/in-Vitational Game 4 (Game Over!)

[elvis_knits]

So the case on rofl is softclaiming?

[Yosarian2]

Yeah rofl, I need that lesson as much as people need to learn that asking someone why persuing your suspect is a scumtell isn't rolefishing. Zzz.

I want a full claim from rofl, because at the moment I absolutely don't believe him. If it takes a wagon to do it, (and it shouldn't given the circumstances) let's step up.

unvote, vote rofl

Die scum die.

Vote:SerialClergyman

"softclaiming" is not a scum tell, and I doubt it's in town's best interest to force the obv-town rofl to claim today. I'm pretty sure you don't have the town's best interests at heart here.

[ekiM]

I was under the impression that softclaiming is pretty scummy. Tajo softclaimed in Lynch All Lurkers and was forced to claim tracker (he was scum), although that was slightly different as he literally said "I have something I will pull out if I get more pressure on me, lay off".

I don't really know what to think here. Earlier Xyl said

Frankly, hinting at role info without claiming it (softclaiming) is a very scummy move, and if I thought roflcopter was serious I would be pressuring him to actually claim something concrete. The reason I didn't is that I don't think he has any chance of being serious.

Which I don't really understand; Xyl thought rofl was town "non-seriously" softclaiming? And now Yos says softclaiming isn't scummy at all. Which runs counter to what I've understood in the past.

Is softclaiming scummy? What should be done about it?

[ekiM]

Elvis you've put VP at neutral in your suspect list. What does this mean? You thought he was likely town because his wagon grew very quickly and your suspects were on it. Now you're not so sure in that line or argument? Or what?

Also can I ask which of your suspects were on that wagon? Me, iamausername, and SC?

Did you go back and read the things Xyl, Ojanen,myself said about VP that you seemed to discount? What do you think?

[Yosarian2]

I was under the impression that softclaiming is pretty scummy. Tajo softclaimed in Lynch All Lurkers and was forced to claim tracker (he was scum), although that was slightly different as he literally said "I have something I will pull out if I get more pressure on me, lay off".

If it's what rofl was doing, then hinting you might have information that person X is town in order to prevent them from being mislynched without actually claiming can be a pro-town thing to do. And, personally, I'm not actually sure if that's what he was doing or not, or if he just has a good read on me; and I think it's a good thing I can't actually know that because it means the scum probably don't know either.

What you're talking about is doing like a quasi-claim in order to defend yourself. That can be bad; I don't think it's really a scumtell, per ce, but I generally won't accept it as a defense.

But that's not what we're talking about here, we're talking about people attacking rofl because they think he might be a pro-town power role who was trying to share information without claiming, and attacking someone for that just seems absurd to me.

[ekiM]

I don't really see the pro-town motivation for saying stuff like that when you had very few votes on you, though. I can't see the scum motivation for it, either though. And we can't ask rofl why he did it without basically asking for a claim, which is obviously not great.

[Yosarian2]

I don't really see the pro-town motivation for saying stuff like that when you had very few votes on you, though. I can't see the scum motivation for it, either though. And we can't ask rofl why he did it without basically asking for a claim, which is obviously not great.

Yeah, I can't think of any reason he's do it as scum. Why, just to buddy up with me or something? I highly doubt that.

[Kmd4390]

Rofl and Serial aren't scum. Let's lynch someone else.

[mith]

Vote Count:

7 to lynch.

Kmd4390: 2 (elvis_knits, roflcopter)
PookyTheMagicalBear: 2 (Kmd4390, populartajo)
roflcopter: 2 (iamausername, SerialClergyman)
SerialClergyman: 2 (VP Baltar, Yosarian2)
VP Baltar: 2 (ekiM, Thesp)
charter: 1 (zu_Faul)

Not Voting: 2 (charter, PookyTheMagicalBear)

[ekiM]

I'm tending to agree with KMD here. rofl's... whatever it was... wasn't a very good move, but I don't think it's scummy enough to force a claim from him. And I can see why people push against moves they don't like, so pushing on rofl doesn't make SC scum to me.

KMD what do you think of VP Baltar?

[Kmd4390]

I think VP is town. Not as convinced as I am on Serial or Rofl, but still leaning town.

[mith]

Mod Note:

Caught up on the flavor scenes now.

[Thesp]

And I am still wondering about wagon speed (which made me think VP was likely town before).

Minivitational XI featured a quick (~36 hour) bandwagon lynch that ended up being on mafia. This was most certainly affected by a deadline, but it sticks out in my mind strongly as an instance where someone who was sort of scummy to many people suddenly got attention he previously didn't have. (I apologize in advance for linking to that game - reading parts of it still makes me want to quit the site, even though it was long ago.)

1. "There are two people who were attacking him yesterday who we now know are pro-town!" Translation: the scum killed someone last night who was attacking VP Balter yesterday, except no one seems to want to put it that way, I guess because if they did then it would be obvious that it was a weak WIFOM argument.

I'm not entirely convinced that the mafia killed Ojanen for pursuing VP Baltar (though there's a slight possiblity of it), I think it's more likely they killed Ojanen because it was extremely unlikely that she'd ever get lynched, given how many people were spouting her as town. However, with two of the people who were strongly on the town, I think it deflates at least a bit of the concern re: the speed of the wagon. (If not, it requires some far more specific concerns about it.)

2. "A goon cop was voting him!" Do you really think she had a guilty on him? It seems pretty clear to me that she didn't, reading her posts. She didn't "waffle" on her initial vote, she came out hard against eikM and stayed there for a long time.

I don't think it's clear at all that she didn't have a guilty on him, she said she was voting Ekim "for now", has an about face midday, aggressively pursues VP Baltar and never lets up and reaffirms her votes repeatedly. I don't think it's ironclad by any means, but I do think it's notable.

I've seen a couple of people state that they think VP Baltar is town - for those that havem can you explain to me why you think that? I don't see it at all.

Needs more VP Baltar/Yosarian2/Pooky death.

[iamausername]

I've thought about it, and I have come to the conclusion that this is for the best. I was hoping to get some more concrete claim from him before I did this, but any way I could see of trying to do that would just end up with everyone accusing me of rolefishing, and I think what we have is enough to hang him as the lying scum that he is anyway.

I have

reasons

to believe that rofl does not have the role he has been soft claiming. HINT HINT.

[ekiM]

I think iamausername is trying to tell us something.

unvote;
Vote: roflcopter.

[SerialClergyman]

I think iamausername is trying to tell us something.

ROLEFISHER SCUM!!!11one.

[VP Baltar]

So, SC, why are you not calling iam scummy?

Also, Kmd, wanna compromise on an ekiM wagon? I'm still very much in for that.

[SerialClergyman]

Why should I?

If your implication is that they're both softclaiming, you've missed the point. rofl has been shutting down the case on Yos2 since it started, regularly pushes cases against the people I think are town and uses this softclaiming excuse to defend people like yourself, elvis and yos2. The whole game he's been shutting down real scumhunting via a cloak and dagger softclaim that he calls anyone (well, specifically me) scummy for challenging in any way. And then pushes wagons because of a mysterious web of scum that almost never changes when the lynch flips town. Both BAB and Xyl's townflips barely changed his read on the game at all.

iam, on the other hand, has been ballsy enough to attack rofl all through yesterday and today and is now prepared to expose himself to danger because he so strongly believes that rofl is scum (and because any other method of attempting to question rofl results in rolefishing accusations).

So it's a real case of light and dark for me. I see plenty of scum motivation for rofl's actions and not much for iam's actions.

[Thesp]

I have

reasons

to believe that rofl does not have the role he has been soft claiming. HINT HINT.

I've read back over roflcopter's posts and don't see any softclaiming. Perhaps I'm oblivious? Could you point me somewhere?

[iamausername]

This:

3. In this post, rofl says that Claus has a solid case against Yos, but that Yos doesn't fit as a partner of BaB. So why, when BaB did NOT flip scum, has rofl gone ahead and started acting like he is confirmed town anyway? I think his post here was an attempt to placate Claus and push the BaB wagon through to mislynch, because he clearly had no intention of actually following up on this suspicion of Yos.

thats a very narrowminded view of what could possibly cause me to change my opinion between the end of day one and the beginning of day two

and this:

i was under the impression that xyl had understood the implied message the first time i told him to stop voting for yos, but apparently the tidal wave of people who demand more explanation has emboldened him to go ahead and pretend he doesn't catch my drift either.

are the clearest examples, I think.

[Thesp]

Gotcha. I think I want a full claim from roflcopter.

[Yosarian2]

I've thought about it, and I have come to the conclusion that this is for the best. I was hoping to get some more concrete claim from him before I did this, but any way I could see of trying to do that would just end up with everyone accusing me of rolefishing, and I think what we have is enough to hang him as the lying scum that he is anyway.

I have

reasons

to believe that rofl does not have the role he has been soft claiming. HINT HINT.

...you do realize that there are three different roles in the mod post that can get innocents on people, and that multiple people with the same role are possible, right?

[iamausername]

Yes, I am fully aware of those facts.

[Kmd4390]

Iam, if you have reason to believe Rofl is scum that isn't right in front of us, just say so.

VP, I could go for ekiM if the support is there. I want to see what Iam may or may not have on Rofl first though.

[elvis_knits]

SO now iamausername is soft counterclaiming rofl before rofl actually claims. What are we doing here people?

It strikes me that the way we are going about this is awfully messed up.

iamausername, if you have a guilty result on rofl, you might as well say so. I am not lynching him without a full statement of that. If you just think that he can't have the role you think he's hinting at because you have that role, then... what you have done is stupid because we are not assured which roles we have and what number.