Mini 1245: Trouble in Paradise (Over!)

[bionicchop2]

I'll take the blame on this one. I actually gut responded to Thor voting me and figured I had to cross-vote him. I didn't think of what would happen after I got lynched and that Whiskers / SA would be cleared since they could not be GF and a delayer. I should have attacked whiskers harder on the first lylo. A tip of the cap to Grimm who won the game for town. Without those reports breadcrumbed and him keeping himself hidden despite a guilty, this would have been a cakewalk win for town when it went to 5 players. Neither yabba nor I were suspects at that time.

[PeregrineV]

@yabba- I think if Grim had been left alive, things might have been different. If he would have claimed cop, does you or bionic counterclaim him? How do you address a cop counterclaim in lylo?

[bionicchop2]

If he would have claimed cop, does you or bionic counterclaim him? How do you address a cop counterclaim in lylo?

Best play is for both mafia to counterclaim him (unless their reports are worthless).

[PeregrineV]

I'm glad he mentioned it, because I was impressed with Grimmjow's play as cop. He had no suspicion on himself, and when he got the guilty he played it well to lynch Snarky without claiming.

Then, when it came to the 3:2 lylo, he stated it simply, so that his flip would give weight to the words.

My original setup in the game was actually

stolen

inspired by the Chuck theme game I played when I first started playing here.

There were neighbors who were also vigs. And a role (daydoc) that created a lot of second guessing on the part of town.

I wanted to do something similar, so used the one-shot poisoner as a kill delay to create the second guessing. My original setup had masons + a doc, but it was changed to neighbors, one of which was a doc, for balance purposes.

I liked the poisoner role for mafia since it would give them the ability to inject even more doubt and confusion since they would know what was going on while town wouldn't. They're night1 kill of the doc especially helped in them being able to manipulate the lack of a night2 kill if they wanted.

[PeregrineV]

If he would have claimed cop, does you or bionic counterclaim him? How do you address a cop counterclaim in lylo?

Best play is for both mafia to counterclaim him (unless their reports are worthless).

Which I think would have changed the whole endgame. So Grim dying, even though it sucked for him, got his reads validated inadvertently.

[PeregrineV]

@Snarky, Bionicchop, yabbaguy- any reason not to release the QT?

@AppleDash, MrBuddyLee- an reason not to release the QT?

If I don't get any objections, I'll add them to the role summary post.

[Grimmjow]

Much appreciated, Bionic and Peregrine. I feel this was the bet game I've played thus far, actually. Day 2 when Thor half claimed cop when he was pushing Yabba so hard, I wanted so badly to have Thor claim cop (if he was scum). Then I could tear into him and have a guilty on Snarky. Even if I died then, the other scum would have been easy to hunt down.

Even if someone had claimed cop, I did breadcrumb it way back when early in the game, and I could easily have pulled it up.

@Scum: Was the doc shot random, or did you suspect them to be a PR?

[Grimmjow]

Also, Peregrine, I loved your setup. This was fantastic. It had me guessing and on the edge of my set the entire game. I'd be happy to play in ANY of your mini games from now on.

[Grimmjow]

Also, Peregrine totally ganked the setup from my boyfriend

[bionicchop2]

I have no issue with releasing the QT.

[xRECKONERx]

Technically it wasn't MY setup... I just co-designed it with ooba then wound up modding the game after he flaked D1.

Also, this cop play from Grimm was OUTSTANDING. It almost makes me want to nominate him for Best Newbie but I'm biased.

[Rainbowdash]

Also, this cop play from Grimm was OUTSTANDING. It almost makes me want to nominate him for Best Newbie but I'm biased.

When not claiming D4? With two cleareds alive? Making it worst case a F5 with two cleared if everypony ignored GF chances? He didn't play bad but I think thats a major play error. Your claim gets bought in full and thats basically the game right there.

Not a fan of poisoner role but whatever there. Just seems far more out there than what I want to see when I play a normal, which I would be absolutely thrilled to suddenly be capped at the 15 or so standard standard roles. Skimmed along with the game throughout so really can't say all that much about what went down in the end. Loved the way Whiskers chose to play this though, probably the only reason I kept reading more than the flips at any point.

For end thing, its not "cheap" or anything. I personally think as long as it doesn't effect something outside of the game do whatever you want. If he got some legal document or something signed that he would do that then yes that steps over the line, but really, in a game of

lying

, nopony should be believing that kind of stuff.

I have no issue with QT released, but ask the others first for sure.

[Thor665]

"I agree with Lee. In fact, Thor665 is reminding me of how Lee plays. Curious. "

That won the Dead QT for me - I'd like to have my reads be a bit more accurate like Lee's but, hey, I'll take what I can get.

@MBL - I really did try to go mellow and not condescending with my first batch of interactions - if you look at all the early talk before the votes came out I'm spending most of it trying to walk SA to my way of thinking. I started to get more...intense as the lylo dragged on and I realized the softer sell wasn't working. I'd asked him repeatedly to just please explain what bionic's plan was and his answer was to ignore me or to say "cause confusion" and eventually I just went into full bore mini-SDC mode to try and shove through the case. Maybe not the best play, but that was my perception of the flow and the choices I made.

I will say in the spirit of cheating - I contemplated trying to argue that I was obv. town because Whiskers showed up and joked with me from beyond death's door, and I doubted that was happening if I was scum who'd just murdered her and was trying to dance into a win. But I did think that was an inappropriate move.

I thought I had a really, really lazy scumhunting style, and I'm surprised I didn't get drilled on that more aggressively.

There was fair juice for you Day 2, that wasn't a tiny wagon. It's just after the flip and I reversed my read on you that you somehow transitioned to obv. lazy town for most people.

You not recalling the RBer does help explain the bus a little better, though I think overall that double bus worked out nicer for you guys than a RBer would have. I do agree that the bionic SK claim left you some interestingly narrow option fields to play with, as I said, in retrospect you put together a very solid lylo - let's be frank, I was wearing the target basically all day, and I think if I hadn't gone so baw-y that he totally would have lynched me over that RBer defense without ever looking at any part of the meta you were citing - it was very well played.

[yabbaguy]

Did SA buy it or did he like claim some technicality or what is - I mean... you... it. SA still needs to explain what the fuck, why the fuck, how the fuck he almost fucked up the fucking game and then fucking swapped at the last fucking second, hence fucking me over.

Anywho.

The fact is Thor, you wanted that plea to cause SA to pay attention look at the logic THEN swap, not pay attention, freak out, then swap. So you're really not at fault here.

I'm still amazed LyLo lasted that long, I mean, I guess I was naive not to expect SA to want to think more, but I really thought he was going taking a slow walk into the valley of unhappiness, where I've been many a time. I have an absolutely abysmal W-L record in LyLo, so the fact that he got it right by a fluke is frustrating, to say the least.

@PV: Can you explain for me why Unvote, Vote has any merit as a rule? Otherwise, I think your modding was fine, but I don't get that. Also, waiting on Snarky to accept - either that or post it 24 hours after the game over post or something like that.

[Sleepless Assassin]

meh. i have no issue with how thor pulled it out. i mean, who would actually believe someone who says "herp derp, i'll buy you a car," on the interweb. all it was is a giant AtE as far as i can tell, and that usually makes people think you are scum, but it is an effective and accepted method of discussion as far as i can tell. i'm unfamiliar with the site SA is referencing, but i don't see why giant AtE would be banned. there is no rule in mafia that one has to tell the truth. no asterisk here. i mean, i get why yabba's pissed, but he should realize that the sk claim should have sealed this game. SA had no business taking that much time and responding to a giant AtE to win this game. a little common sense would have taken care of it right away.

SA: you know i love ya. good game. patience is king.

This is exactly it though. Who would really send large sums of cash and car keys to someone over a game on the internet? No one. But mafia is a game based on the honor system. Ok, this is more true on Something Awful than on mafiascum, which is why I had to think about it. But the same thing applies. If after the game he went lol I lied, it would have been kind of a dick move in a way that I don't think Thor would do it. There's a reason why it (as well as truth or dare, etc) is banned on SA. It can be telling to the point of game breaking, like it was here. Yabba had me fooled. As I said for a while, yabba and thor BOTH looked town on that last day. The fact that scum lost on a toxx clause actually does kind of irritate me. I mean, we won, which is cool and all. But it feels kind of like a hollow victory.

As for the Thor/Bio LYLO SK thing, I explained that. Thor was left with only bio as a voting option and bio had to vote thor because it's what he'd do as town. The rest just kind of played out. I really didn't think it was the "master scheme" that Thor appeared to be trying to paint it as.

I think if I mod any games in the future, I'll be banning toxx clauses just on the off chance we see it again, but it isn't really popular on mafiascum as a strategy. It's more the AtE frustration which has the same effect. I dunno, mafiascum just doesn't see it most of the time, so it's kind of weird to see it in this game.

Grimm's cop play seemed fine to me. The snarky result was obvious after he flipped cop. I probably would have claimed at that point, but the fact that he didn't need to and was able to get more results was nice. The breadcrumb was very obvious and a great play considering any smart town goes back and looks for that after a flip. He knew we were about to go to night and he could die, so he crumbed his results at the perfect time. It would have sucked if he was NK'd sooner though. And if he'd survived that night, I'm not sure claiming cop would have worked out in LYLO. It, like other things in this game, seemed to happen perfectly for town.

[Whiskers]

Why couldn't Thor have voted me? Or you? Or Yabbaguy?

Bio claims SK.
Bio says, "Oh, there

must

be a Godfather."
Thor says, "Oh, lol, you're right, lynch SA."

I don't get it.

[Whiskers]

Also, you don't see "toxx" around MS a lot because it's "using outside influences" and it's illegal. Although, now that I think about it, that's more like, "Vote the other guy and I'll wire you 100 $," or, "If you vote me and I'm town, you have to give me 100$," not, "If I flip scum, I'll send you 100$."

Normally it's, "I'll bribe you for the win." or "You will be penalized for the loss."
In this case it was, "Do what you think. But I am not lying; look at how much I am willing to risk to back up my truth."

So I guess that's okay.

[Sleepless Assassin]

You and I were cop cleared. If we had a GF, we were waiting until the next day to worry about it. He'd been calling yabba town, so he'd have a huge turn around to explain. After he already flipped his opinion on yabba from day 1 to day 2, I don't think doing it again would have gone over very well. That only leaves Bio.

When someone claims SK, it's very rare that proper play is to leave them alive. Had I not caught his lie about his kills, I probably would have wanted him lynched anyway. If we have two kills going through in LYLO, eliminate one.

And you never go for a cop clear who may be a GF when you believe another scum to be out there (and if they aren't, it isn't even LYLO).

And no, it's not a "bribe", but it's still something that would require him to go to EXTREME LENGTHS if he was scum. He wouldn't do that to himself. And he didn't even say anything about if he's lynched. It was "whether you lynch me or not, if I'm scum, I'll do this", which is textbook toxx. If you don't see how telling that is, I don't even know what to say.

[Thor665]

And you never go for a cop clear who may be a GF when you believe another scum to be out there (and if they aren't, it isn't even LYLO).

Ask Empking about me and this - his GF reign came to end the day prior to lylo

I don't get that "couldn't vote yabba" angle. I'd been calling bionic town for longer than yabba, and had a more solid read there as I hadn't got a scum vibe until that very day. I easily could have been on yabba in the exact same way. What am I missing there?

[Sleepless Assassin]

Ok

[Grimmjow]

I have to admit, I was glad when Thor started calling out "misreps" on Snarky. That's what made me sure that I wasn't going to be NK'd earlier. Even when Snarky flipped scum, it looked as though I was bussing slightly. I purposefully walked the line of "not obvious town" because it made me less likely to get NK'd. I crumbed when I did because I figured I was going to die then, and on top of that, I had cleared all but 3 players, leaving 2 scum and 1 town between them. It made it hella easier for the rest of the town to hunt the last two.

I have to admit, thought, Whisker's play kinda shocked me at the end. The whole game she was playing very VI, but at the end of D5, it was pretty obvious she had been paying attention.

[Whiskers]

As Rainbowdash put it, "Whiskers is a wildcard."

[PeregrineV]

I have to admit, I was glad when Thor started calling out "misreps" on Snarky. That's what made me sure that I wasn't going to be NK'd earlier. Even when Snarky flipped scum, it looked as though I was bussing slightly. I purposefully walked the line of "not obvious town" because it made me less likely to get NK'd. I crumbed when I did because I figured I was going to die then, and on top of that, I had cleared all but 3 players, leaving 2 scum and 1 town between them. It made it hella easier for the rest of the town to hunt the last two.

I have to admit, thought, Whisker's play kinda shocked me at the end. The whole game she was playing very VI, but at the end of D5, it was pretty obvious she had been paying attention.

@Thor- Did you take Grimm's final reads at face value? If you did, then since you knew you were town, you knew yabba and bionic were the last scum. Yet you never mention it. just wondering how you used that info?

@yabba- when I have time I'll give a long answer for you.

[xRECKONERx]

When not claiming D4? With two cleareds alive? Making it worst case a F5 with two cleared if everypony ignored GF chances? He didn't play bad but I think thats a major play error. Your claim gets bought in full and thats basically the game right there.

Except that by softclaiming his results, he had an insurance policy in place. Had he outright claimed, it would've guaranteed a nightkill on his slot. By not claiming, he still had two innocents with a chance of catching a guilty party that night as well.

Oh and can I just outright say this fucking trend of MLP speak and Whiskers typing in all pink letters the whole game makes me want to just nuke the entire planet and start over?

[Thor665]

@Thor- Did you take Grimm's final reads at face value? If you did, then since you knew you were town, you knew yabba and bionic were the last scum. Yet you never mention it. just wondering how you used that info?

I was sure they were crumbs, I was 100% on bionic and at about...I dunno, some lesser percentage on yabba. I was pretty sure Whiskers and SA were town (SA might have been GF who wanted to bring up the crumbs, Whiskers was more certain, especially after the way she moved on bionic), but will admit I kept toying with GF paranoia up until SA pointed out the obvious angle of GF/Delayer as a wtf PR, which totally sold me.

All I really knew going into the final day was I suspected it was yabba and I thought it was a clear day for the two of them to cross vote and leave the situation to my choice as I was obv. town after the SK move. Then SA kind of went on a side journey from that expectation, but I can't say that destroyed plans, it just meant I was on defensive as opposed to offensive play for the day.

I usually don't plan too much anyway, so no worries