AMURIKA MAFIA - Game Over

[UberNinja]

...and Nacho is editing Uber's post because he has the power to edit Uber's post. Thanks for the patience guys and girls!

It was not an easy morning, to say the least. A once bustling house filled with servants, good food, good alcohol, and okay company was now filled with emptiness and coldness. The servants packed their bags and left during the night because their dedication to AMURIKA was not quite enough to carry them through this house, whatever the hell this house was, and so there was no breakfast, no lunch, no dinner. Only three figures in the house, starting at each other with sleep-deprived eyes and heavy hearts. The one bit of entertainment you thought you would have lied dead in front of you, on your meeting room table. Flava Flav the hype man, always bringing his insightful comments and unique perspective into this wonderful American culture, represents the last man the terrorists would take from you, or the last man who died while there was still hope. The day was a somber one for you three. It was the end of a generation, an end of a time when there was drinking and happiness. It was time to put down the bottle, grow up, and save America. Because god knows no one else can.

And while you're sitting there, looking at which one of your companions you want to betray? There is one with a knife in his back pocket, waiting for the moment when you both are susceptible, turning against each other in desperation. And there will be a smile accompanying that knife in your back, and a paranoia in the back of your mind as you finally make your move. But hey. Good luck.

and at least i didn't flake for too long!

Bulbazak (Flava Flav),

Vanilla Townie

, killed Night 4!

[Nachomamma8]

Votecount 6.1

Not Voting (3): goodmorning, Gorgon, TraceyLyn11

[goodmorning]

Well I'm pretty sure it's Tracey, so...

I'll wait to vote, I know some people like to have that big LyLo conversation before all that.

[TraceyLyn11]

Well I'm pretty sure it's Tracey, so...

I'll wait to vote, I know some people like to have that big LyLo conversation before all that.

Yeah, me!

Though, not so much this time.

I'd really just like to end this game.

I did a short ISO of Goody/PV.

PV's method of working with partners seems to be buddying. In any which way, from anyone's point of view, he's had a town read on Goody, Gorgon, and I all (well, most of it) game. That said, he's never dropped his town read on Goody. If I remember correctly, she's never even dropped to a null.

And there are a few select posts (A1 with A2, and then B separately) that stick out to me as... Interesting. C sticks out to me in particular, especially with D.

Why? A1 and A2 is PV purposely tying himself to Goody. B is PV again tying himself to Goody purposely. C shows PV thinking ahead. Hiraki and Cryo were obviously going to die. That would automatically leave him with me, Goody, Gorgon, and Bulb. Bulb was a good mislynch. Putting us three together as town would allow for him to a) be flexible with changing his reads later and b) not be accused of changing his reads dramatically. D is especially interesting because regardless of who his partner was, he had to believe Goody and Bulb were scum together.

What that says is, PV was quite the strategist. He incorporated a lot of WIFOM into his play, and he made sure to leave himself many outs while thinking to the future - accurately, too.

His interactions with Goody aren't particularly telling considering he was backed into the corner in five player LyLo and

had

to believe Goody was scum.

That said, I've also done a skim of Gorgon/PV. The first thing I notice is Gorgon's complete lack of mention of PV (early-game, anyways), and his complete obsession with Bulb. >_> And about halfway through, I'm bored of all of the -words-.

I give up.

I'm already at the point where I think my mind is made up.

Me likes Goody as town, Gorgon as scum.

PV just tied himself too tightly to Goody. And, I dunno. I still get iffy gut vibes from Goody, but I get worse vibes from Gorgon. Gorgon's play yesterday was eh. And the hammer was kinda bad.

Yeah, I like this.

Does anyone have an objection to a short day? Because, frankly, I'd like to just vote and see where it takes us at this point.

[Gorgon]

I'm definitely not ready to vote just yet.

My gut is leaning Tracey, especially after her play yesterday, but looking over goodmorning I can see reasons for pegging her as scum as well. Maybe that's just paranoia though.

Anyway, I'd like to start with a couple of questions for each of you.

Well, originally it was because I thought it was automatically you-PV or Bulb-Goody, in which case keeping my reads to myself and waiting for you to vote first would be beneficial. Now, however, I'm hiding them because

I'm not entirely sure what my reads are myself

.

My

most solid read

was just lynched, leaving me confused.

Can you explain this?

I know that if Hiraki flips Town the likely scumteam is Tracey/PV.

What did you base this knowledge on?

[Gorgon]

That said, he's never dropped his town read on Goody. If I remember correctly, she's never even dropped to a null.

Then you remember incorrectly. I would classify this as at least null-ish:

@Goodmorning

- You've recent lack of effort doesn't match up with your early game play. I'd like to hear where you stand on each player and why.

I don't read posts A1, A2 and B in quite the same way as you do. I think that they look pretty natural given the context and that to read purposeful tying into them is somewhat circumstantial. Speaking of which, reading back knowing PV is scum, I get some pretty bad buddying vibes from this (but of course to be fair, one could probably call that circumstantial as well):

Gorgon- I understand playstyle differences, but since I used to post like that when I was gung-ho, I can hear what he's saying.

Your interpretation of C is quite plausible to me but it says nothing about which of us is likely scum IMO.

I simply don't get where you're going with D.

The first thing I notice is Gorgon's complete lack of mention of PV (early-game, anyways),

Really?

Peregrine's vote was also not exactly well-reasoned, but he seems a little terse in general so far.

... and his complete obsession with Bulb.

Lolwut? The Gorgon/Bulb incident early game was driven by both of us and I'd say it died pretty quickly. I have like three back-and-forth walls with him and I was engaging with other players as well while that was going on so to call this an 'obsession' is a pretty blatant misrep. Unless you're talking about my later play but I can't possibly see how that could be fair either after ISO-ing myself.

Gorgon's play yesterday was eh.

How so?

And the hammer was kinda bad.

Again, how so?

[TraceyLyn11]

Well, originally it was because I thought it was automatically you-PV or Bulb-Goody, in which case keeping my reads to myself and waiting for you to vote first would be beneficial. Now, however, I'm hiding them because

I'm not entirely sure what my reads are myself

.

My

most solid read

was just lynched, leaving me confused.

Can you explain this?

Most solid =/= solid.

Then you remember incorrectly. I would classify this as at least null-ish:

I wouldn't.. Considering, ya know, a short twenty posts later he clumps her into his absolute-town pile?

I simply don't get where you're going with D.

That's probably a result of D originally being something else, me realizing I missed something, and me throwing a slightly adapted version in anyways because -lazy-.

Really?

I don't think one example disproves my point... Even so, as I said, I skimmed.

Lolwut? The Gorgon/Bulb incident early game was driven by both of us and I'd say it died pretty quickly. I have like three back-and-forth walls with him and I was engaging with other players as well while that was going on so to call this an 'obsession' is a pretty blatant misrep. Unless you're talking about my later play but I can't possibly see how that could be fair either after ISO-ing myself.

That was a joking remark, it didn't mean anything game-related, really.

How so?

You seemed more opportunistic and aggressive. Your early play was more rational and patient.

Again, how so?

Well, you WERE the hammer, a. B, you overexplained your hammer a bit too much. And, c, you assumed you would be the night kill from the sound of it.

[goodmorning]

I know that if Hiraki flips Town the likely scumteam is Tracey/PV.

What did you base this knowledge on?

If I'm being honest here, I don't really remember, but I said it in post 1132 and I think I had a brilliant goddamned reason at the time, though fuck if I can even slightly remember what.
I'm ISOing and some reasoning is below.

1. StK, despite having been wishywashy on joels all early game, asks me why I have a Null read on joels (162).
2. StK, despite finding joels "the most suspicious player", says he does not want to put joels at L-1, despite already being voting him (311).
3. Doesn't even mention PV until 342. Then a mention in 366 that only pertains to the voting patterns of Dan. No other mentions til he votes PV in 475, completely out of the blue and a bare 17 hours after "double confirming" his vote on Konowa. Then some responses to questions from PV in 491 and 498-501. I could go on, but basically, he didn't even interact with PV more than a couple times before joels was dead, and afterwards bussed the shit out of him.
4. Tracey puts PV as her top Townread (not counting Reg, because obvious) in 1049, despite him being the scummiest player in the game. Null-leaning-Town I could maybe go, "oh, she's just got a different opinion" but TOWNIEST MOTHERFUCKER? I CALL BULLSHIT
5. Tracey avoids commenting on some things, tries to slip under the radar, blah, blah, SCUM

[goodmorning]

By the way, joels was modkilled in 379. That's 2 references from StK in 17 pages.

[TraceyLyn11]

WAIT WHAT

WHAAAAT

WHAT HAVE I AVOIDED COMMENTING ON

Your number one is kind of bad and moot. Your two and three might be good, I dunno. On my phone, don't feel like checking.

Your four is fine; though, I rarely see people think someone's scummy for NOT placing the scum in the nullish region as opposed to the town/scum regions. Warning bells, but I digress.

YOUR FIVE IS CRAP AND I RESENT IT

SLIP UNDER THE RADAR MY ASS

AVOIDING COMMENTING MY ASS

I DEMAND ANSWERSSSSS

[goodmorning]

Well, for a start:

In fact, I specifically avoided commenting on my read of them.

Yes, that is the exact wording.

[Gorgon]

Most solid =/= solid.

I don't want to split hairs about definitions, but it was certainly apparently solid enough for you to lament his lynch.

Then you remember incorrectly. I would classify this as at least null-ish:

I wouldn't.. Considering, ya know, a short twenty posts later he clumps her into his absolute-town pile?

Which post is that? Link please because I'm not seeing it.

I don't think one example disproves my point... Even so, as I said, I skimmed.

Well, it does logically disprove it. If you're really concerned with reading players fairly you do not make blanket statements like this which you cannot back up. What then remains of that statement? What pattern are you seing in my play and why? Why is that scummy?

That was a joking remark, it didn't mean anything game-related, really.

Fine, we'll drop it then.

You seemed more opportunistic and aggressive. Your early play was more rational and patient.

Opportunism is indeed scummy but I wasn't opportunistic there. Don't know what else I can say about that.

My level of 'aggression' depends very much on my reads and the game state.

I was very rational, in fact that was the most rational day for me as knowing that either PV or both Bulb and gm were scum helped a lot to deduce that PV was the best bet.

And yeah, I was somewhat impatient and you refusing to give reads was the last straw. How did you expect me to take it from there? You gave me nothing to work with.

I think my play was warranted considering how that play went down and it did catch scum in the end.

]Well, you WERE the hammer

So? Is that inherently scummy?

B, you overexplained your hammer a bit too much.

I don't think I did. Also, this characterization conflicts somewhat with the one of me being impatient.

And, c, you assumed you would be the night kill from the sound of it.

I said that the night's survivors could hopefully sort things out, which meant 'whoever survives the night'. I frankly had little idea as to who would be a likely kill tonight and didn't give it much thought.

~~~

If you really want a breakdown of my play yesterday from my point of view complete with reasons for my actions I'll provide it. Don't have the time for it right now but I will.

[Gorgon]

I rarely see people think someone's scummy for NOT placing the scum in the nullish region as opposed to the town/scum regions.

Invocation of WIFOM?

Anyway, the main point was that gm found your town read of PV to be unconvincing, which you are apparently not defending.

[TraceyLyn11]

Well, for a start:

In fact, I specifically avoided commenting on my read of them.

Yes, that is the exact wording.

The sad thing is, when I made that post, I was thinking, "I just know that she's going to find a post of me saying exactly that, but I don't remember it, SO NOPENOPENOPE."

Meh. I dunno. It's not as if I was avoiding commenting on my reads because I had huge reads to hide. It was the opposite. I didn't know where I stood, so I wanted to wait until I did to say anything. Outside of that instance, I think I've been fairly open and stream-of-conscious speaking, yeah?

Tell me where I tried to slip under the radar. Low activity =/= slipping under the radar, by the way.

I don't want to split hairs about definitions, but it was certainly apparently solid enough for you to lament his lynch.

Yes? He may not have been a solid read, but he was my

most

solid read, so why would I want him or be okay with him being gone?

Which post is that? Link please because I'm not seeing it.

Here ya go.

Well, it does logically disprove it. If you're really concerned with reading players fairly you do not make blanket statements like this which you cannot back up. What then remains of that statement? What pattern are you seing in my play and why? Why is that scummy?

Fine. "Complete lack of mention" obviously was wrong. Change it to "99% lack of mention". My point still stands, no? You're strawmanning me, and I don't like it. You understood what I was saying, and one post (that I

did

miss in the skim, by the way) doesn't disprove my point.

I never even said that it

was

scummy, either. I said that it was the first thing I noticed.

Do

I think it's scummy, though? Only when you add in that you mentioned and talked about Joel a lot. But even then I'd say it's more null than alignment indicative, really.

So? Is that inherently scummy?

Given the circumstances surrounding the hammer, yeah, kinda. We were

four days

into day three. And it was LyLo! And considering you hammered scum, it makes sense for you to be the scum buddy "coming to the rescue", no?

I don't think I did. Also, this characterization conflicts somewhat with the one of me being impatient.

No it doesn't.

If you really want a breakdown of my play yesterday from my point of view complete with reasons for my actions I'll provide it. Don't have the time for it right now but I will.

I wasn't going to ask for that, but yeah, go ahead. That sounds nice. Go for it.

Invocation of WIFOM?

No? I mean, it might be WIFOM. But I'd say the majority of the site would agree that the accepted strategy is to keep your partner at null-town, null, or null-scum rather than the extremes. There's always obviously going to be outliers, and there's plenty of other circumstances that need to be taken into account. But considering that is what I've seen in my experience, I felt it necessary to point out her leaving the norm.

Anyway, the main point was that gm found your town read of PV to be unconvincing, which you are apparently not defending.

Why would I?

[goodmorning]

Tell me where I tried to slip under the radar. Low activity =/= slipping under the radar, by the way.

I would say it does, but when you replaced in and asked someone to summarize that was pretty under-the-radar of you I thought

But my brain is melting and I'm sure you know why.

[TraceyLyn11]

Tell me where I tried to slip under the radar. Low activity =/= slipping under the radar, by the way.

I would say it does, but when you replaced in and asked someone to summarize that was pretty under-the-radar of you I thought

But my brain is melting and I'm sure you know why.

hahaahahha

I don't replace into games anymore because I don't have the time or patience to read them. I replaced in here as a favor to Nacho, so reading the thread wasn't really in my books as something necessary to do. Especially with thirty pages behind it.

uhhhh

am i supposed to know why

because

i have no idea what you're talking about here

[Gorgon]

Here is my breakdown.

After it was clear that it was either Bulb/gm or PV I went over Bulb's and gm's interactions (that, among other things, was the 'gone over it extensively' part in my hamer post) and they did not look scum/scum at all. They had pretty solid town reads on each other throughout and even defended each other. (Speaking of the unlikelihood of scum having a solid read on a partner ... how likely is it with two players?)

This is exactly the reason why I don't think I overdefended the hammer at all. I could have gone through these interactions but I was waiting on Tracey to give me

something

I could work with and make sense out of and then I just got fed up with waiting. What are you going to do when the only other player who really was in a position to give me accurate dynamic read-based input refuses to give reads? Also, since I was hammering this issue was moot anyway as with PV town the game would have been over and with PV scum a gm/Bulb scumpair would become impossible (duh).

Anyway, Gm and Bulb,

no matter what each of their alignments were

, were contained within a bubble of knowing or 'knowing' PV to be scum, so for them their only logical and expected behavior was to just pretty much wait until the day ended. Of course they could and did provide some input but it doesn't take much imagination to see how it's distracting or 'distracting' to have a 100% read. They just basically want to get the guy lynched. Other concerns are secondary. As town they would behave like this for real and as scum they would just fake it, secure in their little 'bubble of obvious knowledge'. I.e. hard to read dynamically. It affects both their own flow and throws off reads on them.

A much more extreme situation applies to PV; town or scum, he knew or 'knew' that gm/Bulb were the scum! He had it all figured out and was completely unproddable. So he was enclosed in the ultimate 'bubble of obvious knowledge'. Kind of like an ultimate tree stump.

That only left me and Tracey as people who were not contained in these 'bubbles of knowledge' and could have a undistraced conversation with people, especially each other. Our conversation was not very productive (not to mention confusing, but that was partly my fault of course), I had a pretty solid read on Bulb/gm not being the scum, a pretty solid read on Bulb independently, a townish read on gm and a scummish read on PV, who was 'stumped' to the max so there was not really anything to get out of him.

So I hammered. Correctly. It was the right move, period.

Is that logic clear enough?

>The fact that Tracey was in the very same position or 'position' as me but struggled remarkably hard to work out the correct situation is also very telling. I think it basically shouts 'position'.<*

>The same applies to her apparent inability to work my play yesterday out for herself.<

I had some inkling of a doubt at the start of the day because her play yesterday was so unexplicable, and yesterday was really not very productive in terms of reads on gm, that I thought it best to see how this day went. I explicitly opened the possibility of gm being the scum partly to give me neutral cover to question them and check their reactions to me and each other. Result: Overall gm reads more town than Tracey today. She plays it cool, man.

So yeah, I don't have any doubt anymore; Tracey is the lynch.

VOTE: TraceyLynn

I will eat all of my wardrobe if this if wrong.

[Gorgon]

EBWOP: 'a pretty solid

town

read on Bulb independently'

I worked so hard on that gem and wanted to make it perfect. Oh well. Can't win 'em all.

[goodmorning]

Well that post is quite nice. I'll wait to see what Tracey has to say and then I'll hammer unless it is so miraculous that it can overcome me which is unlikely.

[TraceyLyn11]

HA

FOR THE FIRST TIME IN A LONG TIME I MADE THE CORRECT CHOICE IN LYLO

I FEEL ACCOMPLISHED

I'll make a post when I get home, but meh. It's not gonna be anything spectacular because GORGON DIDN'T RESPOND TO MY LAST POST. COUGH.

[Gorgon]

GORGON DIDN'T RESPOND TO MY LAST POST. COUGH.

I had no need to. My hammer post pegged you as scum in my eyes and since gm didn't hammer I'm 100%. Speaking of bubbles of knowledge ...

[TraceyLyn11]

GORGON DIDN'T RESPOND TO MY LAST POST. COUGH.

I had no need to. My hammer post pegged you as scum in my eyes and since gm didn't hammer I'm 100%. Speaking of bubbles of knowledge ...

c'mon man

help a chick out

[Gorgon]

Sure why not? I've got nothing better to do in this game.

This sticks out in particular:

Which post is that? Link please because I'm not seeing it.

Here ya go.

This is not PV clumping anyone into an absolute town pile. It's clumping three players into a 'meh' pile as a direct response to a question about who is liklely scum, which is pragmatic and opportunistic and a classic scum move. It leaves a lot of options open for later. It says nothing really about PV's 'read' on gm at that time.

[TraceyLyn11]

I was actually hoping you'd, ya know, answer my questions.

But in response to your post, look at the quote he quoted in his post. Oh look! A reads list. And oh look at how it's set up! "Confirmed" town>town>null-town>null-scum. He was saying to move me to the town pile with you and Goody. Basically saying you and Goody are still, ya know, town reads.

Unless I misinterpreted and he moved you both to null-town.

But that's not the impression I got. >_>

[Gorgon]

I don't want to split hairs about definitions, but it was certainly apparently solid enough for you to lament his lynch.

Yes? He may not have been a solid read, but he was my

most

solid read, so why would I want him or be okay with him being gone?

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying there's a certain discrepancy in you refusing to give any reads and all and saying you don't know anything really and then having a most solid read on someone. If it was indeed most solid it should have been enough to go on and comment on.

Fine. "Complete lack of mention" obviously was wrong. Change it to "99% lack of mention". My point still stands, no? You're strawmanning me, and I don't like it. You understood what I was saying, and one post (that I

did

miss in the skim, by the way) doesn't disprove my point.

I wouldn't call it a strawman. A strawman would be attacking you hard for this point which I don't think I did. I was merely pointing out that your blanked statement was incorrect and I still think that an honest town player would have phrased this differently. But meh, it's a minor quibble.

I never even said that it

was

scummy, either. I said that it was the first thing I noticed.

Do

I think it's scummy, though? Only when you add in that you mentioned and talked about Joel a lot. But even then I'd say it's more null than alignment indicative, really.

Why did you include it in a post where you come to the conclusion that I'm scum then? Of course I assumed you were (at least very possibly) implying it's scummy and therefore I asked for a clarification. And the result is that it's null. Yay.

So? Is that inherently scummy?

Given the circumstances surrounding the hammer, yeah, kinda. We were

four days

into day three. And it was LyLo! And considering you hammered scum, it makes sense for you to be the scum buddy "coming to the rescue", no?

That's circumstantial and completely moot now anyway. See my hammer post above.

Anyway, the main point was that gm found your town read of PV to be unconvincing, which you are apparently not defending.

Why would I?

Why not? Why not take the opportunity to explain your town read on PV since gm was bringing its integrity into question?