbie game, but isn't that really the job of the ic and se's if new players need some help? I just get the feeling that you have postsed your teaching points because this is the way you like the game to be played, remember not everyone will share your way of doing things.

So now we get down to it. If I had an IC/SE tag, would my "arrogance" turn into being helpful? Where do you draw the line? Are you saying that everyone should try to be the least helpful they can when they don't have an IC/SE tag? I can do that if you like.

by the way, I'm not saying that everyone will share my way of doing things. Like I said before, if anyone had given me a decent response to my opinion (rather than basically "I'm right, you're wrong, shut up"), I would have listened to what they said and possibly agreed after thinking about it.

I find that newbie games are quite leanient on new players who may look as being scum when really it is just down to inexperience, there are guides if they need help and if that doesn't help they could always just ask.

Well, I normally count things as newbie play rather than scum play near the beginning of the game, but as it goes on they get less and less lenience, imo. (although I am finding now that what I think is considered arrogant. So should I just let zwet make all the calls and follow him blindly because he's the IC?)

I still cannot make my mind up if you are scummy or as zwetschenwasser said just arrogant, I will do some more delving and then get back to you.

If you were to find me just arrogant, who would you see as scum? If you find me scum (since Adel seemed to have wanted it this way) who would you think might be my partner?

Can I ask everyone what is your experience of mafia? I would just like to see how new people really are.

On this site I have completed 1 game (Newbie 802) and am currently in two games (Newbie 809, Newbie 816). I am also signed up for another Newbie game, since neither of these games are as active as my first and I have some more time on my hands. (btw once I'm an a game as SE, am I allowed to be helpful in my other games as well, or is it still considered arrogant?)
In real life, I've played a bunch as all of the basic roles and won some, lost some.