Mini 745 - Moving Day Mafia (GAME OVER!)

[Erratus Apathos]

Slightly hypocritical there, as you were being needlessly offensive to dejka earlier (i.e. post 61.) Naturally that doesn't mean to deserve to be flamed yourself.

I admit those remarks were harsh, but I kept them strictly towards his play, not towards him.

As a side note, I think good logic leads to day one mislynches more often than bad logic does, but that does not disprove your point.

If "good logic" leads to frequent mislynches, how is it good?

How does that sound like I'm not trying to get involved? I said what I was thinking, but if that's trying not to get involved then, yes, I guess I'm not.

As of now, the two major people I suspect is:
EA
Jazmynn

You're not participating in the discussion. You're just agreeing with wagons as inconspicuously as possible. Eat rope, scum.

Unvote
Vote: Zer0ph34r

Top of page 5 vote count:

Erratus Apathos 2 (dejkha, ZEEnon)
ZEEnon 2 (Herodotus, Jazzmyn)
ac1983fan 1 (don_johnson)
dejkha 1 (Plonky)
Jazzmyn 1 (q21)
Zer0ph34r 1 (Erratus Apathos)

Not voting: killa seven, ac1983fan, Zer0ph34r, Tovarish

With 12 still packing it takes 7 to lynch.

Note: this vote count should be accurate as of this post.

[ZEEnon]

happy bdayy to Erratus Apathos !
@ everyone: i will post will my
analysis and explanations soon .
(when I get home)

[Herodotus]

If "good logic" leads to frequent mislynches, how is it good?

How does that sound like I'm not trying to get involved? I said what I was thinking, but if that's trying not to get involved then, yes, I guess I'm not.

As of now, the two major people I suspect is:
EA
Jazmynn

You're not participating in the discussion. You're just agreeing with wagons as inconspicuously as possible. Eat rope, scum.

Unvote
Vote: Zer0ph34r

Asked and answered.
In other words, in many games there are players who are going to act scummy to some degree regardless of their role. (I think Zero is an example in this game.) So they are frequently lynched while pro-town. There are plenty of examples, but the ones that come to mind first are ongoing. Here is Newbie 588 (completed) where on day one Mafiamurkrow was lurking and refusing to answer questions. While she was hammered a little early by mistake, it was pretty much inevitable in retrospect.
These aren't necessarily bad lynches - if they're acting anti-town they're almost as bad as scum - but strictly speaking they are mislynches.

To put it another way, the majority of D1 lynches are mislynches, and the majority of D1 lynches are based on good logic under the circumstances. Therefore at least some D1 lynches would have to be mislynches based on good logic, and I'd estimate that many are.

Please let me know whether you'd agree.

Also, congrats on your scumday.

@Killer 7:
Will you explain about almost everyone looking scummy? I'm hoping for a person-by-person list of specific scummy actions.

[Herodotus]

EWBOP:
By more often, I mean in absolute numbers, not relative numbers. I'm saying that if you looked at all past games, you would find more D1 mislynches that were based on good logic than D1 mislynches that were based on bad logic.

[ac1983fan]

vote: jazzmyn

You contribute almost nothing to the discussion, and then make a vote for a silly reason, and no acknowlegement of what is really going on, claiming that you think we are still in the joke vote stage, where anyone who had actually read the thread would know that was not true. This was my initial assesment, which you proved with your response to my & q21's questions... There are much better reasons to be voting for zeenon other than his unorthodox posting style.

[Herodotus]

EBWOP Again:
I meant to say that you answered your own question (with an example) right after asking it. I don't remember what's that's called, but "asked and answered" means something else. Apologies for the poor communication; I should have spent more time editing.

[Tovarish]

Forgive the absence- first birthday things and- well, if you turn on the news you'll find out why things are a little hectic in my neck of the woods.

Right now, I think that Killa seven looks scummy, and I have yet to see a sutiable explanation for his claim that eveybody looks scummy. Despite the bluntness of EA, I think his claim that bandwagons are the "path to victory" was to draw us out of the random voting stage and to start having substantive debate, which is happening. My guess is that Jazzmyn is some kind of Jester- even the dumbest players wouldn't lynch Zeenon on post length- so this doesn't seem particularly pro-town or pro-scum. Just dumb.

[q21]

First: If there's a Jester in a Mini Normal I'm going to be annoyed.

Second: Jazzmyn, since my vote has failed to light a spark of activity under you how about a direct question. Do you have an opinion about who the scum are? (Anyone else is, of course free to answer this.)

[Jazzmyn]

Jazzmyn, since my vote has failed to light a spark of activity under you how about a direct question. Do you have an opinion about who the scum are? (Anyone else is, of course free to answer this.)

Actually, your prompt post came at 2:28 a.m. this morning in my time zone, and I was asleep by then. I am not able to post during weekdays as I work for government and have to abide by its "Internet acceptable use" policy, which says that we are not supposed to use our work computers and Blackberries, etc., for personal use, games, etc. I generally do not get online on weeknights until after 7:00 p.m. my time (although a bit earlier tonight because it's a long weekend here and Monday is a holiday so I left a bit earlier than usual) and then on weekends, I am able to post more than during the week. All of which is to say that I didn't see your post #99 until I logged in tonight.

In addition, this week I had a couple of other games with looming deadlines and such (including one with a deadline in LyLo last night, no less) so those had to take priority.

That said, I have gone through this thread and started my game notes and the players who are giving me the greatest scumvibes at present are dejkha, ZEEnon and, to a lesser extent, ac1983. Dejkha for his weak responses to Erratus after Erratus' "wagons are the path to victory" comment. It's okay to accuse and to seek clarification, of course, but to continue to cling to a notion once a reasonable response and explanation has been provided, and to 'defend' that stance with circular reasoning and other poor reasoning instead of just moving on - on Day 1 in the very early stages - is suspicious to me. ZEEnon for voting Erratus while saying that he didn't have to explain why, and for his poor replies to Erratus' responses to his vote and his follow up posts, including the one in which he says that he thinks it should be obvious why he didn't have to explain his vote. This kind of so-called 'logic' makes my brain hurt. To a lesser extent, ac1983 for the exchange about it being 'bad form' to vote for someone without a lot of evidence in the early going, and the repetitive posts on this same point in #67, 68, 69, 70. There is rarely a lot of evidence as to who is scum in the early going, so his comments on this point and his hesitance to vote for someone who he said he thought was scummy come across as a bit forced. But, as mentioned, I am getting a lesser scum vibe from ac1983 than that which I am currently getting from dejkha and ZEEnon.

Erratus, Q21 and Herodotus strike me as pro-town at present. I'm not getting much of a read on the remaining players as yet, and I haven't played in any previous games with the vast majority of players in this game so I don't have any meta type information that might assist me in knowing their playstyle, etc., so this is all subject to change, of course, as the day progresses.

My guess is that Jazzmyn is some kind of Jester- even the dumbest players wouldn't lynch Zeenon on post length- so this doesn't seem particularly pro-town or pro-scum. Just dumb.

I wasn't "lynching" ZEEnon (or anyone for that matter) based on the weird formatting of his posts. It was a random vote for a nonsensical reason which I thought was apparent, given that I wrote, "That's just weird" which I would think anyone could divine as random. And, no, I am certainly not a Jester.

You contribute almost nothing to the discussion, and then make a vote for a silly reason, and no acknowlegement of what is really going on, claiming that you think we are still in the joke vote stage, where anyone who had actually read the thread would know that was not true. This was my initial assesment, which you proved with your response to my & q21's questions... There are much better reasons to be voting for zeenon other than his unorthodox posting style.

See above. It was a random vote for a nonsensical reason (which is what I thought would make it apparent that it was a random vote). Meta me, if you like, and you will see that I don't cast serious votes without setting out my reasons.

Regards,
Jazz

[q21]

I don't mind if your posts are infrequent, Jazz, if they continue to contain content as above when you do make them then I will probably unvote and move on. For now though its 3 AM... if your post still makes sense in the morning I'll go hunt for a new target.

[ac1983fan]

You contribute almost nothing to the discussion, and then make a vote for a silly reason, and no acknowlegement of what is really going on, claiming that you think we are still in the joke vote stage, where anyone who had actually read the thread would know that was not true. This was my initial assesment, which you proved with your response to my & q21's questions... There are much better reasons to be voting for zeenon other than his unorthodox posting style.

See above. It was a random vote for a nonsensical reason (which is what I thought would make it apparent that it was a random vote). Meta me, if you like, and you will see that I don't cast serious votes without setting out my reasons.

Yes, I understood that it was somewhat random, but we're clearly past that point in the game.

[Zer0ph34r]

I agreed with one "wagon". No question was directed at me specifically and I find it kind of stupid to base a vote on one thing I've done that you find suspicious. Like myself, you should really hold back on a vote until you have better info to go on. I admit, I don't post that much, but I do read EVERYTHING. And if you want, I will answer a question if it is directed at me specifically.

And, btw, why would anyone act scummy? And how am I the prime example of this game? What have I done that was even remotely scummy?

[Tovarish]

Mod- Prod killa seven?

[q21]

Read this post and although I know the questions at the end of it aren't directed at me I thought I'd read through the thread again and see if I could find some answers since Zer0ph34r hadn't really made much impression on me yet.

I agreed with one "wagon". No question was directed at me specifically and I find it kind of stupid to base a vote on one thing I've done that you find suspicious. Like myself, you should really hold back on a vote until you have better info to go on. I admit, I don't post that much, but I do read EVERYTHING. And if you want, I will answer a question if it is directed at me specifically.

And, btw, why would anyone act scummy? And how am I the prime example of this game? What have I done that was even remotely scummy?

My first comment/question pertains to the opening paragraph. What good does keeping you vote to yourself do? This is then compounded by the fact that you don't post very often and when you do post you rarely say much. In the end you contribute little to the game. Reading everything only helps you and if you are town then this game is not an individual effort. You like direct questions? Who do you think is scum and why?

For the three questions at the end.

1. Because they're scum. Happens amazingly often and even the best players subconsciously play differently when they're scum.
2. You're not. You're a prime example of a non-committal lurker.
3. By the same token, what have you done to help the town.

While reading through this post, from ac1983fan caught my attention.

Wagons are the path to victory for scum. Especially when you're on that wagon just because you can be.

Interesting statement, this. Kindly explain.

Oh, and:

unvote, vote: dejkha

unvote

FOS: Plonky

I have no issue with him asking to explain himself, but voting him? I know we're still early on, but you unvoted just to vote for him on one thing he said in response to what I would consider pretty scummy behavior, regardless of when it happens.

It gives me the feeling that ac1983fan is scum with EA or plonky - and it is just a feeling for now. He only FoSs plonky and although he decries EA's action as scummy (least that seems to be what he was talking about) he never actually questions, FoSs or votes EA.

Either he's targeting plonky and ignoring EA because he doesn't want to implicate his scum buddy. Would explain EA pointing this out later as that kind of thing could be uncomfortable if one of them flips scum later. Granted EAtown also has reason to do this, and I have no other reason to suspect him at all.

The other option is that he's targeting Plonky because he knows he's scum and leaving EA alone because he knows EA's town. Bussing Plonky, in other words.

The fact that he uses an FoS instead of a vote indicates extreme care to not contradict himself (most people would have voted Plonky at this point and be done with it) and possibly an unwillingness to vote for his scumbuddy.

In the end my I don't get any conclusion on EA and Plonky from this post, but it certainly makes me suspicious of acfan.

Unvote, Vote ac1983fan

Because personally I have no qualms throwing my vote where I think it best belongs.

[ac1983fan]

While reading through this post, from ac1983fan caught my attention.

Wagons are the path to victory for scum. Especially when you're on that wagon just because you can be.

Interesting statement, this. Kindly explain.

Oh, and:

unvote, vote: dejkha

unvote

FOS: Plonky

I have no issue with him asking to explain himself, but voting him? I know we're still early on, but you unvoted just to vote for him on one thing he said in response to what I would consider pretty scummy behavior, regardless of when it happens.

It gives me the feeling that ac1983fan is scum with EA or plonky - and it is just a feeling for now. He only FoSs plonky and although he decries EA's action as scummy (least that seems to be what he was talking about) he never actually questions, FoSs or votes EA.

Either he's targeting plonky and ignoring EA because he doesn't want to implicate his scum buddy. Would explain EA pointing this out later as that kind of thing could be uncomfortable if one of them flips scum later. Granted EAtown also has reason to do this, and I have no other reason to suspect him at all.

The other option is that he's targeting Plonky because he knows he's scum and leaving EA alone because he knows EA's town. Bussing Plonky, in other words.

The fact that he uses an FoS instead of a vote indicates extreme care to not contradict himself (most people would have voted Plonky at this point and be done with it) and possibly an unwillingness to vote for his scumbuddy.

In the end my I don't get any conclusion on EA and Plonky from this post, but it certainly makes me suspicious of acfan.

Unvote, Vote ac1983fan

Because personally I have no qualms throwing my vote where I think it best belongs.

You are as far off as possible with this post. I am not plonky's scumbuddy, and I have no clue as to who is town and who is not... I haven't played mafia in a long time, but I know that jumping to vote people quickly has won me games as scum and lost me games as town, so I'm trying to play carefully in terms of voting. In fact, I won my first game as scum because of basically quickly voting to lynch people. You're drawing too many assumptions from one post, I think.

[q21]

At this point in the game there isn't much to go on other than assumptions. They will be refined, clarified, proved or rejected as the game goes on and more evidence comes to light - but at this point after having just read through the thread I saw nothing that screamed scum at me so I went with something that felt suspicious.

Also - I've won games as town by vote hopping like a madman.

[ac1983fan]

unvote

Jazzmyn, after rereading your latest post, you obviously have real reasons to be suspicious of ZEEnon; why you didn't post them as a response to my original question, I don't know...

Also, q21, are you just going to vote everyone and keep your vote on them until either they make themselves seem less scummy or somebody else does something more scummy? cause you've pretty much voted for everybody who's been posting regularly in this game...

[don_johnson]

You are as far off as possible with this post. I am not plonky's scumbuddy, and I have no clue as to who is town and who is not... I haven't played mafia in a long time, but I know that jumping to vote people quickly has won me games as scum and lost me games as town, so I'm trying to play carefully in terms of voting. In fact, I won my first game as scum because of basically quickly voting to lynch people. You're drawing too many assumptions from one post, I think.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ WIFOM defense.

[ac1983fan]

You are as far off as possible with this post. I am not plonky's scumbuddy, and I have no clue as to who is town and who is not... I haven't played mafia in a long time, but I know that jumping to vote people quickly has won me games as scum and lost me games as town, so I'm trying to play carefully in terms of voting. In fact, I won my first game as scum because of basically quickly voting to lynch people. You're drawing too many assumptions from one post, I think.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ WIFOM defense.

How so?

[don_johnson]

You are as far off as possible with this post. I am not plonky's scumbuddy, and I have no clue as to who is town and who is not...

I haven't played mafia in a long time, but I know that jumping to vote people quickly has won me games as scum and lost me games as town, so I'm trying to play carefully in terms of voting.

In fact, I won my first game as scum because of basically quickly voting to lynch people. You're drawing too many assumptions from one post, I think.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ WIFOM defense.

How so?

its textbook. "i am not plonky's scumbuddy" is a meaningless statement. statements such as that are a waste of space. how you would or would not act

if

you were mafia

is

wifom. don't get me wrong, the "i want to be careful with my vote" is a reasonable pont to make, but venturing into "if i were scum" territory is unproductive. and that appears(to me) what you have done here.

[ac1983fan]

You are as far off as possible with this post. I am not plonky's scumbuddy, and I have no clue as to who is town and who is not...

I haven't played mafia in a long time, but I know that jumping to vote people quickly has won me games as scum and lost me games as town, so I'm trying to play carefully in terms of voting.

In fact, I won my first game as scum because of basically quickly voting to lynch people. You're drawing too many assumptions from one post, I think.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ WIFOM defense.

How so?

its textbook. "i am not plonky's scumbuddy" is a meaningless statement. statements such as that are a waste of space. how you would or would not act

if

you were mafia

is

wifom. don't get me wrong, the "i want to be careful with my vote" is a reasonable pont to make, but venturing into "if i were scum" territory is unproductive. and that appears(to me) what you have done here.

That wasn't my intention.

[Zer0ph34r]

I never said keeping you vote to yourself was a good idea, I said holding back on voting, meaning don't vote right away, get info first, then vote.

I think that Jazmynn is scum because of her constant attempt of trying to feel/look like she's in power and defensiveness. Obviously being defensive isn't bad, but I think it's something to find suspicious because she never says when she thinks she's wrong or made a mistake.

Honestly, I have not done anything to help the town, so I will try to work on that, but quite frankly, I find it to be better if I get info for myself first, take it in and understand it, and then I will try to explain how I feel about something or how I think others should take it.

[ZEEnon]

sorry everyone, i got lazy last night after coming home !

At this point, though, Zeenon is more interesting to me. Two OMGUS votes against random votes? And calling something obvious that isn't?

i thought it was kind of obvious
my first vote was just a joke .. i guess not .

Also, if you genuinely suspect someone, as you seem to with you EA vote you do need to explain yourself.

WOAH, i totally missed this post for some reason .
i never said i genuinely suspected anyone,
don't place words in my mouth .
i said that bandwaggoning is suspicious.
would you had rather me leave
my vote on the random person in the beginning,
or place my vote on someone i suspect a

little

?

zeenon: what

is

your deal?

i'm not sure what this
question is supposed to mean,
care to explain ?

On page 2, what could he have asked you? And if you would agree that there were no meaningful questions, why did you decide he was mafia? You did say "this quote seems exceptionally scummy," which implies either confidence or overstatement.

i agree, there wasn't much he could ask.
just because you place a vote on someone,
doesn't necessarily mean that you decide
they are mafia. there sure are a lot of
people in this game that assume things .
i voted for him because, as stated about twice before,
it's better to have one peice of evidence,
rather than a

clearly random

vote for Plonky.

To put it another way, the majority of D1 lynches are mislynches, and the majority of D1 lynches are based on good logic under the circumstances.

QFT

ZEEnon for voting Erratus while saying that he didn't have to explain why

, and for his poor replies to Erratus' responses to his vote and his follow up posts,

including the one in which he says that he thinks it should be obvious why he didn't have to explain his vote

. This kind of so-called 'logic' makes my brain hurt.

the underlined part is the exact same thing.
were you trying to make it seem like
there was more evidence against me?
i do realize that i should have explained
since a lot of you obviously didn't see
the reason why i voted for him,
which i explained later on anyways .

I wasn't "lynching" ZEEnon (or anyone for that matter) based on the weird formatting of his posts. It was a random vote for a nonsensical reason which I thought was apparent, given that I wrote, "That's just weird" which I would think anyone could divine as random. And, no, I am certainly not a Jester.

this is true. i could tell that it was a random vote,
and as such, i replied in a sarcastic way.

its textbook. "i am not plonky's scumbuddy" is a meaningless statement. statements such as that are a waste of space. how you would or would not act

if

you were mafia

is

wifom. don't get me wrong, the "i want to be careful with my vote" is a reasonable pont to make, but venturing into "if i were scum" territory is unproductive. and that appears(to me) what you have done here.

QFT. saved me time.

[ac1983fan]

Alright, I've quickly read through everybody's posts in the thread so far. Nobody really seems too suspicious to me. I guess I'll hold off on voting until I get back on tuesday.

[don_johnson]

Alright, I've quickly read through everybody's posts in the thread so far. Nobody really seems too suspicious to me. I guess I'll hold off on voting until I get back on tuesday.

vote: ac1983fan

if you can't find scum its because you are. try harder.