Open 211: Tit for Tat v.2 -- Game Over!

[Leafsnail]

1 decent reason and 2 crappy reasons add up to crap reasoning.

In which case... do you have any "strong tells" on other players that would've been better? For that matter, do you have any "strong tells" on me?

That just says to me that you don't care whether we lynch a townie or scum as long as we lynch someone. That just screams scum. Now I am going to step away and reread everything, and come back in with a neutral view of it.

I actually miswrote the quoted question. It was meant to read "It should not be necessary

to state

you support a lynch on a scummy player or oppose a lynch on a towny player".

@Leaf : You want me to correct your misrep of me? Sure. you acused me of ignoring your RVS questions, which is a lie, cause i answered.

You didn't, you dodged the question. And if you thought this was the case, wouldn't that be plain "lying" rather than "misrepping"?

In fact i asked what you meant with those questions, cause i never seen anyone tunnel so hard on a player right off the bat.

I RV'd you and asked a followup... how can that be hard tunnelling? And tunnelling requires ignoring of everyone else. You also didn't tell me why you thought tunnelling would be a scumtell.

no. He already reacted to the votes by laughing about them. There is nothing that makes me think more pressure would give more information. And making the wagon disproportionally big would scare townies of it (completely reasonable, of course).

No, I don't understand what you mean here. A towny shouldn't

really

be affected by the number of people already voting someone. Surely you should try and convince people it's a correct wagon rather than accept an RVS wagon breaking down?

As soon as you find the need to reword his message, you know your argument is not good. You are twisting his words, to make your point clear. The post by jmj is quite normal.

If it's quite normal, would you mind finding other examples of it? I've never seen any town player post like that before.

LEAF. again. jmj has said that if wolf does something scummy, he will vote him. There is no implying, certainly no ''strong implying'' and there is no expectation in that post.

So why does he even say it? And more importantly, why does he take a whole paragraph to say it? Why couldn't he just say "I haven't got a read on wolf yet" instead?

Leaf. That wasn't an answer, fifi gives an opinion. And it seems you can't take criticism.

It's not a criticism, it's an accusation. Deliberately misrepresenting someone is a scummove.

vote Leaf. mostly for the "you could at least pretend to look town", actually. That really doesn't look town to me.

Would you mind explaining how? It's just another way of saying "this is very scummy" for me :/.

[jmj3000]

Leaf, theres something called a meta. Go look at mine, you will see that I don't say things in 1-2 sentences unless I can word it properly to convey what I think properly, unless I am tired. I post long-winded explanations, and I get defensive when people accuse me and start to pressure me. It's just how I play.

[Leafsnail]

I see a meta for long winded posts, but from the town posts of yours I've read (in games coming off your wiki page) it seems more like you like to post a lot of things in one paragraph, not expand one thing to a paragraph. If you look at this, from desert mafia, for instance:

Wow, I think this game will be a load more fun than my newbie game =D. Also, I don't believe in the RVS, so don't expect a vote from me until more hard evidence comes up Smile. At least in this game we all have a sense of humor.

Pretty similar to what you said this game, but with no waffling or overcompensation.

For clarification purposes, the thing I find scummy about fifi's lack of content isn't really the lack of content so much as the refusal to include content or reasoning when posting, ie active lurking.

[jmj3000]

To me, what I said in this game is just another way of saying that. In both games I stated I didn't like/believe in RVS, and in both i said the same thing two different ways: there was nothing to pull evidence from at that time. I think I actually posted around the same time in this game and that game: page 2.

[Leafsnail]

Hmm... the post in question was actually

I am wary of the wolf wagon because to me he hasn't done anything scummy yet. If he starts giving me scum vibes, then I won't be so wary of that wagon and might join it actually.

Which just seemed redundant. Would you mind just explaining why you felt the need to expand on "I don't think he's scum", and also how your meaning differs from

"I don't want to join the bandwagon because I don't think he's scum. But if I start to think he's scum I'll join the bandwagon"

[Looker]

*Yawn*

So is it Leaf or Looker?

On second thought, this is a horrible question.

unvote
vote flinter

[jmj3000]

Hmm... the post in question was actually

I am wary of the wolf wagon because to me he hasn't done anything scummy yet. If he starts giving me scum vibes, then I won't be so wary of that wagon and

might join it actually.

Which just seemed redundant. Would you mind just explaining why you felt the need to expand on "I don't think he's scum", and also how your meaning differs from

"I don't want to join the bandwagon because I don't think he's scum. But if I start to think he's scum

I'll join the bandwagon

"

I've bolded the difference in the two sentences. The reason I felt that I needed to expand on "I don't think he's scum" is because of this question for more info from budja:

@jmj, why are you wary of the wolf wagon then, eh?

[jmj3000]

By the way, the difference in those two sentences is that you omitted that I had said I

might

join the wolf wagon if I found anything scummy.

[flinter]

@budja: I am wary of the wolf wagon because to me he hasn't done anything scummy yet. If he starts giving me scum vibes, then I won't be so wary of that wagon and might join it actually.

JMJ, i'm going to "translate" your statement. I hope you don't mind.

"currently I don't understand why people consider Wolf scummy. That he has so many votes for no real reason that I can see, makes me wary about this wagon. If Wolf is going to act scummy, I'm going to vote him."

please show me where I'm wrong, and how you can ever make this scummy, Leaf.

no. He already reacted to the votes by laughing about them. There is nothing that makes me think more pressure would give more information. And making the wagon disproportionally big would scare townies of it (completely reasonable, of course).

No, I don't understand what you mean here. A towny shouldn't

really

be affected by the number of people already voting someone. Surely you should try and convince people it's a correct wagon rather than accept an RVS wagon breaking down?

He was affected. He clearly was, seen his out of the normal reaction to it. That is exactly the point!

LEAF. again. jmj has said that if wolf does something scummy, he will vote him. There is no implying, certainly no ''strong implying'' and there is no expectation in that post.

So why does he even say it? And more importantly, why does he take a whole paragraph to say it? Why couldn't he just say "I haven't got a read on wolf yet" instead?

why did you use a picture in stead of simply using text for it? no idea. Does it make you scum? didn't think so. But thank you you just admitted you did read too much in JMJ's post. This was a strawman.

vote Leaf. mostly for the "you could at least pretend to look town", actually. That really doesn't look town to me.

Would you mind explaining how? It's just another way of saying "this is very scummy" for me :/.

it seems so, doesn't it? But it isn't. I'll try to explain it:

I think I see this as a scumtell because this is an insulting statement (if the player is scum). Because practically every human is a bit careful with insults, and certainly in a game that is not yet really serious (in the heat of an argument slight insults are used), a statement like this is hard to make.

But if you know the person it town, this all doesn't apply. It isn't an insult when said to a towny. Making that scum would use it more often.

[flinter]

*Yawn*

So is it Leaf or Looker?

On second thought, this is a horrible question.

unvote
vote flinter

Looker, this is not what we agreed on in our quicktopic. You would mislynch people and I would look like I was scumhunting.

[Leafsnail]

I've bolded the difference in the two sentences.

Oh... sorry. Didn't realise that was your problem with it. I'd've thought you'd vote him when you thought he was scummy, but never mind.

The reason I felt that I needed to expand on "I don't think he's scum" is because of this question for more info from budja:

Hmm... actually, that seems to make sense. You seem to be prepared to cooperate with questions (unlike some people >.>) so... I don't regard you as particularly suspicious now, after having reread some of your previous posts. It's probably just my stubborn mindset that kept me accusing you.

please show me where I'm wrong, and how you can ever make this scummy, Leaf.

Seemed like waffling overexplanation to me.

He was affected. He clearly was, seen his out of the normal reaction to it. That is exactly the point!

why did you use a picture in stead of simply using text for it? no idea. Does it make you scum? didn't think so. But thank you you just admitted you did read too much in JMJ's post. This was a strawman.

I probably did, actually. But I'm not sure what you mean by this analogy.

I think I see this as a scumtell because this is an insulting statement (if the player is scum). Because practically every human is a bit careful with insults, and certainly in a game that is not yet really serious (in the heat of an argument slight insults are used), a statement like this is hard to make.

But if you know the person it town, this all doesn't apply. It isn't an insult when said to a towny. Making that scum would use it more often.

Hmm... I sortof see what you mean. I wouldn't really regard it as an insult though - just a way of saying it looks like bad scumplay. Even if you do regard it as an insult, it's against what they're doing, not the person.

[flinter]

the analogy was there to show that something you don't understand (why did he do that), doesn't have to mean he is scum.

to the important point: why did you say that JMJ strongly implied that he was going to vote Wolf? You already admitted that you read too much in JMJ's post, now I would like to know why you are town.


About Wolf: laughing when having some votes on them, is a reaction. A reaction very little players give. The motive for this reaction:

A, he is telling the truth
B, he is scum who knows nothing is really wrong, but that his reaction could matter very much, and he doesn't want to slip. He overthinks the situation, and comes with this. A post a townies don't make very often, but which seems to be townie: he isn't worried by votes, he must be town, right?

no. Wolf is an experienced player, he knows the RVS, and he wouldn't be worried anyway. Why does he want to show us that he isn't worried?

[PaltryExcuse]

Vote Count #4

Leafsnail

(4) - jmj3000, the1fifi, kyle99, flinter

(L-3)

Looker

(2) - kikuchiyo, DizzyIzzyB13

(L-5)

wolframnhart

(2) - Slaxx

(L-6)

the1fifi

(1) - Leafsnail

(L-6)

flinter

(1) - Looker

(L-6)

Not Voting (3) - hewitt, wolframnhart, Budja

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline is on April 1, 2010.

V/LAs: Looker - Until Mar. 17th

[kikuchiyo]

Wow. It's like you read my mind.

unvote, Vote: flinter

[hewitt]

Refusal to answer questions is scummy at any stage. Me disliking his random accusations without backup is not a personal issue.

I don't think he was refusing to answer questions. His "accusations" can barely be stated as such, and it's basically the "I'm going to make this game all about me" mentality that you're pulling here. And I think that's bull crap and I dislike playing with people like that.

I really dislike players who spam the thread with useless quotes and "arguments" and demand that others submit whatever they deem to be content so early in the game. It's players like these who I believe pose a huge imposition on the town later in the game and are nothing but distractions. Leafsnail is not a player I'd like to be stuck in a later situation with.

Vote: Leafsnail

[Leafsnail]

the analogy was there to show that something you don't understand (why did he do that), doesn't have to mean he is scum.

I guess - but it was more like I couldn't understand a town motivation and could understand a scum motivation (trying to cover all bases).

to the important point: why did you say that JMJ strongly implied that he was going to vote Wolf? You already admitted that you read too much in JMJ's post, now I would like to know why you are town.

To me, mentioning the possibility where it was not necessary implied that he would do it, or was at least considering doing it at a later point. Perhaps I was wrong to read this implication, but that's what I saw.

I'm not reall sure if your bit about wolf is directed at me or not, but I can't see what it's referring to.

@hewitt - a policy lynch. Go ahead, say it. You do not care about my alignment at all. Yes, I'm trying a more aggressive opening game, but I'm in no way attempting to make it "all about me".

I'm not a very good player. I know that. But I believe I am definately NOT worth a policy lynch. I would like a detailed explanation from you of how lynching a town me (and, since you've made no actual accusations about my alignment against me, I assume that's what you want to do) would be better than lynching the most scummy player. I would also like to know why, if you insist on pursuing a policy lynch, you feel that lynching a player who's "distracting" is better than one who's posting little to nothing.

[hewitt]

@hewitt - a policy lynch. Go ahead, say it. You do not care about my alignment at all. Yes, I'm trying a more aggressive opening game, but I'm in no way attempting to make it "all about me".

Until I find a scummier player than yeah for right I'm voting you based on a policy lynch. And I disagree that you're not attempting to make the game all about you, because it really looks that way to me. The fact that you'd come right out and say yeah I'm not a very good player bothers me, because that's essentially a little appeal to emotion.

I would like a detailed explanation from you of how lynching a town me (and, since you've made no actual accusations about my alignment against me, I assume that's what you want to do) would be better than lynching the most scummy player.

Since I don't know if you're town or not I think that's an incredibly silly statement. Do you honestly expect me to sit here and think hmmm he's saying he's a town player, so he must be town. It's idiotic. And right now, to me, there is no scummier player.

I would also like to know why, if you insist on pursuing a policy lynch, you feel that lynching a player who's "distracting" is better than one who's posting little to nothing.

Most of the time I believe that distracting players are either A) unintelligent town players or B) scum. I feel like most of the time it probably falls under category A, unfortunately, but I don't think I've ever played with a distracting player who's been beneficial to the town in any way. Usually, they're the cause of mislynches.

[hewitt]

Argh. Paltry can you fix the quotes please?

Done.

[Leafsnail]

Until I find a scummier player than yeah for right I'm voting you based on a policy lynch.

Uh... if you'd vote someone else for being more scummy than me then it's not a policy lynch. Just answer the following question - do you think I'm scum or not?

And I disagree that you're not attempting to make the game all about you, because it really looks that way to me. The fact that you'd come right out and say yeah I'm not a very good player bothers me, because that's essentially a little appeal to emotion.

Well, if I'm being bandwagonned into oblivion, I suppose the game is inclined to centre on me, but that has certainly not been my intention.

Since I don't know if you're town or not I think that's an incredibly silly statement. Do you honestly expect me to sit here and think hmmm he's saying he's a town player, so he must be town. It's idiotic. And right now, to me, there is no scummier player.

You stated earlier in your post that you'd be policy lynching me. You haven't given any reasons why I'm scummy, just reasons why you don't like me. Therefore I assumed and continue to assume that you are pushing a policy lynch against me.

Most of the time I believe that distracting players are either A) unintelligent town players or B) scum. I feel like most of the time it probably falls under category A, unfortunately, but I don't think I've ever played with a distracting player who's been beneficial to the town in any way. Usually, they're the cause of mislynches.

What exactly am I distracting you from? I don't get it. What exactly would you regard as "unintelligant" about my play? And what would be the scum motivation for doing so?

Finally, I don't see how I've "Not beneficial to the town in any way". I've got several reads and got some discussion going.

[kyle99]

@hewitt - a policy lynch. Go ahead, say it. You do not care about my alignment at all. Yes, I'm trying a more aggressive opening game, but I'm in no way attempting to make it "all about me".

Until I find a scummier player than yeah for right I'm voting you based on a policy lynch. And I disagree that you're not attempting to make the game all about you, because it really looks that way to me. The fact that you'd come right out and say yeah I'm not a very good player bothers me, because that's essentially a little appeal to emotion.

This post really bothers me.

unvote, vote: Hewitt

Try to explain Leaf's question without looking so scummy. Posting a lot is not scummy, however, attempting to policy lynching someone who's actively attempting to scumhunt is.

[The1fifi]

I think we already got good info from leaf's wagon indeed, and i don't like hewitt's quick buddying up to me. New wagon, town.

Unvote vote Hewitt

[PaltryExcuse]

Vote Count #5

Leafsnail

(3) - jmj3000, flinter, hewitt

(L-4)

flinter

(2) - Looker, kikuchiyo

(L-5)

hewitt

(2) - kyle99, The1fifi

(L-5)

the1fifi

(1) - Leafsnail

(L-6)

Looker

(1) - DizzyIzzyB13

(L-6)

wolframnhart

(1) - Slaxx

(L-6)

Not Voting (2) - wolframnhart, Budja

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline is on April 1, 2010.

Prodding: Slaxx

V/LAs: Looker - Until Mar. 17th

[flinter]

I dislike the idea of a Hewitt wagon. He's just a nice guy who says what he thinks, and I admire that in such a game. It makes him easier to read.

Now the real scum:

unvote vote Wolframnhart

. Sorry, but lurking isn't going to help you.

[The1fifi]

ACtually, i don't like Kyle's weak reasoning for voting Hewit. Kyle, we could use some more input from you.

Unvote Vote Kyle

[hewitt]

Uh... if you'd vote someone else for being more scummy than me then it's not a policy lynch. Just answer the following question - do you think I'm scum or not?

Leafsnail that doesn't even make sense. I'm voting you right now based on a policy vote right now, but if I find someone to be scummier than you then I will vote for them. That should tell you two things, 1. I think you're the scummiest and 2. I also think you're the weakest player. And it's way too early to be able to tell if you're scum or not, clearly.

Well, if I'm being bandwagonned into oblivion, I suppose the game is inclined to centre on me, but that has certainly not been my intention.

You're not being bandwagoned to oblivion.

You stated earlier in your post that you'd be policy lynching me. You haven't given any reasons why I'm scummy, just reasons why you don't like me. Therefore I assumed and continue to assume that you are pushing a policy lynch against me.

I haven't seen any necessarily scummy actions from anybody else in the game so far but I believe that I have from you, the focus on yourself, the early appeals to emotion, the "I'm town" statements, and the strong offense on players who weren't even doing anything scummy are all things that I find to be little scumtells.

What exactly am I distracting you from? I don't get it. What exactly would you regard as "unintelligant" about my play? And what would be the scum motivation for doing so?

Finally, I don't see how I've "Not beneficial to the town in any way". I've got several reads and got some discussion going.

This is what I don't think you're understanding...just because you've "got reads" and "got some discussion going" does not mean that it was beneficial to progressing the game. I don't believe you're reads were accurate and I don't believe that the discussion you generated was helpful in progressing the game. That is a distraction, that is what I believe to unintelligent play from a town player, and that is exactly what scum does because it throws the town of the track of scum hunting.