Newbie 661 - GAME OVER

[Nto]

After looking back and going over things I have to say that I agree with the case against spooky. The biggest thing against him so far for me is that he just dropped off. With that being said. I am going to hold off on voting for him until we find out if he is in hiding or dropped from the game. Hopefully we will hear something today.

I still can't get a read on Haterade but maybe I'll know more after his next post.

[DynamoXI]

Spooky has commented in almost a week so Im raising a few eyebrows here. Also where is Haterades next post with all of his reasoning?

[Mastermind of Sin]

Third Vote Count of Day 1:

Spooky - (Kairyuu, slayer645, Macavenger)

Macavenger - (Save The Dragons)
DynamoXI - (Spooky)
Kairyuu - (Haterade)

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

Searching for a replacement for Spooky.

[Save The Dragons]

Spooky dropped.

Nto still could be scum.

I eagerly await:

Haterade's post
Spooky's replacement
Macavenger saying anything

and probably won't have much to say until one of those three events occur.

[slayer645]

if most of us think spooky was scum his replacement might have a very short game...
assuming his replacement would be scum as well? I think thats how it works correct me if I'm wrong.

I would assume if spooky had been town he would have at least attempted some sort of defence instead of going absent on us when we suspected him.
might it not be better in this case to go ahead and lynch spooky than to bring someone new in?
I know I wouldn't want to be a replacement in a game where everyone suspected me already cause the last guy blew it.

honestly I'd be shocked as hell if spooky turned out to be town, but I think thats very very unlikly really.
and I'd rather see spooky lynched and be wrong, than be right about spooky and have his replacement throw us off track.

and yes more disscussion is good for the town, but I wonder if theres going to be much in the way of meaningful disscusion till the spooky issues known one way or another?

I'm not saying a rush to lynch would be a good thing, and I'm no expert on mafia (

the game

) stratigy. I'm just wondering if maby It would be better than replacing someone I'm almost positive is scum?

I like to know what the more experianced players think? Kairyuu, STD (unfortunate accronym btw.),

[Save The Dragons]

if most of us think spooky was scum his replacement might have a very short game...
assuming his replacement would be scum as well? I think thats how it works correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes.

I would assume if spooky had been town he would have at least attempted some sort of defence instead of going absent on us when we suspected him.

No.

might it not be better in this case to go ahead and lynch spooky than to bring someone new in?
I know I wouldn't want to be a replacement in a game where everyone suspected me already cause the last guy blew it.

No.

FOS: Slayer

honestly I'd be shocked as hell if spooky turned out to be town, but I think thats very very unlikly really.

Can you personally paraphrase the case against spooky for me, please?

and I'd rather see spooky lynched and be wrong, than be right about spooky and have his replacement throw us off track.

Or potentially correct spooky's mistakes?

and yes more disscussion is good for the town, but I wonder if theres going to be much in the way of meaningful disscusion till the spooky issues known one way or another?

There will be.

I'm not saying a rush to lynch would be a good thing,

You could have fooled me...

and I'm no expert on mafia (

the game

) stratigy. I'm just wondering if maby It would be better than replacing someone I'm almost positive is scum?

Are you?

I like to know what the more experianced players think? Kairyuu, STD (unfortunate accronym btw.),

Yeah, it is pretty unfortunate but I've made it mine, and I think it's awesome.

If spooky's town, it's a good idea to let the replacement at least try to explain him/herself. If spooky's scum, then there's more chance for them to make mistakes. (yes, the reverse is true: if he's scum, then the replacement could fool us, and if he's town, the replacement could screw up.)

As for discussion, Haterade has promised us some, and I'm eagerly awaiting Macavenger's next post, whatever it may be, so I've promised us discussion.

The problem is, I can't decide if you're trying to pull a fast one and make us more likely to lynch Spooky, or if you're just trying to pitch an idea that makes sense to you. It's not a terrible idea, but it does make me suspicious.

[Save The Dragons]

and probably won't have much to say until one of those three events occur.

I'm a liar.

[slayer645]

Can you personally paraphrase the case against spooky for me, please?

I'll give it a shot,

1. right off the bat spooky jumped on someone for random voting in the random voting stage. (post 25)
3. trying to get votes for a STD wagon (posts 25-30)
2. tried to use post times as a reasion for Vote hopping to a someone with the most votes creating a bandwagon. (post 34)
3. when under suspision spooky drop off the face of the earth.
4. haterade's constant defence of spooky, just sits wrong with me, that and the more emotional posts at the begining of his arguements. because as far as I know the only two players who are aware of being on the same team are the scum. (no masions in this setup right?)
5. he just feels scummy to me, It's just a gut reaction and not really any sort of concreate proof, but there it is I don't expect anyone else to vote based on my gut reaction but I have to pay attention to it.

and I'd rather see spooky lynched and be wrong, than be right about spooky and have his replacement throw us off track.

Or potentially correct spooky's mistakes?

there is that small posibility, but those mistakes of spookys are going to make me suspect spookys replacement unless theres some very good evadence that they are town, and if there were such evedence I think spooky would have presented it instead of disappearing.

I'm not saying a rush to lynch would be a good thing,

You could have fooled me...

apperently

and I'm no expert on mafia (

the game

) stratigy. I'm just wondering if maby It would be better than replacing someone I'm almost positive is scum?

Are you?

am i what?

almost

possitive spookys scum... Yes, an expert on the stratigy of this game...No

If spooky's town, it's a good idea to let the replacement at least try to explain him/herself. If spooky's scum, then there's more chance for them to make mistakes. (yes, the reverse is true: if he's scum, then the replacement could fool us, and if he's town, the replacement could screw up.)

Yes theres always the posiblility however remote

(as far as I'm conserned.)

that a mistake has been made and that a replacement might be able to correct it.

As for discussion, Haterade has promised us some, and I'm eagerly awaiting Macavenger's next post, whatever it may be, so I've promised us discussion.

agreed.

The problem is, I can't decide if you're trying to pull a fast one and make us more likely to lynch Spooky, or if you're just trying to pitch an idea that makes sense to you. It's not a terrible idea, but it does make me suspicious.

nope no fast ones from me, just I wouldn't want to be put into the position any replacement for spooky'll be in and wondering if maby it might be better to spare some poor player that.

ah well thats what the world's comming to, you try to show some compasion to a stranger and you get FOSed....

@STD spooky was origanally tring to start collecting votes against you before vote hoping on dynamo as a more likely wagon (post 27-34) what are your thoughts on that?

[Haterade]

My case against Kairyuu must be prefaced with this explanation about the way I play mafia.

Imagine yourself as mafia for a second (whether you are in this game, or you aren’t). If you’re mafia, you’re spending the majority of your time trying to look like a townsperson so that you can blend in with townspeople. Your main concern is not doing something stupid and getting caught doing things that would make you look like mafia. This is imperative of any mafia player, I would think. At least, whether or not you agree with me, that’s how I would play – I’d make sure I’m as townie like as possible. I can’t imagine townies playing any other way.

Now, let’s take a look at Kairyuu’s posts, keeping this in mind.

I just read through what's happened so far and here's what I'm getting:

Dynamo hasn't really done anything scummy yet. He started with a random vote (on me) and (somewhat unusually, even in a newbie game) was forced to defend himself in the random voting stage. Some people seemed to think that his defense made him scummy. I do not agree. His OMGUS vote against Nto was a bit odd, but in all likelyhood that was just a bit of noobishness on his part. On the lookout just in case.

minor FOS: Dynamo

Slayer originally came off as the most scummy to me because of his demanding explanation from Dynamo right away in the second post, but he didn't really raise any red flags for me since then, even speaking against a quicklynch when Dynamo was put at L-2. The only thing that bothered me about that was that he said a quicklynch was a bad idea but then didn't pull his own vote off. For that he gets a few more points in my book than Dynamo's OMGUS.

FOS: Slayer

And then there's Spooky. He is by far the scummiest player to me thus far. He first voted STD because STD placed a random vote in the random voting stage. That alone would only get him a few scum points in my book. However, he then uses a rather scummy tactic of using post times to justify vote hopping from STD to Dynamo, putting him at L-2. I think he was reaching in an attempt to jump on the newly formed wagon. The combination of jumping on a random vote, reaching horribly to 'post times' of all things, and vote hopping lead me to

Vote: Spooky

And now to the questions:

@Dynamo: Why did you OMGUS vote Nto? Did you have any reason beyond the fact that he voted for you?

@Slayer: Why, if you were worried about a quicklynch of Dynamo, didn't you pull your own vote off of him and take him down to only 2 votes?

@Spooky: Do you have any concrete reasons to vote for Dynamo other than his posting times? Also, can you explain why

you

would jump from STD, who you found scummy for his random vote, to Dynamo, who there is the early stages of an unfounded wagon on?

Let’s sum up this post: talking. “Talk talk talk, hmm I thought this guy was scum but now I guess not, now let’s ask people questions.”

This argument is not an argument trying to say that Kairyuu is “too towniesh.” Well, it

kind of

is. Let’s assume hypothetically for a second that Kairyuu is mafia. Does this not fit sublimely into exactly what a Mafioso would say? It’s quite a bit of talking about things that would normally be relevant (“well earlier I thought that dynamo was scum, but then I read later he wasn’t, so ok we’re cool then!”) but just aren’t. Quite a few FOSs and votes are thrown out there in order to imply that he has suspicions, but they’re never with any real tenacity so as to avoid any links if that person turns out to be something that they don’t expect. Or to create links in terms of bussing/getting away from his scumbuddy.

The rest is questions, which I think can easily be fathomed as ways to look involved and quizzical, like a townie would.

Ah. I just noticed. Spooky, you're at L-2. You might want to start explaining yourself. And quickly, as you may have noticed that there is one person ready to vote for you if you can't explain your actions properly.

I don't think that its quite time for a claim yet, considering that you haven't gotten to L-1, but if you get another vote then you'd better have the best argument ever or you may just be dying soon.

@Everyone else: If Spooky gets to L-1, please do not hammer until he has had a chance to explain himself, I have read too many games where the D1 lynch happens before the lynchee got a chance to say anything and it doesnt often turn out well.

Actually, I have a better idea. If he gets to L-1 I will pull my vote until he can explain and if people still want to lynch him I will drop the hammer myself. That way I'm the one who is at fault if he turns up town (which I highly doubt he will as he seems to have disappeared as soon as people started voting for him).

This is all fairly obvious stuff everyone should already notice, but just listen to the caution here. He wants to make sure that nobody does things like lynch Spooky, because god forbid Kairyuu thought he was scummy but being scummy I guess isn’t a good enough reason to lynch someone. “I think spooky is scum, but don’t lynch him.” That level of caution cannot possibly be genuine. This post is where I think Kairyuu totally slipped up, because I can’t possibly fathom thinking that someone is scummy but not wanting to lynch them under every single circumstance. Hell, I’d be happy at this point if Kairyuu got lynched – I think he’s scum.

@Haterade: I would first like to thank you for finally posting some content, even if I disagree with most of it. I will also remove my HOS on you because you have finally provided what we have been asking you for.

You started with this:

First, note that this is the 40th post of the game and everyone is still in random voting stage.

I have to disagree with you on this point. Even assuming that some of the people who were active at that point were voting as if it was the random voting stage, Spooky was not one of them. He even stated:

I didn't random vote.

I voted for Save the Dragons because he didn't have a reason for his vote.

Therefore, to Spooky, it was not the random voting phase because he was justifying his votes.

Now onto what you claim that the case against Spooky actually

is

.

The entirety of this case though is just total hogwash. Here are the criteria:
1) Spooky voted for someone because they voted for someone in the random voting stage.
2) Spooky uses posting times to justify a vote switch to someone else.

1. Point one is spot on. This is what made me look a bit closer at him.
2. The post times are not as important as the fact that he was vote hopping in order to get on the beginnings of a bandwagon. The post time usage is merely an example of reaching, which isn't all that suspicious on its own.
Now for what you missed.
3. The vote hopping, which I mentioned in number two.
4. The fact that, as soon as he was challenged, he disappeared from the game completely and has failed to respond to calls for explanations.

Now to the next paragraph. I would first like to point out that Spooky did not, in fact, acknowlege anything, because as soon as he was accused, he stopped posting.

So I'm opportunistic? Based on your reasoning, it's possible, but not likely. But that is only if you assume that I have no basis for my argument, which I disagree with. And even assuming that I originally was reaching somewhat (I don't consider quoting three scummy actions in four posts reaching) Spooky incriminated himself further by not responding when questioned, so

he

obviously thought that my argument had decent backing.

Now to your argument against Slayer. You say he is bandwagoning. How can he bandwagon when there is no wagon to begin with? There was only one vote at that point.

And now for Macavenger. You find him suspicious because his post made it sound as if he had developed a case against Spooky on his own, even though it had already been stated. This is an odd thing to say when most people would consider someone scummy when all they do is follow the crowd and

don't

try to provide their own take on things. Also, I just reread his post, and his case against Spooky seems rather original to me, even though it uses the same general points.

And now to my favorite part. I get to point out an extremely interesting thing that I noticed in your case against Macavenger. You said that you consider it a major scum tell when someone uses another person's argument and tries to make it seem original (I can see where you're coming from but I don't think its entirely true). According to your own criteria, this case is even weaker than the case against Spooky. You see one thing, in one post, and use it to say Macavenger is scummy. I used three things, over the course of four posts, and added a fourth thing due to the lack of subsequent posts, and you called it stupid and weak.

I must ask this question then: Why is your argument against Macavenger valid while mine against Spooky isn't, even though mine has more backing, shows a trend, and features a more widely accepted scum tell? (Note: I am not discounting your argument, and will even go so far as to place a

FOS: Macavenger

in addition to questioning him at the end.

@STD: You make a good point. One post out of four with any content does smell a bit scummy, but in my opinion it isn't enough to warrant a vote, just a FOS and a question or two.

Now for my question to you: Why is Macavenger scummy enough to warrant a vote when Haterade has done virtually the exact same thing and you think he's town (this last one was the only one so far with anything other than 'you guys are all stupid, and so are your arguments')?
I'm not at all suspicious of you, I just want to know your reasoning on the matter, as it strikes me as slightly quirky.

@Macavenger: Haterade seems to think that you took my argument and tried to make it seem as though you came up with it on your own. What's your take on that? Also, could you provide your opinions on the events that have occurred since you voted for Spooky?

This post is just defensive and I don’t really want to respond to it because there’s no content to respond to. Just word after word after word when you could have just said “I disagree” 20 times and we would have left it at that.

Also, I didn’t think that Macavenger was scum yet at all, but I just found his little bit interesting. Perhaps scummy. I can’t really tell yet. I don’t know what you were trying to do by twisting my words and saying I created an “argument” against him, perhaps being way too defensive ?

[Save The Dragons]

@ Haterade: After Kariyuu tears up your argument against him to shreds, I'm going to go back through and point out any fallacies you made.

@ Slayer:

I'll give it a shot,

1. right off the bat spooky jumped on someone for random voting in the random voting stage. (post 25)
3. trying to get votes for a STD wagon (posts 25-30)
2. tried to use post times as a reasion for Vote hopping to a someone with the most votes creating a bandwagon. (post 34)
3. when under suspision spooky drop off the face of the earth.
4. haterade's constant defence of spooky, just sits wrong with me, that and the more emotional posts at the begining of his arguements. because as far as I know the only two players who are aware of being on the same team are the scum. (no masions in this setup right?)
5. he just feels scummy to me, It's just a gut reaction and not really any sort of concreate proof, but there it is I don't expect anyone else to vote based on my gut reaction but I have to pay attention to it.

If you aren't scum, please don't take this personally.
If you are scum, die die die.

This case is very weak. Like I said at the beginning of the post, I'll let Spooky's replacement speak for him/herself before I go after it, though (unless there's high demand.)

I call this game: Macavenger and Slayer are scum. I'd love to see some posts by Headbuddy just to make sure.

@STD spooky was origanally tring to start collecting votes against you before vote hoping on dynamo as a more likely wagon (post 27-34) what are your thoughts on that?

My vote was looking for a response. Spooky took the bait, but I see him as more likely to be a townie, because it seemed like he was legitimately looking for scum. When he switched to Dynamo, I think he actually found a more valid target, because voting for someone who did a random vote is less likely to be fruitful than voting for someone who he has more information on, imo. But I don't know what Spooky was thinking, so I can't really say much on his behalf. The replacement can't really, either, so Spooky leaving could have screwed us over.

[Kairyuu]

You have got to be kidding me. It happened again. I spent 4 hours typing up a MASSIVE post, and now its gone. Plus I'm probably going to be grounded when I get back from work. I'll say what I can now, but I may not be able to defend myself from further accusations for awhile.

1. Slayer: You are contradicting yourself in an attempt to lynch Spooky but disentangle yourself from his lynch. This is scummy. More scummy than what Spooky has done.

unvote

and

vote: Slayer

2. Haterade: Your argument is total WIFOM and is baseless. I had a long argument for you but I don't have time to rewrite it. STD can probably do it though.

I'm sorry I can't get the original post up, and that I may not be back for (probably) about a week. Please don't replace me, I will be back when I'm not grounded (assuming I do get grounded).

[Save The Dragons]

Two words: Notepad. Wait, that's one word.

[Save The Dragons]

I'll probably switch to Slayer

1) When/if macavenger returns
2) If we get closer to the deadline

But I probably won't do it until after Spooky's replacement + Headbuddy comes back or is replaced.

Mod: can you prod headbuddy?

I'll probably say what I was going to say about both cases sometime later, probably in a couple of hours.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Lindisfarne replaces Spooky. Headbuddy will be prodded.

[Save The Dragons]

Excellent. Then I'll only do Haterade's case on Kariyuu, and wait for Lindisfarne to speak.

Let me preface this with the fact that since I don't know Kariyuu's alignment, I can only speak on his behalf on points against him that are logical fallacies. I will not try to defend him, I will simple point out where the argument is valid and invalid.

Imagine yourself as mafia for a second (whether you are in this game, or you aren’t). If you’re mafia, you’re spending the majority of your time trying to look like a townsperson so that you can blend in with townspeople. Your main concern is not doing something stupid and getting caught doing things that would make you look like mafia. This is imperative of any mafia player, I would think. At least, whether or not you agree with me, that’s how I would play – I’d make sure I’m as townie like as possible. I can’t imagine townies playing any other way.

Now, let’s take a look at Kairyuu’s posts, keeping this in mind.

Great. So your system for catching mafia gets triggered whenever someone plays as a townie. In your logic, that means you think that every person is suspicious, because townies and mafia act like townies.

This argument is not an argument trying to say that Kairyuu is “too towniesh.” Well, it

kind of

is.
Let’s assume hypothetically for a second that Kairyuu is mafia. Does this not fit sublimely into exactly what a Mafioso would say? It’s quite a bit of talking about things that would normally be relevant (“well earlier I thought that dynamo was scum, but then I read later he wasn’t, so ok we’re cool then!”) but just aren’t. Quite a few FOSs and votes are thrown out there in order to imply that he has suspicions, but they’re never with any real tenacity so as to avoid any links if that person turns out to be something that they don’t expect. Or to create links in terms of bussing/getting away from his scumbuddy. The rest is questions, which I think can easily be fathomed as ways to look involved and quizzical, like a townie would.

This is where the "Too Townie" tell falls apart.

First of all, it's WIFOM. Isn't that what a mafiaoso would say? Well, isn't that what a town person would say? Yes, so clearly you can't argue the case that "what if he's mafia?" because you have not proven him to be town or scum, you've just basically said he could be either, but ignored the fact that he could be town.

Second of all, if you assume someone's mafia, then of course what they say is going to look scummy.

Third of all, there is no such thing as being too townie. Mafia can't act townier than the town. That's ridiculous. Town, by nature of being town, act like town, however they choose to act. It's like saying that I can act more like Micheal Phelps than Micheal Phelps can.

“I think spooky is scum, but don’t lynch him.” That level of caution cannot possibly be genuine. This post is where I think Kairyuu totally slipped up, because I can’t possibly fathom thinking that someone is scummy but not wanting to lynch them under every single circumstance.

This is clearly not what he said. I really don't know how you missed the words "until he has had a chance to explain himself" but I guess you did some how.

Unrelated to the above:

Also, I didn’t think that Macavenger was scum yet at all, but I just found his little bit interesting. Perhaps scummy.

I find this statement ironic.

[Nto]

Hello Lindisfarne, Welcome. Can't wait to hear your thoughts

[Lindisfarne]

Hello folks, glad to be a part of the game.

I've been waiting the past two days to get into this game, reading over the proceedings constantly.

I may be slightly new to this game...but the first thing I noticed was how flat out aggressive most of you are. In the modes of this game I've played in real life, you rarely, if ever lynch on the first day. The likelihood is too high of nailing a townie, and with mafia subtly orchestrating everyone's decision, that likelihood rises even further.

Another thing I would like to say: Shame on you townies. Did any of you stop to actually look at spooky's posts? He has 8 posts so far on this website, all from this one game. This was his first game on mafiascum, and none of you townies investigated this or tried to mention it in his defense, so eager were you for blood. granted yes, some of you pulled the whole "Well I'm likely going to vote for him unless he can come up with a nice defense for himself" Major mafia tell in my book. Also notice, has he posted in any other threads or games since this one? No. Was spooky just trying to ignore this game because to him it was a loosing battle? c'mon folks, the game was 3 pages in, even an idiot could of and would of attempted a defense. Some things happen in life that take us away from the computer or other games for awhile.

I see votes flying around like mad, so I'm going to start by

unvote

-ing spooky's original claim for now.

Now, four people who have mostly stuck out to me in this game: Haterade, STD, Kairyuu, and slayer.

Haterade really stepped up to bat to defend spooky, although went about it a bit in the wrong way. He was trying to slow things down a bit, realizing how soon about a lynch was coming, a normal mafia member would of jumped on the bandwagon, in an attempted to get rid of a townie. That raised a nice white flag to me saying "townie".

However.

Although I'm really disliking Kairyuu's game style (he is one of the most aggressive ones here) and have several warning flags over it, your constant attempts to discredit or disprove him have little substance. Perhaps that is you being a bit too defensive, but to me personally, it lowered that "townie" flag I had up a bit. I'm keeping an eye on you.

STD: You are playing very intelligently. You seem to have been flying under the radar from suspicion, which in my book, raises a bit of a flag. However, before you even posted your last few topics, I'm had my suspicions over Slayer. seeing how harshly he pushed to have spooky lynched, when, if you look back at all the evidence, there is so little there, was a big red flag. Slayer seems truly ADAMANT that spooky was scum, yet he has so little true evidence. I'm glad you noticed this, and your banter between you and slayer has helped a few ideas develop in my head, but could you please tell us why you think macavenger is scum? You said prior you call the game: macavenger and slayer are scum. That sort of cockiness scares me a bit, but I would really like to hear all of your reasoning for such a claim.

Kairyuu: You have a very aggressive style of playing. I do agree with you in saying haterade's comments are pretty invalid. Previously, I was thinking you, and Slayer to be the mafia. However, your recent changing of vote to slayer totally threw me off guard. It would of been better in the mafia's case to stick to getting spooky lynched, and not risk having a replacement come in that may complicate things. My views towards you have shifted a bit. I view slayer as the most suspicious of the two of you, and was leaning more towards him being scummy than you, your new vote for him has thrown me off guard. I want to know more of your thoughts about slayer, if you don't mind?

Slayer: As stated previously, your certainty that spooky was mafia sent up major red flags, True, he mad several dumb mistakes early on, but instead of investigating this, realizing he was new and this was his first game, you grabbed your rope and kept claiming with certainty he was mafia. I dislike casting votes until I'm fairly certain the person I'm voting for is mafia, so I will cast a

FOS: Slayer

If you have a way of explaining your actions more, then please do, and I will have no qualms retracting my finger, even if you keep your vote on me. Being suspicious is a good thing, but being adamant that someone is mafia, after they posted a total of 8 times, is scummy. Period.

Nto: you seem a bit quiet, would you mind sharing your thoughts with us?

Once again, I'm glad to be in the game. As I said before, I've been reading over the proceedings the past few days, and I apologize if I misread anything.

[Save The Dragons]

STD: You are playing very intelligently.

Thanks. I like your first post, and look forward to more from you.

You seem to have been flying under the radar from suspicion, which in my book, raises a bit of a flag.

Hmm? How have I been under the radar and why is that suspicious?

but could you please tell us why you think macavenger is scum?

I think macavenger is scum because he's posted very little content in a few posts, with several posts that suggest "I'm paying attention, but I'm not actually going to be helpful." Whenever I see the phrase "I'm checking in," I get a little wary of the person, and looking back, I see Macavenger's been trying to seem active without actually being active. Admittedly, a lot of this is gut, but I want to hear from him again so I can see if I'm right or not.

[Kairyuu]

Ok. Apparently I'm not grounded (yay) so I can post. I'll get a condensed version of my long post up soon as well as address Lindisfarne's post. It'll be up in under an hour (I hope).

[Kairyuu]

We'll start with Spooky:

I do not like the concept of replacements. Let me get that out into the open right away. I still find him scummy for my original reasons for voting for him, regardless of the reason he stopped posting. I removed my vote because Slayer made the same scummy mistake for the second time. But I'll get to that in a bit.

Now to Haterade:

STD got most of the points in my argument, but I'll point out what he missed.

This is all fairly obvious stuff everyone should already notice, but just listen to the caution here. He wants to make sure that nobody does things like lynch Spooky, because god forbid Kairyuu thought he was scummy but being scummy I guess isn’t a good enough reason to lynch someone.

“I think spooky is scum, but don’t lynch him.”

That level of caution cannot possibly be genuine. This post is where I think Kairyuu totally slipped up, because I can’t possibly fathom thinking that someone is scummy but not wanting to lynch them under every single circumstance. Hell, I’d be happy at this point if Kairyuu got lynched – I think he’s scum.

See the bold. Don't lynch him until he had a chance to say something. that is what I said. I know that STD pointed this out, but I felt the need to reiterate. Keep in mind Haterade, I was willing to

hammer

him.

This post is just defensive and I don’t really want to respond to it because there’s no content to respond to. Just word after word after word when you could have just said “I disagree” 20 times and we would have left it at that.

I actually laughed when I read this. You actually think I would do that (or that it would be a good idea/the same thing)? If I merely said that I disagreed with you repeatedly, I would be playing like you (not backing anything I say up with anything), and this is not an intelligent play-style.

Your entire argument is based on WIFOM, the entire thing. I see nothing to defend against because it is baseless.

FOS: Haterade

for blatent WIFOM argumentation.

And now onto Slayer:

might it not be better in this case to go ahead and lynch spooky than to bring someone new in?

I'd rather see spooky lynched and be wrong, than be right about spooky and have his replacement throw us off track.

This is you pushing for an immediate lynch before we finally get some response from the potential lynchee. I can't argue against this because I have been pushing for Spooky to die for 3 pages thus far. I still think he was scummy, and advocate major further investigation of Lindisfarne over the course of the rest of the game.

I'm not saying a rush to lynch would be a good thing

Right, sure you're not. This is the major contradiction I voted you for. It makes you look like you are trying to push the lynch as hard as you can but at the same time trying to disassociate yourself from guilt if he ends up getting lynched. Only scum would need to do this. A real townie who is so sure someone is scum would have no problem with having the lynch go through, no matter how it may look. Keep in mind that I was willing to kill Spooky myself with a hammer (vote) until you decided to paint a big red "I am scum" on your forehead.

This is the second time you have tried to detatch yourself from a potential lynch you were part of. I distinctly remember

this

from the Dynamo wagon:

that said I wouldn't want to see anyone get too many votes at this time,
speed lynching is bad for the town. we need alot more discusion before we string anyone up. and besides its not like we're even close to dead line

Same deal here. You attempt to detatch yourself from the wagon, but don't actually back off, as if you hope to say you tried to stop the lynch but people didn't listen to you. I will mention it again. Only scum need to detatch themselves like this.

On an unrelated note, I appreciate the fact that you consider me an experienced player. I am not. This is my first game of mafia ever.

Finally, Lindisfarne:

In the modes of this game I've played in real life, you rarely, if ever lynch on the first day.

Ok. Games on Mafiascum are very different. If you haven't read any, they are quite interesting and I would suggest Newbie 588 if you want to see a perfect example of this. True, they lynched Town on D1 but the lynch gave enough information to kill scum on D2.

Another thing I would like to say: Shame on you townies. Did any of you stop to actually look at spooky's posts? He has 8 posts so far on this website, all from this one game.

And that matters why? It has no relevance to the game we are in. We should be using information we have gathered from the game thread, not from the site activity of a player. For all we knew, he was lurking to avoid responding.

I'm really disliking Kairyuu's game style (he is one of the most aggressive ones here) and have several warning flags over it

Agressiveness is a scumtell now is it? To each their own I suppose, but I consider it necessary to be agressive in order to force scum to slip up due to heavy pressure.

I do agree with you in saying haterade's comments are pretty invalid

Thank you.

Previously, I was thinking you, and Slayer to be the mafia

Interesting theory, but I see you fail to provide a reason for this assumption. I think you might want to explain why I am scummy (besides agressiveness, which in itself isn't exactly a convincing argument).

It would of been better in the mafia's case to stick to getting spooky lynched, and not risk having a replacement come in that may complicate things

You are exactly right. But in my opinion Slayer is more dangerous to the town at the moment. He is giving much more distinct scumtells than Spooky was.

I want to know more of your thoughts about slayer, if you don't mind?

See area regarding Slayer above this.

Ok, that's about it for now. Sorry it took longer than expected, I didn't expect it to end up this extensive.

[Save The Dragons]

@ Kairyuu:

On an unrelated note, I appreciate the fact that you consider me an experienced player. I am not. This is my first game of mafia ever.

You could have fooled me. I assumed Macavenger was the other IC due to his join date, but I acted like a fricken idiot during my first mafia game.

Anyway...

If Spooky/Lindisfarne's scum, who's his partner?

If Slayer's scum, who's his partner?

[Kairyuu]

I was surprised that Slayer thought I was experienced. This is just freaky. All I've been doing is making arguments based on how I think.

But onto the real content.

If Spooky/Lindisfarne is scum, I think Haterade, Dynamo or Nto could be scum as well. Haterade has been adamant about Spooky's towniness the entire game. I mentioned that this was risky if he was scum, but he may have been taking a big risk in the hopes of appearing town. Both of the second two claimed that they agreed with the original argument against Spooky, but both also said they would reserve judgement on him until he could explain. While this may be town concerned over a quicklynch, it may also be scum concerned over pushing a partner closer to a lynch. This is just speculation of course, I have no case other than reserving judgement while agreeing with the argument (Dynamo and Nto) and defending a potential lynchee (Haterade).

If Slayer is scum, I have no leads at the moment. I only just put two and two together that Slayer was acting rather scummy. I will need to reread the entire game in order to find suspicious interactions. I will post more on this bit sometime tomorrow morning.

[Lindisfarne]

If Spooky/Lindisfarne's scum, who's his partner?

If Slayer's scum, who's his partner?

At this point, instead of wondering partners, shouldn't it be figured out if we're scum first? Instead of dragging into other discussions, straining our focus on suspects even more, investigate the matters further. wondering who may or may not be the partner to a person who may or may not be mafia will get you nowhere, and should be saved until we have our first mafioso lynched. One more thing I just recently noticed:

While I'm reluctant to think that Kairyuu is scum, I am suspicious of the other two you mentioned.

Reluctant? Why. This is a game where you need to be suspicious of everyone.

Let me preface this with the fact that since I don't know Kariyuu's alignment, I can only speak on his behalf on points against him that are logical fallacies. I will not try to defend him, I will simple point out where the argument is valid and invalid.

What you did was fully that STD, even though you might not of realized it. A smart townie (which you seem to be playing as) would of kept quiet, and allowed Kairyuu to defend himself, and respond to what (admittedly pointless) points haterade brought up afterwards.

@ Haterade: After Kariyuu tears up your argument against him to shreds, I'm going to go back through and point out any fallacies you made.

The other example. Even though this time you decided to wait for Kairyuu to defend himself. Just seems as if you two are ganging up on people.

In addition:

I should probably clarify by saying your innocence is not yet in question. Even when I direct questions at you, I'm being entirely theoretical.

(this was directed to Kairyuu)
This is MAFIA. You should question EVERYONE's innocence. That is the point. Not questioning someone is utterly idiotic for a townsperson, or a damn spotlight for a goon.

Granted, you two have on occasion questioned a handful of each other's points, but not thoroughly, you have yet to even point a FOS on each other. Granted, at one point, Kairyuu cast a random "emotional" vote on STD, but no real reason was given.

I'm asking everyone to look through the past 5 pages, and read over both STD's and Kairyuu's comments, with the mentality that they are a mafia team. Doesn't it honestly seem like they are setting things up marvelously? I'm not casting a vote or FOS, just attempting to open up people's eyes a bit, and ditch the mentality that you can truly trust anyone in this game (and if you two are townies, then I'm sorry, but to me you made it seem like you were too buddy-buddy.)

Also: yes, to me aggressiveness IS a scum tell. The way I've played, you have two kinds of goons. The ones who are quick to join bandwagons, but otherwise stay quiet, and the ones who are vocal, attempting to become something akin to leading voices in the day's proceedings, the true manipulators, and the real goons to watch out for. You've sparked that "manipulative goon" flag with me.

STD is the same way, except I had gut feeling he was a townie, I'm honestly not sure why, and I have no evidence towards his innocence. However. That fact alone, that I had the innate feeling he was a townie and could be trusted, started to grind against me, and make me caution things. He seems to be a good "manipulative goon" although not as aggressive as Kairyuu.

Take a look at their current trains of thought. Kairyuu has a vote on slayer. STD is flat out claiming Macavenger (whom I really don't see much there to vote for) and slayer are mafia.

I would also like to note again, mentioning the proposed collaboration between STD and Kairyuu is in no way a vote towards either of them, or even a FOS. It is just a few things I've noticed and wanted to bring up, trying to keep everyone with an open mind.

That being said, I'm keeping my FOS on slayer for the time being. I don't care to vote for someone just because they're new to the game and arn't thinking their actions out thorough. Although it's suspicious for him to try and stick to his guns so sharply, with so little evidence, it would also be a dumb move for a goon to do. I don't foresee a new mafia player, playing a goon to act so brashly or obviously.

I would like to bring up the topic of headbuddy. S/he doesn't seem to be very vocal, is it possible to prod them, or is there any update yet if they're still around? I mean, S/he has a total of two posts in this game so far...and we could really use a bit more conversation/fresh trains of thought here.

[Haterade]

Great. So your system for catching mafia gets triggered whenever someone plays as a townie. In your logic, that means you think that every person is suspicious, because townies and mafia act like townies.

No. I explicitly said it wasn't that.

This is where the "Too Townie" tell falls apart.

First of all, it's WIFOM. Isn't that what a mafiaoso would say? Well, isn't that what a town person would say? Yes, so clearly you can't argue the case that "what if he's mafia?" because you have not proven him to be town or scum, you've just basically said he could be either, but ignored the fact that he could be town.

It's not a "too townie" tell. I explicitly said it wasn't that. The thing is, I can't see myself ever thinking that that is what a town person would say. I can only see that as a mafia player trying to act as a town player, not a town player being town. That's what set off my Scum Radar in the first place.

Second of all, if you assume someone's mafia, then of course what they say is going to look scummy.

Third of all, there is no such thing as being too townie. Mafia can't act townier than the town. That's ridiculous. Town, by nature of being town, act like town, however they choose to act. It's like saying that I can act more like Micheal Phelps than Micheal Phelps can.

2 isn't true, and you're not making any sense with 3.

This is clearly not what he said. I really don't know how you missed the words "until he has had a chance to explain himself" but I guess you did some how.

Unrelated to the above:

Also, I didn’t think that Macavenger was scum yet at all, but I just found his little bit interesting. Perhaps scummy.

I find this statement ironic.

I didn't miss it at all, I saw it. That's still the gist of his post

and

why?

[Mastermind of Sin]

For the record, the IC players in this game are Save The Dragons and Macavenger.