micro 858: silver 3 (ended game)

[Ankamius]

I have never once seen someone in this situation as town try to dissect a solve with this many people when there literally are not enough scum to cover all the slots.

Never.
Once.

[Ankamius]

"hey we have three confirmed towns"

"we should massclaim"
vs
"is the solve valid?"

[Draco Lucky]

literally does not matter

Jungle confirming that there are two conftown slots when there's only one scum means that the PoE is in three people, including themselves.

I couldn't know any of that to be true without the claims lol. And frankly, you couldn't have assessed whether gem was likely clear without them claiming, either

[Draco Lucky]

I have never once seen someone in this situation as town try to dissect a solve with this many people when there literally are not enough scum to cover all the slots.

Never.
Once.

First, you did this game.

and, you should be doing this as town because, like this game showed, my instincts were correct. This is like arguing that a town!venge is anti-town, lol

[Ankamius]

Draco why did you watch Gemini?

[Ankamius]

literally does not matter

Jungle confirming that there are two conftown slots when there's only one scum means that the PoE is in three people, including themselves.

I couldn't know any of that to be true without the claims lol.

And frankly, you couldn't have assessed whether gem was likely clear without them claiming, either

[Ankamius]

I couldn't know any of that to be true without the claims lol.

[Ankamius]

AND you needed my role in order to know how to play N2

and it's no surprise that the game ended up in exactly the only way that you could have any chance of winning

lol I'm pretty sure everyone had already at least softed by the time I put the breaks on Vedith's lynch. but it does bring up that I harped on everyone to full claim for a WEEK while people get annoyed at me for it! That is not my scum move. That's my, I need more information to solve this game move

VEDITH

This is the decisive evidence that Draco Lucky is scum.

look back at the d2 situation

1. Jungle Medicine specifically said that I was conftown.
2. Draco Lucky TRACKED me to Jungle Medicine, so it's very reasonable to assume that I did something that confirmed myself as town to them.
3. In that same breath, Jungle also claimed that Gemini was conftown.
4. Later on, Gemini confirmed that Starwing was conftown.

The situation here from an outside PoV is this:

Jungle says I am conftown.
Jungle says that Gemini is conftown.
Gemini says that Starwing is conftown.

Then I come in and immediately push a solve that will sort ALL THREE slots in a single night.

Check what you did. You were

fine

with this solve.
Check was Starwing did. Starwing was

fine

with this solve.

DRACO LUCKY WAS NOT FINE WITH THIS SOLVE.
HE SPECIFICALLY PUSHED FOR ME TO OUT MY ROLE.

Town do

NOT

need to know the specifics of my role in order to be reasonably sure that the solve is valid, just the knowledge that the solve itself is valid from that slot.

Jungle confirming that both myself and Gemini are both confirmed town LITERALLY SOLVES THE GAME.

That
Is
A
Scum
Approach
To
A
Solve.

I pushed for a mechanical town win once I knew for a fact that Gemini was hardclaiming that Starwing was conftown and that the setup did not allow for Gemini to be a traitor.

Draco pushed for me to out my role.

Which is the more town-aligned approach to the game?

[Ankamius]

scum-me has a huge advantage against Jungle in this scenario where I have to 1v1 Jungle instead of Draco

WHY DO I NOT PUSH DOWN DRACO WHEN I HAD THE ADVANTAGE

[StarwingBeauvoi]

One must rely on one's brain to remember games, not just on the fact that one thought they were subscribed. I didn't know that it was possible to entirely forget a game, but it must be. Now I will read.

[StarwingBeauvoi]

As I read:

Gemini's death was not surprising. Conf town PR. Ank was a PR but not conf town.
Gemini should have blocked Vedith. Thus Vedith is close to conf town.
Jungle is cleared by the Draco Ank 1v1. One of them must be lying. Town would not lie.

I wish I knew precisely what the Brittany Spears check would do.

Ank really being able to detect killing ability is strange for scum. But it's a good argument about how much power town and scum would have.
Ank does seem to be trying too hard with her arguments.

Yet I understand why Ank didn't want to say too much yesterday. There were times I thought it might advantage scum to say what I was thinking. But not because it was solved. It wasn't until partway through the day that Ank should have had enough to potentially solve it. Or know that solving was inevitable if we weren't stupid.
[quote="In post 1269, Ankamius"}
I switched to scumreading Jungle on a dime because the sudden burst of effort looked town enough and it made me realize that jungle had said very little despite a reasonably strong start to day 2 (and even later said that they weren't following along with the game when I posted in there that I was suspecting gemini of being a traitor)

I thought at that point the game was an auto-win and I could easily see Jungle realizing the game was an auto-win and just giving up, so I decided that lynching them was the better choice in case it was that specific scenario.[/quote]
I did decide the same. I never had a very strong town read on Jungle, bu it was the burst of activity that made him look like a better lynch.

[StarwingBeauvoi]

The mechanical balance part of each side are hard too choose between. I am stuck.

only scum!you could ever stay latched onto this lol

If the venge is anti town because it might hit town

then lynching is anti town because it might hit town

both cause a flip directed by town (though the venge 100% by town)

but the venge also takes away a scum night kill

it's definitely not anti-town

and so that people don't get lost as to why it matters, scum need ank's kill detector role to have counter play. They were supposed to try and identify and night kill the venge rather than mislynch them

How does the venge take away a scum nk?
Why would the scum know to look for a venge?

[StarwingBeauvoi]

btw

vedith
starwing

really just one thing that should heavily cement why I'm the town half of this exchange

...why would I set up a 1v1 against draco lucky, the slot that had just put in a lot of effort right before I made that night action order
...instead of lynching draco when there was a lot of support there and instead dragging the lynch over to jungle... you know, the slot that wasn't even paying any attention to the thread?

which endgame do you believe I would willingly go for?

this is especially to YOU Vedith, you just saw my scumgame not too long ago and saw exactly the type of thought processes I have when trying to win the game as scum.

I specifically plan these things out to give myself the best odds in MyLo/LyLo so that I don't have to rely as much on my less strong 1v1ing skills to win the game

Hmm.

idk u2

I very strongly doubt that RC wasn't coaching you through some of this theatre

it's not exactly a secret that most of the site is horrendous at theatre and RC is one of the few scum players that aren't.

RC is good at coaching.

-The setup doesn't make sense without some way for scum to counter the venge and that's ank

this is a nonissue, vedith

the vengekill is in the setup specifically to nerf my role so that I don't have a full what... 30-40% chance of getting a confirmed guilty immediately n1?

And that's why the kill detecting makes more sense for town. False guilty for town as opposed to a way for scum to find a vengeful they don't know about.

I feel like you're my parents arguing and I'm just a chess piece.

Can I be a chess piece too?

you're trying to make the case that you could have lynched me to show that you wouldn't have kept me around for mylo, but the truth of the matter is that I wasn't the likely lynch and you didn't give a hoot where the lynch was because you thought you were considered lock!town

True, Draco wasn't the likely lynch.

[StarwingBeauvoi]

Spoiler:

AND you needed my role in order to know how to play N2

and it's no surprise that the game ended up in exactly the only way that you could have any chance of winning

lol I'm pretty sure everyone had already at least softed by the time I put the breaks on Vedith's lynch. but it does bring up that I harped on everyone to full claim for a WEEK while people get annoyed at me for it! That is not my scum move. That's my, I need more information to solve this game move

VEDITH

This is the decisive evidence that Draco Lucky is scum.

look back at the d2 situation

1. Jungle Medicine specifically said that I was conftown.
2. Draco Lucky TRACKED me to Jungle Medicine, so it's very reasonable to assume that I did something that confirmed myself as town to them.
3. In that same breath, Jungle also claimed that Gemini was conftown.
4. Later on, Gemini confirmed that Starwing was conftown.

The situation here from an outside PoV is this:

Jungle says I am conftown.
Jungle says that Gemini is conftown.
Gemini says that Starwing is conftown.

Then I come in and immediately push a solve that will sort ALL THREE slots in a single night.

Check what you did. You were

fine

with this solve.
Check was Starwing did. Starwing was

fine

with this solve.

DRACO LUCKY WAS NOT FINE WITH THIS SOLVE.
HE SPECIFICALLY PUSHED FOR ME TO OUT MY ROLE.

Town do

NOT

need to know the specifics of my role in order to be reasonably sure that the solve is valid, just the knowledge that the solve itself is valid from that slot.

Jungle confirming that both myself and Gemini are both confirmed town LITERALLY SOLVES THE GAME.

That
Is
A
Scum
Approach
To
A
Solve.

I pushed for a mechanical town win once I knew for a fact that Gemini was hardclaiming that Starwing was conftown and that the setup did not allow for Gemini to be a traitor.

Draco pushed for me to out my role.

Which is the more town-aligned approach to the game?

I no longer am sure what Ank's solve was. Also I only trusted the solve because I assumed town!Jungle would not lie about Ank being town. And even then I want to have assurance of jungle being town.
It makes sense for Draco to be more skeptical.

Town!Draco would know that lynch Vedith then lynch him only works if Vedith is scum, and that Vedith really didn't sound like scum since he was willing to be lynched. He would want to know the unknowns. And Ank was that unknown. It doesn't mean Draco is town, but that was not a scummy thing for him to have pressed for.

literally does not matter

Jungle confirming that there are two conftown slots when there's only one scum means that the PoE is in three people, including themselves.

literally does not matter

Jungle confirming that there are two conftown slots when there's only one scum means that the PoE is in three people, including themselves.

I couldn't know any of that to be true without the claims lol. And frankly, you couldn't have assessed whether gem was likely clear without them claiming, either

The claims were a good thing.

[Draco Lucky]

Draco why did you watch Gemini?

she was confirmed and a pr. I didn't think about it very long, i expected either a clear on me or a guilty on vedith

[Draco Lucky]

The mechanical balance part of each side are hard too choose between. I am stuck.

only scum!you could ever stay latched onto this lol

If the venge is anti town because it might hit town

then lynching is anti town because it might hit town

both cause a flip directed by town (though the venge 100% by town)

but the venge also takes away a scum night kill

it's definitely not anti-town

and so that people don't get lost as to why it matters, scum need ank's kill detector role to have counter play. They were supposed to try and identify and night kill the venge rather than mislynch them

How does the venge take away a scum nk?
Why would the scum know to look for a venge?

It takes away a scum nk in the same way that it takes away a lynch. Instead of going 9->7->5->3 this game went 9->6->4 which cuts out a lynch and an nk
Well they got an ability that checks if people have the ability to kill so that would be a clue. Whether they pick up on that or not, it's pro-town if the venge is lynched, right? they'd want to nk there instead and that's where the role comes in

[Draco Lucky]

And that's why the kill detecting makes more sense for town. False guilty for town as opposed to a way for scum to find a vengeful they don't know about.

like, I hate this setup spec. But they need that counter play to reduce the swing.

Think of it the other way. Let's say ank is town and I'm scum, and let's say the venge had hit Vedith instead of RC. Given the checks, which wouldn't be great because no guilties,

Town would enter day 2 with the ability to confirm Gemini, You, and use the neighborhood to help deduce JM's alignment.

That would leave town with a lynch pool of 3, JM + RC + me. All town has to do is find town JM and they have the game solved.
That doesn't make any sense in a scenario where town mislynched a pr D1 and that PR missed his vengeshot, and no investigatives hit a guilty. That's a scenario where scum should be winning, not on the verge of being auto'd.

[Ankamius]

True, Draco wasn't the likely lynch.

Why are people forgetting that draco literally was inches from death yesterday and only didn't die because I got cold feet

Are people even reading the same game I am?

[Ankamius]

And that's why the kill detecting makes more sense for town. False guilty for town as opposed to a way for scum to find a vengeful they don't know about.

like, I hate this setup spec. But they need that counter play to reduce the swing.

Think of it the other way. Let's say ank is town and I'm scum, and let's say the venge had hit Vedith instead of RC. Given the checks, which wouldn't be great because no guilties,

Town would enter day 2 with the ability to confirm Gemini, You, and use the neighborhood to help deduce JM's alignment.

That would leave town with a lynch pool of 3, JM + RC + me. All town has to do is find town JM and they have the game solved.
That doesn't make any sense in a scenario where town mislynched a pr D1 and that PR missed his vengeshot, and no investigatives hit a guilty. That's a scenario where scum should be winning, not on the verge of being auto'd.

The advantage for scum here is that two scum PRs is really hard to wrap your heads around as town.

It took a bit for people to accept it this game.

[Ankamius]

Alright well

Sorry for being so much of a fuckup that I can't even realize that maybe to avoid scum outcharismaing me in lylo that I should've just gone for the play I suggested above since I'm realizing all over again that I've still never once won a single 3p or 4p game in my entire career on this site

This game is just reminding me again of the game one conftown scumread me for not writing any walls and the other for not realizing that claiming a role that is confirmed town in the setup is not the same thing as becoming obvtown by play despite me explaining it twice

I'm not dealing with it anymore, feel free to blame the inevitable loss on me because really the game would've been a town stomp if I hadn't fallen into the trap of thinking jungles absense was AI and just lynched the obvscum like I was going to yesterday

I'm prodging until the game is over, I've said everything I really need to for why Draco is scum here via setup, via play, and via associatives with the RC slot. I've said everything I really need to for why this play is hideously stupid for me to make as scum when I have the game in my hands, why I can't be scum with RC, and why my role makes far more sense as town

If that's not enough, then town didn't have a chance in this lylo in the first place and I'm wasting my time

[StarwingBeauvoi]

And that's why the kill detecting makes more sense for town. False guilty for town as opposed to a way for scum to find a vengeful they don't know about.

like, I hate this setup spec. But they need that counter play to reduce the swing.

Think of it the other way. Let's say ank is town and I'm scum, and let's say the venge had hit Vedith instead of RC. Given the checks, which wouldn't be great because no guilties,

Town would enter day 2 with the ability to confirm Gemini, You, and use the neighborhood to help deduce JM's alignment.

That would leave town with a lynch pool of 3, JM + RC + me. All town has to do is find town JM and they have the game solved.
That doesn't make any sense in a scenario where town mislynched a pr D1 and that PR missed his vengeshot, and no investigatives hit a guilty. That's a scenario where scum should be winning, not on the verge of being auto'd.

How do we confirm Gemini and I? Even if Gemini still targeted me, that would only conf town me absolutely to Gemini. There's a lot more room for faking with two scum. Ank's clear on Gemini would be similarly subject. I don't think it would be as great as you think it would Draco.
And the scum bus driver would have messed things around and though we would know it's existence, could we have accounted for it?

[StarwingBeauvoi]

@Ank

please don't give up. Right now, I don't know who to believe. I'm in the contradictory state of wishing I could beleive both of you. But I want to win. And to do that I need to listen.
Don't keep arguing with Draco since it's doing no good. But please pay enough attention that if Vedith or I have questions, we'll be able to reach you.

[StarwingBeauvoi]

Vedith, we've got to work together on this. I think we should get Draco to do the Brittany Spears check. (It's a public reveal of role minus alignment in case you didn't read the rules.)

[Ankamius]

@Ank

please don't give up. Right now, I don't know who to believe. I'm in the contradictory state of wishing I could beleive both of you. But I want to win. And to do that I need to listen.
Don't keep arguing with Draco since it's doing no good. But please pay enough attention that if Vedith or I have questions, we'll be able to reach you.

fine

[Vedith]

Vedith, we've got to work together on this. I think we should get Draco to do the Brittany Spears check. (It's a public reveal of role minus alignment in case you didn't read the rules.)