Mini 554 - Mafia in Vollville - Over!!

[vollkan]

Mod: The first post has Matt_S as replacing ChaosOmega. I'm pretty sure that's not right.

Thanks. I copied and pasted the text from Guardian (seeing as they were both goons).

[pickemgenius]

fuck. im dead.

[Jitsu]

Thank goodness... Um, you can put down that gun now, Patrick

Patrick?

In all seriousness, I congratulate the town on pulling it out and the scum for making it a good game. It's been a lot of fun.

Now that the suspense is over, I can get a good night's rest. Additional comments to come tomorrow.

[Patrick]

2) I basically came up with my nightkill MOs on a whim. As in, there was nothing systematic about them; it was just me trying to have fun with the deaths. Was that appropriate?

It's probably ok. It added a bit of confusion, but was possible to get round. If you don't like people being able to work out what the killing groups are from flavour then it's fine.

3) Vote-counts. Did my system of having the top-of-page counts and the first page collection work well?

I was fine with it, but I don't usually look through lots of consecutive votecounts anyway.

4) Anything else?

Minor quibble: On night 2, you opened the day early even though my Xyl kill was only provisional. I probably wasn't going to change it, but it still would have been better to wait.

Thank goodness... Um, you can put down that gun now, Patrick Patrick?

I think I'll hold onto it

[vollkan]

It's probably ok. It added a bit of confusion, but was possible to get round. If you don't like people being able to work out what the killing groups are from flavour then it's fine.

Okay. My intention was simply to provoke speculation. I wanted people not to have a sound idea of what things meant. I could have just written "killed night #", but that's bland

Minor quibble: On night 2, you opened the day early even though my Xyl kill was only provisional. I probably wasn't going to change it, but it still would have been better to wait.

Thanks for raising that issue. The mafia actually sent in provisional kills as well. I was tossing up whether or not to PM you all for a "confirm", but I decided instead to push on with the game. I'll think about this for future games and come up with a means of accomodating for expediency and indecisiveness on the part of night choosers.

[Patrick]

Now I think of it, I'd probably recommend posting the generic vanilla townie PM on the front post in a mini normal. In past games where the PM hasn't been posted, I've seen vanilla townies manage to pseudo confirm each other by hinting at words which are in the vanilla townie PM. It can get messy.

[Erg0]

The town did a good job here, Matt was really painted into a corner on the last night as all of the remaining town players would be fairly tough to lynch on day 4 given their good play to that point. Three consecutive accurate lynches is pretty good, though we did effectively mislynch Oman in between.

I've been working on relaxing and following my first instinct a little more, and I was really happy with the way that it worked out here. Even so, I spent hours doing analysis on the last day and ended up voting exactly as I thought I would after my initial half hour speed-read of Matt and Jitsu's posts.

Balance was probably ok, the two kills with inconsistent flavour would probably have served to create enough confusion to stop the town from steamrolling the scum based on investigations. If the Tracker and Watcher hadn't both died on night 1 then CO's fake claim might have carried him a bit further, too. I do think that a roleblocker could potentially have neutered the vig somewhat, given the kill-immune godfather - maybe a scum role that could feed the tracker and watcher a fake result would be an interesting addition.

Posting the vanilla PM up front is always a good idea - I'm glad that we didn't see any shenanigans on the last day related to that.

I'm not really a huge fan of the totally random wagon that Adel pulled on day 1, but I do think it gave us a good springboard for the rest of the game. Tuning her out and looking at others' play towards her was a good source of information. I'm kind of glad she died when she did, though.

Poor Oman - he never had a chance once the confirmation bias kicked in. That claim didn't exactly help his cause, of course. I was feeling very proud of myself for finding all three scum on day 1 for a little while there, and then he had to go and spoil it by being a townie!

All in all, I'm very happy with this one. I liked the fact that we were able to win it mainly by scumhunting rather than relying on power roles. Having lost more than one game via daykills/blocks/whatever at endgame despite playing well, I really appreciate a setup that puts a good share of the power in the hands of the townies.

[Guardian]

Wooh, I won!
Aw... I lost...

Patrick, you're forgiven for killing me. I guess ^_^.

Day 2, I knew 100% C_O was mafia. I probably should have self-hammered at lynch minus 1

When Patrick hammered, I had a post typed out saying to NK Patrick, but vollkan locked the thread amazingly fast.

I'm very confused about the rationale behind not killing Patrick; he obviously was the vig from his hammer.

And then not killing him last night was just absurd. .

Well, good game guys. Town played better, town won.

[Erg0]

Not killing Patrick didn't make a lot of difference in the end (I wouldn't have voted Incog today either), but it would definitely have been the safer play. I wonder whether Matt was hoping someone would take up the SK line of thinking?

[Guardian]

btw vollkan, great job mod-ing.

You were really ocd about keeping up with the game, and that makes for a great mod!

Truly a good team effort by the town; no one person stood out too much, at least from my pov. Well done all.

1) Was the setup balanced? Yeah. IMO Slightly favoring scum if anything.
2) I basically came up with my nightkill MOs on a whim. As in, there was nothing systematic about them; it was just me trying to have fun with the deaths. Was that appropriate? Yeah, as long as you make that clear before hand.
3) Vote-counts. Did my system of having the top-of-page counts and the first page collection work well? Yeah. Definitely. If I weren't lazy I'd do that in games I mod'd, and would love for it in all games .
4) Anything else? Naw dude well mod'd. Role PMs first post, some rules I have in my games I find work better than yours, but overall nothing major 'tall.

[Erg0]

Regarding the nightkill flavour, my thought is that this should take one of three forms:

• All kill flavour is the same; or
  
• Each group and/or individual has a unique kill flavour that remains the same throughout the game; or
  
• No two kills have the same flavour throughout the game.

I don't usually read too much into kill flavour, but some people may have been misled by the fact that the person who was "shot" on night 1 was targeted by a different killer than the person who was "shot" on night 2. It's really not a big deal, but I'd suggest avoiding crossover between kill methods unless you've made a conscious decision to do things that way.

I liked the votecount method, it made it relatively easy for me to check the state of the voting at various points through the game while I was re-reading. In practice, the vote counts at the top of the page are perfectly sufficient, but the big list on the first page is a useful addition.

Very nice modding overall, I think.

[Patrick]

When Patrick hammered, I had a post typed out saying to NK Patrick, but vollkan locked the thread amazingly fast.

I'm very confused about the rationale behind not killing Patrick; he obviously was the vig from his hammer.

Yeah, I really did make my last post of day 2 expecting not to be alive day 3. Originally when you claimed SK, I decided you were looking for a hyper-reaction from the vig, so I tried to be one of those players that just quietly pushed your lynch, hoping not to stand out. It was frustrating to see a ton of people starting to defend you, although two of them did at least turn out to be scum. It meant I had to stick out as one of the bigger pushers. I would have argued the exact same position as a vanilla townie though.

[Xylthixlm]

I'd be interested to know the rationale behind the scum nightkills, and whether our little theory about Matt's day 3 vote on Xylthixlm being planned was correct.

Nope. The scum didn't plan anything.

[Jitsu]

Keep in mind that this was only my second game of mafia ever, but I think I have some useful feedback nonetheless.

1) Was the setup balanced? Or, rather, would it have been balanced if the tracker and watcher didn't die before doing anything ?

I think it was pretty well balanced. The game would obviously have been very different if we hadn't lost the tracker and watcher so quickly. It might have been a little biased a bit towards the town, but not much. I agree a roleblocker would have been too much, as it would have nerfed the vig pretty bad (I think I mentioned that in thread). With three power roles on the town side and only one mafia role for the watcher/tracker to find on any given night (the one actually making the kill), the watcher/tracker would had a much higher chance of seeing a townie target someone than a mafioso target someone. This did lead me down the wrong track as far as the setup went. I would have expected more scum with targeted abilities for the tracker/watcher to find.

2) I basically came up with my nightkill MOs on a whim. As in, there was nothing systematic about them; it was just me trying to have fun with the deaths. Was that appropriate?

I tend to agree with Erg0 here (people are probably getting tired of hearing that by now). If you don't want the flavor text to be used to reason out who killed who, making each kill unique sends the signal that the town shouldn't rely on the flavor. If you do want the town to use it, then it should be consistent -- each scum should have a kill method that stays constant throughout the game. Personally, I like using the information to try to deduce things.

3) Vote-counts. Did my system of having the top-of-page counts and the first page collection work well?

I liked it a lot. The interim vote counts eliminated the need to go back to the first page to figure out the vote count while reading, but the tallies on the first page served as a useful index of the game. If I wanted to figure out why someone voted someone else, I used the index to figure out what page the vote was on. This saved me a lot of time, since I tend not to keep a lot of notes.

4) Anything else?

Yes, I think in some cases, the flavor text gave things away. I don't know how others feel, but in a closed game, I would rather not be able to read into things to guess at the setup. Patrick was able to guess there was no SK from the opening post, and in the dawn post on Day 4, the line about Oman being pleased because the scum were nearly gone virtually confirmed to me there was no SK and only a single mafioso left. I have to think that was a little unfair to the scum. One advantage I think the scum should have over the town is that they should have a head start at guessing about the setup based on the roles they have. If you drop hints to the town, this advantage gets nerfed. I feel like the town should be clueless in a closed game so the scum can try to deceive the town with fakeclaims and the like. If you are going to give clues in the flavortext, they should be subtle and not easy to pick up on. Kind of a reward for people that are paying close attention.

All in all, I think you did an excellent job modding your first game. I would definitely enjoy playing with you again. Your attention to detail and timeliness is a very positive aspect in a mod. I think it's clear that you cared a lot about this game and really went the extra mile. I also enjoyed the non-standard setup. I think it would have been very interesting had the Tracker or Watcher lived to Day 2. It's gotta suck as a mod when a good chunk of the power roles die before they can do anything.

Thank goodness... Um, you can put down that gun now, Patrick

Patrick

?

I think I'll hold onto it

If Patrick is going to stay in VollVille with the gun, I'm moving out. Is there any room for me in Erg0ville or Incognitoville? Somehow I don't think I'm prepared for Adelville.

[Incognito]

Wow! This game finished!

I have to say, this was one of

the

most enjoyable games I've ever been in. I love the fact that practically everyone stayed in it until the end (only two replacements used and both were pretty early). It was also awesome how this game was pretty much entirely based on scum hunting. With both of our town investigative roles killed off during N1, the town consisted of a bunch of highly analytical vanilla townies with our extra firepower coming from our town vig. It was amazing how during D3, we were all on pretty much the same wavelength with our suspicions (though we were completely wrong about Oman =P).

I must say that I'm kinda glad I was NK-ed when I was. If I was placed in Patrick's shoes trying to decide between Jitsu and Matt_S, I would have been pretty torn. I was sold on Erg0 being town pretty much the whole game but Jitsu and Matt_S gave me mixed feelings. So very well done job by the end-game crew of Patrick, Erg0, and Jitsu of analyzing the entire thread and making a good logical decision. I also have to admit that even though Adel's play was somewhat loopy, she really was a good dose of comical relief. When she was NK-ed as town, I laughed so hard at some of the stuff she said during D2 about the opie wagon. Question for the scum: Why was Adel chosen as the NK when she was? Did you guys think she was the vig? Also, why was I chosen as the NK instead of Patrick? Did you think I was a protective role?

In response to vollkan:

I have a few questions, for anybody who wouldn't mind answering:
1) Was the setup balanced? Or, rather, would it have been balanced if the tracker and watcher didn't die before doing anything ?

I thought the setup was fairly balanced. Maybe the addition of a one-shot roleblocker or something along those lines may have made it a bit more balanced. I think the game

seemed

more town-balanced after D2 but that was more because of the circumstances that happened in the game (i.e. CO claiming Cop and our Tracker and Watcher dying when they did). The Cop claim would have been far more believable even if just

one

of those roles died during N1 but since both did, that really pushed the game in our favor.

2) I basically came up with my nightkill MOs on a whim. As in, there was nothing systematic about them; it was just me trying to have fun with the deaths. Was that appropriate?

I thought that was perfectly fine. As you could see, we were all pretty much confused and trying to piece things together during mid-game. I think Patrick and the scum had a greater advantage at figuring things out though because they knew the

real

cause of deaths. Us vanillas were pretty clueless.

3) Vote-counts. Did my system of having the top-of-page counts and the first page collection work well?

Vote-counts were awesome. It was nice to have that handy reference right at the top of each page.

4) Anything else?

I think you did an excellent job modding. It was pretty clear to me that you were on top of things and making sure things were updated in a timely manner. I just played in another mini which finished about two or three weeks ago that was terribly modded. So seeing the difference between that game and this one was a breath of fresh air.

Anyway, definitely had a good time playing this one, and I'd love to play with any of you again. This was definitely a fun group.

[Jitsu]

I started a tradition of giving comments to everyone after my first game, considering that I have only played one game at a time, and when you play with people for months at a time, you do get to know them a bit. So I'd like to continue that tradition here.

I agree with Guardian (thankfully I can stop putting 1 and 2 after his name, man that was getting annoying). This was really a team effort on the part of the town that ended up winning the game. A lot of things helped (which I'll mention below), but I think what ultimately won it was that there were was so much strong town play that the scum just could not kill enough strong townies fast enough. At the end of the game, Matt just ran out of scummy people to hide behind. This game was an excellent example of how if a large number of townies do not act scummy and do a good job scumhunting, the town can win.

@Guardian: Replacing in for ChaosOmega in the situation he got himself into was a very classy move and earns you a truckload of good karma points in my book. Nobody can say that you weren't a good sport in this game. Also, I feel a little bad for attacking you so hard on D1, and I think I might have gotten a bit smug at times, which wasn't my intention. I'm sorry about that. Actually though, your losing your cool and looking scummy is what turned me on to Xylthixlm in the first place, so some good did some out of it. I hope there's no hard feelings.

@Adel: I really gave you quite a bit of the benefit of the doubt on D1. I kind of followed your voting to a point then, but near the end of D2, you were so incredibly hard to read that I was having a really hard time seeing you as townie, even in spite of knowing your playstyle from Underground Mafia. As much as I think it was awful what you did to Opie, I have to admit that it got results. It definitely helped to put all of the scum into the spotlight in some way early. Actually, on D2, my attempt to try to turn the scum against each other by encouraging the scum and SK to counterclaiming to out each other was inspired by your playstyle. It's just too bad it didn't work -- though I thank you for trying to help me sell it. I don't think I could ever adopt your style of play, but I've learned something from you in both our games together and I appreciate how you are willing to sacrifice yourself to out scum. I also thank you for sticking up for me on D1 before we got to suspecting each other later on. I think if you had attacked me D1 while the suspicion was on me, I might not have been so calm. Honestly, I was thinking about leaving the game because I was confused early in the day and I thought I was hurting the town, but your support helped me stick with it.

@Pickemgenius: You got killed before I could interact much with you, but I also appreciate your support for me on D1 also.

@Oman: Your attempt to draw the NK was admirable, but the execution, not so much. I kind of feel bad that we rode you really hard too, but I really was having a hard time seeing you as town after the very beginning of D1. At least you tried to do the right thing in the end. Honestly, I think if you had continued playing more like you did earlier on D1, you would have been a much bigger asset to the town.

@Xylthixlm, ChaosOmega, Matt_S: Thanks for making this a fun game. I felt a little bad for you, as I think the deck really was stacked against you due to bad luck on the role draw. You really drew a tough set of townies to try to beat. I congratulate Matt_S for making it to the endgame against a very strong town. I myself didn't get fully committed to Matt until I did a complete reread knowing most of the players' alignments. I think you did a decent job of laying low without making it extremely obvious at the time. I was on to you here and there, but I was never sure enough to pull the trigger until the very end.

@Opie: I feel bad for what happened to you, but you did not die in vain. Your calm and dignified manner on the way to an awful lynch did let a lot of the town see the truth about you, and that got people on to the right track early. Letting the other townies figure out you were town and get their opinions on record BEFORE your alignment was revealed was a key component in the victory, I feel. You definitely deserve your share of the victory.

@Patrick: I don't blame you at all for vigging Guardian1. I definitely would have done the same thing in your shoes. At least I think you got rid of someone who could have been a distraction on later days. And your Vig claim was perfectly timed. Once you did that, everything fell into place for me. And your scumhunting was top-notch as well. I understand your paranoia. I had pretty much cleared you from the D4 dawn post and a lack of counterclaim from your Vig claim, but there was this creepy feeling in the back of my brain that Erg0-scum was sitting at his keyboard laughing at how he had manipulated all of us suckers into killing each other. It wasn't just that I chose not to attack Erg0 -- I really did not have anything in the way of ammunition to throw at him. I was hoping beyond hope that Matt came up scum, as I knew we'd lose if he didn't. Though I did get to sneak in a post just before Vollkan locked the thread for the final death scene (doing that with Vollkan watching the thread like a hawk was not easy) to try to convince you I was town -- I was hoping you'd figure that if I were a roleblocker, I would have had no reason to lie at that point, and if I were a goon, I would have killed you the night before. Thankfully, it never came to that.

@Incognito: I admire your tenacity in investigating suspects and not being afraid to stand so firmly behind your cases. What you did, you did with gusto. I aspire to integrate some elements of your playstyle and Vollkan's into my own.

@Erg0: It still amazes me just how quickly you caught on to the scum on D1. And it wasn't just some lucky guess -- you followed the trail of clues and latched on to two of the scum through excellent logic and deduction. Compared my logic and way of thinking to your own was a great honor, considering how well you played this game. Gun to my head, if I were forced to pick an MVP for this game, and I'd be very reluctant to, given how many townies played well, I'd have to give it to you. Why the scum didn't off you sooner, I have no idea.

Just like my first game, I learned quite a bit about the more subtle points of Mafia strategy in this game. It was certainly a learning experience that I think will make me a stronger player in the future. Frankly, I'm just in awe of how some of you can play such a strong game here and participate in multiple other games at the same time. It was a fantastic experience for me to play with so many seasoned veterans in this game, and for a lot of the game, it took all of my brainpower and time just to try and keep up. I really did get overwhelmed at certain points during the game, and it's amazing to me that some of you did not. I was really freaking out after such an awful D1, but that only made the three consecutive scum lynches for the win that much more sweet.

Thank you to Vollkan for an excelling modding job, and to all of you for making the game fun. I look forward to testing myself against all of you again sometime. Thanks to the scum for being good sports, and congratulations to the town for a well-deserved win!

[Jitsu]

I must say that I'm kinda glad I was NK-ed when I was. If I was placed in Patrick's shoes trying to decide between Jitsu and Matt_S, I would have been pretty torn. I was sold on Erg0 being town pretty much the whole game but Jitsu and Matt_S gave me mixed feelings. So very well done job by the end-game crew of Patrick, Erg0, and Jitsu of analyzing the entire thread and making a good logical decision.

Thanks. I was a bit distraught because I got off to a slow start. I think I did better the end of D1 and into the middle of D2, but I was definitely part of the clueless vanilla crew with you. I think I did get sidetracked trying to figure Adel out and I got a bit too obsessed trying to figure out where the second kill was coming from -- overanalyzing caused me to stumble around for a while thinking there was an SK. Once Patrick claimed, my confusion pretty much dissipated.

I had a much easier decision at endgame than Erg0 and Patrick did, for sure, but I did do my homework. I'd like to think my endgame analysis and conclusions helped the town some, but in reality, I fear it would all have been for naught had Patrick and Erg0 not done the same.

I did get really frustrated several times when my honest attempts to be a good townie were misinterpreted, and in several cases, my inexperience almost hurt the town. But being that this was only my second game ever, I guess I shouldn't be too hard on myself. I don't think I did quite as well here as in Underground Mafia, but this game was more difficult for me in a number of ways. I'm just glad that I was able to play well enough to avoid being lynched.

[Jitsu]

I'll say this too: with Erg0, Patrick, and Incognito around, it was pretty damn hard to look really townie, even though I was trying my best. Trying to look innocent when you're being compared against the likes of Mother Theresa, Mahatma Gandhi, and the Dalai Lama was a challenge, to say the least.

I suppose though that being mistaken for a non-obvious scum is somewhat of a compliment in itself.

[Patrick]

Thanks for your kind comments Jitsu. I wasn't really that suspicious of your play when choosing on day 4, it was more just that there was no interaction with Xylthixlm that meant I could rule it out, and Xylthixlm pretty much shrugged you off all game, in a way you sometimes see scum ignoring their partners. I eventually concluded Matt's interaction with Xylthixlm was even more scumlike, and it reminded me strongly of how I treated a less experienced scumbuddy last time I was scum. It was also difficult to see you as scum given your attention to detail and consistently high level of analysis -- usually when a scum puts out that much content, I'd expect to see some amount of craplogic or manipulation or spin or something, but I wasn't really seeing it in your case (in contrast to the posts of dead scum). On day 4, I was looking out for which of the three of you would try to just tack on extra suspicion to the other two as much as possible, because I suspected a mafia goon would have to play that way, and Matt_S was the one that stuck out to me as doing that.

Other random facts: When Jitsu suggested some additional benefit to massclaiming but wasn't willing to say what it was, I half wondered if he was alluding to something in the vanilla townie PM that could help clear a townie or two (without realising it would be unethical of course).

On night 3 I expected the game to end with some duel between me and Oman. I really thought his two obviously fakeclaims were just a humorous way of him giving up and saying that the town had won. I was stunned when I saw the day 4 scene, and for a few minutes I seriously wondered if vollkan was just playing an April Fool's joke on us. Oman just seemed to fit into the mafia group so perfectly; in retrospect, I suppose Xyl was trying to connect himself to Oman. It so, it worked.

[Xylthixlm]

I wasn't really that suspicious of your play when choosing on day 4, it was more just that there was no interaction with Xylthixlm that meant I could rule it out, and Xylthixlm pretty much shrugged you off all game, in a way you sometimes see scum ignoring their partners.

That was somewhat deliberate.

I eventually concluded Matt's interaction with Xylthixlm was even more scumlike, and it reminded me strongly of how I treated a less experienced scumbuddy last time I was scum.

I'm curious which of us you think was the more experienced one.

On night 3 I expected the game to end with some duel between me and Oman. I really thought his two obviously fakeclaims were just a humorous way of him giving up and saying that the town had won. I was stunned when I saw the day 4 scene, and for a few minutes I seriously wondered if vollkan was just playing an April Fool's joke on us. Oman just seemed to fit into the mafia group so perfectly; in retrospect, I suppose Xyl was trying to connect himself to Oman. It so, it worked.

It would have worked, too, if it weren't for you meddling vig!

[Jitsu]

I wasn't really that suspicious of your play when choosing on day 4, it was more just that there was no interaction with Xylthixlm that meant I could rule it out, and Xylthixlm pretty much shrugged you off all game, in a way you sometimes see scum ignoring their partners.

That was somewhat deliberate.

@Patrick: I know. No hard feelings. I would not have wanted to be in your position, that's for sure.

@Xylthixlm: Really? You intentionally ignored me to try to throw suspicion on me? I would have thought you might have tried to go after me because I'm a newbie.

It would have worked, too, if it weren't for you meddling vig!

ZOMG, I love Scooby Doo.

[Jitsu]

Other random facts: When Jitsu suggested some additional benefit to massclaiming but wasn't willing to say what it was, I half wondered if he was alluding to something in the vanilla townie PM that could help clear a townie or two (without realising it would be unethical of course).

I did make an honest mistake in Underground Mafia by mentioning an ongoing game, but I knew not to allude to something in a PM (save for role reveal in general terms). I'd read some of the Discussion threads about grammar lynches and why Mods post the vanilla townie role PMs in the first post.

I'm interesting in modding sometime. I've been a D&D DM for a long time, and I like moderating just as much as playing.

[Patrick]

I'm curious which of us you think was the more experienced one.

I meant you as the experienced one, due to all the chat games you've played. I think maybe you suffered from some Stoofer's syndrome on day 1, which means as scum your buddy looks scummier to you than they actually are, and you feel almost compelled to distance/bus them. Then later, you started ignoring him, even when he had posted some things on day 2 which looked attackable, and which I thought you'd have attacked if he'd been town. I acted in the same way towards a buddy last time I was scum.

I'm interesting in modding sometime. I've been a D&D DM for a long time, and I like moderating just as much as playing.

It's fun. If you need someone to look over the setup, feel free to come to me.

[Adel]

I'm reading the last few pages now, glad you guys won it for us!

[Jitsu]

It's fun. If you need someone to look over the setup, feel free to come to me.

Thank you very much -- I will.