The Fonz wrote:OK, CKD's more experienced than Yvonne. Adele? Also, it doesn't strike me that Yvonne is exactly a raw newbie. She has six months on the site and six completed games. Also, we're comparing apples to oranges. Night actions and daytalk are fundamentally different things. I cannot think of many bigger scumtells that can occur during the day than a) pushing a scum-favouring plan, b) attributing to others positions they never held (claiming that everyone supported the idea of 'watchers go last' in perpetuity) and c) refusing to claim when it is the consensus that one do so.cicero wrote:
CKD is more experienced than Yvonne by far. Yvonne floated a trial balloon for the town to consider. CKD just went ahead and did what he did. I also see a difference between tieing up a rather conflicted role like the jailkeeper, and tieing up a person who could act as motivator, watcher, or extra doctor if given the right powers. CKD's action was ENORMOUSLY and BLATANTLY anti-town. It's almost impressive in its sheer audacity, if he is scum. This is far different than brainstorming a way for town to maybe have its cake and eat it too. Can you not see the obvious difference?
Read my quote. Read Fonz's quote. Is Fonz's quote on the subject of my quote? Fonz: I'm not really enjoying being in the defend Yvonne business, when I'm really in the CKD is the play business. There is a 3/8 chance that Yvonne is scum. 37.5%. The idea that I would say she is definitely not scum is stupid stupid stupid. Now, you point out 3 scumtells for Yvonneseer. I see issues with them but she's a big girl she's gonna have to handle them herself. Defending her is not my job. It's more of a biproduct of this conversation. Suffice it to say, I don't see any of those actions the same way you do. But maybe I'm just stupid. more importantly, if you're going to do things by quote pyramid, you should probably address what's in the pyramid.
Once again though, you make a good point. Adele can't use inexperience as an excuse. So Adele is scum too, right?
Where does anyone assume that suggesting something scummy makes someone definitely scum? Whereas you appear to be arguing precisely that CKD's action is entirely incompatible with his being town (since you claim to get a protown feeling from him otherwise).I don't blithely assume anything. I'm raising the counterpoint based on all the information at my disposal, when others were blithely assumes the opposite and not even considering a plausible pro-town motive. I do that. And I'm not even saying it clears her. Does your suggested scumgroup include Yvonne as well as Adele because only scum would suggest it? Odds suggest it might be raised by people with town intentions.
Your biggest argument for lynching Yvonne is that she suggested something scummy. Why is Yvonne scum for suggesting it and Adele not? I assume your answer is because in toto she's displayed more scumtells to you, but we both agree then that floating that trial balloon could be done by both a town playe or a scum player. You seem to imply, regardless of you express qualifications, that this is very strong evidence for someone being scum. Therefore you must strongly suspect both Adele and Yvonne of being scum
I never said there was anything wrong in the case on DrippingGoofball itself, did I?What I'm asking is what is wrong with her case against DrippingGoofball - which centres on DGB trying to suspect her no matter what facts she's using as premises turn out to be false. This is a separate point from whether she suspects me or CKD. CKD and I can both be town, and for various reasons she can infer that.
I thought originally you had because of the way you phrased things. What you've done is just ignore her case on DGB out of hand, when she actually made good points. And you've made this weird byzantine argument for it that ties her three separate points together, that I guess we need to revisit again.
What I said was, it's logically inconsistent to make one argument premised off CKD being scum, and then vote someone else.
This is what I've never gotten. What argument exactly is necessarily premised on CKD being scum? Oh this:
CKD and you could OF COURSE be both town. But it's not valid to argue for your innocence off the basis of CKD's guilt, then vote someone other than CKD.
But you've made this giant logical leap off of an innocuous statement:
Yvonneseer wrote:I think cicero is likely town. There's absolutely no reason for him to be scum and prevent a mislynch today by defending me, especially since I was the easiest target and we are in some sort of potential lylo.
You seem to be really bugged by the syntax of a post that's really not different than what Mathcam is saying. It isn't premised on CKD being scum at all. You just hate the words "prevent a mislynch" because you realise that CKD could also be a mislynch, and now you can't see the forest of what she's trying to communicate through those particular trees of language. You are either deliberately or accidentaly obscuring that which is perfectly clear. Yvonne saying: "I know I'm not scum. I think I was an easy mislynch. Cicero, who I know is not my partner, pushed against my mislynch and for a harder lynch. That is a towntell for me." That's all she's saying.
CKD being scum is not a necessary premise for this argument.
This stuff above is worthy of some consideration. But just as Yvonne's self-referential statements must be dismissed. So must yours. Particularly in light of recent obfuscation.Fonz wrote: This is the crux of my argument. For Yvonne's argument in your favour to carry any weight whatsoever, CKD must be scum.
so you argument fails because you've accidentally or deliberately inserted a premise which does not in fact exist. You've simply misunderstood.
Your unwillingness to vote Yvonne, 'preventing a mislynch' is only a towntell IF CKD IS SCUM. My position is that it is not a towntell to shun a particular town wagon, if the alternative is another town wagon.
This is wrong. My willingness to vote Yvonne is a towntell, in her argument and from her perspective, because the path of least resistance was to jump on the Yvonne wagon. From anyone else's perspective (well other townies) my actions must also be seen as me being Yvonne's scumbuddy. That presumption (me being Yvonne's scumbuddy) is perfectly sensible to consider. Your argument, I'm sorry, is not.
No it doesn't. I'd like you to explain why favouring one wagon on a town player over another wagon on a town player could reasonably be considered a town tell.So this second premise you suggest is necessary - of CKD being scum - is completely unnecessary. Premise one stands up whether he's scum or town.
Townies don't know who else is townie. Her argument, as pointed out to you repeatedly, was based on me going against easy pickins. The premises are: 1) Yvonne was an easy lynch. 2) CKD was a harder lynch. 3) Cicero didn't go with the flow. 4)Yvonne (asserts) towniness. Therefore conclusion: Cicero towntell. Then she moves on. CKD's alignment is not a premise in the argument. Basic logic.
If you concede that it cannot, then Yvonne's defence of you and her non-voting of CKD are inconsistent with one another, and one or other (or both) must be invalid.
I have beaten this conclusion silly.
Now, you have next questioned whether CKD was the harder lynch. This is a fair objection (if incorrect). It questions the truth of an actual premise rather than inserting one that does not exist. You can try to redraw history if you like but the fact is that all the blocks were gently tumbling into place for an Yvonne lynch, and I definitely DEFINITELY could have gone a long way towards offering her a length of rope.
In other news,
Vote: YvonneSeer
With CES voting CKD, that reduces the likelihood of a CKD/CES pairing. I don't see CKD as scum with cicero or Adele (Adele's possible scumtell of suggesting CKD lock up Gorgon indefinitiely, and CKD's of locking up Adele, both seem to be more reasonable from a scum perspective if the other is town). I know I'm not scum with CKD. This, from my perspective, leaves an awfully limited number of options for CKD scumgroups, and a majority of plausible CKD scumgroups from my perspective also include Yvonne (I think Yvonne/Adele are likely scumpartners, but Yvonne is more likely to be scum if Adele is not than vice versa, imho). I'm pretty confident this is the better lynch.
CKD and [Shaft.ed-DGB-Fonz]
Off the top of my head, at the very least a pairing with any two of the above is perfectly likely from my perspective and would make some sense based on recent play. But I'm not done thinking about this aspect of things.
And now I need to go to lunch. I dont want to stall play so this imperfect post will have to do for now.
