Mini 536: Heroes Smalltown. Game Over!

[shaft.ed]

Well if you do want to go back to the shooter analysis CKD, and Adele are already not the shooter. I'll tell you I'm not but that's up to you to believe. In my defense I would argue that it is patently obvious if I don't target one of the three useful power roles so I'd have to be CKD aligned to know to target Adele. I don't think Yvonne is per my last argument. I'm not sure about cicero but CKD would have to be his partner if he were the shooter so it's pretty unlikely.

That leaves DGB, Fonz, CES. I do think my vote will land here for the day.

[cicero]

I'm inclined to agree. My vote will land among those three as well. After some good hard questions.

@DGB, Fonz and CES

of the other two, which one do you think is most likely scum and last night's shooter? Which one is least? Why or why not?

[shaft.ed]

Would it make sense for her to fabricate targeting The Fonz in her position with me, you and the Fonz left to claim?

I don't get that part. I need TSQ to explain it to me.

Here let me use the voice of TSQ:

-Being a motivator I have to target either Yvonne, Adele, or The Fonz else I will be assuradely lynched.
-I was claiming after Yvonne thus Yvonne didn't know who I targeted but knew I didn't target her so I would have landed on Adele or The Fonz.
-Since she doesn't know that (unless Fonz or I am scum with her) she's taking a 50/50 gamble on being caught in a lie by claiming to target the Fonz.
-If she claims Adele she is perfectly safe.

Note that the TSQ didn't actually write the above statement this activity was purely for DGB's benefit.

[The Fonz]

Fonz - her argument was predicated on CKD being a harder road to hoe. Not on CKD being scum. You can say she was mistaken or not the case but it still doesnt make CKD being scum a necessary premise. You're just wrong on this one.

If you think pushing a 'hard' town lynch is townier than pushing an 'easy' one, then I just flat out disagree. But at least I can see where you're coming from- you're disputing the premise that it's impossible for it to be a towntell to push one townie wagon in preference to another.

I maintain that I believe it to be an acceptable premise- and I can think of numerous reasons why a scum cicero might prefer the CKD wagon to an Yvonnewagon. Not least, you're playing with competent players here. You would know that if you went after Yvonne whilst seeming insincere, you'd get called on it.

I don't accept the existence of 'easy' and 'hard' lynches. I don't think it's any harder for a newish protown player to come up with a town-sounding rationale for their actions than a vet, because if the player is actually town, that reason actually exists and is the genuine reason for the action.

When I see a bad argument directed at a newbie, i point it out. When i see a bad argument directed at a vet, I point it out. People should be attacked and defended on the merits of their position, and all I see w/r/t Yvonne is you playing the newbie card over and over on behalf of a player who's been around just as long as you have. If anything, going after n00bs is more dangerous, because there's the potential for accusations of opportunism and a greater likelihood of getting OMGUSed.

[cicero]

]True, but how exactly could I be caught in a lie, if i were scum? I can't be tracked, because the tracker died night one. If a watcher claims to have seen me visiting a dead player, then who i claim to have visited doesn't matter. Either I'm scum, or the player claiming the result

you can get caught in a lie easily

you will say you visited a player that is alive because if you visit a player they will not be dead. A watcher may have watched that player who is alive. That watcher may have seen that: oh dear, Fonz did not visit that player after all.
Therefore you were the shooter.

I knew there was something wrong with our reasons for why Fonzie shouldnt claim his protections.

Another +1 on my Fonzie scumdar.

[DrippingGoofball]

shafter you are a lifesaver.

-Being a motivator I have to target either Yvonne, Adele, or The Fonz else I will be assuradely lynched.
-I was claiming after Yvonne thus Yvonne didn't know who I targeted but knew I didn't target her so I would have landed on Adele or The Fonz.
-Since she doesn't know that (unless Fonz or I am scum with her) she's taking a 50/50 gamble on being caught in a lie by claiming to target the Fonz.
-If she claims Adele she is perfectly safe.

OK. Is it possible that Yvonne didn't realize that she was perfectly safe claiming Adele?

Did she hesistate to claim because she might have needed more time to figure out the right claim?

Could she have gotten lucky? Fifty percent lucky.

[DrippingGoofball]

I knew there was something wrong with our reasons for why Fonzie shouldnt claim his protections.

Slow down! Can you impersonate TSQ and explain this to me?

[shaft.ed]

Ciciero, very a good point. The only player after D1 that knew they were going last, if at all, was The Fonz not Yvonne. Quite the interesting looking back at the push to make Yvonne claim first.

Could she have gotten lucky? Fifty percent lucky.

That's my whole point she didn't have to get fifty percent lucky. Anyone else in the town and she doesn't have to worry about the motivator catching her in a 50/50 lie. Granted by targeting the Fonz she knows he can't catch her lying but he could have effectively targeted anyone in the town so it's better odds (1/7 vs 1/2) for her to pick a non-motivatory target with 100% odds of not getting caught by claiming on Adele.

[cicero]

Fonz - her argument was predicated on CKD being a harder road to hoe. Not on CKD being scum. You can say she was mistaken or not the case but it still doesnt make CKD being scum a necessary premise. You're just wrong on this one.

If you think pushing a 'hard' town lynch is townier than pushing an 'easy' one, then I just flat out disagree. But at least I can see where you're coming from- you're disputing the premise that it's impossible for it to be a towntell to push one townie wagon in preference to another.

There is nothing wrong with what you are saying above here. Remember this is a small argument that got big.

I maintain that I believe it to be an acceptable premise- and I can think of numerous reasons why a scum cicero might prefer the CKD wagon to an Yvonnewagon. Not least, you're playing with competent players here. You would know that if you went after Yvonne whilst seeming insincere, you'd get called on it.

There are indeed numerous reasons why a scum cicero might prefer a CKD wagon to an Yvonne wagon. One is we are scumbuddies. The rest though, dont make a lot of sense at Lylo in this particular game since the other main reason I can think of is to establish my credibility and I was already proven to be not the shooter. I also didnt need to take a leadership role on a wagon at all. That's a risky move for scum and an unnecessary risk this close to a scum win. But you're right it's still possible and the best argument is that I'm her scumbuddy,

I don't accept the existence of 'easy' and 'hard' lynches. I don't think it's any harder for a newish protown player to come up with a town-sounding rationale for their actions than a vet, because if the player is actually town, that reason actually exists and is the genuine reason for the action.

I find it hard to believe that you genuinely believe what you just wrote in the first sentence. You think all players in all situations are equally lynchable. That's a preposterously unviable position. Moving on from the blanket statement - noob players make mistakes all the time by doing things they think are pro-town but screw them up and get themselves lynched. Especially by scum who, like jackals, prey on those who havent learned to defend themselves yet.

When I see a bad argument directed at a newbie, i point it out. When i see a bad argument directed at a vet, I point it out. People should be attacked and defended on the merits of their position, and all I see w/r/t Yvonne is you playing the newbie card over and over on behalf of a player who's been around just as long as you have. If anything, going after n00bs is more dangerous, because there's the potential for accusations of opportunism and a greater likelihood of getting OMGUSed.

I think the above is a fair point. I have to re-evaluate my position on Yvonne's new-ness. She appears to be neither that new nor that incompetent and Yvonne held the same position. In fact, Yvonne on two occasions seems to be something of Adele's parrot does she not? It was Adele who first suggested the watchers go last. And which one of them was it who first raised the jailing Gorgon idea? Someone else tell me. I'm too lazy to dig through the damn thread yet again.

Anyway, when I was on about her experience it had to do with her number of posts vs. CKD's. I didnt think to check her Topics. In the same amount of time on this board her posts number a bit over 250 and CKDs are over 3000.

But whatever. Screw the noob thing. Her defences against everyone prove she's more than competent and that in turn invalidates any noob defense she might have. And noon scum sputter and screw up lots.

I'm not saying she's scum or town. Just being even-handed here. You make a good point. She's certainly read lots of games even if she doesnt post a lot. It's a good correction.

[The Fonz]

Ciciero, very a good point. The only player after D1 that knew they were going last, if at all, was The Fonz not Yvonne. Quite the interesting looking back at the push to make Yvonne claim first.

I'm not sure how you figure that, since cicero and CKD were pressing me to claim at the beginning of the day. (Incidentally, it occurs to me that we should have instituted 'cicero goes last' since his choice is so easily confirmable. Then again, it occurs to me that then, he could claim to have targetted whoever's jailed on a specific day. This is what I get for stream-of-consciousness posting).

DGB's latest attack on Yvonne is noted, if only because she does not employ

@ Shaft.ed: I think it is quite clear that Yvonne would have been aware that I had not been targetted by you, just from information in-thread.

Your claim to have assumed that Adele was jailed because you were able to talk to cicero doesn't really make sense. Jailkeepers never prevent mason discussion, because discussion between existing masons doesn't involve targetting. Same as you can't RB a mason.

I

certainly took it as evidence you targetted Adele. (To come full circle on the 'coaching' accusations CKD brought up earlier, I'd have been more careful in talking about 'THE [singular] player I protected' had I not believed you'd already given away that you'd targetted Adele).

[The Fonz]

*DGB's latest attack is noted, just because she doesn't employ the best argument available to her.

[The Fonz]

Also, apologies for the postx3 (

mod, feel free to clear up if you want

Cicero, I feel I owe you a fuller explanation of my views on the 'easy lynch' thing. It's a pet peeve of mine, and I'll go into why exactly tomorrow.

[cicero]

OK. but just bear in mind that just because YOU dont believe in them doesnt mean I dont and it was my motives that were impugned. So if it's just an abstract discussion it might be better left to mafia discussion. If you think that *I* dont believe what I said I believed than that's a fair ball discussion.

[The Fonz]

Not really. I don't recall ever having said holding that opinion makes you scum. I said it didn't think it was a valid argument in defence of Adele. You have said on more than one occasion that you find it hard to accept that I honestly believe what i'm saying. I see that as motive-impugning.

[The Fonz]

*Yvonne, not Adele.

[cicero]

Not really. I don't recall ever having said holding that opinion makes you scum. I said it didn't think it was a valid argument in defence of Adele. You have said on more than one occasion that you find it hard to accept that I honestly believe what i'm saying. I see that as motive-impugning.

Oh yeah. That's fair. I'm clearly getting tired. But it would be way more helpful if you could meta yourself to prove you believe that which is unbelievable.

[The Fonz]

Let me explain why i believe it first, hombre. Night.

[shaft.ed]

CKD any reason you're avoiding this thread?

[curiouskarmadog]

..should be caught up here in 24.

I said I would post here in 24 hours..I need to get caught up on 3 pages here...if you are going to do a meta...do a meta shafted and dont misrepresent me...if you note, the other games (8 or so total) I am modding or in I have not had time to say more than a sentence...some just like 3 words....this has my top priority if I have time tomorrow.

now, shafted...why did you feel the need to say I was avoiding the thread...when in fact I just dont have time to post something worthwhile?

[shaft.ed]

now, shafted...why did you feel the need to say I was avoiding the thread...when in fact I just dont have time to post something worthwhile?

I'm sorry that was bastardic of me. I just noticed you posting in our other game and was really wanting you to weigh in here because a lot is going on. Apologies.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

CES: Can you take me through why No Lynch is better with 7 than 8 in LyLo again please.

Um, no lynching would be a really bad idea with 7 players in LyLo.

I'll give a serious reply when I get back from university.

[curiouskarmadog]

now, shafted...why did you feel the need to say I was avoiding the thread...when in fact I just dont have time to post something worthwhile?

I'm sorry that was bastardic of me. I just noticed you posting in our other game and was really wanting you to weigh in here because a lot is going on. Apologies.

I will today at some point today

[curiouskarmadog]

have a post coming, dont really have time to post (anything bigger than a sentence or two) today...hopefully this weekend, I should be able to get soemthing meaningful out...

[shaft.ed]

OK it occured to me that we hadn't discussed ZONEACE's death yesterday because of the glaring Gorgon issue. So I was pondering who may be driven to NK ZA.

1) Simplest Scenario is that Yvonne is scum and wanted to take out the only other investigative role last night. Killing ZA would be a non-issue outside of Doc protection since noone would be able to catch such a scum team in the act. However, as I've stated before I don't think Yvonne would have been likely to be so forward in passing her abilities to Adele. Thus Yvonnescum would have to be paird with Adele. And there is some very poor distancing on Yvonne's part to support such an idea. But I'm not really sure I get the Mathcam targeting in such an instance. If you can't be caught why not kill the Doctor or Jailkeeper who could really hinder your chances of winning.
Secondary pairing here would be CKD as Yvonne would have been OK sending powers to Adele if CKD could take her out of commission as was done yesterday. CKD's stating he would vote Yvonne but seeming reluctance to would support such a pairing.

2) Second scenario involves TSQ's D1 play. I get the feeling reading back on it that TSQ knew he wouldn't be able to get a ZA lynch. But he was very successful in casting doubt onto ZA. Thus he could have been simply setting him up for the NK, as lack of trust means lack of Doc protect, watcher targeting. Obviously this play would exclude Yvonne and possibly The Fonz. I would also posit that it excludes DGB since the Tracker is of no use against her power, the watcher would have made more sense. So possible pairing are reductive as Cicero, CKD and Adele. Unless CES is bus'ing CKD, which is entirely possible, I'd put the Cicero Adele pairing as more likely. I think this scenario fits better with the Mathcam N2 kill.

[DrippingGoofball]

2) Second scenario involves TSQ's D1 play. I get the feeling reading back on it that TSQ knew he wouldn't be able to get a ZA lynch. But he was very successful in casting doubt onto ZA. Thus he could have been simply setting him up for the NK, as lack of trust means lack of Doc protect, watcher targeting. Obviously this play would exclude Yvonne and possibly The Fonz. I would also posit that it excludes DGB since the Tracker is of no use against her power, the watcher would have made more sense. So possible pairing are reductive as Cicero, CKD and Adele. Unless CES is bus'ing CKD, which is entirely possible, I'd put the Cicero Adele pairing as more likely. I think this scenario fits better with the Mathcam N2 kill.

If TSQ thought of that, he is a GENIUS. Seriously.