Mini 816: Revenge of the Monkey(GAME OVER!)

[charlatan]

So dramonic, you're also voting based on a theory disagreement?

[dramonic]

no, I'm voting because Charter is writing messages to aliens with his burning grass.

Honestly, I currently have no other good target for my vote, so I'd rather it stays on a player I find anti-town. I could put it on SC too, but Charter is more anti-town to me.

I don't want him lynched, but pressure is always a good thing. I'll unvote if we get too close to lynching.

[charlatan]

I don't want him lynched, but pressure is always a good thing. I'll unvote if we get too close to lynching.

This sentence renders your vote useless for pressure purposes, doesn't it? Why should he feel any heat now?

Maybe it's because I'm sleepy, but I'm having trouble understanding where you're coming from. On one hand, you consider it anti-town to be in favor of bandwagoning in the RVS as a scumhunting tool (strike against Charter), and on the other hand...what? All The Coug has really done so far is tunnel on Charter for disagreeing on that point, and you're voting him for the same reason. It's pretty scummy to give a reason to be voting one guy and then also repeatedly tack on "oh yeah, the guy who's attacking him is suspicious, too" without explaining why.

[dramonic]

This sentence renders your vote useless for pressure purposes, doesn't it? Why should he feel any heat now?

... XD


Also, I guess you are sleepy. I'm saying SC is scummy for wanting to lynch Charter on such weak ground.

[MonkeyMan576]

Regfan is being prodded for inactivity

[charlatan]

Also, I guess you are sleepy. I'm saying SC is scummy for wanting to lynch Charter on such weak ground.

You're voting Charter on the same grounds. You don't seem why this might be questionable?

[dramonic]

not really no.

However clearly there is something that I'm not getting across to you <<

[dramonic]

If it can help you understand better, I think they are BOTH being anti-town and they BOTH warrant a lynch. However my vote is staying on Charter because my opinion on bandwagons is the opposite of his.

[charlatan]

I think I understand perfectly well where you're coming from. I just think it's suspicious. We'll see if anyone agrees, I suppose. Basically, what you're telling me is that you think Cougar is anti-town for having the same opinion as you, but for being more sure of himself. Meanwhile, one of you (him) is actively scumhunting, while you cast a neutered vote and hedge your bets by casting some weak suspicion on both people most in the hotseat. Couple this with you making the very first FoS of the game on Cougar on weird grounds, and what it looks like is poor scum distancing.

[dramonic]

I think I understand perfectly well where you're coming from. I just think it's suspicious. We'll see if anyone agrees, I suppose. Basically, what you're telling me is that you think Cougar is anti-town for having the same opinion as you, but for being more sure of himself. Meanwhile, one of you (him) is actively scumhunting, while you cast a neutered vote and hedge your bets by casting some weak suspicion on both people most in the hotseat. Couple this with you making the very first FoS of the game on Cougar on weird grounds, and what it looks like is poor scum distancing.

Basically I'm telling you Cougar is anti-town for being extremist in his judgment. Meanwhile, he is tunneling on someone who could very well not be scum even though he's quite anti-town, while I cast a neutered vote and state my opinion that both should do something bout their opinion basing. Coupling this with me making the first FoS of the game on Cougar on grounds YOU deem weird, and what it looks like is a town player who think people are looking for crap where there is none

[charlatan]

Basically I'm telling you Cougar is anti-town for being extremist in his judgment. Meanwhile, he is tunneling on someone who could very well not be scum even though he's quite anti-town, while I cast a neutered vote and state my opinion that both should do something bout their opinion basing.

You're referring to your suspects using the phrase "anti-town" four or five times more than you actually are saying "scummy".

Do you have any actual opinions as to who might be scum? You'll call someone anti-town no problem, but then mention things like the fact that one of your top suspects could "very well not be scum", which is the kind of wiggling language most often employed by people trying to fly under the radar that still want to be able to profess having found someone suspicious after the fact.

You seem to be having trouble committing and you clearly don't "mean it" with your vote, which is especially intriguing given that you hounded people with RVS votes to change them a little bit ago.

Coupling this with me making the first FoS of the game on Cougar on grounds YOU deem weird, and what it looks like is a town player who think people are looking for crap where there is none

It seemed like a terribly artificial FoS, and it's not as if I'm going to go by

your

stated opinion of the scuminess of your actions.

[charlatan]

Oh, and while we're at it, can you explain how you went from this:

I don't want him lynched, but pressure is always a good thing. I'll unvote if we get too close to lynching.

to this...

I think they are BOTH being anti-town and they BOTH warrant a lynch

...in 8 posts?

[dramonic]

You're referring to your suspects using the phrase "anti-town" four or five times more than you actually are saying "scummy".

Do you have any actual opinions as to who might be scum?

ISO 14

You'll call someone anti-town no problem, but then mention things like the fact that one of your top suspects could "very well not be scum", which is the kind of wiggling language most often employed by people trying to fly under the radar that still want to be able to profess having found someone suspicious after the fact.

Just to make sure, you DO know there is a large difference between anti-town and pro-scum, right?

You seem to be having trouble committing and you clearly don't "mean it" with your vote, which is especially intriguing given that you hounded people with RVS votes to change them a little bit ago.

Is there any peculiar reason you want me to unvote so much? My vote is not random anymore and the same should be for the others. Also, I like my vote where it is and I don't have trouble comitting to this game.

It seemed like a terribly artificial FoS, and it's not as if I'm going to go by

your

stated opinion of the scuminess of your actions.

Indeed that would a ridiculous thing to do. However, if you're not willing to care about my answer you can just as well not ask questions.

Oh, and while we're at it, can you explain how you went from this:

I don't want him lynched, but pressure is always a good thing. I'll unvote if we get too close to lynching.

to this...

I think they are BOTH being anti-town and they BOTH warrant a lynch

...in 8 posts?

typo. I meant they both warrant a vote.

[StrangerCoug]

no, I'm voting because Charter is writing messages to aliens with his burning grass.

Honestly, I currently have no other good target for my vote, so I'd rather it stays on a player I find anti-town. I could put it on SC too, but Charter is more anti-town to me.

FoS: dramonic

. You find charter suspicious, yet you claim your vote reason is the same reason you random voted him and claim not to have a better person to be voting. If you're leaving it there as a serious vote for charter, why aren't you saying so?

[dramonic]

I've been misunderstood it seems. That second phrase understated the first one was a joke, sorry if it wasn't clear.

My vote on Charter IS a serious vote. A pressure vote and not a lynch one, but serious nonetheless

[StrangerCoug]

OK,

un-FoS

. I should not be viewing people as suspicious for having a better sense of humor than I do.

[MonkeyMan576]

Vote Count
With 12 playing, it requires 7 to lynch

Devestation(3) - Sajin, Ryan2754, charter
StrangerCoug(3) - charlatan, Scott Brosius, Konowa
Charter(2) - dramonic, StrangerCoug
Scott Brosius(1) - AdamNW
Snake(1) - Ryan2754
Regfan(1) - Snake
Ryan2754(1) - Regfan

[charlatan]

typo. I meant they both warrant a vote.

Fair enough, I suppose.

ISO 14

ISO 14 is a prime example of the wiggling-room language I'm talking about. I'll quote it here:

Right now, I can admit my scumdar is not giving me prime suspect. However, anti-town wise, you and SC are both "beeping"

See? You don't even commit to anything here. You say "eh....I don't know who's scummy, but you're kinda anti-town!"

Just to make sure, you DO know there is a large difference between anti-town and pro-scum, right?

Yes, that's precisely my point. I get town reads from people who are

scumhunting

, not people who are anti-town hunting. You're either incapable (or uninterested) in catching scum, but boy you'll definitely point out who's anti-town which, as it turns out, doesn't really help us. You're hesitant as can be to actually say someone might be scum. Hedging bets?

Is there any peculiar reason you want me to unvote so much? My vote is not random anymore and the same should be for the others. Also, I like my vote where it is and I don't have trouble comitting to this game.

I don't want you to unvote, nor did I say I do. I wasn't saying you were having trouble committing to this game, I'm saying you are having trouble committing to anything concrete within the game. You're casting a vote that doesn't count for anything (because no matter how many times you say it's a pressure vote, it definitely doesn't apply pressure), and you don't scumhunt, just refer to people as being anti-town but still quite likely innocent, which accomplishes nothing.

Indeed that would a ridiculous thing to do. However, if you're not willing to care about my answer you can just as well not ask questions.

I do care about your answer! I cherish your words. I jot them in a depressing little pink spiral notebook that has your name written all over it. I just won't be taking your word for it, that's all.

[dramonic]

ISO 14 is a prime example of the wiggling-room language I'm talking about. I'll quote it here:

Right now, I can admit my scumdar is not giving me prime suspect. However, anti-town wise, Cojin and SC are both "beeping"

See? You don't even commit to anything here. You say "eh....I don't know who's scummy, but you're kinda anti-town!"

For future reference, I replaced the you in my quote with Cojin, as that was who you refered to when it was done.

Your comparison is fairly accurate, although I'd remove the kinda. Also, it's only page 6, the day is young and we've been stalling in a useless debate for half those page, posting RVS and confirms for 2 and having this conversation for the last 1, it's really not a good scumhunting ground. I'll try to dig some stuff up through reanalysis later on (as in, not in the next 3 hours, but maybe in the next 24)

Just to make sure, you DO know there is a large difference between anti-town and pro-scum, right?

Yes, that's precisely my point. I get town reads from people who are

scumhunting

, not people who are anti-town hunting. You're either incapable (or uninterested) in catching scum, but boy you'll definitely point out who's anti-town which, as it turns out, doesn't really help us. You're hesitant as can be to actually say someone might be scum. Hedging bets?

If hedging bets = avoiding bets, then not really, my last read of the game simply wasn't fruitful at all. I'll go through it all again, as said earlier.

Also, yes I point a lot at anti-town behaviour in hope they correct it (which unfortunately they haven't)

Is there any peculiar reason you want me to unvote so much? My vote is not random anymore and the same should be for the others. Also, I like my vote where it is and I don't have trouble comitting to this game.

I don't want you to unvote, nor did I say I do. I wasn't saying you were having trouble committing to this game, I'm saying you are having trouble committing to anything concrete within the game. You're casting a vote that doesn't count for anything (because no matter how many times you say it's a pressure vote, it definitely doesn't apply pressure), and you don't scumhunt, just refer to people as being anti-town but still quite likely innocent, which accomplishes nothing.

Agh, guess I misunderstood you ><
I'm capable of admitting that my current stance isn't the most useful to the town, which I'll try to correct with the previously mentionned reread. I've been a bit tired lately, maybe a good reread will make me see things I missed last time.

But honestly, the others have to do something too. All we have right now are futile debates and the case on Dev which I find ridiculously weak(seriously, I still fail to see what is scummy bout him). I'll be paying special attention to the voters for scummy behaviours.

Indeed that would a ridiculous thing to do. However, if you're not willing to care about my answer you can just as well not ask questions.

I do care about your answer! I cherish your words. I jot them in a depressing little pink spiral notebook that has your name written all over it. I just won't be taking your word for it, that's all.

oooooh, sweeeeeet

[StrangerCoug]

ISO 14 is a prime example of the wiggling-room language I'm talking about. I'll quote it here:

Right now, I can admit my scumdar is not giving me prime suspect. However, anti-town wise, Cojin and SC are both "beeping"

See? You don't even commit to anything here. You say "eh....I don't know who's scummy, but you're kinda anti-town!"

For future reference, I replaced the you in my quote with Cojin, as that was who you refered to when it was done.

Who is Cojin?

[dramonic]

someone I'm voting in another game, oops

I meant Charter

[charter]

This is false. I've touched on the same Devestation-Scott Brosius connection that your posts imply to exist, and by saying I'm not fond of Konowa, I imply that I'm leaning scum on him. Me talking mostly about you ≠ me talking only about you.

No, as far as I can tell, the only time you've mentioned Devestation is your post 19 (which is after you made this post). The only thing you've said about Scott is what you keep attacking me over, and you'd be doing the same if it was someone besides Scott. You aren't trying to find out anybody's alignment, you're just trying to push a charter lynch.

Convince me that bandwagons are a good town weapon outside of the random voting stage and I'll consider unvoting you.

Go read some games and many times it's obvious when a townie is being wagoned. It's much more difficult to get a good wagon on scum when they don't slip up big. Two examples I can think of off the top of my head are these
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10933
I worked tirelessly to get Budja lynched day one, and most of the day it was me who had the most votes.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9776
Rival bandwagons day one, Llama figured out that people easily voted one person (a townie) while it was impossible to get others to vote for someone else (scum).
This is the last I'm going to defend myself on about mafia theory. Bandwagons are good, and if you all are blind then I'm not going to try and show you any more. It's simply ridiculous how much I'm being attacked over a bandwagon vote. NO ONE has ever attacked that much over something so trivial, which is why I think those that are doing it are scummy.

I think any person who thinks someone should be run up to L-2 or L-1 in the RVS, which you said you'd be happy with, should have a rope tied around his or her neck. I would have moved along had you been more thoughtful about the matter.

Did you miss the game where I did it as town and it cleared a townie? I don't see how you can consider it a scumtell.

I cant believe people are still voting Dev. Seriously, he's about as scummy as a can of tuna fihs (that's not scummy, by the way)

Unless you explain how, I'm just going to figure you're his scumbuddy. He's almost certainly scum.

dramonic wrote:
My vote is staying on Charter because I consider quick-wagons to be purely scum beneficial.

And do you have anything to back this up? I just showed a bunch of examples how they're beneficial for town, are you ignoring them?

Hitting scum on a quickwagon is purely luck. Yes, it's very tempting for scum to get that kind of easy lynches, but it's the initiation of the procedure that is the real scummy act. A lot of newb towns are tempted by quick lynches too, just because it's easy.

No, you're dodging providing evidence to your point. So I ask again, where is your evidence (or refuting of mine) that quick WAGONS are beneficial for town.

Right now, dramonic and StrangerCoug look an AWFUL lot like scumbuddies. I think Devastation is a third member of the scumteam as well. I still like my Devastation vote at this time.

[charter]

Will be V/LA from wednesday to next tuesday. Might have access, might not.

[dramonic]

1. You're saying I and SC are scum buddy because we don't disagree about bandwagons... Great reason to say someone is scum Sherlock.

2. You think Dev is scummy because you can't properly read what he says, clearly. I'll write it out for you, since it looks complicated -_-

Your two reasons are that he unvoted his RVS on Snake and that he told you to unvote. Neither of these reasons are scummy, keeping your RVS vote where it is when we're out of RVS without explaining it staying there IS scummy. Also, I guess for the bandwagon fan someone thinking early quick bandwagonning is bad would appear scum.

You sir, need to review your logical thinking and stop blaming everyone for your own logical fallacy.

I'm feeling much better with where my vote is now and I'll be more than happy to be part of your lynch wagon when that happens -_-

Confirm Vote: Charter

[StrangerCoug]

This is false. I've touched on the same Devestation-Scott Brosius connection that your posts imply to exist, and by saying I'm not fond of Konowa, I imply that I'm leaning scum on him. Me talking mostly about you ≠ me talking only about you.

No, as far as I can tell, the only time you've mentioned Devestation is your post 19 (which is after you made this post).

Lies. I mentioned or talked to Devestation in my post 9 in isolation, my post 14 in isolation, and my post 16 in isolation. I don't believe for an instant that you missed three times I did this.

The only thing you've said about Scott is what you keep attacking me over, and you'd be doing the same if it was someone besides Scott. You aren't trying to find out anybody's alignment, you're just trying to push a charter lynch.

More lies. I am not attacking Scott Brosius for voicing anti-town opinions about bandwagoning; I feel Scott Brosius may be connected to Devestation by the latter's worrying about the number of votes on the former. I also believe I implied that Scott Brosius was worrying about the number of votes on himself too in the very post I voted you.

Convince me that bandwagons are a good town weapon outside of the random voting stage and I'll consider unvoting you.

Go read some games and many times it's obvious when a townie is being wagoned. It's much more difficult to get a good wagon on scum when they don't slip up big. Two examples I can think of off the top of my head are these
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10933
I worked tirelessly to get Budja lynched day one, and most of the day it was me who had the most votes.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9776
Rival bandwagons day one, Llama figured out that people easily voted one person (a townie) while it was impossible to get others to vote for someone else (scum).

The bandwagon case is dismissed, but I'm still going to be voting you as you have proven to not have read/to have skimmed past my posts. I believe I've said more than once that you are my top suspect; however, there are other people I'm looking at too. That you are panicking by refusing to acknowledge my cases on other people is scummy.

I think any person who thinks someone should be run up to L-2 or L-1 in the RVS, which you said you'd be happy with, should have a rope tied around his or her neck. I would have moved along had you been more thoughtful about the matter.

Did you miss the game where I did it as town and it cleared a townie?

What game? I've played/modded too many games to have mental notes on everything that's happened in my games; that's why I comment on them after I'm done.