Mini 828 - ProzacMod 3 - Lost Mafia - Over

[curiouskarmadog]

I will...and then you will respond...and then I will respond..and we will go back and forth..blah blah blah

VP, you think I am scum?

[curiouskarmadog]

VP, I will even help you lynch me (ie my vote) if you take my wager...come on man..I am scum right...lets do this thing.

[VP Baltar]

I'm not into pissing contests. Now play the game and stop pouting.

[curiouskarmadog]

not a pissing contest buddy. this is the game...I think I have nailed you as scum. you want everybody to think that you believe I am scum....but you are not willing to back up your suggestions when even a vote.

that leads me to believe you really dont think i am scum. if that is true..why are suggesting I am?

come on pal, you so sure I am scum? take the wager..put up or shut up. I am vanilla, this is the best way I can help the town. take the wager. I am not going to go away with this.

[curiouskarmadog]

also, answer the question...

do you think I am scum?

[VP Baltar]

As effective as false dilemmas are, I'm actually trying to figure this game out and what you are doing is in no way helping town if you are indeed town. The best way you can help town is to actually analyze the information we have and try to find scum from it.

As I asked you before, apart from myself who do you think is scum and why?

[VP Baltar]

do you think I am scum?

You are one of my scum suspects, yes. Does that guarantee you are scum? As much as I like to trust my abilities, I have been wrong before. Answering my questions would go a long way toward me be able to say with more confidence either way.

[ZONEACE]

not a pissing contest buddy. this is the game...I think I have nailed you as scum. you want everybody to think that you believe I am scum....but you are not willing to back up your suggestions when even a vote.

that leads me to believe you really dont think i am scum. if that is true..why are suggesting I am?

come on pal, you so sure I am scum? take the wager..put up or shut up. I am vanilla, this is the best way I can help the town. take the wager. I am not going to go away with this.

this post is completely childish and not helpful.

[curiouskarmadog]

LOL

as of right now...I think you and Emp are probably a scum pair.

your turn...DO YOU THINK I AM SCUM? Answer the question. You have already said that you would have no problem with my lynch today...but now I have backed you in a corner you cant even admit that you think I am scum.

called your bluff scum.

[VP Baltar]

do you think I am scum?

do you think I am scum?

You are one of my scum suspects, yes. Does that guarantee you are scum? As much as I like to trust my abilities, I have been wrong before. Answering my questions would go a long way toward me be able to say with more confidence either way.

[curiouskarmadog]

crosspost..

ZA, maybe it is, coming from you it has got to be.

but if VP thinks I am scum, soooooo badly, then he should have no problem taking the wager. it is helpful...I just proved he is not willing to back his "beliefs" with a single vote. I am calling his bluff.

I even offered to help him lynch me.....look kids, I am vanilla...losing me today a.) is not that big of a deal, b.) avoids us losing yet another power role, AND c.) will give you a ton of information...like, was I truthful about my thougths on CB's claim and what not. it will also show you who pushed my lynch and why.

take my wager.

[curiouskarmadog]

bold is me

CB's claim indirectly confirms what reck said BECAUSE of the island and what my PM says (already explained this, are you "not paying attention"?)

VP, would like to hear your case against me....3 points? maybe a vote? or do you want to wait to see which wagon gets bigger first?

So, you are willing to argue that because reckoner didn't type his claim out with the same spacing as yours that his claim is less believable, even though it has all of the same exact parts in the same exact order and was presented before anyone else had claimed?

it is not exactly the same, if you were vanilla town you would know this.

Are you serious? Do you normally make sure that when you type your claim out it matches the spacing of your PM?

yes I am serious. and no, hardly anyone does. what is your point? CB did, and it matched almost perfectly. when rereading (versus just skimming) the game, I caught that line about "can change"...I unvoted...I still have trouble swallowing the claim, but not willing to lynch reck today

And don't try to give me the 'I was just skimming' argument because you were relatively active at that time and seemed to be up to speed on things.

just did. relatively active compared to what? really? want to go back and check that fact again scum bag?

As for reasons why you could be scum:

1) Your criteria for believing one claim versus another are simply ridiculous. I understand your spacing argument, and it's quite idiotic. The spacing of my PM is different from what both CB and Reckoner wrote. So, what does that prove? Nothing since they are not copying and pasting from the PMs

well, reck claimed cop, CB claimed vanilla...I am vanilla..CB and my PM match...I am sorry yours does not...this makes ME scum...this is not a point

2) Your conniption fit at me calling you potential scum looks bad to me. This is coupled with your pointless OMGUS because I said you weren't following along. What is also interesting is that first you played it like you were indeed not following along (making the argument that as scum you are inclined to follow along), and now you are edging closer and closer to saying that I am misrepping you because you have allegedly already explained the things I have been asking. Let me ask you then, do you think you have been paying close attention to this game?

I am now yes...so this point is what? you think I a scum, because I felt your misrepping me was scummy? when I said I was caught up..I was caught up.

3) You are continually pushing the game toward the flavor issue, which is completely pointless and not helpful in finding scum. Who do you think is scum, apart from myself and why?

you right..I am mostly wrong about flavor, or my theory is flawed...just admitted that and could it back.

4) Your reasons for voting me are quite possibly the worst I have heard all game:

my main reason is that you are saying that a.) I am not paying attention to the game which is untrue...

At best this is a difference in opinion. At worst you are openly stating your are OMGUSing me.

b.) that that is scummy (if it was true..)...

Ok, so your second reason is that your first reason points out I'm scummy? wtf?

c.) you were kept pushing on the CB lynch after I vouched for the claim..

Oh man, you're so right, I should totally believe you because you said so...and stuff.

Also, I noticed you didn't reply to some of my counter arguments to the rest of your "reasons". I'll cut out the stuff about the claims that you answered:

this is a scummy move...the game is slowing so you want to stir something else...

What is the scum motivation for that?

not getting into a WIFOM argument with you..I dont know what your motivation was. this is a silly question.

in that game VP, did I not pay attention..or did I pay attention?

Honestly, I can't speak to this very well. I died the night after I replaced into that game. At your hands in fact. I didn't pay close enough attention after I was gone to fairly assess if you were closely paying attention or not. I thought you were more townish in that game than here, but you also were actually hunting the other scum team, which is likely not the case here.

I was also scum in that game....was there a question here?

re: claims- the recently completed ViPod had full claims written by the mod. You said you know of a game that had them. They are not impossible, which is why I said that a claim's wording and spacing should not be the sole reason that you believe someone's claim. It is a possiblity that the mod wrote full claims, why is that impossible in your mind since you have indeed seen it before?

I said it is not likely...AGAIN out of 60 games, I have seen it once.

ok questions answered...what do you think?..I got to be scum right?

take my wager..

[curiouskarmadog]

could=took it back..

response was full of errors (you instead of your...a instead of am)...fustrated

taking a break..will check back later

wager is STILL on the table though.

[canadianbovine]

....what the fuck is going on.

[VP Baltar]

Honestly CB, your guess is as good as mine.

[canadianbovine]

ckd and juls are sun and jin..

there was implied that they are related somehow.

usually in a lovers/brothers/ w/e situation, one is town, and one is scum..

CKD is sure that i am vt because our role pms match up, so im going to.

Vote: Juls

[canadianbovine]

**

unvote: vote: juls

ill help you out modd

[xRECKONERx]

Um, okay, I've already answered the question posed to me god knows how many times. I DID NOT RECEIVE A PM IN RESPONSE TO MY QUESTION.

THERE.

As for now, I'm in support of a CKD or Emp lynch.

[Juls]

ckd and juls are sun and jin..

there was implied that they are related somehow.

usually in a lovers/brothers/ w/e situation, one is town, and one is scum..

CKD is sure that i am vt because our role pms match up, so im going to.

Vote: Juls

Wrong. Santos and Juls are Sun and Jin but thanks for playing.

[canadianbovine]

ckd and juls are sun and jin..

there was implied that they are related somehow.

usually in a lovers/brothers/ w/e situation, one is town, and one is scum..

CKD is sure that i am vt because our role pms match up, so im going to.

Vote: Juls

Wrong. Santos and Juls are Sun and Jin but thanks for playing.

well their goes my solid case.

i had a great time, and i hope i can come back on your next show!

what is your role-ationship with Santos?

[Juls]

None that I am aware of.

[EmpTyger]

Quick clarification I just caught: I typoed in [918]. That should read: “

I’m feeling much happier about CDB.

If

CKD

CDB

were mafia…”

Need to look into permutations involving CB, not sure I’m going to get to tonight. But CB’s still today’s lynch. [1090] is hilariously desperate, and not just because of the “CKD is Sun” error:

ckd and juls are sun and jin..

there was implied that they are related somehow.

usually in a lovers/brothers/ w/e situation, one is town, and one is scum..

CKD is sure that i am vt because our role pms match up, so im going to.

Vote: Juls

So, CB thinks that CKD is an innocent with a *non-vanilla* role.
Because CB thinks CKD accurately knows a *vanilla* role PM.

---

CB:

<snip>

2) CB. Why is Santos doing this drawn-out theory-launching *now*?
<snip>

how does the bolded make me a possible scum partner?
<snip>

If you and Santos are both mafia, he launches this theatrical theory to stall your lynch. If you’re innocent and Santos is guilty, I don’t see why he doesn’t keep his mouth shut and wait for you to swing.

What’s your explanation for what Santos was doing? (Keeping in mind of course that he’s claimed Sun, not CKD.)

---

VP:

Why is Juls “obvtown”? I read her as being shut-up-Santos-before-you-do-more-damage.

Mostly meta reasons. Juls and I have been playing a lot of games together recently (in which she was always town), so my gut says town on her based on that. I'm not ruling out the possibility of her being scum, but for the today it's not even really a consideratioin of mine.

Don’t like this a lot.

1) You go from “obvtown” to “gut for meta reasons that only you have”.
2) I’m leery that you apparently need me to point out the logical fallacy here. (Consider the following analogy: “Juls hasn’t been eaten by giant purple alligators in your many recent games. Juls was town in your many recent games. Therefore, since Juls hasn’t been eaten by giant purple alligators in this game, she’s town in this game!”)
3) More seriously, you’re implying that if Juls were mafia, she’d stupidly behave so obviously differently that you’d be able to catch her? That’s almost implausibly absurd thinking on your part.
4) I’m rather dubious that there’s a precedent that explains Juls behavior here. She seemed to be trying as hard as she did anything up until that point to get the day to end before Santos spoke (once ignoring my directly pointing out that we were still waiting on Santos). Then she tried to convince him to drop his argument. And she abandons the very principle she was arguing to do the very thing she is allegedly arguing against.

For those of us who haven’t played a lot of games recently with Juls and you, can you provide any specifics of what is so telling to you?

---

Juls:
Just out of curiosity, do you have anything to say about VP’s gut read of you?

---

CKD:
You’re betting your life that mafia role PMs look nothing like town role PMs? How do you know with that much certainty what mafia role PMs will look like?

[Juls]

Emptyger, I am sick of you characterizing me as someone who was "trying" to not allow Santos to explain his theory. I stated many days ago that I intended to vote for CB. Santos had TONS of time to post his theory. Even so, I put CB at L-2 (which I admittedly thought was L-1) but it was NOT the hammer. I have stated on numerous occassions that I didn't think name-claim/alignment discussion was going to lead us anywhere. I did, claim my name in response to Santos to prove a point to him that he thought I was scummy yet I had a character name that was an equivalent of his. I don't think anyone could argue that Jiin would be more/less scummy than Sun.

As far as VP goes, I have felt good about his play this game and unlike him I do have a comparison to go off because he has been scum in every game I have played in with him. I have kept in the back of my head that he COULD be buddying me and using my previous reads on him to adjust his style. Also, I have nothing to hide regarding my meta. Everyone is free to look at ALL my games in the wiki and see my playstyle as both scum and town.

As for his assessment of me...I am indifferent about it. I do like your point about the purple alligator and I would like to hear his response to it. You, however, seem to be going back and forth about him. I seem to recall you saying you felt good about him before now you seem to be going a different direction. Is that a fair assessment of your stance?

[EmpTyger]

Juls:

Emptyger, I am sick of you characterizing me as someone who was "trying" to not allow Santos to explain his theory.
<snip>

Fine, let me cite actual evidence:

---

Also, I have an enormously favorable argument to present

in favor

of ZONEACE's position, but I would like to hear from those 'neutral' folks, please.

(Same page, same day, 2 hours later...)

mod:

I would like a votecount please. I think my vote on CB would be the hammer so I am trying to hold off so conversation can wrap up. Does anyone (besides CB) object to my hammer? Is there more to be discussed?

(I call you on it. You plead misunderstanding. Yet a few days and pages later...)

Thank you. I will post my theory, POA, tomorrow now that everyone is playing.

(Same page, same day, 14 hours later...)

OK, the conversation has died down. I am still good with his lynch and it seems others are as well. No need in holding this up any longer.

vote: canadianbovine

---

There’s the evidence in support of my characterization. You have any evidence for an alternate characterization, or are you just going to say “you're wrong because I say so”?

<snip>
You, however, seem to be going back and forth about him. I seem to recall you saying you felt good about him before now you seem to be going a different direction. Is that a fair assessment of your stance?

Not really. As I explained in [918], I felt a little better about VP because I didn’t see him aligned with Reckoner. And I still think that. But I’m looking at the permutations involving VP as well as the ones involving Reckoner, especially after comments like [1068].

Out of curiosity, how has VP’s play been different here, to you?

[ChannelDelibird]

No mod-question for me yet.

ckd and juls are sun and jin..

there was implied that they are related somehow.

usually in a lovers/brothers/ w/e situation, one is town, and one is scum..

CKD is sure that i am vt because our role pms match up, so im going to.

Vote: Juls

This is a terrible post. We've spent virtually this whole thread agreeing that outguessing the mod = bad, and now you not only assume that a) Sun and Jin are lovers in this game, but also that b) one lover in EVERY pair must be scum. And the whole thing is done without any actual evidence against Juls. This is desperate, forced, and futile.

It also appears that CB can't satisfactorily explain why he thought it prudent to post in Korean. It now looks strongly to me, after the above proof that CB is partial to a bit of mod-outguessing, that he thought Juliet was a risky name to claim, and was crumbing someone more acceptable. I think I could lynch CB today.

In other news, Santos makes me want to bash my head repeatedly against a brick wall. A CB-Santos scumpair makes some sense.

Next post: looking at non-CB cases.