Cephrir wrote:
11: Disagrees with Charters reasons why Crazy's massclaim push is scummy. Mischaracterizes Crazy's attacks against Iceman, then goes on to state scum are no more likely than townies to try and fake knowledge of the tell. (False) Goes on to say that there is no way that Crazy was lying about his scumtell.
Unless you want to tell me how that's mischaracterization, this point does not exist. And I still believe that scum weren't more likely to pretend to know the tell, because either way it's just dumb.
Scum would be more inclined to pretend to know the tell because it makes them look like town, especially after Crazy mentioned that only townie players would know what the tell is.
As for mischaracterizing Crazy's case, you are partially right. You note that Iceman seemingly knowing a different scumtell to Crazy is not a scumtell, and this was Crazy's initial case against Iceman. However, you then say he was still voting Iceman up until his selfvote, for the same reason as above. This is incorrect. Crazy had moved his vote around before returning it to Iceman because Iceman clearly did not have a clue what Crazy's scumtell was even after he had revealed it. The only way he could not have any idea about this would be if he was scum. THAT was Crazy's case. The way you respond to Crazy's case, you make it seem flawed and that Iceman is not suspicious, for all the wrong reasons.
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Cephrir wrote:
12: Still doesn't understand how faking knowledge of the tell would be a scumtell. Gives the reason for still voting Crazy as liking the conversation generated by it, but then goes on to say that he thinks Crazy has acted scummy, but not as scummy as pwnz. Still doesn't believe Crazy made up his tell, and agrees with Iceman that Crazy is likely scum.
Show me where I said Crazy was likely scum. I said I didn't think so as much as Iceman seemed to, which really doesn't imply anything about quantity except that it was less than 100%.
I'm not going to show you where you said Crazy was likely scum in this post because I never said that. I said that you had agreed with Iceman who himself stated that Crazy was likely scum and had stated that Crazy had performed scummy actions.
Cephrir wrote:And I do find his actions suspicious as well
[...]
Iceman wrote:1. He has been acting incredibly scummy, setting the tell business aside.
2. I don't believe the "he either made up the tell, or he's town" argument is sound.
I pretty much agree. Except I'm not as certain of Crazy being scum as Iceman sounds.
Not being as certain as iceman doesn't change the fact you agreed with him that Crazy was acting scummy, and that you thought the "he either made up the tell, or he's town" argument was flawed. As you had stated in other posts that you were certain Crazy was not making up his tell, which according to the statement would make Crazy town, your disagreement with this strongly suggests you thought Crazy was scum.
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Cephrir wrote:13: Clarifies that he would be voting for pwnz if he didn't like the conversation generated by his vote. (Dislike this. The conversation had nothing to do with pwnz, who seems to be the person you find most scummy according to these posts, so why were you on the Crazy wagon instead of attacking pwnz?)
Because pressure. I don't see how you could possibly not get that.
If you didn't actually think Crazy was very scummy as you seemed to imply in your response above, why were you pressuring him instead of pwnz, who you did found scummy? What could a townsperson gain from pressuring someone else they found to be town instead of someone they found scummy?
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Cephrir wrote:14: Decides that RR is right about Crazy's tell and thus that Crazy is town. Unvotes. Goes on to say that Crazy's breakdown and self vote is a null tell, but also that Charter (Who is attacking Crazy) is right. What just happened here?
His being right and Crazy being scum were not the same thing.
Wait, What?
Lets have a look at that quote again.
Cephrir wrote:Raging Rabbit wrote:Cephrir & Iceman - You claim that Crazy believed his daytalk tell was valid, but is still scum. But scum have their own daytalk forum, and thus scum-Crazy would
know
townies aren't the only ones with daytalk and thus
know
his scumtell isn't valid. I'd like you to explain how this is possible.
Huh. Actually, you're right. Score one for logic.
Unvote
.
RR's entire point was that if Crazy was telling the truth about his scumtell plan, it made him town. You agreed with RR, then unvoted Crazy. You have stated before that you believed that Crazy was definitely telling the truth about his scumtell. How does this NOT show that you thought Crazy was town?
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Cephrir wrote:16: Quotes Adel's case on Iceman, then votes him despite saying 'he's been pretty protown otherwise' and doesn't provide any other reasons why he believes iceman to be scum. (I really don't like this, it seems like a half hearted bus attempt that he can take back if Iceman don't go down.)
Nah, not really. Adel's case was pretty damn condemning.
So why did you give yourself an out by saying you thought Iceman seemed pretty protown otherwise?
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Cephrir wrote:17: After several more votes have been laid down and a much more expanded case from Adel, he changes his tune and jumps down hard on Iceman. Calls for sekinj to vote for Iceman.
There was no change.
No change? Ho ho ho.
Things that had happened between post #16 and post #17.
3 additional votes.
Adel's greatly expanded case
1 more vote.
And then, instead of saying "I still think Iceman is pretty protown otherwise" you call for Icemans blood, even asking sekinj why she is not already voting for iceman.
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Cephrir wrote:18: Further reiterates desire to hang Iceman. Tries to make himself look less like a follower by stating Adel had no impact on his vote.
I didn't say that; I just said 144/146 were reason enough to lynch him on their own. I wouldn't have noticed if Adel didn't point them out though.
So. You say that you had enough reason to lynch iceman based on two posts and didn't need Adel's big case, and that you would have done this sooner if you had noticed them, but you missed them until Adel pointed them out.
How is this not showing a desire to hang iceman as well as trying to seem less like a follower by stating Adel's big case was not what swayed your opinion?
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Cephrir wrote:23: Doesn't want the Iceman lynch to stop, and says 'If we don't do it now we would just do it later' (Bad logic here) Also FoS's everyone voting for Crazy, which seems to contradict #22.
I didn't say I myself wanted to lynch Crazy, just that others seemed to want to still. Also, that's not bad logic.
Not bad logic? I propose since Darla will undoubtedly manage to get herself lynched some time in the future, we should lynch her right away. By this logic, you should have actually been supporting the Crazy lynch, because as you said, you thought most people still supported the lynch and it would be revived again regardless.
Can you explain to me how proposing we go ahead with a lynch because 'It will probably go ahead anyway' is good logic and not a good way for a scum to try and push a wagon into a proper lynch?
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Cephrir wrote:28: Opposes massclaim some more, and sets himself up to allow him to cast suspicion on Adel if her reasons are not identical to Cephrir's reasons. Disagrees with Crazy's OF case.
I assumed she was going for reactions, as if not then she had flip-flopped on her D1 stance.
Lets keep this clarification in mind as we look at some of the following quotes.
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Cephrir wrote:32: Explains his shift in opinion by stating that massclaim would let them use Adels tell, even though it had been stated by Adel and others that the tell was not that effective. Also doesn't explain the contradiction to his position in #2, Adel's tell does nothing to stop this.
See that #2? That means it was my second post. People can change their minds.
My apologies, I meant to write 'Contradicts his position in #2 AND #28', where you clearly stated "
My argument against massclaim from D1 basically still applies here"
Also, this still doesn't explain why you were suddenly in favour of the massclaim in order to use Adel's tell, which even
Adel said was not a solid tell
Finally, lets go back to the above point. Adel's reasons given for wanting a massclaim were given as a way to pressure lurker pairs. This is not 'going for reactions'. So why then did you not call her out on this and were willing to forgo your previous stance in order to follow Adel into a massclaim?
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Cephrir wrote:40: Agrees with klouds case on pwnz. (Not surprising given previous attacks on pwnz) Also tries to paint kloud as protown, but throws in some suspicion by calling it a possible bussing attempt.
Or, I actually thought it was probably a towntell at the time. And look! I was right!
So if you thought it was a town tell, why did you feel the need to throw in the disclaimer that he could be bussing? Seems like a way to throw suspicion on kloud and give yourself an out if he flips scum.
Finding out that kloud flipped an alignment doesn't exactly prove anything either. Watch, I can do it too: 'I think that sekinj might be town, but she could actually be scum.' Now, should sekinj die, I can use this quote and say I was right all along, regardless of what she might flip.
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Cephrir wrote:45: Cephrir does not like the deadline. States he would vote either cerebus or kloud. Seems to contradict #40 where he agreed with kloud.
Both were still scummier than OF.
That's not the point. The point is that after stating that kloud was giving you town vibes, you still thought he was a candidate for the lynch today. This is a plain contradiction.
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Cephrir wrote:47: Thinks Alabaska might be bussing but decides bussing is stupid. States he was buddying up with dybeck but completely ignores the fact alabaska and dybeck are lovers. Likes klouds input. States that HP's refusal to acknowledge RR's sensible case is somehow a towntell (Wait, what? How is failing to address logical points against you and deciding to ignore them a town tell?) Concludes that he would vote kloud at deadline.
I don't think scum with a case on them would just pretend it wasn't there. It just seems so... stupid.
Just as stupid as doing it as town? Saying it is a null tell is one thing, but you said his avoidance of points against him was somehow a towntell.
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Cephrir wrote:52: Cephrir thinks the only thing remotely scummy he has done is disagree with charter, and that this is not a tell. (This is what Adel's scum tell was all about, distancing and disagreeing with your lover, and Cephrir supported a massclaim in order to use Adel's scumtell.)
Disagreeing =/= distancing.
Not all disagreements are distancing, but some are. You can't ignore the point just because some cases of disagreeing do not distance two players.
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Cephrir wrote:54: Calls for people to make a relevant vote, but manages to miss Cerebus and Harvey completely.
Well it was pretty obvious who they'd be voting.
Pretty obvious? You thought they shouldn't have to actually place any vote because it was 'pretty obvious' where they would stick it? Why should they have been exempt? Even if they did take the 'obvious' route, it still would have provided information that could be used later.
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Cephrir wrote:57: Cephrir accuses Darox of ignoring Crazy, stating that he had a valid point. Then goes on to state that Crazy's OF case is still worthless. Goes on to say that he is no longer suspicious of Adel's vote hop because she has stated that it was a vote hop.
Yet another post summary that doesn't actually make me scum at all.
After Adel voted for you, you proceeded to make several posts against her basically attacking her failure to provide a case. Once she 'explained' that it was to gain info for later in the game, you were suddenly fine with her lack of a case and retracted your suspicions about her. Then more recently when she put you as one of her people she thought was a lynch candidate again, you started up again.
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Cephrir wrote:I really think you could do exactly what you just did on any player with a reasonable amount of posts. And quite frankly, I think that if Adel had named someone other than me at the end of yesterday, that's who you'd have just posted a really lame case on.
I actually wondered what Adel was doing right up until you responded to her vote.
Cephrir wrote:Adel wrote:unvote, vote:Cephrir
for being mafia.
This is extremely helpful, and pursuing a wagon other than cerebus or kloud is extremely protown right now.
Also, it is not in any way hypocritical coming from someone who's been insisting that everyone place a relevant vote.
Trying to minimize Adel's vote and attack her credibility, as well as trying to keep the towns focus on the two wagons and away from anywhere else, especially yourself.
Conclusion: Cephrir is still scummy.
